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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 67.169.11.52 (talk) at 23:00, 6 November 2012 (→Seriously, deeply concerned ...). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


(Manual archive list)

A twisted essay

Greetings Jimbo and stalkers as well. I've never been a huge fan of WP:IAR, though I understand its intent, and predominantly agree. I've created an essay that twists the concept to a position more favorable to my comprise, and I'd like to introduce it to you, and others; WP:IAR. I believe it allows an equivalent flexibility while comporting with structure and discipline. In the absence of outcry, I think it can be useful, and I commend its existence to you, and the community at large. By all means, feel free to tweak it towards an improved version, as well as express assent or dissent, as deemed appropriate. Thank you. 76Strat String da Broke da (talk) 03:22, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In a word, no. --Malerooster (talk) 03:31, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is neither the meaning of WP:IAR nor is it a good idea... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Müdigkeit (talk • contribs) 05:13, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If this redirect essay is kept in Wikipedia space, someone should write a "This page in a nutshell" section for it, to summarise its content in an easy to understand manner. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:42, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am confused slightly, There are no redirects except the shortcuts. WP:IAR. is an essay, it has a nutshell, and it is a counter-equivalent sentiment to WP:IAR. WP:IAR.? is an explanation of the former, as similarly as WP:IAR? is to the latter; it has no nutshell, so I omitted it in similar form. Personally I can accomplish all of my editing without ignoring any rules, so instead I will incorporate them. And I am interested in suggestions to improve it, or bold edits to accomplish the same. If it should be MfD'd, I'll join the discussion, but hey, it's an essay. Cheers, - 76Strat String da Broke da (talk) 06:43, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Concur with Resolute - very very inappropriate hijack ... (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:10, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So far, nobody agrees with WP:IAR.? as an essay in WP space. I accept My76Strat's invitation to be bold. I've userfied both to User:My76Strat/Incorporate all rules and User:My76Strat/What "Incorporate all rules" means, and updated the redirect WP:IAR.? to point there. The name of the redirect IAR.? is POV about IAR, a core policy based on WP:Five pillars, and it's needlessly difficult to reach by typing as a link, even though it seems strictly legal per naming conventions. The articles are radical outliers which seem intended to confuse editors, and to subvert a long-standing policy based on the WP:Five pillars. The word "rules" itself is disavowed by WP:Five pillars, and Ignore all rules amplifies that. But "Incorporate all rules" encourages their application as rules, counter to pillar and policy. IMHO, the less said about rules except at IAR and the Five pillars, the better. --Lexein (talk) 06:52, 6 November 2012 (UTC) (expanded --09:08, 6 November 2012 (UTC)}[reply]
I agree with what I see as two parts of the premise: that following the rules is generally, if not the best way, a very good way to get to an encyclopedia article; and that most actions that are "justified" by IAR are just "ignoring the rules" without any adherance to the conditional "if it improves the encyclopedia". But I dont know that any essay or this particular essay would be helpful in discussions to bring either of those points home. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:51, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Request doesn't really quite make sense to me. Please unarchive and explain if it makes sense to you. Thanks!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:39, 5 November 2012 (UTC)----Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:39, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Hello,

Personal request: you need delete this topic: IP: 80.86.42.115 (IP - the mirror of the official site of the UK government). See:

  • The link has been added by someone whose username is very similar to the domain being added;
  • The IP related to the link is added by someone with an IP close to the IP of the link.

Link to delete this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Spam/Local/epetitions.direct.gov.uk (only crazy human could make the such violation).

Because the government has the big shame (admins of Wikipedia gave status of "spamer" for the Queen almost).

And USA - partner of the Monarchy.

Additional link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_Kingdom

We very ask. Thank you! - 78.106.232.146 (talk) 11:35, 5 November 2012 (UTC).[reply]

