Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming (6th nomination)

List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming

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Note to editors commenting here: the disputed version of the article with possible BLP issues can be seen here. The article is currently protected in a version without that material. Black Kite (talk) 19:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article is WP:OR, various editors have decided among themselves who ought to be in the list based on what these scientists have said. This is OR, as none of the BLP,s that I can see have actually stated that they oppose the consensus on AGW. As such this list is a BLP violation, as it is ascribing views to BLP,s that they themselves have not actually condoned. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:06, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This rationale has been thoroughly debated in each of the AFDs for this article since I started editing a couple years ago. There's nothing new in this nomination that I can see. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:13, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You are happy with a list article which violates BLP then? I can always gut the article if that would be easier. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:15, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like a threat to do WP:BATTLE if you don't get your way here. That's not the best way to win consensus.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:17, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

LMFAO, consensus does not override policy, specifically BLP policy. I have removed the BLP OR from the article, all that is left is the lede. Enjoy. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:24, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Jinkinson talk to me What did he do now? 18:23, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep and restrict any future AfD nominations Have you looked at the other AfD nomination. This is now the 6th time this has been nominated and each time it has been closed as kept or no consensus. Did you ever think that obviously by nominating again ITS NOT GOING TO BE DELETED. It's getting quite ridiculous going in this round about over and over again. JayJay^{What did I do?} 18:25, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What went before is not a policy I know of? How does it override BLP? Darkness Shines (talk) 18:27, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Darkness Shines is making the assertion that in previous deletion discussions, the content in this article has never been checked for BLP violation. If this is the case then this deserves consideration. On the prior history that this has been proposed for deletion many times and presumably would have been checked for BLP violations, I restored the content. This is highly contentious content which has been much discussed. The stable version of this article includes this content. It would be against consensus to delete it. Consider the possibility of BLP violation in this discussion to settle the rationale. Blue Rasberry (talk) 18:46, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I do not care what has gone before. I do know that unless sources are given for each BLP which says they "oppose the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming" it is a BLP vio. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:49, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That is a great rationale for deletion. It is not obvious to me that this is a BLP violation. If it is then it should be deleted. Instead of wanting everything deleted instantly then consider participating in this AfD discussion. You might be right and thanks for raising the issue in light of new recent discussions at similar articles which give support to what you are doing. Blue Rasberry (talk) 18:52, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

