Talk:Nephilim

Nephilim Descended from Elohim

This is not an advertisement from a psychic tarot card reading snake oil vendor, this is an Elohim head sitting on the moon, taken from an Apollo 17 mission video. In the public domain. And that is relevant to the discussion as the Nephilim were descended from the Elohim. Deleting the data will not make it go away. I am sorry you do not like the data, but that won't make it go away either. And as science must contend with the data, you do not serve science by deleting the data from Wikipedia. You merely serve to make Wikipedia irrelevant, when hundreds of thousands of people see this image in places like youtube, and from the Apollo 17 website. Also the other related data which I posted, was not speculation either but actual scientific data. Censoring scientific data is not part of the Wikipedia mindset. I will not bother to repost it, but people may view it in the history if they so wish.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Rick S33555 (talk • contribs)

It's just a rock on the moon. And please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~). --Ghostexorcist 10:16, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Signed as requested Rick S33555 10:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

And as far as your opinion goes as for it being just a rock, well thats your opinion and I will fight for you to have your opinion, and I will fight for others to have theirs as well. Censoring the data is not the same as voicing your opinion and NASA is as credible a source as you can get. And there is more data, which you have censored, such as the image of the Anunaki, (see history) and if that is just a natural rock formation, then so is Mount Rushmore. Further and pursuant to all that, show me the tablets.

Rick S33555 10:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

It's just a picture of a rock on the moon from a screenshot of a clip from youtube, which is a blacklisted site on wikipedia because it regularly breaks copyright laws. It is not a WP:Reliable Source. Yes, Mount Rushmore is a natural rock formation, the faces carved into it are not. Show you the tablets? --Ghostexorcist 10:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Well I personally do not own a satellite, and so as such, cannot show you a satellite image from space, but I can show you coordinates, so that you can go and use google earth, and see this for yourself. 15,10,21,56 S and 75,14,32,12 W at an eye elevation of 14 miles.

That is an Anunnaki, and part of the same discussion, which includes the origin of the Nephilim.

I posted an image, from an Apollo 17 video, I did not post a link to youtube. The image is in the public domain as all NASA footage is in the public domain. Granted, the video did appear there on youtube where I obtained it and fair use dictates I show the source, but the footage is NASA footage.

And my reference to show me the tablets is a common expression because the belief in the 10 commandments is well known, but they do not physically exist. No hard data only hearsay evidence. So it is unfair, to censor actual physical evidence when much of the subject matter in this topic is hearsay evidence. It seems to me that you are taking a biased opinion based on preconceived notions and not allowing others to make up their own minds what the data means. The head there on the moon is a giant head, and as such is one of a few examples of giant heads that may be shown here. So I submit that you should really allow the facts to speak for themselves and not allow your personal opinions to interfere with the honest pursuit of the facts.

As for no published data on this subject you can read Zechariah Sitchin and countless other well documented texts by PhD's in many scientific fields of endeavor. Rick S33555 11:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I say again, it's a screenshot from youtube. It's not reliable. How can anyone read about the "published data" if you don't offer citations? --Ghostexorcist 11:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry for being difficult, but I find it very annoying when the scientific facts are treated with such disrespect. People went to the moon and they brought back evidence such as this and for you to dismiss it as nonsense flies in the face of their heroic effort in mankind's pursuit of the truth.

Here is the screen capture taken just now from one of the videos which depicts the head. http://s2.supload.com/free/VideoandlocationofElohimHead-10-10-2007.jpg/view/ Here is a link to the video. http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/a17v.1652245.rm Here is the page the video is on so you can do your own further research of you wish... I will even narrow it down for you to geology station 6. http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/video17.html#station6

And as far as references to texts are you suggesting that Zecharia Sitchin is not a scholar?

"Zecharia Sitchin was born in Russia and raised in Palestine, where he acquired a profound knowledge of modern and ancient Hebrew, other Semitic and European languages, the Old Testament, and the history and archeology of the Near East. He is one of the few scholars who is able to read and understand Sumerian. Sitchin attended and graduated from the University of London, majoring in economic history. A leading journalist and editor in Israel for many years, he now lives and writes in New York.""

And are you suggesting also that Von Daniken is a crackpot? Why? Because he dares to mention relics that he finds on his journeys around the world, having researched in the field, first hand for over 30 years. Spoken to countless people in locales and studied their traditional legends and mythology. He has done more field work that any Harvard archaeologist. Just because his opinions do not match yours is no reason to vilify him or his work.

Do you have some explanation for that 4 mile long rock art sculpture of an Anunnaki at those coordinates in google earth I gave you or for the Elohim head found by Apollo 17? So why then do you revile these men who _do have an explanation? I will tell you why, because you are afraid of that which confronts you and so you wish to minimize it by relegating it to the fringe and offering guilt by association to somehow discredit the ideas of men who spent their entire professional careers studying these subjects. Read em and weep. The locations are there I have provided them at the NASA website and you have censored data and have shown yourself to be not a fair judge in this matter. Unqualified to delete my posts.

