Talk:God Save the King

'Peace' version

Relating to alternate verses, I happen to know a variation to the third verse of the 'Peace' version. 'One Empire wide as earth, of many a race and birth, as ocean wide, brothers in war and peace, brothers that war may cease, God who hath giv'n increase, still guard and guide'. No idea where I learnt it, but it must have had status at some point or other. Perhaps it was sung at school. This article mentions it, I see: http://www.kingscoronation.co.uk/. 90.193.97.18 (talk) 16:48, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Second verse

The second verse ('O Lord our God arise') was, I'm sure, officially dropped around 1990, and is not mentioned on the official British monarchy website. Can anyone find a citation for this? Wilus (talk) 06:42, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Typo

Can anyone fix "plased" without getting it reverted back to the incorrect spelling? I can't. 81.187.27.126 (talk) 02:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Done. ^_^ Silverseren^C 03:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks.81.187.27.126 (talk) 03:43, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Full version

Wondering whether someone can add the full original version, which goes as follows:

God save our gracious Queen, Long live our noble Queen, God save the Queen! Send her victorious, Happy and Glorious, Long to reign over us; God save the Queen.

O Lord our God arise, Scatter her enemies And make them fall; Confound their politics, Frustrate their knavish tricks, On Thee our hopes we fix, Oh, save us all.

Thy choicest gifts in store On her be pleased to pour; Long may she reign; May she defend our laws, And ever give us cause To sing with heart and voice, God save the Queen.

Not in this land alone, But be God's mercies known, From shore to shore! Lord make the nations see, That men should brothers be, And form one family, The wide world over

From every latent foe, From the assassins blow, God save the Queen. O'er her thine arm extend, For Britain's sake defend, Our mother, prince, and friend, God save the Queen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.2.68.85 (talk) 22:31, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

What exactly constitutes the "full version" is somewhat open to debate. The version that you are quoting here consists of :

• Verses 1 to 3 are from the original 1745 version (with the lyrics having been modified very slightly when the tradition that all monarchs were called "George" died out).
• Your verse 4 ("Not [sic] in this land alone...") is a verse taken from William Hixton's attempt to rewrite the whole thing, in 1836.
• Your verse 5 dates, I believe, from 1800, when the King (George III) was fired at by a pistol-wielding assailant at Drury Lane Theatre. I haven't seen any evidence that this verse has had any currency since the death of George III, but maybe someone can point out a more modern revival of the verse. Bluewave (talk) 11:03, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

The two extra verses should included in full though. At present the former is only mentioned as an aside in reference to New Zealand and not quoted in full; the latter is missing altogether. --Jubilee♫clipman 00:48, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Early version

Shouldn't the musical example be replaced with the standard modern version as played by the bands of the Queen's Division? Given that this ancient version appears in the info box, it gives the impression of being the "real" version (whatever that is). It is noticeably different from the modern standard version(s) we all know. Even Beethoven's version is closer to the one we all tend to sing in the Queen's presence. We could even pinch the example used in My Country, 'Tis of Thee and modify it with the words we use in the UK... Also read this line in the article: "The standard version of the melody is still that of the original...". Not the one I'm looking at in the infobox! They are very different, particularly in the first line. In fact, the melody has undergone several changes and reworkings in the past. Even now, there are melismas which sometimes appear and sometimes don't, especially in the last couple of bars. Even these are differently applied: E-C (duplet for God) B (save) A (the) G (king/queen) or E-D-C (triplet for God) B (save) etc; even the gets an extra note sometimes (A-G then the final G). I would also like to see the "...Military Band version, usually played in march time..." somewhere, at least as a MIDI. The mind boggles to think of the tune in 4/4 or 2/4! (Or was it in 6/8 but played faster? Hmm... Perhaps not!) --Jubilee♫clipman 00:33, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Who is William Hixton?

