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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 94.197.134.131 (talk) at 05:41, 13 August 2013 (→Return the title to Mega Drive). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former good articleSega Genesis was one of the Sports and recreation good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
July 5, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
March 2, 2008Good article nomineeNot listed
March 22, 2008Good article reassessmentNot listed
April 17, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
April 22, 2008Good article nomineeListed
July 5, 2010Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Delisted good article
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Merge discussion: Variations of the Mega Drive

I'm officially proposing we merge the Variations article into this one. It's about time we did this, for the following reasons:

  • The Variations article is largely unsourced and unreferenced.
  • No independent notability has been established for the multiple versions that has not been covered by this article.
  • Much of the information in the Variations article is, at best, trivial. I doubt it's very encyclopedic to note that there's a new shape to every console that one couldn't already discern from the pictures in the main article.
  • Currently, the Variations section in the main article is quite short. A paragraph for each main model change (original, Mega Drive 2 (JP)/Mega Drive II (PAL)/Genesis III(NA), Genesis 3, Firecore, etc., there's really not a lot) I think would do the job in prose rather than a bulleted list, and I can find sources for each unit. See Sega CD#Models for an idea of how I would tackle this, as I did there.
  • Recent knock-offs are likely not notable enough for entry here, anyway; those that are could go here in Variations or even with Emulation into a new combined section, "Emulation and reproductions"
  • Would eliminate a lot of WP:OR that is in the Variations article.

About the only real problem I can see is that there would be a lot of complaints from the heavily-Mega Drive people that this is their last grip on the name Mega Drive as an article name, and I'm going to suggest that List of Sega Mega Drive games be moved for the same reason "Sega Mega-CD" is now at Sega CD. Thoughts? I think this article can be strengthened by the move, another poor one that won't get any better will be eliminated, and I'd be willing to make it happen with consensus. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 20:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Its a valid content fork. There is no reason to merge all of that into this article. Its fine on its own. You'll probably just end up erasing 90% of it anyway. The game list article is 186,250 bytes. Surely you can't think you are going to merge that anywhere. No valid reason to merge either of these valid content forks. Dream Focus 20:19, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Per my reasons listed above, I would argue I do have a valid reason because of violations of WP:OR and WP:TRIVIA in the Variations article, which means it's not fine on its own because it's full of policy violations. While I do agree that it could be a valid content fork, that is not what I am contesting. I'm contesting that merging the content and getting rid of the trivia will improve the situation on the whole; a poor article without notability gets zapped and a developing main article gains more content in a section that it is sorely lacking. And yes, I would probably erase about 90% of it, but the 10% I keep would be what is notable, further benefitting the main article. You're still free to oppose, and I'm willing to accept that, but I just wanted you to know why I disagree with the content fork validity. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 20:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict)There is a lot that needs to go from that article though. Seriously, almost all of the various bullet points should go. So many of are pointless factoids like :"AV INTELLIGENT TERMINAL HIGH GRADE MULTIPURPOSE USE" printed around circle on some models, omitted on others." or detailing the "color of the reset button" on every model. Sergecross73 msg me 20:49, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support Oppose w/ Alternative: On the one hand, I totally agree that as you're cleaning up the Variations article, less and less of it seems noteworthy enough to keep there. On the other hand, people have made valid points that, if you exclude the Sega first-party console releases (Genesis models 1 and 2, Genesis 3, Mega Drive equivalents of each), the vast majority of all the variations occurred in Mega Drive territories. It seems that combining them all here could cause a bit of pollution and confusion about WP:WEIGHT, especially given the article's current title. As an alternative, is there any reason we can't change Variations into a "List of" article? Just naming the variations that aren't notable enough on their own to warrant full articles or sections should work as a good compromise, methinks. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 21:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support compromise: I support Kiefer's list idea. That should eliminate the original research, and keep the valid fork as it's a bit much, it would be a huge section in the main article.--SexyKick 22:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • If it's what is necessary to get this rectified, I will accept the list conversion and probably ramp it up to FLC at some point. However, I still disagree that this couldn't be simply merged over. I see it only taking a couple of paragraphs, as there's no need to get in-depth with the trivial factoids of every slight change between variations. It kind of sickens me that the article title is getting thrown in as a reason against this; we should be focusing on the content of the article instead of the constant tickytack issues of the name, and I don't think each variation really warrants more than one or two sentences about it in the main article. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 23:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • It's not that I have any intention of stirring up the coals on that dispute again - it's more a matter of general weight: How notable are those variations? Do they put undue weight on one side or the other? Personally, I think the first-party variations (Model 2, etc.) do belong in this article, but if we wanted to specifically mention any significant number of the third-party variations, they'd end up taking more room and drawing more attention than just a couple of paragraphs - they'd look more like a list, and at that point we might as well have a separate list. (If we decided to pare it down to just one or two examples, then I imagine there'd be a fair amount of research, discussion and probably arguing about which of those are the representative sample.) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 23:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • I think the last part is where we disagree. I honestly don't believe the third-party variations warrant more than a couple of sentences about each of them, essentially noting their existence, something unique about them, etc. Those that are that complex and offer more than simple Genesis/Sega CD compatibility do already possess their own articles (see Sega Nomad, Pioneer LaserActive, Amstrad Mega PC). In the cases of each of those, the articles already do exist that can go into depth about such units. An example of how I see each mention would be similar to the first paragraph of the section for the Mega Drive Handheld: two short and sweet sentences that describe a little about the variation and hit the most important points. As I read over all of the paragraphs, hardly any of them really require much more than that, and such a list made from that would be a pretty short list, in my opinion. To me, although I know a list can be more than 5 items to be okay, it seems to be too short to me and the amount of actual necessary and notable content too short to warrant that. I guess that's just the way I see it. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 23:34, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • There are some new licensed variations not added to the article yet that came out in 2012. AtGames just keeps pumping new stuff out. I've just been so -_- when it comes to adding more sourced information lately.--SexyKick 00:20, 3 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support compromise <Karlww (contribs|talk) 22:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge with Genesis 6-Pak