Rick S33555 12:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I do have an explanation for the 4 mile long rock art sculpture: It's a rock. You still have not provided correct citations to support your claims. --Ghostexorcist 12:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Well I have shown you an Elohim head on the moon. From Apollo 17 footage, and you might ask then well where is his birth certificate and of course I cannot provide that and you could then say well where is his passport? And I could not provide that either. If you ask for his citizenship from some alien planet I am afraid that he is without his wallet, so then what sort of citation could I provide that would satisfy you? Although Zecharia Sitchin and numerous other people have written extensively on their translations of the Sumerian texts and Biblical texts, no citation says expect to find an Elohim head on the moon. Although there are plenty of references to the moon and even in Indian mythology with the Ramayana, where a battle is fought on the moon. So then you dismiss the rock art of the Anunnaki. And you say it is a rock. Yes, a rock with a clear depiction of a person, who with his right hand is holding up two fingers and with his left hand has his index finger as a missile. And so then to explain that all to you, so that you can see how that fits in with other archaeology would take some time if you are a nay sayer, as nay sayers just deny the evidence. So extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence and these two things I have already shown you are quite extraordinary. Above and beyond extraordinary. And so then giving you more coordinates in google earth to yet more Anunnaki I can do. Here beside that one, is the smoking gun. (You have no idea what you are dealing with here) And keep in mind, you are almost asking for proof of God here. So don't say to me, that that is just too incredible. 14,58,55,43 S and 75,22,14,43 W eye elevation of 11.47 miles and rotate clockwise 10 degrees to the east for proper orientation.

And so then I can show you how these water bringer Gods, the Anunnaki, who fired the missiles, tie in with the Elohim, where one impacted, and where one is still sitting on the moon, which did not detonate, and how this all fits into their battle with the Elohim, and how as has been claimed by many, that there was a flood of sorts which resulted in the demise of the Nephilim their creation. But if you delete everything, including references to where that other missile is, and the relics which depict this story in Egyptian archaeology and Sumerian studies, well then how can I show the information so that people will be able to understand the connections between the Elohim, the Anunnaki, and the Nephilim?

Rick S33555 13:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

"Well I have shown you an Elohim head on the moon. From Apollo 17 footage..." You have shown me a rock on the moon from a screenshot from a blacklisted website.

"Although there are plenty of references to the moon and even in Indian mythology with the Ramayana, where a battle is fought on the moon." I am well aware of the events of the Ramayana because I have initiated several Hindu-mythology related articles.

You still have not provided credible proof for your claims. I think the overall problem I have with your "original research" is your claim about gods firing missiles at one another. I have to request you stop posting here like wikipedia is a forum. If you want to make valuable edits to the main article with verifiable sources, please feel free to do so at any time. --Ghostexorcist 14:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

This NASA website is not a blacklisted website. Here is a link to the video. http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/a17v.1652245.rm Here is a screenshot. http://s2.supload.com/free/VideoandlocationofElohimHead-10-10-2007.jpg/view/

You are not being reasonable. I am just trying to show you evidence of the Nephilim, which I'll admit, some believe are mythical creatures, who were created by God, and so you ask for evidence that God did it, from a what a scientific journal? Well the good lord works in mysterious ways and he has made some rock art for you that tells the story and that is his citation. Here is another one, fair use policy I won't make you look up the coordinates, it is there by Nazca as well. http://s2.supload.com/free/NazcaHead-9-5-2007.jpg/view/

So hear me out. Two missiles were fired at the moon because the Elohim were mining into the moon, and were destroying the gene pool with genetic engineering (Biblical reference Genesis Elohim and the daughters of men etc) one went off and created Aitken Basin and punctured the moon causing water to outgass from the moon and it fell on the earth in vast quantities. The Nephilim which were on the earth, were forced to the equator where competition for food made them extinct along with the megafauna. If you examine these artifacts, the Narmer Palette and the Victory Stele at Naram-Sin you will see depictions of those two missiles. The Water Bringer God symbolism is in many relics from the Middle East and Peru such as the dead link] La Venta Stele etc.