This article references several times the alternative lyric written by William Hixton, however no details about the reason of writing the alternation lyric(it seems for republicans) and the profile of the author are given. Could anybody knowing this part complement this article with the details? --128.250.29.174 (talk) 02:14, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

The section "Alternative UK versions" tries to do this. It mentions the fact that there was "some lively debate" about the song. Also that "verse two was considered to be slightly offensive" and that the "theology was somewhat dubious". It mentions various people who tried to rewrite the song, including Hixton. If you follow the link to Hixton, his biography is very incomplete, and I would suggest that is the area most in need of work (but on that page rather than the GStQ page). Bluewave (talk) 09:17, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Any Relations to the American Version

I noticed that "My Country Tis of thee" has the same tune, but it is not mentioned here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fuzzyhair2 (talk • contribs) 21:32, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Try the "Use elsewhere" section. Bluewave (talk) 22:17, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

‘Rebellious Scots’ will remain crushed in God Save the Queen

• The UK government has rejected calls to remove an “anti-Scottish” verse from the British National Anthem to make it more inclusive. Lord Goldsmith, the former attorney general who led Gordon Brown’s review of British citizenship, had suggested that a verse calling for “rebellious Scots” to be crushed ought to be rewritten, Sunday Times, 14 Feb 2010

--Mais oui! (talk) 06:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like Lord Goldsmith needs to check his facts! Bluewave (talk) 09:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

America The Beautiful is different tune

The statement "America the Beautiful, uses the exact same song only with changed lyrics." is completely wrong. "America the Beautiful" is in 4/4 time and starts off with the notes G | G E E G | G D D E | F G A B | G. The confusion probably lies in the fact that "My Country 'Tis of Thee" is often referred to simply as "America". CharlesTheBold (talk) 21:58, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Public events in Canada

User:UrbanNerd objects to the sentence "and ['God Save the Queen'] is sometimes played and/or sung together with the national anthem, 'O Canada', at public events." His reasoning for this was that, in his personal experience, "i have never (not even once) ever heard GSTQ played at any public event with O Canada, ever." No sources to support this, just hearsay. I found the following links that show "God Save the Queen" played at the same event as "O Canada":

• [1] "Master of Ceremonies to greet and introduce O Canada... Master of Ceremonies asks all to stand and join in singing of God Save the Queen..."
• [2] "The crowd sang the national anthem O Canada followed by the royal anthem God Save the Queen..."
• [3] "1057.20 O Canada... 1130.15 GOD SAVE THE QUEEN..."
• [4] "God Save the Queen - Royal Newfoundland Regiment... O Canada - Royal Newfoundland Regiment..."
• [5] "O Canada... was sung and of course, God Save the Queen."
• [6] "Remembrance Day Music: 'O Canada'... 'God Save The Queen'."
• [7] "...[T]he playing of O Canada, God Save the Queen..."
• [8] "ORDER OF SERVICE: O' CANADA... 'GOD SAVE THE QUEEN'..."
• [9] "'O Canada' must be played and sung at the commencement of major or significant school sponsored assemblies and ceremonies... 'God Save the Queen' may be played and sung to close a program."
• [10] "O Canada... God Save the Queen..."

However, UrbanNerd refuses to recognise these as supporting sources because the events they're related to aren't, in his personal definition, public. I found the definition of "public" to be:

Main Entry: 1pub·lic

6 a : accessible to or shared by all members of the community [11]

But, UrbanNerd maintains this does not apply to any event organised by a legion or government body, even when the public is free to attend. I wonder if others could weigh in on this with their take on the matter. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 19:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

wow nice job. Plenty of sources there to justify the sentence remaining in the article. I must confess reading some of those documents makes me rather jealous. National anthems and flags in schools?, thats pretty rare here, our lefties dont like any form of patriotism. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:56, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Wow, Miesianiacal again you have "forgotten" relevant arguments and facts. You seem to "avoid" info that doesn't promote your views. My comments were:
I wouldn't consider any of the links you provided public. Every one of them is military or policing related. With the exception of the CBE which does not play it but states a law that it "may" be played. A public event should be "public", not military affiliated. Plus most of the veterans fought before O'Canada was even created, thus GSTQ was the unofficial anthem. Perhaps stating that it is sometimes played with O'Canada at military affiliated events would clarify it. Or leave it out completely as I would prefer. It is up to you. UrbanNerd (talk) 18:00, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

• Link 1 - Alberta Police and Peace Officers’ Memorial Day Ceremony - Govenment ceremony
• Link 2 - Held on February 15, 1965 (before O'Canada was Canada's legal anthem)
• Link 3 - The Royal Canadian Legion Dominion Command
• Link 4 - Newfoundland & Labrador Police and Peace Officers' Memorial Parade
• Link 5 - WW2 Memorial by members of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment
• Link 6 - Royal Canadian Naval Association Burlington Branch monument unveiling
• Link 7 - Annual Veterans' Service in honour of Veterans and peacekeepers
• Link 8 - South Vancouver Veteran's Council Remembrance Day March
• Link 9 - Calgary Board of Education - "God Save the Queen" may be played and sung to close a program
• Link 10- Canadian Navy & The Black Cultural Society for Nova Scotia.

