Talk:Race and intelligence

I find issue with the statement "and individuals of each group can be found at all points on the IQ spectrum." at the introduction.

This just looks like hogwash. The asian american IQ bell curve is far more to the right than the african american IQ bell curve, meaning that at some points on the IQ spectrum, notably at the much higher IQ ranges, there will be virtually no african americans but still a statistically significant amount of asian americans. I believe this inaccurate statement should be removed or replaced. RhymeNero (talk) 04:56, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Why do you think that what 'you believe' is of any relevance to Wikipedia article content? AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:04, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Because it is false information. It is indeed not a belief. Can you provide me with a reliable source that specifically states that all races are represented on all points of the IQ spectrum? RhymeNero (talk) 05:08, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

No. Because 'race' isn't a meaningful biological concept when referring to Homo sapiens. However, I'd recommend a little study of statistics too. Even if it were true (which it isn't) 'virtually no', isn't incompatible with 'individuals of each group'. If this is false information, provide a source that says so. Or troll elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:15, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

If it's not a "meaningful biological concept", then the article has no purpose at all. Then why are you even editing this page? You can recommend the article for deletion, if you feel so strongly. 221.120.115.125 (talk) 12:57, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

That race isn't a meaningful biological concept are your personal opinions, and yours only; not scientific assessments. And I'm sure there are IQ points where there are no african americans at all, virtual or real. I've done courses in statistics so don't lecture me on them. The fact is, race is no different to what we see in breeds of dog. Evolutionary pressures have pushed humans in different geographic locations to develop differently, both physically and mentally. There are enough differences between humans of these different locations to be taxonomically worthy. RhymeNero (talk) 05:25, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

The 'fact is' you don't have a clue what you are talking about. We don't give a toss about your ignorant and bigoted opinions on subjects you know nothing about (which seems to include statistics too. Since when is what you think you are 'sure of' a valid statistical measure?). Wikipedia articles are based on published reliable sources, not the ignorant ramblings of those who can't even be bothered to actually research the subjects they are commenting on. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:37, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Anyone who wants to take such a dogmatic stand needs first to re-read the second sentence of the article - "There are no universally accepted definitions of either race or intelligence in academia." With such uncertainty, no claim such as RhymeNero's can be made with any confidence at all. (In my view that sentence makes this whole article a candidate for deletion on the basis that it's bigoted, speculative nonsense, but I haven't won that argument yet.) HiLo48 (talk) 05:40, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Then ANY article involving race has also the same uncertainty. By your logic then, any article about race would be deleted.221.120.115.125 (talk) 13:19, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

You see what people like me have to put up with? Bigoted fools like Andy who spit in your face and hurl abuse when presented with valid sensible hypotheses. So for other animals sub species can exist but somehow this mythical human race transcends species sub divisions? Humans are animals just like the rest and we have human sub species that given enough time would have diverted into fully different species themselves. That's what happened with us and the chimpanzees and us with the Neanderthals. And if you cannot accept that, the bigoted fools are you two. The only reason sensible views such as mine aren't mainstream is because of political correctness. If you think politics is a good enough reason to censor scientific research then you don't deserve to be editing wikipedia articles right now. RhymeNero (talk) 05:47, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

See WP:NOTFORUM. This isn't a platform for you to spout ignorance from... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:53, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

And neither is this one for your ignorance. It is clear that your beliefs stem from your politics and there is no effort of neutrality on your part. You're just an angry little leftist liberal who's all for freedom of speech until it offends your sad little opinions. You have a weak mind. That is all. RhymeNero (talk) 06:02, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

See WP:TP for how to indent replies, and WP:TPG for the purpose of this page (hint: it's not a forum for expressing personal opinions, and particularly not a place to settle scores). Johnuniq (talk) 07:46, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