I'll admit that I am not expert on Wikipedia style and that is why when I did post to the page I just forwarded the information here for discussion on how to present this data. So here is a link to the water bringer Gods as well, and if someone can piece this information together in Wikipedia fashion, then that would be nice because it is relevant data. And also, Zecharia Sitchin and Von Daniken should not be merely placed in the popular culture heading but rather in a separate heading The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis. I have seen this site used in Wikipedia but I post it here simply because I can't provide every reference for Zecharia Sitchins work etc. Perhaps someone else can. http://www.crystalinks.com/godswaterbuckets.html

Rick S33555 14:49, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Basically, you have demonstrated to me that you have no textual citations to support your original research. You can show me all of the moon rock formation photos and stelae you want, but it still doesn't help your case. --Ghostexorcist 14:55, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

To an extent, whether the rock is what it is claimed to be or not is irrelevant. What matters is whether there are reliable sources which specifically argue that it is, and whether inclusion of that information on this page would raise concerns about the idea receiving undue weight. So far as I have seen, there has yet to be presented any evidence that any reliable source has made the claim regarding the rock that you make, or any of the other claims you put forward as well. On that basis, the content cannot be responsibly added to wikipedia. If and when a reliable source does make such a contention, then there would be no objection to including the information somewhere in wikipedia, maybe here, maybe elsewhere. However, until and unless a reliable source, as defined by the WP:RS page makes that contention, and provided the content does not place undue relative weight on the theory as per WP:Undue weight, we cannot by policy include such content in any article. John Carter 15:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I just can't even imagine a source that could make that claim besides me the pope and God, and so I guess I will bow to your wishes unless you might somehow suggest what a reliable source might look like on the earth that could identify that as an Elohim? You and I both know the journal Nature is not going to publish any article of that nature and also I cannot even post image snapshots from google earth, so I guess at the end of the day Wikipedia is not flexible enough to deal with the real world and the facts as they present themselves. Thanks for your time. Rick S33555 17:20, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:Reliable source answers your question. --Ghostexorcist 19:59, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Well this is the only reliable source I have for you. But of course it doesn't say what it is, and so it requires a great deal of understanding to know what it is. Thats Hecate, thats the underworld and thats an Elohim head with bat wings to signify Catholicism. And I can pass that information on, but its not satisfactory for Wikipedia's guidelines regarding reference to that specific head in question and as such, I am sure you understand that I would be unable to prove that it is, and so once again I have to just leave it to others to write scholarly texts and then perhaps it can be used. Rick S33555 18:57, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

This is some kind of trolling, scifi, role-playing, whatever other kind of spam[1]. Just auto-revert it. 24.243.3.27 (talk) 18:37, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

"I got a rock." -- Charles Brown, It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown (1966)  Mr JM  02:19, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Please God, may I never sit next to this man on a ten-hour flight!PiCo (talk) 05:27, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Singular

What is/would be the singular form in Hebrew? I assume Nephilim is a plural, like Elohim (I need this information for a work of fiction). Could someone provide the Latin (i.e. regular), Greek and, ideally, Hebrew script versions?

Thank you
David Latapie (✒ | @) — www 18:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Depending on which etymology your using either נפל or פלא. נפל is averb though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolf2191 (talk • contribs) 19:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

The transliteration of the above Hebrew (נפל) is N-F-L, so using the niqqud from נְּפִלִ֞ים (N-F-L'M. "Nephilim") it would be rendered "Nephil." Latin (Jerome's translation) is gigantes meaning "giant." Greek (Septuagint) is the same, just the Greek version (γίγαντες, "gigantes"). 24.243.3.27 (talk) 18:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Can Nephilim (the plural form) be used as a singular? The article says 3. Webster's 1913 Dictionary defines the word simply as "Giant." Thus, any especially tall, powerful, large, or mighty man would be described in ancient times as Nephilim. Nephilim may simply mean "giant," champion, or strong man. 4. The term might not refer to any specific race or group of people but is a label similar to "hero," a legendary figure, or "great man." Is that (plural form to mean one individual) just an instance of barbarism, or does the Bible use it in singular like Elohim?--87.162.33.234 (talk) 20:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Popular culture section