BLP vios have to be removed straight away, that is the policy. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:53, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You are not giving any rationale to why it is a BLP violation, tell me exactly where in WP:BLP that this article directly violates, otherwise I see no reason to delete. JayJay^{What did I do?} 18:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How many of those BLPs have said they "oppose the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming", none. That is a BLP vio. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:12, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You still haven't given me an exact quote from WP:BLP where this article directly violates it. Just saying it violates the BLP policy doesn't mean it does unless you give me proof or some sort of factual evidence. JayJay^{What did I do?} 19:19, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Are you not getting this? You are ascribing views to BLPs, which they themselves have not stated. That is a BLP vio, similar to BLPCAT in fact. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:25, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No I'm really not understanding your reasoning. If they have stated in some way and is proved by the reliable sources in this article that they don't believe in Global Warming is a BLP vio. It's not like we are shoving words into their mouths. JayJay^{What did I do?} 19:49, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There my friend is the point. Who decides that what "they have stated in some way" is also their rejecting the consensus? There is the OR, and the BLP violation. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:52, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Listing criteria: The notable scientists listed in this article have made statements since the publication of the Third Assessment Report which disagree with one or more of these 3 main conclusions. Each scientist included in this list has published at least one peer-reviewed article in the broad field of natural sciences, although not necessarily in a field relevant to climatology. To be included on this list it is not enough for a scientist to be merely included on a petition, survey, or list. Instead, the scientist must make their own statement." That's how, if you have a problem with that maybe you should have brought it up on the talk page. JayJay^{What did I do?} 20:04, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That is the OR, buncha eds figure, these guys fit what we say. Sorry but no, Editors do not get to decide this, sources do. We need the BLPs to actually state "we do not agree with this". Thens the rules. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:09, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well I think then this article is under a larger issue brought upon and should be resolved before we even get close to discussing its deletion don't you think? JayJay^{What did I do?} 20:14, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and restrict any future AfD nominations Can't speak as to the entire list of scientists that was just removed from the page, but the Wiki article on the very first one (Dyson) clearly states he's on record as being unconvinced about global warming and those claims are sourced. As an editor who thinks the mainstream scientific consensus is clearly correct, it's unfortunate that scientists hold AGW positions, but slashing and burning an accurate list just because you think it should be deleted is grounds for ANI action, in my opinion. 63.95.64.254 (talk) 18:55, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Update: The three scientists listed under the "GW will have few negative consequences" are all correct. The latter two have sources directly quoted in their Wiki articles and those quotes are accurate, while a cursory examination of three recent articles on the website run by the former (available as an external link in the former's Wiki article) clearly shows he fits the category. That's 4 for 4 on scientists whose positions are not misrepresented in the article in question. 63.95.64.254 (talk) 19:24, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and prohibit any future AfD nominations - Good God - 6 nominations?! The list is sourced, notable and extremely valuable for an encyclopedia of all human knowledge.- Mr X 19:23, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. tutterMouse (talk) 19:25, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. tutterMouse (talk) 19:27, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep but rename article to comply with NPOV. The current title is incendiary and clearly designed to push a POV. Roccodrift (talk) 19:39, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What would you suggest renaming it to?- Mr X 19:43, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To me that's kind of a meaningless comment without a suggested alternative.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:44, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note I have protected this page without the list of scientists involved due to edit-warring over possible BLP issues. The version with the list included can be viewed here. Black Kite (talk) 19:46, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well that makes this AfD misleading as the article is now pointless without any scientists listed in the article. Perhaps this should have been brought up to WP:BLP/N first!JayJay^{What did I do?} 19:51, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hence why I posted here. I will make a note at the top of the AfD as well. Black Kite (talk) 19:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete -per nom. Massive BLP problems, article kept in past due to the actions of POV editors. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:55, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Of course it should be kept - useful page cwmacdougall 20:01, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep -- this is surely a useful list, to the extent that it can be sourced properly. Kicking up some dust about "BLP violations" is fine, though it will take more than one or two editors' views on that topic to carry the argument. Doing an AfD as a way of kicking up some dust is rather pointy, though -- and it doesn't amount to a convincing argument for deletion. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:07, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:WASTEOFTIME as so often before William M. Connolley (talk) 20:12, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Every entry in this list has been discussed and checked by numerous editors over a long period. It is kept under continuous review. If anyone wants to challenge any entry, then please tell us which one it is, so that we can all have a look at it again, along with any new evidence, cites or quotes. BTW, how many parallel attacks on this article are being made at the present time? --Nigelj (talk) 20:49, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - The nominator has BLP problems with this page, and so gutted the article (after nominating it for deletion). Other editors reinstated the sourced material as the product of extended discussion -- an equilibrium version of the page. Nominator disregarded consensus and engaged in an edit war, all the while refusing to engage in any kind of discussion other than to spam "WP:BLP". No new arguments are being produced here beyond what there was in past AfD discussions (far worse rationale for deletion, even, in my opinion) and on the talk page(s). --— Rhododendrites ^talk | 21:21, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Not liking the name of the article is not a good reason for deletion. I think it's probably a good idea to re-explore other naming ideas, too, but that can be done separately. --— Rhododendrites ^talk | 21:21, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Rubbish, what extended discussion? Do you think people cannot read diffs? I and one other had commented on the talk page before it was protected, that was it. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:24, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What extended discussion indeed. The talk page has thirty archive pages for starters. But even if I was talking here (as I did elsewhere) about your lack of discussion and consensus building in this one particular instance, to call what you wrote on the talk page productive discussion wouldn't be very accurate. --— Rhododendrites ^talk | 21:38, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Environment-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:34, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The rationale here is BLP violation. A detailing of the specific violation is required not just blanket assertions. Keep in accordance with previous arguments and no new grounds given. The OR question has been dealt with before and as far as I can see the specifics of the policy of list inclusion have been satisfied. Dmcq (talk) 21:43, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The first scientist in the list (before it was blanked) was Freeman Dyson, and the provided reference was "Letters to a heretic: An email conversation with climate change sceptic Professor Freeman Dyson", published in The Independent. It doesn't seem like a BLP violation to include Dr. Dyson in a list of climate skeptics when there is a reliable source describing him as such. There may be a valid WP:OR concern in the categorization of scientists into different classes of skeptics, but the topic seems sound. Pburka (talk) 22:06, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Categorization of people in the encyclopedia must be based on simple, precise and unambiguous criteria that is free of all controversy and requires no consensus whatsoever. This is not a list, it's a coatrack and a biased shame vehicle with nebulous and vague requirements for membership. If a scientist has valid reasons to disagree with some criteria of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, should they be included there as well, to punish them for having a slightly different opinion? It's bad enough that as a community we can't get our shit together regarding our systemic biases and complete lack of neutrality when dealing with certain topics and people we dislike, now we have to actually showcase them in a list? A list that has a complex inclusion criteria and disclaimer at the top (because what else can one call that), and that's been at AFD six times, no less. Delete, as a BLP vio, for failing WP:OR, WP:SYNTH or anything else. This article should not exist. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 22:14, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with most of what you wrote. If the criteria were simplified to "scientists who describe themselves, or are described by reliable sources, as climate change skeptics", would it be acceptable? Pburka (talk) 22:34, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, because all real scientists are skeptics, and all scientific findings are subject to change, provided there is persuasive evidence. You have to be forever skeptical in order to look for, or notice, paradigm-busing evidence, and doing that is what wins you scientific immortality. It's the holy grail for the eggheads. So no, identification as a "skeptic" would not work. Interestingly, the outright denialists like to call themselves "skeptics" to try to whitewash themselves with this integrity. So that's another reason "skeptic" doesn't work here. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:58, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(EC) For clarification what are your referring to as a disclaimer?