"And I'm sure there are IQ points where there are no african americans at all, virtual or real." Except that Philip Emeagwali, IQ of 190, is quite African, although not from America. I am afraid the mathematics of the bell curve are quite against you on this one. Besides, racial standard deviation, not racial mean, will determine the number of high IQ individuals. Rip-Saw (talk) 05:04, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Claims of Philip Emeagwali's assorted achievements are dubious B.B. (talk) 19:59, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

inconclusive studies

i just noticed that a lot of the subsections in the "genetic arguments"-chapter speak about either low correlations or inconclusive results. i don't see the point of providing that much space to such studies. totally undue. why not summarize and merge into a single section?-- altetendekrabbe  19:48, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Most of those studies are indeed not very informative, but the fact is that reliable sources devote a lot of space to these few studies, which means that they should be discussed here at some length, too.--Victor Chmara (talk) 21:05, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

sure they should be discussed but they are really taking a lot of space, rendering the page difficult and frustrating to read. you read a whole section... and you find out it's nothing really there.-- altetendekrabbe  21:51, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary. The fact that there are arguments put forward and given prominent coverage, but that studies have failed to produce significant or substantial evidence for them, is in itself a significant fact. It is missing the point to say "it's nothing really there". JamesBWatson (talk) 14:00, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

American Anthropological Association statement in the intro

This statement has multiple problems. It supports a minority point of view when there is nothing to balance with the majority viewpoint. Also, the AAA has not, as far as I have seen (correct me if I'm mistaken) done anything else to do with this debate, so surely a statement by them is less necessary, especial in the intro, then that by even 1 actually involved person like James Flynn or Richard Lynn? 110.32.146.96 (talk) 10:21, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The AAA with its 11,000 members is one of the biggest professional organizations of scholars and practitioners in the field of anthropology. I believe that whenever they release an official statement it supports a majority point of view within the field. FonsScientiae (talk) 21:06, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

But the question of R&I is not anthropology. Why? The question is whether the gap is genetic or not, and since race is genetic, the question is about whether the intelligence gap is genetic, making the debate psychological. Since we're on the topic, perhaps the survey should be mentioned in the intro. 110.32.155.210 (talk) 08:19, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

The AAA is a crypto-political propaganda organization controlled by Marxist Jews for the last 100 years. They are liars and frauds. 119.196.38.20 (talk) 06:52, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Assumption in the lead

Currently we lead with: "The connection between race and intelligence has been a subject of debate in..."

Given two major points of the "controversy" are the use of "race" (Is that a sub-species or just skin-color?) and "intelligence" (Did you mean IQ, g or other?): Why are stating that there is a connection between these undefined concepts in the first line? —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 09:10, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Because that's what reliable sources say. "Race and intelligence" is the rubric under which this topic is discussed in most sources. For example, in their article called "Race and intelligence" in The Cambridge Handbook of Intelligence (2011), Daley and Onwuegbuzie begin by saying that "The debate over racial differences in intelligence remains one of the most hotly contested issues in the social sciences today", and then attempt to contest the meaningfulness of the two concepts. In the same book, Earl Hunt writes that "We now come to what is possibly the most explosive topic in psychology -- the discussion of racial/ethnic differences in intelligence", and goes on to discuss both hereditarian and environmental theories of race differences in a balanced way. Racial differences in intelligence is how this topic is framed in reliable sources, regardless of how the two concepts are defined by different researchers. This article should reflect this fact.--Victor Chmara (talk) 11:14, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

My concern is that we are supporting the framing used by scientific racists, such as Hunt, as correct per the lead. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 10:06, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

You may think that everybody who does not accept your views is a "scientific racist", but that's neither here nor there. Moreover, as I pointed out above, those who argue against hereditarian explanations of racial differences also use the same framing. It's not a "scientific racist" framing but simply a scientific one.--Victor Chmara (talk) 10:51, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

This article should be deleted

The fact that this article uses race as an explanation to the different levels of intelligence is a racist act. Moreover, all the "warning signs" in the opening of the article is another prove for the many problems in this article. Therefore, I believe this article is not appropriate and should be deleted.(ScottyNolan (talk) 16:58, 2 August 2012 (UTC))