Near as I can tell, the website "epetitions.direct.gov.uk" has been blacklisted because people were using it to spam links to epetitions. It is, however, a site hosted by the Government of the United Kingdom. So their complaint, hilariously, is that we are basically accusing the queen of being a spammer. We aren't, of course. As to their apparent request, I can't see any reason why we would unblock an online petition website, even one hosted by a government. It isn't Wikipedia's role to support people in their online activism. Resolute 14:41, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's a fairly important and legitimate site, though. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply block whoever was linking to it inappropriately? A total site ban on links to the site seems excessive to me. Can you show me examples or help me find the original discussion of this, so that I can be sure I understand the full story?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:44, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Some technical details here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Spam/Local/epetitions.direct.gov.uk. Its child page shows there have been at least 28 attempts to link a petition to an article, by 23 different accounts/IPs, so no, blocking isn't a viable solution. I guess the question is, would there ever be a legitimate reason to link to a specific petition? My personal answer is no, but if someone can convince the community of value, then a single petition link could be whitelisted. Likewise, the main site url could be whitelisted without allowing specific petitions to be linked/spammed. (For the record, I've no involvement with the spam wikiproject or the blacklisting of the site. I was just curious). Resolute 15:40, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I can imagine many legitimate reasons to link to a specific petition. If a petition is successful enough to trigger a debate in Parliament, and receives independent news coverage as a result, then articles on the general topic, the petition itself, prominent people involved, etc. might discuss the petition and it would seem bizarre not to link to it in that case.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:32, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The idea that "If a petition is successful enough [it triggers] a debate in Parliament" is an urban myth, generally put about by petition organisers trying to encourage people to sign up in the belief that their signature will have an effect. Petitions with 100,000 signatures go to a committee which considers them as a potential topic for Parliamentary debate, but that's a big jump from "triggers a debate". Britain has a weak and unstable coalition government, which has enough difficulty getting its own policies through Parliament - the odds that any significant Parliamentary time would be devoted to a bill not coming from one of the four main parties is close to zero, and the odds that a petition would be independently notable are even lower. Mogism (talk) 17:56, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps. But then, our coverage of the petition would be written using the RS sources that covered it. Adding the petition itself would be of little additional value as an EL on anything except an article specifically about the petition. That would be one of those exceptional cases where we'd probably whitelist that specific link. Resolute 18:06, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Site of the UK government was unblocked earlier. IP: 80.86.42.115 - is the mirror of the site epetitions.direct.gov.uk (official site of the government). Thus, not simple user made the editings (staff or webmaster of the site of the UK government). Resolutions in relation of these petitions - are the results of opinions of people with state power. Because agencies of the government must be free of the such shame everywhere, we ask delete this dangerous info fully (reputation of any government - important thing). Our discussion - is on several hours, but fine results - is forever. When the Monarchy will be free of the damage for the reputation (fine results). Important detail: the UK government can forbid all projects of the Wikimedia in its the jurisdiction because of the insult in relation of the Monarchy. Legislation: http://www.legislation.gov.uk (great number of laws). On the page with the shame are located even threats in relation of the government:

WARNING to users of this data. At the moment of creation, parts of the database were not available (due to maintenance or database problems) - be careful: there may be more additions available. My signature has no relation to this phrase. - 78.106.232.146 (talk) 18:45, 5 November 2012 (UTC).[reply]

  • Several things. First, Please write your posts in coherent English. You are nearly impossible to understand. Second, read our no legal threats policy. About the only reason why I don't block you for its violation is the patent silliness of your threat. Third, blacklisting the site does not damage the reputation of the Monarchy (not that it has traditionally needed outside help for that). Fourth, given your poor English, you most certainly are not affiliated with the UK government. So please, stop beating around the bush and just tell us which petition you want to add and to what article so we can deal with your real request. Resolute 18:51, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm..., both IPs are from the Moscow region. 95, you need to read WP:NLT. You can be blocked for that. Wikipedia does have a fine legal representation, and please show civility. The Crown's reputation will not be harmed. Thegreatgrabber (talk)contribs 00:06, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Jimbo Wales ... people from whole world will control your actions" - I think this is a very interesting proposal. However, for it to work, Jimbo would need to be fitted with some sort of cybernetic implants (muscle actuators or whatever) connected to a web interface. I can also imagine it causing some difficulties with co-ordination when more than one person tries to control Jimbo's actions at once. I think Kevin Warwick has done some research in this area.
Also I think there may be some misunderstanding due to a language gap - Jimbo has indicated an enthusiasm for knowledge being available to everyone in the world, not control of him personally. So such an experiment might not be a priority! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:17, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please fix the Wikipedia watchlist

I'm an average but somewhat active wikipedian, and I'm writing to ask you to improve the watchlist system that Wikipedia uses. A few years ago Wikipedia switched to a different watchlist system. No longer do you see multiple edits, but just one edit per article, the latest one. This is misleading since the latest edit often misrepresents the other edits. Assuming the following:

  • Edit 1 - Bob Brown -2500 - Delete criticism section
  • Edit 2 - Bob Brown +50 - Link to correct article
  • Edit 3 - Bob Brown -5 - Edit link

With the previous watchlist system, all the edits were visible and it let users verify and revert the deletion of the "criticism section" if necessary. But with the current system only the last edit shows, which misleads editors into thinking that Bob Brown did nothing more than a minor edit and deserves no verification. From a design standpoint this is a flaw and should be fixed as soon as possible.