Incidentally the idea that the list is intended to 'punish' anyone is a bit of a myth. If you've checked out the previous 5 AFDs or the talk page history, you'd know there are plenty of people who want the list because it shows how there are so many scientists opposed to the mainstream consensus which they believe is clearly wrong. In fact, they tend to be the most euthusatic about adding people to the list. (Although there are some who similarly believe the list does punish those on it and therefore argue for removal. And note with my earlier comment I was an am only talking about intentions, not the actual effect of the list.)

Most of those who support the mainstream consensus tend to call for balance and support keeping the list pared down although a number do support keeping the list for a variety of reasons (some may find the list a useful encyclopaedic entry, others may not find it that useful themselves but consider it a valid encyclopaedic topic and it's absence will lead to claims of bias in favour of the mainstream consensus). There may be those who support the mainstream consensus and believe we should keep the list because we need to properly document those who are opposed so people know about them, but it's definitely a rare opinion.

Notably, we tend to get people (obviously opposed to the mainstream consensus) who want to delete the list, not because they believe it punishes anyone on it but because they believe wikipedia is too biased and the list will never include all the people that should be on it or because they dispute the existance of the mainstream consensus (but still don't generally think being on the list punishes anyone, more that not being on the list punishes people).

Nil Einne (talk) 23:08, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Strongly agree with above. Article is also an obvious target for WP:BLP and WP:NPOV violations. Cogito-Ergo-Sum (14) (talk) 23:04, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Few or no sources that explicitly describe these scientists as opposed to the mainstream scientific assessment. There are also no sources (used) that show that the scientists should be lumped together; in fact their positions differ. There is a sociological literature on climate change denial and our articles should be based on that literature. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:39, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Heartland Institute and others have produced lists of scientists like this. I understand they included a lot of people without their permission who actually did agree with the consensus, but it does establish that this sort of list is notable. List inclusion criteria govern what a list like this can include in Wikipedia. Dmcq (talk) 23:29, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But these are highly unreliable sources, produced for political reasons. The existence of such things can hardly be expected to influence what we do in an encyclopaedia. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:45, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Do not change the title of this article. QuackGuru (talk) 22:55, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Keep and prohibit any further AfDs until January 1st, 2015. Enough is enough. How many AfDs does it take to demonstrate a total lack of consensus for deleting this page? A hundred? A thousand? --Guy Macon (talk) 23:53, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Other organizations have put together lists similar to this one, often with more entries. The US Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works has a list of 650 skeptical scientists in 2008, adding to Senator James M. Inhofe's list of 400 from 2007. The book The Deniers is a list of skeptical scientists. The Wall Street Journal published a list of 16 skeptical scientists. Inhofe's list of 400 has been criticized by multiple media observers:[1][2][3][4][5][6]. In short, lists such as this one are part of the conversation about climate change. Wikipedia should have a list, too. Binksternet (talk) 00:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Past AFD's are rather irrelvant. What matters is strength of argument in light of existing policies. Quotes to comply with WP:BLP are in the references section. It has been repeatedly stated in the past that anyone who finds some specific quote does not pass BLP muster, that ed should instantly delete that specific entry. So we have a correction mechanism (applying BLP on name by name basis with careful evaluation) and a process by which to do that WP:ARBCC. Wholesale protection of a battle-gutted version of the article is neither of those things. AIN'T BROKE, the proposing ed just didn't have the patience to follow established procedure and that's what this is about. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:43, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of stress has been placed on the quotes, but actually they are problematic because one short quotation is unlikely to sum up the whole position that an individual takes. An independent source would be a much better rationale for inclusion. In some cases, the individual has written a book about their view on climate change, so it would be much better to include a quotation from (or a summary of) a review of that book. It is also essential for BLP purposes to be sure that the individual hasn't changed their opinion. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:53, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Those things would be even stronger/better, I agree. But nothing you said really negates what I wrote. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:04, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. A BLP nightmare. Gamaliel (talk) 01:55, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I would further note that there are many global warming articles that we should be discussing deleting, or proposals which should be abandoned, including such beauties as "Climate Change in South Ossetia"; there is far too much duplication, and far too many articles for editors to monitor properly. This useful article is not one of them; it should be kept. cwmacdougall 2:08, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Delete as WP:OR and a WP:BLP violation. The extremely precise consensus in the lede (The global average surface temperature has risen 0.6 ± 0.2 °C since the late 19th century ... the warming will also continue, with temperatures projected to increase by 1.4 °C to 5.8 °C between 1990 and 2100) is fictional. Many professional climate scientists disagree slightly with those numbers. Even the IPCC (in their last report) would be climate change sceptics according to this ridiculous WP:OR definition. -- 101.119.28.133 (talk) 04:11, 31 December 2013 (UTC) — 101.119.28.133 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

I find it intriguing how a IP that has no edits knows so much about WP:OR and WP:BLP. JayJay^{What did I do?} 04:49, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The really funny thing is that the science-section of the "last report" isn't out yet! NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 08:17, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. As said before, a BLP nightmare. Also, even if it is not the reason for the article's creation nor was such ever considered in its progression, it strongly smacks of being a shame page for those that were listed. Aside from that, I cannot imagine an encyclopedic reason for such an article to exist, especially when it's counter-article List of scientists supporting the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming no longer exists (even if RfD'd for completely different reasons). — Huntster (t @ c) 08:30, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete A BLP nightmare with the names in, the current version is almost speediable as no content. Prohibiting future nominations is also against this policy. Dark Sun (talk) 10:51, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]