Cry me a river. There is a vast academic literature on this topic, easily fulfilling the standards of WP:NOTABILITY and WP:VERIFIABILITY. See also WP:NOTCENSORED.--Victor Chmara (talk) 17:59, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I also believe that this article fulfills the requirements for those three guidelines. You should review them. They're there for a reason, for situations such as this one. Lighthead...KILLS!! 06:51, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

The OP is completely right. The second sentence of the article begins "There are no universally accepted definitions of either race or intelligence in academia..." To have such a large article based on such uncertainty is just bullshit. HiLo48 (talk) 09:21, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Universal means everyone on the planet agrees with it. As in, even people that are uneducated and cannot do basic fractions much less understand bulletproof mathematics and statistics based arguments serving as the foundation for the concept of IQ. If anything, the statement about it not being universal is irrelevant. It's like saying 2+2=4 is not universally accepted... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.59.28.166 (talk) 12:03, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Many article subjects have no universally accepted definition, e.g. Race (human classification), Intelligence, Art and Kindness. That is no reason to delete an article.Sjö (talk) 09:54, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

It's a reason to delete any part of the text that is written as if there is a universally accepted definition. That would leave very little, and what would be left would be pretty pointless. Face the truth. This article simply provides a platform for racist bigots to stand on. Very ugly HiLo48 (talk) 19:47, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not in any way comparing Wikipedia to the ACLU but, does anybody think that the ACLU supports neo-Nazis? They defend them in court because they want to show all sides of the issue. Same thing here, if something exists we can't just put our heads in the sand no matter how offensive the topic is. Especially if the article meets the requirements per WP:NOTE. Accept it, the article is here to stay. Wikipedia should be as transparent as possible. Lighthead...KILLS!! 20:33, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

So if one person challenges any definition, we have to delete all text using that word? This is probably the most ridiculous statement I have ever read. It's lucky you have some name calling to change the subject. 119.196.38.20 (talk) 06:57, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:12, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

It should be noted in the article that scientists who research in this area are few and far between due to academic heckling and persecution

It is no surprise that few scientists are actually researching in this area, outside your Jensens and Rushtons because no scientist want their academic record discredited for being 'racist'.

I want to add this to the introduction: "In any case, due to the highly controversial and sensitive nature of this topic, very few scientists will even consider participating in any research of this type, leading to considerable academic literature skewed in favor of environmental causes but very little research supporting any genetic reasons, which is seen as politically incorrect. Indeed, Bruce Lahn, tenured professor at the University of Chicago, who was studying gene variance in the brain in different populations, retreated from his research after an academic backlash against the implications of his work went so far as to threaten his tenure at the university." Source: Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB115040765329081636-T5DQ4jvnwqOdVvsP_XSVG_lvgik_20060628.html)

YvelinesFrance (talk) 13:46, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

This is the same OLD original research and POV pushing just done by a NEW single purpose account. No. Volunteer Marek  20:31, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Looking at your contributions, I can say the same thing. All I see is POV pushing. How is what I have written original research if it is backed up by a wall street journal article? In any case I disregard your opinion completely.YvelinesFrance (talk) 20:42, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

No, the source doesn't say what you are pretending it says. Volunteer Marek  20:53, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

The source describes a backlash due to research in a controversial topic. What about that do you not comprehend? I don't see what I wrote as incendiary anyway so I don't understand your problem. It's obvious that scientists do not want to research race and intelligence because of the sensitive nature of the topic. Do you disagree? This information should be included in the article. YvelinesFrance (talk) 20:56, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

You are misrepresenting the source. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:00, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't see this as misrepresenting the source, either. Here is what the source that YvelinesFrance linked to says:

"The 37-year-old Dr. Lahn says his research papers, published in Science last September, offered no view on race and intelligence. He personally believes it is possible that some populations will have more advantageous intelligence genes than others. And he thinks that "society will have to grapple with some very difficult facts" as scientific data accumulate. Yet Dr. Lahn, who left China after participating in prodemocracy protests, says intellectual "police" in the U.S. make such questions difficult to pursue."