I've removed most of this. Some was blatant self-promotion, some was pure trivia. I'm not convinced that any of it that is left is 'culturally significant'. WP:POPCULTURE says "should contain verifiable facts of genuine interest to a broad audience of readers. Although some information can be verified from primary sources, this does not demonstrate whether such information has been discussed in independent secondary sources. If a cultural reference is genuinely significant it will be easy to find a secondary reliable source to attribute that judgment. Quoting a respected expert as attesting to the importance of a subject as a cultural influence is encouraged." So, that still needs to be done for what's left. --Doug Weller (talk) 08:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Doug, if you're interested and have the time, the entire article needs to be re-written. It needs to begin with describing the oldest literature in which the term is used (Genesis, Jubilees, Enoch), the dates of these (all Second Temple), and the meaning of the word. The final article would be only a quarter the length of this. PiCo (talk) 07:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Whoah, whoah, PiCo, how about including some of the other editors on this little project you just announced? Or is it one of those "exclusive" projects? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:27, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't get mad Til - it was simply that Doug started the thread and I was replying. I have the greatest respect for your knowledge of Jubilees/Enoch, and anything you have to say is always of value. PiCo (talk) 13:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I am irritated beyond belief that you've removed the Pop Culture section! Regardless if YOU think it's trivial, it is not your right to censor what others have put out here as potential references to this topic in pop culture! I find it irritating, egotistical and ridiculous that you took it upon yourself to decided which references were worthy or posting and which were not. It is actually IMPORTANT to me and my project to know that there are comic books, books, tv shows and movies being made on the topic and for you to have just decided that they were self promoting and therefore not worthy is (something for the reader to decide based on their reason for looking it up!) nuts. Seriously, get a grip and PLEASE return the info to the page (you can put your comments on the "worthiness" on each reference if you want, but to delete it all is not your perrogative.). Some of us out here are actually researching stuff beyond the facts as YOU know them and would prefer the article to be overly inclusive rather than exclusive. Do you have any idea how much time doing research you have created for me??? UURRGGHHHH!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.89.6.4 (talk) 15:38, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but the fact that it something is useful for someone's project has nothing to do with whether it should be in a Wikipedia article. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia basically reporting on what reliable and verifiable sources have to say about a subject. This does not mean that pop culture stuff shouldn't be in an article, but your needs are not a reason to include it. dougweller (talk) 20:28, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits linking Nephilim to UFO phenomena

I've reverted this. The bit about 'growing number' had no source. Superior Books and Xlibris are self-publishing houses [2] as is Anomalos [3] and ThinkAgain just seems to be the creation of the authors. dougweller (talk) 06:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone else ever noticed this?

If you look at the way the text is written, it basically just says "the sons of god did it with the daughters of man, and the nephilim were on the earth in those days" technically there's no causative relationship between those two. It might even just be saying "back in the time of heroes, the sons of god got it on with the daughters of man" . are there any, like, sources from biblical scholars regarding this? Not that it would solve anything, it'd actually raise even more questions if they were unrelated... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.70.113 (talk) 00:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Nephilims in Sumerian creation myth

This should only be in the article if it can be based on reliable, academic sources. I was about to revert it myself, and have removed it from another [[Watcher {Angel}]]. Dougweller (talk) 13:17, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

The IP editor that added them recently said they were from Sumerian translations, but none of the sites he provided gave those translations. If he can provide those translations that actually say what he's claiming, I'll shut up. As it is, he has provided thee websites as references in the article, all three use Zecharia Sitchin as acceptable sources (two mention him by name). A fourth source that he provided in an edit summary, http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/, is a legit site, but he does not bring up the text that he is refering to, and it is his responsibility to show us the text that supports his claims. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:37, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Why I keep removing the 'Nephilims in Sumerian creation myth' section

The three sites given as sources, http://theanunaki.blogspot.com/2009/04/anunnaki-and-creation-of-mankind.html, http://www.crystalinks.com/sumergods.html, http://www.livingwithsoul.com/god-myth.htm all use ideas ultimately derived from Zecharia Sitchin. They do not actually present the translated Sumerian texts that would support their claims. The first site is on blogspot, which is not an acceptable source for wikipedia because anyone can start a blogspot page with anything on there (and it is not under any sort of review like wikipedia is). The second page is concerned with conspiracy theories about the 2012 armageddon, reptilians, and other fantasies. The third page cited is an advertisement, which is unacceptable. http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/ is a legitimate site, but the actual texts to support the claims I keep removing are never presented. It is not my job to look for the evidence of those claims, it is the job of the person making the claim to show his evidence. SO far, he has only been showing other websites that he agrees with that do not show their evidence either. If I said that novel Moby Dick has the character Darth Vader in it, it would be my job to show where in Moby Dick that Darth Vader is mentioned, and simply linking to other sites that say "Darth Vader is in Moby Dick" or "George Lucas was influenced by Hermann Melville" would not work because they are not actually showing where Darth Vader is in Moby Dick. If this happened, it would only be sane to assume that Darth Vader is NOT mentioned in Moby Dick. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:58, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with you Ian. I was in the process of reverting the page, but you beat me to it. The edit summary I left was thus: "The point is that this is Wikipedia and everything needs a source. Personal knowledge of the pervaliance of various gods in Summerian texts is not the same as a scholarly source attesting to that fact."