Genesis 6-Pak doesn't appear to have any independent notability from a search engine test, though it could be worth a tiny mention in the Genesis article (as a console pack-in), if appropriate. czar · · 21:17, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Merge: Yep, no notability on its own. The individual titles contained in it have their own notability, but this thing's only claim to fame was that it was the pack-in for Genesis Model 2. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 05:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since there's been no move on this in a week, I went ahead and redirected it. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 02:27, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Google Flavour text

Following on from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sega_Genesis/Archive_20#Google...

How does Google dicde what part to display for "Flavour Text"?

Searching for Mega Drive, currently gives:

Sega Genesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Genesis‎ In Brazil, the Mega Drive was released by Tec Toy in 1990, only a year after the Brazilian release of the Sega Master System. Tec Toy also ran the internet ...

Which is OK, but not the most important part of the article to focus on if you're looking for Mega Drive.

Is there anything that can be done with the article or metadata so that a more relevent part of it is picked up, such as the opening secion:

The Sega Genesis (often shortened to Genesis) is a home video game console released by Sega in 1988 in Japan (as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?)), North America in 1989 and in Europe and other regions in 1990 under the name Mega Drive ?

81.149.182.210 (talk) 23:37, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's pointless bringing up legitimate concerns, the users here are predominantly yank, bias and retarded unfortunately62.252.234.27 (talk) 16:35, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your assumption of bad faith has been noted and warned appropriately. You're free to discuss the question presented by the original poster without interjecting your thoughts of perceived bias. --McDoobAU93 16:44, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I may just be an unfortunately retarded yank, but at least I know the term you were looking for was "biased" not "bias". A person cannot be bias, he can either have a bias or be biased.76.226.143.85 (talk) 21:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Return the title to Mega Drive

I'll make this short and sweet, and am aware of the history of the article's name, however it does not fit in context with the rest of the site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Tiida

Called Tiida everywhere in the world, except for Vera in the US. The Wiki article is called Tiida.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Genesis

Called Mega Drive everywhere in the world, except for Genesis in the US. The Wiki article is called Genesis.