And this is what it says about why Bruce Lahn stopped researching the topic:

"Dr. Lahn stands by his work but says that because of the controversy he is moving into other projects. Earlier this year, Mr. Easton of the university's media department forwarded Dr. Lahn a paper by two economists looking at the IQ of infants of different races. Dr. Lahn wasn't interested. "I'm surprised anyone studies this," he replied in an email."

How is YvelinesFrance's summary inconsistent with that? Zeromus1 (talk) 22:05, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

...And in steps new SPA number two. If you think SPA number one's proposed 'contribution' accurately represents the source cited, take it to WP:RS, and see how it goes down there. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:13, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Nice thing about these little flare ups is that they tend to flush out the sockpuppet accounts. Volunteer Marek  22:29, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

You're saying this misrepresents the source, but you're refusing to explain how even when I quote the parts of the source that support it. How do you think this is helpful? If you could say "This part of the summary is unsupported by the article" then we could find a way to summarize it that would satisfy you, but you're just trying to shut down discussion by commenting on the other editors instead of the content. Zeromus1 (talk) 22:34, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

How about "an academic backlash against the implications of [Lahn's] work went so far as to threaten his tenure at the university" for a start? The source says no such thing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:24, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

In any case, due to the highly controversial and sensitive nature of this topic,^{[not in citation given]} very few scientists will even consider participating in any research of this type,^{[not in citation given]} leading to considerable academic literature skewed in favor of environmental causes^{[not in citation given]} but very little research supporting any genetic reasons,^{[not in citation given]} which is seen as politically incorrect^{[by whom?]}. Indeed, Bruce Lahn, tenured professor at the University of Chicago, who was studying gene variance in the brain in different populations,^{[not in citation given]} retreated from his research after an academic backlash against the implications of his work went so far as to threaten his tenure at the university.^{[not in citation given]}

Looks like a gross misrepresentation of the source to me. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 23:35, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump's summary sounds pretty good, but we should wait for YvelinesFrance's opinion. I think he wanted to mention that Lahn moved away from researching this topic because of the controversy. I quoted the part of the WSJ article that supports this, so I don't understand why everyone is claiming the article doesn't support it. What part of "because of the controversy he is moving into other projects" isn't clear? Zeromus1 (talk) 23:43, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

The part that defines "the controversy" as primarily concerning research "which is seen as politically incorrect" as opposed to Lahn's confusing correlation with causation. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 01:41, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

The article quotes Harpending as saying, "I think that Bruce doesn't understand political correctness" as an explanation for the controversy. It also mentions that the association reported by Lahn may or may not stand up, but doesn't say anything him confusing correlation with causation. You are saying that to avoid misrepresenting the source, we must avoid mentioning something that the source mentions, and should instead say something the source doesn't say. How do you justify that? Zeromus1 (talk) 02:08, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

It wasn't a suggestion. The "political correctness" quote is Harpending using the standard defense of those that share his beliefs and should not be presented in Wikipedia's voice. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 02:51, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

I think mentioning Lahn in the lede would be giving his situation undue weight, but there certainly seems to be a need to mention in the lede that at least one reason you don't find a lot of research on this matter is because it inherently generates controversy and hostility that many researchers would rather avoid. The WSJ article includes several quotes on that matter:

“ But some research is raising tensions as scientists such as Dr. Lahn venture into studies of genetic differences in behavior or intelligence . . . Other research is starting to explain variations in human skin color and hair texture. But scientists tense up when it comes to doing the same sort of research on the brain . . . Several groups of scientists have sent letters to Science criticizing the papers. ”