Those sources do sound very unreliable. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 15:06, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Exactly, it's not the Annunaki or the Enuma Elish I have a problem with, its that they actually are not being brought up in their original form but in fantasy websites. If an example of the word Nephalim being used in Sumerian texts was found, or even a common intermarraiges of humans and supernatural beings leading to a flood could be found in the actual translations of the texts (instead of websites claiming to have read them), I would be fine with that. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:15, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

agree and would have reverted. Unfortunately Ian is now over 3RR (I can understand why but it creates a problem), and I've taken this to ANI [4] where hopefully someone will do something. If I wasn't involved I would have protected the page. Dougweller (talk) 15:35, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I've semi-protected the article for 3 days. I expect the IP to enter into dialogue here over the insertion of the section. For that reason I have not blocked the IP yet. Should no discussion take place, or the editing continues after the block expires, then a block will be enacted on the IP. Mjroots (talk) 15:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Why I have putting back the 'Nephilims in Sumerian creation myth' section

It's me, the "unsourced-one"..:) Guys I appreciate your efforts to keep Wikipedia clean and trustworthy, I also think it is very important. But looking at the tons of articles on Wiki, that have even less sources, claiming wilder things that we can imagine, I begin to wonder...If I didn't know that, this article is a part of "WikiProject Judaism", what is "a collaborative effort to "improve" the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia", and I didn't know that hebrews dont really like to remember the origins of their "own" stories, I'd be also much more understanding and helpful with sources and in everything you want from me. Since I'm just as much the same editor of Wiki as You are, personal opinions doesn't really matter, there's not any "leading-opinion" in a topic which nowone knows about wheter it is about a real thing or the whiole thing is just a fairy tale. In connection with an article like that, asking me to "prove" anything, and "show sources" about, I think is a little harsh from you. We don't have too many sources about it. We have the Bible, which tells us they are called Nephilims and they "had sex" with woman. Based on this, who on Earth can tell about any other source that, it is "not based on facts". Anyway, the story in the Bible is based on facts? Can you prove it? No, you cannot. It is just an idea about them, if they even existed. What you're doing with the immediate delete of my addition, saying that is "not proven" I think a little ridiculous. I know this Sitchin guy wrote two hundred books about Niburu and other things (I dont really believe in), but the FACTS he built his work on are FACTS. Of course he coloured them, made them ready to be sold for the brainless, but the Anuna gods, Enki, Enlil, the story of creation by them is existed and can easily be found in ANY sumerian source. Ian deleted my posts and proving that he thinks ALL the words came from me are Sitchin's, and deleted without thinking through, what parts of it is exactly wrong or misinterpreted, and what parts are 100% facts. If Ian liked this article and wanted to know the truth, he should be happy about getting a clue, where to search more. But he didn't do, he just deleted the whole thing, which SEEM to smell like Sitchin. To clear things up: Actually, very hard to find a text which DOESNT mention Anuna gods. Creation in the sumerian myths is something that anyone can read who has eyes, in many sources. If Ian would be a fair editor, even if he thought that all my words came from Sitchin, he could have deleted my insertions, adding a short sentence at the bottom of the page, that: "There are sumerian texts that are not just 2 vague sentences that we've been talking about here for pages, that - according some ezoteric/crazy/etc. guys - can explain the whole overcomlicated thing here.", or sg like that, not so ironic...:) But he just simply deleted my article, saying that he is not the actor of the article, but an editor of Wiki, he wont search for any clues, he just deletes what is wrong. But if he never searches, it is not easy to say what is wrong I think. Editors dont have just 2 options, "leave it or delete". An editor has the responsibility of correcting, what is wrong, and leaving what is right. I dont think my additions didnt contain ANY right, but Ian' s deletion of the whole thing tell everybody its wrong completely, which I didnt liked ,and put my article back as many times as he deleted it in his blind anger. im not a "pirate" on Wikipedia, I just would like everybody to know about an other possibility, that might explain some thing. Zoltan_Bereczki (talk) 16:21, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Show us where in any Sumerian texts there is anything resembling the stories of the Nephilim. You have yet to show us anything. You have shown that you do know where to look for translations of Sumerian texts, so you have access to those texts, but you still do not show evidence for your statements. This is not about whether or not the Bible is "true." The issue is did the Sumerians have similar legends, which you keep saying but have not been able to show. Even if you realize that Sitchin is an unreliable source, the sources you provided use him as a source, which makes them unreliable. This isn't about if there texts that mention the Annunaki, we all know that there the issue is whether or not there are legends about the Annunaki that are similar to the legends about the Watchers and the Nephalim. You have not shown any legends about them that are, you hve only shown sites that do not show any such legends either. It is not my job to search for clues for your claims, that is your job. You made the claims and provided unreliable sources for those claims, it is your job to look for reliable sources.

Would it be responsible for me to put something in the Moby Dick article to the effect that Darth Vader is present in the book Moby Dick? Would it be responsible for me to do so using websites that used material rejected by scholars, especially a personal website and a site advertising a book? Would it be responsible for me to tell others to go look in Moby Dick for Darth Vader instead of giving them the citation myself? No, none of those things would be responsible. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:38, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

"...we all know that there the issue is whether or not there are legends about the Annunaki that are similar to the legends about the Watchers and the Nephalim..."