Saying that is sometimes played at public events with O Canada is misleading. It is never played at public events unless it has military or other "armed forces" affiliation. The statement was misleading, period. It needs to be restated to offer no suggestions that regular public events in Canada play it, or leave it out completely. When was the last time it was played at a sporting event ? The 1966 Winnipeg amateur bowling championship ? UrbanNerd (talk) 20:16, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

To repeat myself from above: "UrbanNerd refuses to recognise these as supporting sources because the events they're related to aren't, in his personal definition, public." We are here to establish whether or not they are indeed public events, meaning the sources support the claim. Please avoid making personal comments about other users. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 20:30, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Can "military or other "armed forces" affiliation" events not be considered Public events if they take place in public? BritishWatcher (talk) 20:32, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I have already offered a viable solution. Stating that GSTQ is sometimes played at public events is plain misleading. Military events seem to be the only one's to play it within the last 40 years. What if it went: "it is sometimes played along with O Canada at military events". Or something to that affect. You seem to be more focused on promoting the use in Canada than coming up with a solution.

• Is it played at sporting events ? No
• Is it played at schools ? No (although "allowed" in Alberta)
• Is it played any non military events ? No

It only makes sense that if it is to be included to clearly state it is (sometimes) played at (some) military and armed forces events. UrbanNerd (talk) 21:48, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

You're misrepresenting the sources. Some are for events related to legions. One is for the first flying of the national flag. One is for the Black Cultural Society of Nova Scotia. Others are for police ceremonies. And you still avoid the point of this discussion, which is: Are events to which the public is invited - regardless of the host organisation - considered public events. Your list above is merely OR. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 22:20, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

False, they are all military and police events in the refs. No OR involved here. Find me proof the GSTQ is played at non-military events. UrbanNerd (talk) 22:46, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I think you have the Black Cultural Society of Nova Scotia mixed up with the Black Panthers. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 23:09, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Did you read your own reference ? It's the Black Cultural Society of Nova Scotia and the Royal Canadian Navy celebration of William Hall (VC). The first black person to get the victoria cross. And someone who fought before Canada or O Canada officially existed. UrbanNerd (talk) 01:13, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Yea, Black Cultural Society of Nova Scotia. Not military. But, regardless, it's only you who's created this imaginary stipulation that any event organised by any group remotely related to the government is not a public event, even if the public is part of the event. That's WP:OR; unless you can prove your claim to be true. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 01:24, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

The song is only played at events with military or armed forces affiliation. If you can prove otherwise be my guest. Non military events in Canada do not play GSTQ, period. UrbanNerd (talk) 03:11, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

So, in other words, you've no way at all of supporting your assertion that an event organised by the military, a government department, a legion, or the like, is not a public event, even when the public is welcome to participate. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:08, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

"The song is only played at events with military or armed forces affiliation" Some of those military events are public events, there for the wording saying GSTQ is sometimes played with O Canada is not inaccurate. Maybe we should try and agree a new sentence which goes into more detail about when it may be used rather than going round in circles about the previous wording. BritishWatcher (talk) 07:16, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

That is what I have been suggesting. Maybe something like: "it is sometimes played along with O Canada at military events". Or something to that affect. UrbanNerd (talk) 13:13, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Yea, I've absolutely no objections to tweaking the wording or going into more detail. But there's absolutely no reason to adhere to UrbanNerd's made up definition of a public event. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:08, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

WW2 was a "public event" by your definition. Doesn't mean you should say "Sometimes bomb are dropped on the public in the streets of London". Leaving the statement open to interpretation like that would cause confusion. But that aside we should be coming up with a suitable explanation. I vote, "it is sometimes played along with O Canada at military events". UrbanNerd (talk) 14:30, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not my definition. It's the dictionary's. (Perhaps you should write Webster's with your odd WWII analogy.) Yours, on the other hand, so far still seems entirely made up, which means having the article imply that the royal and national anthems are only ever heard together at military events is just not on. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:35, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Can we stop the personal attacks and get on with a solution. Thanks. UrbanNerd (talk) 14:57, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Calling your analgoy odd is not calling you odd. So, perhaps we should stop with the false accusaions of personal attack and get on with a solution. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:58, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I see that though it is UrbanNerd doing all the objecting, it's me who's to find the solution; to fixing a sentence that's been as it was for a long time and wasn't originally inserted by me, ironically. Of course, as it was long-standing in the article, it should, per guidelines, stay as is until he's found a consensus to remove it; but, apparently repeatedly deleting it seems more appealing to him.