One solution is showing all the edit comments, with the total chars added and deleted in a single entry:

  • 3 Edits - Bob Brown -2505 and +50 - Delete criticism section, Link to correct article, Edit link

Thank you. -- Tom Jenkins (reply) 12:51, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There's an option in Preferences-Watchlist-Expand Watchlist to show all changes which may help a bit.
Personally, I prefer to have just the last change in the list, and hover the "hist" link using PopUps to see previous changes, but ymmv.Begoon talk 12:58, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo, can you consider an improvement for the same? -- Tom Jenkins (reply) 17:02, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am not directly or indirectly in the flow of such specific decisions about the software. As a board member, I was one of the unanimous votes for Sue's "Narrowing Focus" plan, see this vote and the associated document. It includes an increased focus on engineering and editor experience, and this will include the sorts of improvements that you're discussing. It will also include an additional focus on empowering community developers to roll out code changes more quickly than in the past. I'm particularly hopeful that this will allow us in the community who can program to get involved in the kinds of small fixes that we're talking about here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:03, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Saudi Arabia partnership and censorship

Hi Jimmy,

did you have time to investigate this matter? Are you happy or not?

--81.173.135.121 (talk) 18:27, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've learned a great deal more. I am happy about it now. I will report fuller when I have time, but I'm at a Wikimedia board meeting now... probably early next week, although if I get a spare moment, maybe later today.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:40, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you got time - I am still interested. --81.173.135.121 (talk) 15:31, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. This deal, like many other deals with telecom companies around the world, allows end users to access Wikipedia without paying data charges. Per our longstanding principles, we do not condone or participate in any way in censoring Wikipedia on behalf of any government or organization. This applies in this case as well. Whatever censorship there is in Saudi Arabia (and there is censorship in Saudi Arabia) is imposed by a government-run proxy "run by the Communication and Information Technology Commission". Neither we nor the ISP (mobile operator) has any control over that.
Deals like this involve a careful weighing of risks, of course. Some might argue that we should refuse to do partnerships to bring Wikipedia to more people, if it involves partnering in any way with any organization inside countries who practice censorship. My own view is more complex: we should evaluate such cases against two very firm principles: (1) First do no harm, i.e. we do not participate in censorship schemes ourselves no matter what offers might be made (2) we should maintain our fight against censorship in any effort to provide greater access to Wikipedia around the world.
I would be very unhappy indeed, if we ever agreed to participate in a censorship process.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:25, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Use of First Person?

Hi, is it appropriate for this user page to use first person, as though the paragraphs were being written or spoken by the subject? I realize that it is his user page, but it seems odd that there are thousands of editors assuming his voice. I personally don't feel comfortable writing in the first person for anyone other than myself. --Lacarids (talk) 00:09, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming you mean the page User:Jimbo Wales, then my guess would be that there's only some hundreds of people who have made edits on the page that have stayed, not thousands.
The other way of looking at it is that, when something is added to the page that editors feel does not reflect what Jimbo wants to be there, it will get removed or fixed. The basic theme of the page has been the same for years now, and we assume that basic theme was provided by Jimbo, not by us speaking in his voice. Occasionally Jimbo also makes clear that there are certain things he does or does not want on it. (Like lots of fancy or confusing markup, for example.)
Think of it as similar to a ghostwriter made up of thousands of people. There's a basic story that needs to be got across, but the exact wording is up to us. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:01, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously, deeply concerned ...

...about the way our "Government" is evolving. I'm trying to hang on in here, by the skin of my teeth. I really don't like this "Government". It reminds me far too much of the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989. And also of the Ceaușescu regime. And of the Forced disappearances in so many places. And of Lord of the flies and Animal farm.