The wording suggested by Yvelines is a bit too editorialized, but this article can certainly be used to note the impact the controversy has on attempts at researching the subject.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:09, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Would you be willing to try proposing a new wording, that improves on the wording YvelinesFrance suggested? Zeromus1 (talk) 08:09, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps something like: "Research into genetic causes for intellectual differences between racial groups is controversial and faces resistance in the scientific community due to concerns about the social implications of such research." That would be sufficiently short and generalized for the lede, while representing the source well.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:02, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Artifex Mayhem, do you have a Bachelor of Science degree from Harvard? Do you have a Phd from MIT? Do you have a professorship at one of the most prestigious universities in the world? What makes you think someone of Lahn's stature would confuse cause and correlation, one of the most basic mistakes of first year undergraduates of statistical courses? Your statement is humorously inane. In any case I am happy to see that a few other editors agree that research in this topic is very limited, at least in terms of using actual genetic data rather than fallible sociological studies that pose as scientific ones. Perhaps an editor better than I could come up with a better way to describe this phenomenon though I am fully willing to do it myself. YvelinesFrance (talk) 18:11, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

YvelinesFrance, do you approve of the wording suggested by The Devil's Advocate in the comment above yours? Zeromus1 (talk) 12:11, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes I do, it's much more succinct than my own words. YvelinesFrance (talk) 15:59, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

The suggested wording is not supported by the source provided. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 17:56, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the wording in the lede suggested by The Devil's Advocate. It is succinct and it is surely not controversial to suggest that this is a controversial subject. --- Asteuartw (talk) 20:06, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I also agree with The Devil's Advocate's wording, and I think we should go ahead and add it to the article. It looks to me like ArtifexMayhem is just being obstructionist here, and that shouldn't prevent us improving the article. Zeromus1 (talk) 20:18, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

How is my suggesting wording not supported? Look at these excerpts from the source:

Dr. Lahn had touched a raw nerve in science: race and intelligence . . . But some research is raising tensions as scientists such as Dr. Lahn venture into studies of genetic differences in behavior or intelligence . . . Other research is starting to explain variations in human skin color and hair texture. But scientists tense up when it comes to doing the same sort of research on the brain. Sociologist Troy Duster, who studies the use of racial categories by geneticists, worries that scientists will interpret data in ways that fit their prejudices. He cites the sorry history of phrenology, a study of skull shapes popular in the 19th century, and other pseudoscientific techniques used to categorize people as inferior . . . John Easton, head of media relations at the medical school, says his office was worried the work could be misinterpreted and abused by racist groups.

Now, some of that pertains specifically to Lahn's research, but several of those quotes clearly address the broader issue of there being resistance to research into race and intelligence due to concerns about the social implications. There are some additional sources that are of interest to this question: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. If you think the WSJ source is not quite sufficient then maybe some of these will do it.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

More specifically, the claim that the "research" itself faces "faces resistance" because of the possible "social implications" is not supported. It is Lahn's conclusions that are not supported. Other scientists are resistant to those conclusions specifically because they are not supported by the science (in this case Lahn's own research). — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 23:28, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

See the quotes "some research is raising tensions" and "scientists tense up when it comes to doing the same sort of research on the brain" as those directly point to the research itself facing resistance. The other sources provided more clearly point to this resistance.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:46, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

And that resistance may or may not be based on "social implications" (i.e. political correctness). — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 05:36, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

The quotes "worries that scientists will interpret data in ways that fit their prejudices" and "his office was worried the work could be misinterpreted and abused by racist groups" point to the resistance being about the social implications. Scientists are concerned, understandably so, that such research could seemingly legitimize arguments of white racial superiority. In the Independent article there is another such quote: "Sabeti says that she has not found any evidence in her haplotype analysis to support Lahn's findings, and she freely admits that this is a relief. 'This is a very delicate time, and a dangerous time, as people start to come up with things that the general public, or the media, or various groups might misinterpret.'" Also see the Nature article "Claims that sex- or race-based IQ gaps are partly genetic can offend entire groups, who feel that such work feeds hatred and discrimination. Pressure from professional organizations and university administrators can result in boycotting such research, and even in ending scientific careers." We have several sources now that can support the statement.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 15:25, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

That's quite excellent, all we need now is a summary of it in the article itself. YvelinesFrance (talk) 17:59, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

They always write the same thing when they don't like it. "You're misrepresenting the source and you are a sockpuppet". They are liars, that's all.