This site should be uniform. Given that the majority of the world referred to it as the Mega Drive, this name should have dominance over the Genesis, as this name was only adopted to the US. Mixing and matching names this way is simply a mess, and it wouldn't be called Mega Drive if all the world except for US called it Geneis now, would it? I'm not going to straight out jump in and edit it, however I believe this deserves consideration to change the title back to something that fits more uniform with the site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.11.35.133 (talk) 18:34, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Nothing new has been added, and per consensus this type of discussion without new, novel arguments is considered disruptive. Please see Item 13 in the FAQ located at the top of this page. --McDoobAU93 18:47, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • An IP address with zero other edits wishes to drag out a debate that has been beaten to death for months already. Stop being a coward and log in with your proper account if you have something to say. Dream Focus 19:15, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Context of the site is based on consensus and WP:N, not necessarily that every article must follow a specific style. See, for instance, Snow tire and Formula One tyres, which use two different forms. I argued for consistency across the Mega Drive/Genesis set because they are inter-related articles, but not in every application should every article follow the same naming conventions. In fact, if you read WP:PERENNIAL, you'll note that enforcement of American or British spelling, as one example, has never been agreed upon and the enforcement of one or the other for consistency across the site has constantly failed to gain any consensus. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 00:46, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:N Which has been used to argue that Genesis is more notable than Mega Drive is just plain wrong and relies on online sources only when there are countless offline reliable sources which support Mega Drive instead of Genesis. But there is no point arguing with these yank editors, their biased view was set long ago and no amount of valid points and rational arguments will change their warped and backward minds and these articles will remain in the cesspool of the encyclopaedia for ever62.252.234.27 (talk) 23:59, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What if we were all Canadian?--SexyKick 06:32, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Canada is just America's hat, so in that fashion, you're just a Yank's hat. --Izno (talk) 16:06, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ok 86.11, you've found A article where the American variant was not used? So what? Every article has to have a name. On Wikipedia, decisions are region-specific names are made on a case-by-case basis with little regard for consistency. I guess this is the price we pay for having different nationalities all working together. I mean, Americans aren't happy about Maize and Brits aren't happy about Gasoline, but life goes on. APL (talk) 20:36, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure I'll regret stringing this out, but the current naming results in a horrendous intro:

The Sega Genesis (often shortened to Genesis) is a home video game console released by Sega in 1988 in Japan (as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?)), North America in 1989 and in Europe and other regions in 1990 under the name Mega Drive—the name "Genesis" was used only in North America because Sega had been unable to secure legal rights to the Mega Drive name there.

Don't you cringe when you read that? Doesn't it tell you you've made the wrong choice? It was released as the Mega Drive, Sega wanted to call it the Mega Drive everywhere, Sega did call it the Mega Drive everywhere except in the USA because of a copyright conflict, and in Canada because it was easier to market it to North America than separately to the USA and Canada. If the article was titled Mega Drive, that intro would probably read:

The Mega Drive is a home video game console released by Sega in 1988 in Japan, 1989 in North America and in Europe and other regions in 1990. The console was renamed the Sega Genesis in the North American market because Sega had been unable to secure legal rights to the Mega Drive name there.

The current wording is palpably fighting against reality. GoldenRing (talk) 10:59, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the thing ... the lede can be reworked without renaming the article against standing consensus (or lack thereof), and trying to change the title simply because of your opinion that the lede isn't working (personally, I don't like how the lede reads either) itself won't work. Let's focus on rewording the lede instead of trying to change the name ... again. --McDoobAU93 14:58, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, at what point does everybody just drop the WP:STICK and actually improve the article? Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 15:15, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No one ever will. Neither name is "correct" and neither side will accept the other. The only solution is a North American focused article at Sega Genesis and a globally focused article at Mega Drive. There is enough content out there to warrant a forked article. Its just a matter of growing consensus and then making it happen. - X201 (talk) 16:08, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Except every time anyone has ever tried to reword the lede to be more like the latter example GoldenRing gave, it's been faught against and reverted by the same proponents of having "Sega Genesis" as the title on the basis that the article name must be mentioned first. So it's impossible to improve the lede at present unless A) either the title is changed to the international name of the console or B) the Genesis-diehards concede that the opening paragraph has to forgo the convention of predominantly using the article name as it's completely inappropriate in this instance. However the Genesis-proponents (who aren't even a majority, as th elast RfC was a rough split) are - for some utterly unknown reason - stubbornly refusing to budge in any way, even though it's clearly to the detriment of the article. --94.197.138.83 (talk) 19:34, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So the "improvements" you're interested in, all involve putting one name first and the other name second?
There's no possible way to write the lede in a natural, non-awkward way while keeping the article name upfront?
Even if we got the best writer in the world, the lede would still be ruined forever by the requirement of mentioning the article's name in the first sentence?
APL (talk) 19:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, the improvements I'm interested in involve rewording the lede the way GoldenRing described so it isn't the contrived mess it is now. One part of that does involve using the original, most widely used name first yes, as to do otherwise does come across as awkward and confusing. Basically the only way to continue using "Genesis" in the first instance is to mention it first then add a lengthy caveat explaining that Mega Drive is the original term - which is what the lede does at the moment. When the obviously correct way to do this is the use The original and international name first, then add a brief caveat to explain why it had a different name for one territory. The sole reason anyone would be hostile to this change is because they're involved in the Mega Drive versus Genesis debate and don't want to lose any ground to their "opponents". It's really that simple and childish. --92.40.211.252 (talk) 20:12, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why this wouldn't work for the lede (after adjustments to fill in critical details):

