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1978–1990 → The Go-Betweens 1978–1990 – Apologies for burdening RM with another year title, but the biography of the band and the Mojo Collection treat "The Go-Betweens 1978–1990" as the full title David Nichols The Go-Betweens p.217 "July 1990 saw the release of The Go-Betweens 1978-1990 on double LP, 217 218 CD, and cassette (each with a slightly different track listing) in a number of key territories. This collection marked the first album release of several tracks which Forster and MacLennan clearly thought of as important to their story including "The Sound of Rain" which they had recorded for Beserkley twelve years earlier" and The Mojo Collection: 4th Edition p.530 "Further listening: Liberty Belle And The Black Diamond Express (1986); Tallulah (1987); Go-Betweens 1978–1990 (1990); Robert Forster – Danger In The Past (1990)." Likewise Colin Larkin The Virgin encyclopedia of eighties music 1997 Page 210 ...also per WP:RECOGNIZABILITY that the subject of the article be recognizable to the generally informed reader, not the absolute specialist. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:39, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support: The idea that an expression that seems to clearly be a simple description of a span of time should be the name of some article about an album is just darn silly – and especially silly when there are other albums named after the same span of time. —BarrelProof (talk) 02:56, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Both titles are found, but let's compare Google Books results:
The short title clearly predominates. Per WP:AT, we should choose the title that is more recognizable, more natural and more concise. As to recognizability, that is the title that people are more likely to encounter outside of WP. As to naturalness, the fact that the proposed title is a redlink speaks volumes to its naturalness. And conciseness speaks for itself. Nothing silly about using the actual title of a topic for the article on that topic. Dohn joe (talk) 03:10, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Right so you agree, "both titles are found", both titles are used, both titles are okay, yes? So of the two titles which is more helpful to readers appearing in search results: (A) 1978–1990 (B) The Go-Betweens 1978–1990? Each will redirect to the other so the only issue is which is more helpful. Which is more helpful? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:04, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, clearly the one that predominates in reliable sources. The one that our readers are more likely to encounter in real life. The one that they are more likely to search for, and that editors are more likely to link to. Again, if the proposed title were really more helpful, would it have been a redlink for nearly seven years? And as you say, the other will redirect. So why not the keep the one that is more helpful? The seven-years' stable title? Dohn joe (talk) 01:20, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I thought I was being specific, but I'll try again. The album title that readers are likelier to encounter in the real world - "1978-1990" - will be more recognizable to readers as the title of the article. Someone going to the All Music Guide to Rock, p. 468, or the other 70% of reliable sources, will find a listing for 1978-1990, and will naturally expect to find the article at 1978-1990. Dohn joe (talk) 02:46, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't answer the question. Please read the question again: how specifically is (A) 1978–1990 more WP:RECOGNIZABLE to readers than (B) The Go-Betweens 1978–1990? Even the few dozen readers who hypothetically have gone to the 11 sources you prefer will have been reading entries that said "The Go-Betweens.... 1978-1990", they will have "The Go-Betweens..." in their mind and be looking for a "The Go-Betweens..." compilation. When they search on this and get (A) 1978–1990 or (B) The Go-Betweens 1978–1990 how specifically is 1978–1990 more recognizably The Go-Betweens compilation album than The Go-Betweens 1978–1990. Put another way, how does "The Go-Betweens" make recognition of the Go-Betweens compilation album more difficult for anyone? You seem to be arguing that there's a kind of album fan out there who wants to listen to a compilation of a band from these years 1978-1990 but can only remember the years not the band, and will be confused and obstructed by "The Go-Betweens" appearing before "1978-1990".
Third time's a charm? From WP:RECOGNIZABLE: "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural." Here, "1978-1990" is the most commonly used name, as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources. Thus, WP prefers its use, as "1978-1990" will be the most recognizable name to your readers. That, specifically, is why "1978-1990" is more WP:RECOGNIZABLE than "The Go-Betweens 1978-1990". Dohn joe (talk) 13:44, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In some (or even many) sources, the shorter name may be used in context, where the band is mentioned along with the album, and it's obvious what's being referred to. Taken out of all context, such as in the name of a Wikipedia article, the current title is not recognizable as the name of an album. It's simply a range of years. So, no, the current title is not more recognizable than the proposed title -- rather, the reverse. Omnedon (talk) 14:08, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean, taken out of all context? A WP title is almost always found in context. It will be a direct link from another article discussing the band or album, in context. It will be a search result showing the first lines of the article, in context. People coming across this title will almost certainly know it belongs to the context of the Go-Betweens. Dohn joe (talk) 14:37, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia article titles should not depend that heavily on context for recognizability. They may not always need to be recognizable to someone unfamiliar with the subject matter, but they should not be completely cryptic or downright misleading when viewed outside of a narrow context. In fact, it may even be desirable for them to sometimes convey some information in addition to serving as a string label for computer program identification purposes. —BarrelProof (talk) 15:29, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I feel a little personally invested in this one. Had I found the article titled "1978-1990", I would have clicked on it, wondering aloud, "What possible historical significance could such a periodization have?" Upon discovering that it was merely the title of an album I've never heard of, nor ever would want to hear of, I would have felt misled, my time wasted. I am someone who cares deeply about history, and the art of conceptualizing it; at the same, I care little for obscure music. I would be one of the victims of this current title, robbed of my valuable time by a hopelessly confusing name. Analysis of guidelines is not necessary for me on this one (though WP:ASTONISH obtains.) I know the encyclopedia would be better if people like me were not misled. This is true for any range of dates that might serve as an album title. Xoloz (talk) 16:39, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Under the former we have "The title is sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects" with 'precise' leading to "Usually, titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that". 1978-1990 is precise enough to meet these conditions. The section further describes use of naming conventions which provide exception to the Precision criterion. Is there a naming convention for this situation? Or, are you intending to create such a convention?
