Talk:Taiwan

Taiwanese culture

Readin says "Taiwanese" is used culturally. What was "Taiwanese" culture during the time that Eisenhower visited Taipei? What is "Taiwanese" culture now? Is it inclusive of the Hakka? Is it inclusive of the mainlanders? Why not make the captions for those pictures complete NPOV by not making any reference to "Taiwanese" or "Chinese"? It's enough to say that Eisenhower waved to crowds in Taipei and Wu San-liang, a non-Kuomingtang politician won the elections. What purpose does it serve to inject "Taiwanese" (or "Chinese" for that matter, e.g. "Eisenhower waved to Chinese crowds in Taipei") in the picture? NPOV would be to not address it at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.140 (talk) 21:11, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Although I am not bothered by that caption, removing descriptors altogether is more concise and not vague, as it is clearly written that the crowds are in Taipei. GotR ^Talk 21:25, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I can live with removing the "Taiwanese" from the photo caption. However it is useful to know that Su was Taiwanese as it wasn't just unusual to have a non-KMT politician at that time, it was also unusual to have a Taiwanese politician at that time. I have to admit when I re-inserted "Taiwanese" into the caption I was reacting to the stated reason for removal, that "Taiwanese" was "anachronistic". It is no more so than we use "Taiwan" when discussing events from the 1800s when it was known as "Formosa". In the English of the 1950s "Formosa" and "Formosan" were still in common usage and the modern equivalents are "Taiwan" and "Taiwanese". Readin (talk) 22:22, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

He wouldn't have been called Taiwanese back then. He would have been called Benshenren. And Eisenhower would most certainly say that he was waving to Chinese people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.140 (talk) 21:51, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

This is an English Wikipedia. Su wouldn't have been called "benshengren" in English because very few English speakers would have known what it meant. Most likely he would have been called "Formosan", the modern English equivalent of which is "Taiwanese". As for Eisenhower, given that he was leading a country through the Cold War, he was likely very concerned with keeping the alliance with Chiang Kai-Shek strong and would have used "Chinese" simply to avoid offending his hosts, not to mention the propaganda benefits of calling Taiwan "Free China". In any case, I think removing the word "Taiwanese" from the photo of Eisenhower is ok for brevity. Given the page the photo is on, it is pretty obvious who he is waving to. We should keep the description "Taiwanese" for Su because it is an important fact about him as well as being the most readily understandable term for English speakers. Readin (talk) 06:52, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

PR China

I pay a lot of attention to news and issues related to China, and when I see "PR China" I think "Public Relations China" becuase no one uses "PR China" for anything, but "PR" is "Public Relations". Please use either "China" or "PRC". "China" would be better. Readin (talk) 12:46, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Until this edit yesterday, which smuggled in some changes under a misleading edit summary, the map/diagram simply used standard three-letter abbreviations for all the countries included, generating the common name of the country (including China and Taiwan), a link to the relevant country page and a flag icon. That was internally consistent in terms of format, clear and in line with our article names. The bid to change that - and introduce different formats with separate flag icons and name-links for China and Taiwan and also full-form names for the two of them - was, reasonably enough (and entirely correctly in my view), reverted. Rather than their trying to justify the change brefore reintroducing it, we then had various people edit warring the change, or variations of it, back in, often using bizarre edit summaries referring to Israel, WP not being ISO etc. I will restore the stable, prior, internally consistent version (I see it's just been changed yet again) and then perhaps can those obsessed with changing such a minor, trivial point put their case here first, before messing with it again? Thanks. N-HH talk/edits 13:13, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

I self reverted. That was mostly done to prevent the revert war from continuing (though in hindsight a pretty bad idea to begin with...). I didn't see that Readin started this thread along with making that edit. wctaiwan (talk) 13:21, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