The Sega Genesis (often shortened to Genesis) is a home video game console released by Sega on August 14, 1989 in the United States and Canada. The console made its world debut in Japan in October 1988 as the Mega Drive; Sega was unable to secure the name Mega Drive for the console in North America and opted to market it there as Genesis instead. The console was later released in Europe in November 1990 as Mega Drive. As a fourth-generation console, the Genesis was Sega's second console to be released in North America (and third worldwide) and is the successor to the Sega Master System with which it has backward compatibility when the separately sold Power Base Converter is installed.

This should be a decent starting point for discussion on improving the lede instead of trying yet again to change the name of the article. --McDoobAU93 20:15, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Basically there are two ways to write the lead, depending on which name for the console you use first. The way it is now basically reads as:
The Sega Genesis (originally known as the Sega Mega Drive, and known in Europe/Asia/South America/rest of the world as the Sega Mega Drive, but then had to be named the Genesis in North America due to a copyright dispute)...
Or the more natural way of putting it as some people have tried to in the past and been shot down because of the stupid name argument
The Sega Mega Drive (known as the Sega Genesis in North America due to a copyright dispute)
It's entirely obvious to any reasonable and neutral person which of those options makes more sense. --92.40.211.252 (talk) 20:16, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You're free to discuss your points, but please back off from suggesting that editors who disagree with you are anything other than reasonable and neutral themselves. That is assuming bad faith and is not constructive. --McDoobAU93 20:18, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
McDoob, that lede you've proposed is still an absolute disaster for the reasons I've mentioned above. It's chronologically mangled, misleading, contrived and overly lengthy, when there's a far simpler way of putting it that you're refusing to consider due to your position on the naming debate. --92.40.211.252 (talk) 20:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your opinion has been noted, as has your continued assumption of bad faith of other editors. Let's see what other editors think and what suggestions they might offer instead. --McDoobAU93 20:21, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a thought; why even mention the copyright dispute in the lead? It's worth a mention in the development section, but there's nothing that says it has to be in the lead. Something like this, perhaps:

The Sega Genesis is a home video game console released by Sega in 1988 in Japan (as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?)), North America in 1989, and in Europe and other regions in 1990, also under the name Mega Drive. As a fourth-generation console, the Genesis is Sega's third console and the successor to the Sega Master System with which it has backward compatibility when the separately sold Power Base Converter is installed.

There, problem solved. Now, can we please stop beating the WP:DEADHORSE about the title? There was no consensus, there will never be consensus because each side thinks they're right, and the title is where it is because of WP:TITLECHANGES and no consensus to move from its current title. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 02:46, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's still poorly written because you're mentioning the one instance where it's called the Genesis first and then having to list everywhere else where it's called the Mega Drive. Also in addition to being badly written, you're now removing important information (the copyright dispute) from the lede in order to try and make it less unweildy, when again there's a much more elegant solution which is to put the names the other way round, where "Mega Drive" is used first and then the "Genesis" name is mentioned secondly and in the correct context. --94.197.134.131 (talk) 05:41, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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