Under the latter we have "The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects". Later we have "The goal of conciseness is to balance brevity with sufficient information to identify the topic to a person familiar with the subject area". A person familiar with the subject, i.e. The Go-Betweens, has sufficient information with 1978–1990 to identify the topic, i.e. an album by that group. If there was another article with 1978-1990 then use a dab e.g. ''[[1978-1990 (album)|]]'' or similar. If there is an applicable naming convention being contravened then point to it.
As for your cute little test re: "1986–1996". The hover setting meant I saw BMW S38 without clicking: does this mean I pass? As for an album with that actual title (as opposed to say, Janet Jackson or Poison, compilations with it as part of their title) I don't recognise the album. I suspect that I am not sufficiently familiar with the subject area.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:51, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
To those of us who support this proposal, the current title isn't clearly (recognizably) an album. Yes, it is the actual name of the album, but that name is ambiguous (unclear/unrecognizable) in comparison to an historical range of dates. For the purposes of an encyclopedia, the actual title of the album is inadequate in certain key respects, so it must be disambiguated. Xoloz (talk) 16:49, 25 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The image of the album cover actually says, "The Go-Betweens" and "1978-1990" below that. The article title "1978-1990" communicates nearly nothing about the content of the article. Omnedon (talk) 01:34, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The cover gives The Go-Betweens as the artist not as its title nor part of its title. The artists chose the album title to be 1978–1990, wp should accurately reflect the artist's preferred title which is also its most commonly referred title, unless a disambiguation is required e.g. ''[[1978–1990 (The Go-Betweens album)|1978–1990]]'' due to another article of the same name. There is no such need here.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:39, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:NC. What next? Albums listed by catalog numbers? I mean catalog numbers are original, easily recognizable (!) and completely avoids the need for disambiguation. --Richhoncho (talk) 07:32, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Check 90125 which is an album named for its catalogue number. Why isn't this re-named Yes 90125 to cater for people who think 90125 is an area code? Note for Omnedon: the album cover has Yes printed above the numerals but this does not make it part of its title.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 06:26, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Response to shaidar cuebiyar. A date range can refer to anything, including, unfortunately, dates on tombstones, length a business was trading, a war, politics, literally anything, whereas 90125 is rather limited, and, I am pleased to say, does not affect me in the slightest. It's quite silly not to use alpha numerical for postcodes, at least that way we all know where we are (approximately)! BTW, The correct catalog number is 7-90125 for the American release of 90125! --Richhoncho (talk) 08:34, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Four digits dash four digits can refer to lots of other things besides dates: e.g. it could be an issn or even a range of post codes! As for Yes-related material see also Trevor Rabin's album, 90124 from 2003. While 90126 is part of the catalogue number for an album by four members of Yes.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 09:21, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Response to shaidar cuebiyar. Fair enough, I assume you will be striking your opposition to the retitling of this article in view of your comment above. I shall ignore the Yes album on the grounds that other stuff exists. --Richhoncho (talk) 10:09, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nah. 1978–1990 is more precise, concise and recognisable than the alternative. Just as 90125 is better than Yes 90125 as a title for that album. Likewise just because other stuff exists for 1978–1990 that doesn't mean the article title has to be changed to a less precise, concise or recognisable form.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:32, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Response to shaidar cuebiyar. You wrote, "Four digits dash four digits can refer to lots of other things besides dates: e.g. it could be an issn or even a range of post codes!" which means you do think the present title is NOT recognisable. I despair. --Richhoncho (talk) 10:38, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I use recognisable per "The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize". Somebody familiar with the subject easily recognises it as their compilation album. See also Dohn joe's discussion of context, above.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:53, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Coming at the issue from the opposite direction, isn't it possible that someone "familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in" the subject of the year 1978 (or the year 1990) could be confused by this title? That is my contention, and my reason for holding this title ambiguous. There is more than one possible subject signified by this title. Xoloz (talk) 16:16, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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