It is still clear what "PR China" refers to, and it may be that you are the only one who thinks of "Public Relations China" when seeing "PR China". "China" alone is no good because in that context, it is equivalent to a direct statement of "Taiwan borders China", which is treading a political third rail. The lede uses the full form in describing borders. There is no reason the geolocation box shouldn't, either. GotR ^Talk 13:24, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

While I have no strong opinion (except that we should all just get along), PRC is definitely more widely used and better here than PR China. wctaiwan (talk) 13:38, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Most people in the world (serious sources and the person-in-the-street) would quite happily say that "Taiwan borders China", or at least "is adjacent to", nor is it a politically explosive statement in this kind of context. The only problem with such a formulation, or implication, is in the heads of one or two random WP editors. Yes the lead refers on first mention to PRC when talking about borders, but a) I'm not sure that's even nececessary there, and b) once that detailed name is established and set up, there's no need to repeat it over and over. Again, this simple diagram/map, which comes at the end of the page, once all the details have been thrashed out in the main article, uses short-form abbreviations for the other countries, which generate short-form names and simple links - and it has done for a while. There's no compelling justification or explanation above for why that structure and style needs to change for two of the places involved. As for the "PR China" option, to me that's kind of clear, but it's obvious there's potential theoretical confusion there, and it's certainly not a common abbreviation/form. (ps: Wctaiwan I noted your initial change when I was mid-way through my earlier post - and I was only noting it, I wasn't criticising as such, or singling it out for criticism - plus your self-rv only came through afterwards). N-HH talk/edits 14:00, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

A similar point has been used against me before, and I will wield it now: there is no guarantee that someone will see the entirety of the lede, much less the article, before moving on to External Links. Your entire argument collapses on this premise. The only problem with such a formulation, or implication, is in the heads of one or two random WP editors.—you go too far, and even resort to hyperbole, and there are many times more people who are irked by the "Taiwan borders China" formulation than the entirety of your country, which is crumbling to dust by the day. GotR ^Talk 14:11, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

The fact that it's at the end of the page was not my only justification for using the short form in the map. It's a simple, illustrative diagram, not a piece of geopolitical science. It's been the way it has for a while. It uses simple short-form ISO codes to generate simple short-form country names and flag icons. As for the rest of your comment, I simply do not know what I can say in response, especially in respect of the "crumbling to dust" silliness. You constantly cite or hint at alleged political bias over this issue - but it's clear who is seeing this through obsessively political eyes and demanding we factor in partisan objections in order to veto absolutely standard terminology. I'm sorry, it really is much simpler than that and is nothing to do with politics or (lack of) neutrality. N-HH talk/edits 14:26, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

What do you think if you see "BR Deutschland"? If the diagram cause more trouble than benifit, why don't remove it? Georgia (country) don't have such diagram. Ibicdlcod (talk) 07:32, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Look, I'm not sure how amazingly useful it is, but it has some utility as a simple, figurative diagram. Removing it altogether - as you have just done, without any agreement from anyone else in this thread - is just as disruptive as messing around with it. This thread was opened for suggestions/discussion as to what to do with it and precisely to avoid unilateral action. And saying that removal solves the dispute simply sets the precedent for anyone who doesn't like any content to get involved in an edit war over part of it and then suddenly declare the solution to that edit war is to remove it altogether. I've restored it, for now. Whether Georgia, or any other page, has one or not is entirely irrelevant - keeping this one and adding one there would be just as rational a response. N-HH talk/edits 08:30, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Personally I think the {{geographic location}} template is one of the ugliest things to ever appear on Wikipedia pages, and I've seen a lot of ugly templates over time here. It's basically a textified map, broken down to a resolution of only 9 units (3x3 block) and shows vastly less information than an actual map would show. We have a proper, albeit unlabelled map at the top of the article already, I'd like to see {{geographic location}} template removed altogether, or at minimum replaced by a labelled map of surrounding areas. Using that template feels like drawing an ASCII art picture instead of just including a real one. – NULL ‹talk›
‹edits› 00:18, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree. The template is ugly. It provides little value. Readin (talk) 12:59, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I would like to add that the template's ambiguity w.r.t. inclusion criteria in each of the directions has allowed Malaysia to be included here and formerly Massachusetts at Pennsylvania. GotR ^Talk 13:14, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't object to losing it. As noted, it doesn't add much here really. I reverted its removal earlier simply on the basis of it being a unilateral act done for the wrong reasons. N-HH talk/edits 14:20, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