"Disappearances work on two levels: not only do they silence opponents and critics who have disappeared, but they also create uncertainty and fear in the wider community, silencing others who would oppose and criticise."

We're living in a scary place, right now. First they came….

I may be around from time to time, but certainly not as before. Surely this isn't what you meant by a "community"? Pesky (talk) 08:17, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's a lovely dramatic turn of phrase, but can you be more specific about a particular problem that I might learn something from?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:47, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's about the blocks of User:Penyulap and his talk page, as discussed at User talk:Courcelles and a few other locations. Fram (talk) 10:01, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, not, it's not just about that, at all. It's an accumulation of a number of things in a number of places. That's just one thing. A previous one, which I found very deeply concerning, was when ArbCom were asked for clarification on an issue, and brought out the firing squad as opposed to clarifying a point of law (which was all they were asked for). A total failure to understand the question asked of them, and an apparent failure to realise the concerns and consensus there. Pesky (talk) 10:06, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's not about that? Well, if it had been about that, it would be worth noting that one of the major participants in the discussion at User talk:Courcelles has just now been blocked for two weeks on a different matter, but with an explanation at WP:AN that "I have blocked for two weeks, which I think was fairly generous, especially considering the personal attacks and the battleground mentality on User talk:Courcelles' talk page". I'm worried that this may enhance your dramatic turns of phrase, though :-) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 10:20, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I apologise for not being able to keep up with things. Real Life, ya know, getting in the way. this is one of the others. (As far as I recall, this is the one and only time I ever flew off the handle in the 'pedia. Yes, I hurled obscenities, myself ... very unlike me.) I wish it were easier to find archived requests – I've had to do a cowboy-cobble to get to (probably not all) of this. I'm not referring to any particular situation that affects me personally, here, just what seems to be developing into a very heavy-handed approach all around. Pesky (talk) 10:23, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Demi, dearest, I know you've predicted this, but that example is a little bit disturbing. If the block were required (and I'm certainly not saying it's not required, under the letter of the law), it would have been so much better if it hadn't been applied by someone who was involved in an argument with the user at the same time ... who hadn't just told the blocked person "You're not discussing, you're engaging in a torch-and-pitchforks procession. I strongly advise you to disengage and let someone else deal with this who doesn't have an ax to grind." So much better for this to have been done by someone who was disengaged from any current / recent disputes with the editor in question, and couldn't possibly be seen, by anyone, as having an ax to grind.

Adding: the above may very well not violate the letter of WP:INVOLVED, but it certainly appears to violate the spirit of it. Things like this do get gamed, in many places, though I'm not necessarily suggesting that this was deliberate gaming. Pesky (talk) 10:36, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it is being gamed, though perhaps not in the way you think. A phenomenon I've seen increasingly frequently in the past years is people setting themselves up in the role of a "critic of authority" and using that as a shield for their misbehaviour. Whenever someone tries to put them to task over the disruption, cue the cries of "They're trying to silence a critic!" The sad thing? It works more often than not. Most of the administrators then turn a blind eye and avoid acting for fear of being "repressive" given our powerful culture against that – and the arbitrators are even more strongly tied up given the scrutiny.

Is this everyone who claims "repression"? Certainly not. Still, someone much wiser than I once said "When someone screams about 'admin abuse', it's most likely true – they're probably abusing admins again." It bears keeping to mind before you take every claim from self-designated martyrs at face value. — Coren (talk) 14:18, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am aware that this happens. However, in attempting to shut up those who are gaming the system in that way, we need to be very careful that we're not also silencing those who aren't: those who are genuinely concerned that something has gone / is going very wrong. It's very tempting (and human nature) to tar everyone with the same brush. And it's almost always wrong to. Adding: there is always the thing, of course, where everyone who criticises is seen as "misbehaving". Pesky (talk) 14:23, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's true, but I believe that's actually very rare. I don't remember every seeing someone setting themselves up as a critic that got in trouble over the criticism rather than actual disruption – I'm sure they exist (and are possibly fairly common given the generally libertarian outlook of Wikipedians) but since they tend to never pop up on the drama boards, they keep a low profile and never end up in the limelight.