That's exactly why I didnt like the way you've been handling my addition. You clearly state that you do know that Anunnaki legends are similar to the Nephilim story. I cannot understand you, when you've been working (=deleting) on this article for a while, but you still don't think its worth writing at least a single sentence about this? What is your point with this article? What is the point of all the article on Wiki? As an editor of Wiki, isn't it a part of your job to let Wiki readers get a full picture? A single sentence is not too much to write, if you have been always aware of that, there is a slight possibility that Anunnaki and Nephilim might be the same. That's what I dont like and feel a little arrogant that you delete something or not, but you never correct nothing? You were able to check my refs, in the same time you could also correct it, or write that single sentence, that would note the possibility of what we are talking about. But you just deleted the whole new content. If all the editors do like this, of course, a lot of unreliable information get blocked, but how many interesting, fresh, less dull (I mean, not copy-pasted from any encyclopedia) contain lost forever? Just because the author is not able to interpret it in the correct form, or an author uses one single unreliable refs, but on the other hand many new ideas - maybe very substantial - would be thrown out the window? Thats what I dont like the method you follow during editing. If you dont feel responsible for this, I think you are not the perfect one to be an editor here or anywhere. Anybody could delete things that not in the correct format without thinking it through, but that's far from the maximum, you could give. Just a few can feel Wiki their own, and only the ones who spare no effort, can making Wiki contains more colorful.

"...Show us where in any Sumerian texts there is anything resembling the stories of the Nephilim...Would it be responsible for me to put something in the Moby Dick article to the effect that Darth Vader is present in the book Moby Dick?"

What exactly you want me to show you? It is like you asked me to show, if "God" is mentioned in the Bible, or not. You can search anywhere, it is anywhere in the texts. Anunna gods are just like this, the are everywhere in sumerian texts, you dont have to search for them. Just the ones cannot see them without eyes. the resemblance I think is relative to the point of view, but in the case of Anunnaki and Nephilims it is more than obvious. Just like the Nagas in the Thai, Sri lankan, or Indian Nagas in Ramayana. I dont think I am the one who is aware of the resemblance of these to the Nephilims, but I cannott see any notes in connection with them. But you are all happy with the article the way it is now, because "It is not my job to search for clues for your claims". This sounds disappointingly snobbish and arrogant, from a scientific point of view, from one of the editors of Wiki, after writing "we all know that there the issue is whether or not there are legends about the Annunaki that are similar to the legends about the Watchers and the Nephalim". I hope your point of view will change with time and your job can be really fruitful, and will expand from "deleting only" into "eternal and relentless searching and publishing for the any possible truth".

"Would it be responsible for me to do so using websites that used material rejected by scholars, especially a personal website and a site advertising a book?

In your opinion rejected by scholars means what? Wich shcolars and why? Galilei wasn't "rejected" by scholars? Who decided that? Are you self-confident and infromed about that enough, to decide what is the real thing behind rejection? And You can decide it, but me, I cannot? Can Wikipedia readers decide, what you think? The principle that you follow during editing is like that, in my interpretation: I decide for all the Wiki readers, what is ok and what is not. What I dont find ok, I dont let through, so it doesnt exist for them.

I think even the wildest ideas should be let through, but signalling that the possibility of being true is slight, if I think so.

One can never think, what the future brings, how science turn upside-down from one day to an other, and who will seem the silly one in hundred years, just like the way now we think of the ones who put Galilei aside and made him "rejected by scholars" of his time...To list all possibilities, even if some of them are just wild ideas, I dont think would mislead anybody, if we affix that : "according our present knowledge it cannot be proven".

"Would it be responsible for me to put something in the Moby Dick article to the effect that Darth Vader is present in the book Moby Dick?"

Your example with the Moby Dick is not really covers our case I think. The example is better, if you say: I make an addition to the article about Herman Melville, about that he wrote a book about Moby Dick, and Darth Vader is a character in it. Your reaction to my addition is similar to the one's who would delete the whole addition about the book Moby Dick, because the author mentioned Darth Veder in connection with it. Wiki just wouldn't tell anything about Moby Dick, because of that error, and because you are lazy to write an other, correct article, without the ref about Dart Vader. Thats the case if you are aware of the fact the addition has a "core of truth" in it, but is wrong with some details. Is this good for Wiki readers? Don't you think, the existence of the Moby Dick is important enough to be published even if the source is not 100% sure?

But in the end, you are right with that, we need one or two actual sentence which I promise I'll look for, and insert as soon as I find in the text. But anyone could do it, if he saw a short sentence referring to the "sumerian connection", and could expand it from that core information. But you deny to give that clue for a possoble future research. If you dont want to do it, at least let others do.