The template page suggests it is meant for cities, rather than countries. Perhaps it should be excised from all country articles (other than perhaps places like Luxembourg and the Vatican). CMD (talk) 14:40, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

There seems to be consensus for removal, so I have removed it. Good job, everyone. :P wctaiwan (talk) 14:55, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Shorten intro section, move details to subsections?

Hi all, I made an attempt to shorten the intro but it was reverted. The intro is way too long and detailed for a country, and should be incorporated into other sections. My change summarized the key relevant issues and allows a reader who wants more info to find it in the history and other sections. To mention prehistory, economic status/ranking, and democracy in intro is simply unnecessary. To point out its disputed country status and related identity crisis is relevant. The history section may already be too detailed since it should cover the main changes in administration and let the details be in the articles of each period, ie, Taiwan under Dutch rule, etc. History of ROC prior ti 1949 should be covered in Republic of China (1912-1949). Thoughts? Mistakefinder (talk) 16:43, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

The lead as was seemed to be fairly normally sized when you look at other country leads. It's quite normal for country leads to include brief details of the history of the country - which here means both of Taiwan as a geographical area and of the ROC as a political state - as well as a round-up of its salient, modern features; which included, in this case, the problems surrounding Taiwan's status vis a vis China proper, objectively presented. Your edit/version removed pretty much all of that, reducing the lead to simply a kind of essay-debate about Taiwan's political/diplomatic status. There's a case for maybe trimming some of the writing, across the board, but broadly we had a stable, pretty well-written introduction - you unilaterally totally rewrote and refactored it without even raising any proposals here first. In doing so, you introduced, as noted - and to be blunt - some rather glaring POV/OR commentary and some very sloppy grammar. For example, and without suggesting that fixing these sentences would fix the overall problem with your edit -

• "The lack of universal agreement under international law over the theory of succession of states and the definition of when a state is considered “defunct”." - this is not a sentence
• "Due to China’s insistence of its claim to Taiwan, Taiwan was blocked from most international organizations and is unable to use its name to compete in the Olympics" - this is really badly phrased English and also presents an unfounded and simplistic analysis/causality as if it were fact
• "forced to use the name Chinese Taipei, a name that implies Chinese sovereignty" - again, unfounded assertion presented as fact
• "Taiwan is the only country and thriving democracy which meets all criteria of the definition of a "country" under the Montevideo Convention by the United Nations but yet is not recognized as one for political reasons" - ditto

Plus you introduced the weird phrasing "PR China", the problems with which were noted above. N-HH talk/edits 17:01, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I briefly looked-up other countries for comparison. The Taiwan intro section has 5 paragraphs. The intros for France, Germany, Australia and Japan each have 4 paragraphs. Given Taiwan's unique situation of having a government imported from across the Taiwan Strait as well as another country claiming the entirety of Taiwan and having that claim widely acquiesced to in international circles, a situation we all know causes difficulty and confusion not just in editing wikipedia and, I think it is highly appropriate that having an extra paragraph devoted to straightening out that mess in a NPOV way. It is after all an issue highly relevant to the identity of the article. Readin (talk) 17:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem with the changes were that they focused too obsessively on cross-strait issues, to the exclusion of anything else, whereas the previous one covered it, but only as one theme among many. The previous version had the following paragraphs -

1. General intro re geographic place and scope
2. Quick sweep re Taiwan history
3. Quick sweep re ROC history
4. Cross-strait and identity stuff (covered factually and objectively, after much past debate)
5. Taiwan's modern political and economic state