With one (very salient) exception, I don't recall a high-profile critic that was a critic before they got sanctioned for some problematic behaviour. — Coren (talk) 14:37, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(Coughs) – iridescent 14:42, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm not "high-profile", I suppose. But I am (kinda by definition!) a critic. And I've never (yet) been sanctioned for any problematic behaviour. Pesky (talk) 14:45, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Me, too. And I think that others with messageboxes similar to that of Boing! said Zebedee also fit the bill. There is a problem at the moment. - Sitush (talk) 14:50, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(e/c) Well yes, that's my point. I doubt you'll find anyone here even thinking of (virtually) roughing you up over that criticism! There is no conspiracy to take you out, nor "attempts to bait you", nor even people trying to find a nit to hang you over.

Let me put it this way: this project's community is so fundamentally permissive of criticism and anti-authoritarian in nature that even the trolls that pose as critics are left to disrupt and consume community resources – sometimes over years – over the reluctance of even appearing to be repressive. That is why I take it with a five-ton grain of salt when someone who ends up over and over on the drama boards is crying "Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" — Coren (talk) 14:52, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Coren
Would you please address Pesky's concern about ArbCom turning a request for clarification into an attempted banning of an editor (before most of them came to their senses)?
Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:36, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It was neither unprecedented nor particularly surprising; there is a reflex – not entirely unwarranted – to re-evaluate whether an editor's continued participation is beneficial on the whole when they have returned in front of the committee for the umpteenth time over the same issue. Would I have voted to ban him? I don't know. I haven't evaluated the situation, nor was it my job to do so. I do think that some of the comments from the sitting arbs were catastrophically asinine (on both sides of the discussion) and I will certainly vote accordingly come next elections.

Do I believe that this is indicative of a fundamental problem of repression or political payback? I know it isn't. I know for a fact that the poor sods currently sitting on the committee are doing the best they can to help the project, to the limits of their ability. Mostly it works out on average, sometimes it blows up. I certainly will be voting against some of the current arbitrators (not just over that incident), but I see no justification for heaping scorn on the group, the institution, or even those individuals whose judgement I find most lacking. I was in that seat. I know it's a fucking hard job. I know that even those I think should not be within 10' of the committee have willingly taken a shit responsibility for trying to do the Right Thing even if it means being spat upon and crapped all over as your sole reward, and they deserve respect if only for that. Disagree with them. Vehemently if you feel the need for it. Campaign, or run for a seat yourself. But do yourself and everybody else a service and stop imagining vast conspiracies to "get" some editors, or to take over, or whatever else is the reproach du jour. — Coren (talk) 16:20, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've skimmed the rest of this conversation, but right now I really just want to make one point, directed at Pesky's original post: Pesky, are you aware how painful it is to be someone working in the "government" to help the encyclopedia run, and to see you saying we're basically committing genocide, murder, real-life horrors? I know you say you're very concerned about civility and not hurting people, so I'm really very surprised to see you tarring all admins with such a horribly offensive brush, especially when you're then hurrying to add that we're all so truly, deeply horrible that we're sure to arrange for you to "disappear" next because you dared call us the war criminals we are. No, I don't want you dead. No, I don't want anyone dead. I don't want the worst trolls I've ever encountered "dead" or "disappeared" or "sent to Siberia" or "given smallpox-ridden blankets," and I think I speak for pretty much every other admin on Wikipedia when I say that when you make statements implying that we do, or that we are just as bad as people who do, you are alleging very serious things about people who have never done anything to you. I don't understand quite why you dislike all of us so much when 99.99% of us have never had a thing to do with you, or why you feel it's ok to hurl such horrible words at us as if we don't have feelings and don't count, but I wish you'd give some thought to the fact that you're hurting real, live human beings when you go on about how we're less than human. It doesn't make the people you think are being victimized any better off for you to turn and victimize others. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:50, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A fluffernutter is a sandwich, if it is so painful "to be someone working in the "government" to help the encyclopedia run", there's an easy way out of that "government" and its pain: just resign your position in the goverment, and go write the encyclopedia. 67.169.11.52 (talk) 17:50, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hello logged-out/IP editor. Do you genuinely think that the best response to being hurt by what someone says is to resign and stop helping? If we all did that, things would cease to function around here very rapidly, and we might be able to power a small country with the force of all the "whoosh"ing as people go out the door. My personal feeling is that a better place to start is to ask the person to reconsider what value they're getting from using dehumanizing or offensive terms. Often they don't even realize that they've crossed a line or hurt you; other times having attention drawn to it will make them reconsider their strategy even if they knew what they were doing. In a similar "ask to reconsider" vein, I would point out that you appear to be conflating "administrator" with "has never written an article or otherwise contributed to Wikipedia content". Could I perhaps urge you to reconsider that notion? I'm in the middle of the pack as far as creating and improving articles - that is, I work steadily, but I am by no means a "top" creator - but I think you'll find any number of admins around here who create or improve tons of articles (as well as any number of non-admins who don't; for instance, under this IP address the only thing you appear to have done on Wikipedia is speak here on Jimbo's talk. That doesn't mean I get to look down my nose at you, as long as you're operating in good faith and trying to help). A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:20, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Arbcom places restriction on editor. Editor edits in line with written wording of restriction but not in spirit (continuing the same behavior that the restriction was placed in an attempt to prevent). An administrator raises clarification request as admin actions taken in line with enforcing spirit of restriction are contested by editor. Arbcom leans towards banning due to the ongoing behavior but settles for re-wording the restriction to make it say unambiguously what the editor must not do. Entirely within their remit. If you dont want to end up at Arbcom, dont skirt around things arbcom have sanctioned you not to do. Pesky's complaint is about not following due process, however the due process here would have been for Arbcom to a)clarify intent of restriction, b)wait until someone raises an AE enforcement request or an amendment request. Its needless process wonkery given everyone was already on the same page after clarifying it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:03, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can understand Pesky’s point of view, as the past few months have been very unsteady in certain circles. Malleus Fatuorum spent nearly 24 hours under threat of a ban at ArbCom. Large portions of the community spoke out against this and Malleus’ ban proposal lead to a number of editors going on strike. Penyulap is an example of a blocked editor who was trying to improve the encyclopedia, who has been blocked and unblocked from editing his talk page multiple times, along with his talk page fully protected (in no small part by sitting Arbitrators). I’m sure you’ll see editors here with an axe to grind.