What makes it difficult, I dont really know, what to prove. If I find sentences about the Anunnaki, whats next? We get to know that they are like this and like that, but we dont know nothing about Nephilims, how on Earth we could characteristics of Anunnaki compared to the big nothing about Nephilims?

Thats why I think, Anunnaki should be the base of the whole Nephilim article, sumerian sources are much older and give much more information about Anunnaki, what they did, why they did, what was their personalities like. I think I could cite arond 10.000 sencences about their activities, but how we'll see any similarity to something that only contains 2 sentences (the version in the Bible)?

But I will look for some sentences, because you told me, and maybe I will be forced to correct my statements, and i will mea culpa than...But hard to think that apparently I'am the one who cares about the resemlances, others who know the same are silent. I thought Wiki is something that is developed together, putting matching pieces of knowledge together in a global cooperation, not commanding others, what and how to do... Zoltan_Bereczki (talk) 15:13, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I have just done a JSTOR search on Nephilim and Anunnaki (and Anunaki just in case), and nothing at all showed up. And without anything there, I don't see it very likely you are going to find any reliable sources. Dougweller (talk) 15:34, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

In the ref I gave, either search for 'Anuna' / Anuna gods or use this direct link to search results...http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?simplesearchword=anuna&simplesearch=translation&searchword=&charenc=gcirc&lists=Zoltan_Bereczki (talk) 15:44, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

But a JSTOR search on 'Anuna' and Nephilim also turns up nothing. Dougweller (talk) 15:55, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

They should update soon than. :) Maybe a stupid question, but why do you think it should be in JSTOR? Zoltan_Bereczki (talk) 16:09, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

JSTOR is a database of various scholarly journals, including journals about Jewish and Middle East studies, Anthropology, Religion, Archeology, and so on. If a scholar has written about the Nephilim being derived from the Annunaki, it would be there. As for the link you provided, the issue is not whether or not the Sumerians worshipped the Anuna gods/Annunaki (that is accepted), the issue is whether or not the stories about the Anuna are the basis for the story about the Nephilim in Genesis (which the link does not show). The flood story in Genesis is certainly derived from a Sumerian source through Babylon, but the intent is different: in the Sumerian stories the gods are tired of the noise made by the overpopulation, while in the Nephilim narrative the evil of the Nephilim causes the flood. I have found this essay, which points out that the story of evil half-human giants appears to be an isolate in West Semitic cultures, which means that they likely didn't get it from Sumeria through Babylon (or else it would have been found among the Canaanites as well). Sitchin did make up a lot of crap, and the connection between the Annunaki and the Nephilim appears to be one more thing he made up. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:15, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

This entire thread is making me have horrible flashbacks of this previous discussion. Many claims are made, but are never supported with reliable material. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 18:33, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Zoltan, I've removed your recent edit. Please read WP:OR -- Wikipedia is not a place for original research - this applies to both articles and talk pages. The bottom line is without reliable sources [WP:RS]] which in this case would be academic sources this has no place on Wikipedia. Dougweller (talk) 16:50, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm trying to confirm my arguments, how should I do this than? All that you can read before my post, are opinions as well. I stated nowhere the last sentences are facts. The bottom line of my comment was my opinion, which I don't think is forbidden to express on a talk page, if it is, I cannot see the reason. I'm new to Wikipedia, could you help me out, I inserted the source, is it ok like this? I can insert other sources if you want. (But anyway I still cannot see, why a talk page - which is for discussing what can be a part of the article, right? - can only contain posts with references and sources? One cannot have "his own brain" to perform original thoughts without sorces, seeing connection between things, without reading it somewhere anywere before?). Zoltan_Bereczki (talk) 18:11, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I read the Wiki rules, and now I feel much more informed! :) Our argument is about wether all these divine "species" the same or not. I was told to reedit my comment here, because it contained my opinion. Ok, I got that, opinions cannot be expressed on Wiki. But isn't that also a way of expressing an opinion, if we actually don't mention the other possibilities, suggesting that, there doesn't even exist any? Wouldn't they deserve the less a link in the Related topics?

I just read Wiki, and now I got to know that Book of Enoch is the first and perfect example under the article pseudepigraph...and it has a highlighted place in this article as a reliable source. Zoltan_Bereczki (talk) 18:38, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

The Nephilim article, following scholarly consensus, assumes the Nephilim were mythical beings and not historical ones. Genesis 6 is the first mention of them, and the Book of Enoch is the major development of the mythology. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:01, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