Regardless, I've reworded the sentence to align literally with what the sources state. I trust UrbanNerd has no more objections and, if he does, will discuss them here rather than deleting again. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:12, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

You are ridiculous. If you think smug, adolescent remarks are "finding a solution" you are incorrect yet again. I offered a solution and all you could do is compete for the last unrelated comment like a child on the playground. The edited text although still skewed to your pov will do. Goodbye UrbanNerd (talk) 20:24, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

lmao i thought Miesianiacal's comments were very reasonable considering what has taken place. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:29, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

God Save the Queen was played during the conclusion of my high school graduation ceremony. Maybe that means little, but surely it's proof enough that it can and HAS been used for non-military affairs. Or rather, I should say that it's proof enough that it is in use if the criteria that it "isn't in use" is that some random wiki user simply hasn't "heard" it play often enough. I graduated in 2009, by the way, from a public high school in Southern Ontario in Dundas. Druid126 (talk) 02:54, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

In Wales/ yng nghymru

Here in Wales, we regard mae hen wlad fy nhadau as our national anthem, and see God Save The Queen as the English one. The United Kingdom is a made up of Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland ; and they should all be seen equally. If not, it should be called "England and Friends", —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.182.7 (talk) 19:56, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

God save the Queen is the national anthem of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Wales is part of the United Kingdom and will continue to be, there for this anthem is your anthem. Wales has its own separate anthem that you mention but England and Northern Ireland simply use God save the Queen because they choose not to adopt their own separate ones.

If you have learned that God save the Queen is simply the English national anthem then you are wrong. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:05, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Wrong citation interesting nonetheless

While the citation about the anal fistula (now removed) to Patricia Ranum's excellent article does mention Charpentier, it does not establish that the Marquise de Créquy said anything about an anal fistula. It's actually an article about Charpentier's work, which was not done at the court of Louis XIV. Charpentier was instead the court musician of another noble court - that of Mlle de Guise, a sovereign princess of the house of Lorraine. Nevertheless, there's a wealth of information about Charpentier and French music of the 17th century in that article. There was an anal fistula, Charpentier did perform, but composed no special work for that fête, and the actual work performed is unknown.--LeValley 22:33, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

It is also not the case that Charpentier's musical manuscripts of the 17th century contain the God Save the King/Queen tune, at least not according to Ranum or her main source, Hitchcock. If anyone can find (his musical manuscripts are in the National Archives in Paris) the actual melody or anything like them in Charpentier's work, that would be the proper citation (or find some scholar, like Ranum, who has found that manuscript). Since Ranum has clearly combed those archives for her work and did not find it, it is wrong to cite her as the source of this information. In short, yes Charpentier composed music that was eventually played to celebrate the King's health. Did he compose God Save the King/Queen? Unknown. Which thing was played that day? Unknown.--LeValley 23:09, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

It remains confusing how Scholes, an expert on music history, could also be an expert on Mme de Créquy, whose work is generally regarded as genuine (but edited for publication in 1850). Further, Mme de Créquy's passage on the composition of the song mentions not Charpentier but Lully as the composer (so if Scholes is arguing against her saying that Charpentier wrote it, he ought to have read her manuscript - Chapter IV, last three paragraphs. She clearly states its Lully - but in her version, there's no mention of WHICH party of Louis XIV it was played (other scholars place the religious service at the old Abbey of Montmartre, the secular service at city hall, and the party at the Luxembourg Palace, whereas de Créquy mentions that the song debuted at Saint-Cyr. De Créquy also states that the song was written to accompany Louis XIV's entry into his chapel at St Germain en Laye, nothing to do with any anal fistula, as far as I can tell. She does insist that the song is French and Handel stole it, that much is true about her. I've removed this bit:

Scholes points out gross errors of date which render these claims untenable, and they have been ascribed to a 19th-century forgery, the Souvenirs of the Marquise de Créquy. because Scholes does not in fact take on the task of establishing the fakery of de Créquy, perhaps Scholes merely points out the plagiarism by Handel is unlikely. I believe that's clear from context, but hard as I try, I can't find a citation from Scholes on the subject. That is the citation that's needed to restore this claim to the article. Scholes, anyone? LeValley 23:43, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

So-called Welsh version

Please delete this farcical GoogleTranslation added by CalicoCatLover. It's pure gobbledegook (Confirmation: here!). 80.42.53.200 (talk) 17:03, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I've deleted it. I work on cy:, where it has been added twice, and reverted both times, as it makes no sense to fluent speakers. Paul-L (talk) 18:36, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I suspect that the other non-English versions may be similar. Somebody has pointed out concerns about the Scots version (below) and I've already deleted an unsourced so-called "full" version. Bluewave (talk) 22:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

"Full" version?

I have just deleted a so-called "full version" as this is unsourced. I very much doubt if there is such a thing as a full version, but some reliable sources would be needed to establish such a thing. The deleted example included the Marshall Wade verse (why that and not the Jacobite verse?). It also included one verse from the Hixton version (why not all of them?) but omitted the anti-French verse. The reality is that over the song's history (as stated in the article) numerous attempts have been made to add/remove/rewrite/replace verses and to rewrite the whole thing. So I don't think we can ever have a full version.

On a similar point, there are no citations for the translations into other languages. Do these versions have citable sources, please? If not, they should be deleted. Bluewave (talk) 10:43, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Scots' Version a Joke?

Serious question here, been followed links around after having an urge to look up the the German ship the "Admiral Graf Spee", and through following links about navies, ended up here. After a quick glance to check the lyrics of the anthem, noticed the Scottish one, and it sorta gave me the impression that it was a mockery. Not sure if it's in fact correct, or just phonetic with the Scottish language (possibly still a mockery?). Anyways, just thought I'd bring this up for you wiki-wizards to clarify. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.251.3 (talk) 20:54, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The only way we can tell if it's authentic is if someone provides a citation and readers can check on the source. This is why Wikipedia insists that the content is referenced to reliable sources. I pointed out (above) this lack of sources for some of the non-English versions and was giving anyone who cared about them a chance to produce a reference before I delete them. Bluewave (talk) 10:57, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Considering how the scots feel about the bloody english rule, the mockery form is probably the de facto anthem. (When Hungary was under military rule by Habsburg-Austria, hungarian people sang the list of playing card faces back and forth to the tune of "Gott erhalte Franz der Kaiser" as a show of passive resistance.) Hopefully Scotland will be a fully independent republic soon, alongside Palestine! 82.131.210.163 (talk) 20:47, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Fanfare

The article has no mention of the fanfare sometimes performed by heralds immediately before God Save the Queen, usually when the Queen herself is present. An example here. I have a vague recollection it was composed by William Walton for the coronation in 1953 but I could be wrong. 121.45.200.207 (talk) 13:42, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Team England - Commonwealth games

It is worth noting that team England only used Jeruselem in the 2010 Commonwealth games. In all games before this they used Land of Hope and Glory.

The change was after a vote on the team England web site but the poll attracted less than 100 votes in total. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.170.28 (talk) 21:06, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Gentle Giant

I'm a little shy to add this information, but I remember that the seventh track of Gentle Giant's first record ended with a cover of their national Hymn its title is The Queen . - εΔω 16:34, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The monarch does not sing

I observed that Her Majesty did not sing the song during the wedding of Prince William. Prince Phillip did. I assume the protocol is that the reigning monarch does not sing that song. Group29 (talk) 16:04, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Song name

A claim was made in the lead that the song's actual and permanent title is "God Save the King" and to call it "God save the Queen" is merely " colloquial". This link was used as a supporting citation; however, it makes no similar assertion. The Canadian government, for example, officially calls the song "God Save the Queen". --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:43, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

My edits that listed "God Save the King" as the official name in the lead sentence was only to prevent IPs and new users from marking the "God Save the Queen" name as a "mistake"[12] or "mis-named".[13] I admit that I may have misread that citation. I have no problems with the current version now. Cheers. Zzyzx11 (talk) 17:48, 18 February 2012 (UTC)