The reason that these two cases are linked and the reason that Pesky has posted here is that they both involve civility complaints and de-humanisation of editors. In Malleus’ case, Jclemens suggested that he “is not now, nor has he ever been, a member of the Wikipedia community” as Malleus did not abide by all 5 pillars. In Penyulap’s case, similar to many blocked editors – his userpage has been blanked and tagged ([1]), his talk page has been blanked and fully protected with accusations of trolling ([2]) - both actions have since been undone. I’m not commenting about the validity of any statements or actions – they are all debateable. If anyone want’s my opinion on these cases, I’d be happy to give them at my talk page.

What I am trying to highlight though is how we as a community treat people. From the comments made in the request for clarification to the comments made to blocked users to Pesky’s comments above, highlighted by Fluffernutter – which tar the “government” as similar to those responsible for atrocities. These are all uncivil comments, because civility means treating people like people. I was bored the other day and put together a list of contradictions between standard wikispeak and what I’d consider to be civil. We’re on the internet, it’s easy to forget that the editor you’re talking about is a real person, with real feelings. It’s a problem with an anonymous society and I don’t have a solution. WormTT(talk) 16:48, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Fluff (and all those sharing Fluff's views): yes, I actually do understand how difficult it can be to be in a governmental-type situation. I really do. I can (kinda) imagine the amount of pure crap wossname that arrives in the email every day; I can sure as heck understand the levels of stress which can be involved. Fing is, though, fing is ... that a lot of good people are seeing things going wrong. Not just "all the usual suspects". We seem to be swinging towards more and more draconian measures to deal with what are sometimes really semi-trivial little things. And draconian measures, unless the levels of absolute pure justice are unimpeachable, are always something to be very cautious about.

Oh, umm, errmmm .... I didn't actually tar all admins with the same brush. And I didn't actually call everyone war criminals. I just said I'm being reminded of various oppressive regimes, where the voices of critics and "the puling masses" can just get silenced. It seems that my original concern has been kinda twisted around a bit; almost certainly unintentional, I know, but still a little hurtful to see what I was trying to say being distorted into some kind of all-out name-calling attack against all admins and all arbs ... Pesky (talk) 18:17, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you did invoke Godwin in your opening paragraph; that's rarely conductive to cool heads even with the very best intentions and some people are bound to take offence. That said, I don't think anyone is making light of your concerns, but I do think you're worrying for the wrong reasons. I think that fear of an oppressive regime on Wikipedia are not warranted. Yes, there are critics that end up in trouble. No, I don't believe it ever occurred that they ended up in trouble because they were critics. Some may have gotten in trouble over the manner of the criticism (trolling, or disrupting to make the point) that would have been welcomed if they had behaved, some were critics that ended up in trouble for unrelated reasons, and some simply played the role of critics as a cynical ploy to shield themselves from consequence of their unrelated misbehaviour.