That seems pretty logical, informative and balanced in terms of its structure. Mistakefinder's version had -

1. General intro re geographic place and scope
2. A meandering, essay-like discussion about Taiwan's status and whether the ROC "exists", all laced with unsupported assertions about Chinese policy and purported debunkings of PRC claims
3. A short standalone paragraph about Chinese Taipei .. again with that blamed on China
4. A slightly meandering discussion about identity and the future of cross-strait politics
5. A short standalone POV assertion about the world's supposed failure to treat Taiwan as a proper country

And, of course, nothing about its modern political system, economy or society outside of a cross-strait context. I also missed out mentioning above further grammar howlers such as "The Chinese Communists, who won the civil war and declared itself as the 'new China'". Sorry, but diving in to make changes of this sort to a decently written and balanced lead is actually fairly disruptive. N-HH talk/edits 18:14, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

That unsourced sentence on the Montevideo convention seems familiar, I think it, or something very similar, may have been on a previous revision of this page. It's an incorrect assertion, which can be seen through List of states with limited recognition, although admittedly not all of them are "thriving". I agree that the lead could do with shortening (and it has sources not used anywhere else, which implies information in the lead not found in other areas), but Mistakefinder's edit was very much not the way to go about this. CMD (talk) 04:23, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

The semi-protection currently applied

See the thread I created on the admin's talk page. On the one hand, it seems to go against Wikipedia's spirit to keep out IP editors (even if many of whom that edited this article are POV pushers on either side); but on the other, the semi-protection may be necessary seeing as a lot of the disruptive, edit-warring IP editors have dynamic IPs. Thoughts? wctaiwan (talk) 08:33, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The protection is absolutely essential to stop bad faith editors wasting our time. HiLo48 (talk) 08:44, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm in favour in principle of IP contributions - often passing, unregistered editors contribute a lot more dispassionately and less intrusively than many registered accounts, many of whom seem to be here on a committed mission - but I change my mind every day. I've seen too much crap - often the same crap over and over - inserted by IP accounts on this and other controversial pages recently. Whether it's socking from older editors who know exactly what they are doing, or simply overeager naifs, it always gets a bit boring when you see the same old articles flashing up with the same disruption on your watchlist. Given that we have a pretty decent and stable lead currently (I've never delved too far myself into the main body) on a contentious topic, semi-protection seems fair enough. N-HH talk/edits 08:53, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

In the last few months I the signal to noise ration from IP editors has been pretty low on the articles I follow (mostly related to Taiwan). I think it would be good to keep the protection a little longer. Maybe things will get better now that school is starting. Readin (talk) 05:01, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

I think it just gets worse. In classes with computers and spare time, people tend to screw with random pages. 24.187.19.109 (talk) 21:57, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Tibet link on this page leads to "tibet area"

For some odd reason, the link to Tibet from the Taiwan page, leads to a scrubbed sort of watered-down version of what Tibet is...it's to a "tibet area" page, and doesn't go to the actual wiki page for Tibet. It goes to a page that basically says the Tibet area is part of China. It doesn't even vaguely hint that Tibet once was on its own, had its own culture, had its own language, etc. I find it disturbing that China just got done taking over Tibet, it is now trying to merge with Taiwan...and it feels like people are pretending Tibet never existed as separate from PRC. 192.33.240.95 (talk) 19:19, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Is Taiwan now something that belongs to China?

At the first paragraph it says Taiwan is officially Republic of China, means that Taiwan is still under the control of China? It's not correct to say that, Truth to say, Taiwan now has nothing to do with China at all in respect to Politics, law. It has its own passport, ID to its citizen. People from Mainland wanting to arrive in Taiwan have to use their passport. If Taiwan belonged to China, the mainlander wouldn't need their passport.Wilson20072000 (talk) 03:47, 29 September 2012 (UTC)