If I ever find someone who was ousted or harassed because they held or expressed critical views, I'd be the first to take up arms to protect them. — Coren (talk) 18:45, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(after much edit conflicting) Really, either you're making a point that Wikipedia's admins are operating like dictatorships that "disappear" people - in which case it's appropriate for you to say we remind you of war criminals - or you're making some other point entirely, in which case saying we remind you of this dictator, that maniac, and this book about how people get off on abusing each other is...not only misplaced, but very unnecessarily inflammatory. I feel like I say the phrase "unnecessarily inflammatory" a lot lately. That's probably because people on Wikipedia are prone to using hyperbolic, extreme language to describe what could be described much more calmly, and then being surprised when the extreme language is interpreted as them saying what they mean to say. Let's try an analogy. I know you love your ponies, right? So suppose I think you've overworked one of them one day, and I wander up and I say to you, "God, watching you work that pony reminds me of the guy who just got arrested for slowly dismembering dogs while enjoying their pain. No, more than that. I'm reminded of that other guy who who doused a horse with gasoline and then lit it on fire, and then posted on youtube." You, obviously, would get upset. How could I say such a thing about you? You love your ponies and you would never, ever purposely injure one of them or be cruel to them or enjoy them suffering! Would it be appropriate for me to then see how upset you were and say, "What? I'm hurt that you think I was comparing you to cruel, animal-killing maniacs! You've twisted around my point, which was just that you've overtired your pony and I think you shouldn't do that!" And really, maybe that is all I meant. But I sure did a bad job of saying that, didn't I, since instead I somehow managed to compare you to horrible abusers of animals? In other words, if what you want to say is "I think we need to be careful about interpreting criticism itself as disruption", then you can say that very well without throwing out things that look like accusations that the administrators here are maniacs who not only disapprove of criticism, but will take any violent, destructive means necessary to keep people from seeing it. I believe you if you say that wasn't your point, but I question why you then felt you needed to couch your point in language dehumanizing admins as horrible criminals.

The problem with doing that - the problem with overreaching your analogy to the very end of that slippery slope, with implying we are the very worst of the worst, is that you're spiking your own guns. If that's what you think of admins who you haven't even met yet, or haven't even had a conflict with - and all signs until your latest comment point(ed) to that being what you were trying to get across - how can we learn from you at all? If I'm going to be thought of as Ceaușescu whether I block vandals, or I never once use the block button, or I counsel everyone I can get my hands on and only block as a catastrophic last resort, how would I know whether I'm actually doing anything wrong with any of those? There's no real feedback here; I'm assumed to be horrible no matter what I'm doing. If you really want people to hear and understand what you're afraid you see happening, and you want us to be able to act on it, you have to speak in realistic terms, actually explaining what the problem is, because those are the only type of terms that give people something to act on that might satisfy you. Godwinning, on the other hand, alienates the very people - those reasonable, calm, non-abusive admins - that you want to be listening to your concerns. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 19:04, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What Fluff said, really. You're twisted and hurt that we took offence at comparisons to brutal, autocratic and in many cases genocidal regimes? You didn't intend repeated citing of brutal, autocratic and genocidal regimes as things that reminded you of us to imply that we reminded you of brutal, autocratic and genocidal regimes? And that when you said "government" you didn't mean to tar all its members, or even the majority of the members, just some of the members? I'm having a hard time AGFing on all of that. I would suggest that if you don't intend for things to come out like that you try not to start a discussion by invoking godwin's law. Ironholds (talk) 19:11, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
:o( That's not what I meant. I apologise if anyone thought I was calling them, personally, names. And I didn't see this as a "me vs. them" thing, at all. So I'm a bit confused by references to "us". I note Coren said That is why I take it with a five-ton grain of salt when someone who ends up over and over on the drama boards is crying "Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" But I wasn't crying that I was being repressed, and I don't end up over and over on the drama boards ... if I were only better at expressing myself (or finding links to oppressive situations / regimes / whatevers which aren't "brutal, autocratic and genocidal "). I'm concerned; maybe I could have found better wording (but Real Life is a bi@tch and a half at the minute), and all that really happens seems to be a kinda pile-on Yell At Pesky thing. Never mind. Pesky (talk) 19:25, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The danger of speaking so metaphorically as you did, Pesky, is that it results in wide ranges of interpretation. I can see why some were offended, but I can also see where you were trying to come from. I won't speak to the specific cases that brought you here, but I will say that I support Coren's arguments. As a general rule, the first people to scream "oppression!" are often those who feel that hurling abuse at others is the most effective way of backing up their criticism. So when they get sanctioned for being abusive, they cry that it was instead due to the criticism itself. The problem at this point, IMNSHO, is not the "repressive regime", the rules or even the abusive critic. The problem is the enablers. The abusive critic rallies their supporters, earning just enough support to continue doing what they were doing. Consequently, a frustrated community reacts to the abusive critic, and you create feedback loops, hurt feelings and repetitive complaints. It is those enablers that cause these problems by not taking the abusive editor to task. Give an abusive person a sense of entitlement and invulnerability, and nothing good will come of it. It's like training an attack dog and setting them lose on the community. Resolute 20:01, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know and understand exactly what Pesky was rather clumsily tying to say at the beginning of this thread , and I, unsurprisingly, agree with it. That we have Coren talking his usual load of hypocritical bollox “’’If I ever find someone who was ousted or harassed because they held or expressed critical views, I'd be the first to take up arms to protect them. — Coren (talk) 18:45, 6 November 2012 (UTC)’’” is equally unsurprising. I can’t be arsed to find the link to prove how he behaves, but I’m sure someone can if he wants to argue it – he can be dismissed. The way Wikipedia’s leadership behaves is becoming increasingly cult-like, mysterious and unpleasant and is one of the reasons I have largely withdrawn. This blasted and ridicuous, overused Godwin’s law prevents a lot of honest opinion, to such an extent it could have been drafted by Adolf Hitler himself. Now, put that in your pipes and smoke it. Giano (talk) 19:56, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Interestingly(?) enough, you are the one salient example I was speaking of; the one case I know of of someone who became a stern critic as a result of having been wronged. — Coren (talk) 20:53, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I remember your concern well: Odd isn't it how this quote is removed from your contributuons record ~ I wish I had such magical friends [3]. Giano (talk) 22:37, 6 November 2012 (UTC):[reply]
I'm not so very magical, sadly. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:50, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cymraeg?

Are you actually Welsh? I took the liberty of translating your userpage to Welsh, but are you from the awesomest country in the world? (Ydych chi mewn gwirionedd yng Nghymru? Cymerais y rhyddid o gyfieithu eich userpage i'r Gymraeg, ond a ydych o'r wlad orau yn y byd?) --██████ 15:11, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

... and Mitt Romney is from Romney Marsh because of a coincidence of names? And Mike England, the Welsh football player, should never have played for Wales? - Sitush (talk) 15:15, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are a lot of similarly confusing people in the publishing and media world; ‪André Deutsch‬ and ‪William Henry Ireland‬ to name but two. pablo 16:03, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And then there are Americans with names like Tedeschi... William Avery (talk) 22:47, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

He likely had Celtic ancestors - it appears the name means "foreign" and was applied to Celts in England. On the other hand, on a scale of 1 to 10, how important is this? Collect (talk) 17:51, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:Communicate OER paying over $40,000 to User:Peteforsyth's company

Jimmy, it seems, from documents released by the University of Mississippi under that state's freedom of information act, that User:Peteforsyth's company, Wiki Strategies, is being paid $40,500 to coordinate the project. The details are in the following table, also posted at the project's talk page:

Activity Days Money Money per day
Project advocacy and engagement on Wikipedia, blogging, public communications 5 7,500 1,500
Recruitment, pre and post event communications, record-keeping 5 7,500 1,500
Assemble measurements of individuals' Wikipedia participation, before and after events, and assessment of article quality. Prepare final report 5 7,500 1,500
Project management 18 18,000 1,000
Total 40,500

How do you feel about this? 192.160.216.52 (talk) 17:32, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So, in short, a contractor is being paid for work they have contracted to do?--ukexpat (talk) 17:37, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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