You're saying, if there is a "scholarly consensus" in a field of science, it is valid ethernally? Poor Giordano Bruno was told the same, before being sent to the stake, by your intellectual ancestors. "Sorry Giordano, scholarly consensus says the heliocentric view is nothing else than a crazy idea...It should burn together with you! Step ahead!" You say, Nephilims "were" mythical beings and not historical. Ah, thats where our little argument is heading for... If something "'was", it cannot be mythical I think. But I start to see your point. You think mythology is something that for the kids and crazy dreamers, we've better not to take it serious? Nephilims should stay at their own place, in the myths? Thats why you try to keep this article the way you like it? If we are arguing about that, I just would like to know... We all know that, science has just begun to explore the Middle-Eastern and Asian sources in the last fifty years. Sumerian sources were impossible to translate until the recent past. According to biblical sources only, I would agree with you. But after reading the apparently same story about them, I just begin to think, Thats exactly why I wanted everyone to be able to do so. When we were schoolboys, we were taught that all the cultural roots of European culture are actually European, Greek or Roman. How about this now? It has changed a lot, but not because of the ones like you. If everyone would be like you, we couldnt even start a fire, without the approval of a "scolarly consensus". There might have been a scholar consensus, but times change, new facts appear, assumptions change. Seemengly, one thing doesn't change, your opinion, which you think is established by the "scolars", who think Book of Enoch an established source (of mythology). I can accept that, if you want to be blindfolded, and want to think myth is a myth, you are free to do so. You can think I'm just a crazy guy who spoils your day with his fantasies. But I'm not still here because of that. I'm here because I know stories about nephilims, other ones about Nagas, and about Anunnaki. If I read the same story in three culture's myths so far from eachother, do i really need sholarly consensus to say, tha "might be" (not are, I never stated that) the same. I wish you would be able to understand this, and you wouldn't think that, you know the right thing about all this, in the right and unquestionable way. Because the problem with this point of view is, it doesn't let even a clue for new ideas and (established) theories. How should science and "scolarly consensus" develop with time, if everything is carved in stone in Wiki? It will become a nice collection of dusty ideas, which are based on hundred years old "consensus", would that make you happy the way like that? If I put two apples side by side, do we need a scholarly consensus to determine them both as apples, or we can use our eyes to determine that? What I asked, and wanted to put into the article, was not that, these apples ARE the same, but just putting them side by side in this article, and everyone can decide - if he wants - whether they are the same or not. Try to answer to this, in your own human voice please, I haven't really liked to talk to this dry and lexical Ian "robot" thompson, I would like a human being to talk with, thanks. 81.183.245.214 (talk) 12:54, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I urge the above editor to read WP:NPA and WP:CIVILITY and ensure that his future comments adhere to it. And the only one I see doing any "arguing" is the IP editor. Wikipedia is not a compendium of information, but rather an encyclopedia. As such, it is nlike all encyclopedias intended to reflect the current opinion of the scholarly community. The fact that you have drawn a conclusion that the stories are similar is not sufficient for the article to be changed to reflect your own opinion, however well founded you may think it. If it were, then virtually edvery article dealing with JFK or anyone else closely associated with any fringe theories wouild be awash in speculation about aliens, conspiracy theories, and lord knows what all else. If you can find an academic journal or other source as per WP:RS which makes the association explicitly and provides its reasons, fine, that is admissable. By the same token, if it is an idea which no respectable scholar has yet put forward, then there is a very real question as to why not. This is the reason we have a specific guideline dealing with material which has not received scholarly consensus, WP:FRINGE, which I suggest you read. But, at this point, that guideline doesn't really apply, because you have yet to point toward any reliable source as per WP:RS which says what you say. I would therefore also suggest you read WP:NOT and WP:OR. We do not pubnlish original research, which, by your statement, is what your own individual conclusion regarding the relationship of these subjects is. This is not saying I am completely unsympathetic with you. If you look at Talk:Atlantis, you will see a statement from me regarding what I think is the likely origin of that myth. You will also note however that I tacitly acknowledge that for that idea to be put in the article it would need reliable sources. For all I know, there may be some very good reasons why the scholarly community has not made that association. So far as I can tell, the same can be said about your conclusion. Because we don't want to be found to put forward conclusions which are not reliable or credited by any of the recognized experts or authorities in any field, we demand reliable sourcing, and, sadly, neither you nor I are reliable sources.

If you can find sourcing, which is what we want for anything added to any article, good, that is what we want. If you can't, then there is a real reasonable question why no one has published such a conclusion. There are other sites which do permit additions based on personal conclusions of editors. This is not however such a site. John Carter (talk) 14:40, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm more confused now than ever

I've read what Wikipedia has for the definition for Nephilim. However, after reading this material I'm more confused now than ever. I'm an avid reader of the bible daily needing some clarity on this race of people. I've concluded that this race of people or group was as Adam (tall) but world renowned now that gives me just pause here. Was Noah and the people of that day what short, non-warriors or what? The Nephilims are mentioned after the flood so what gives and where did they originate? I may have to wait until I'm face to face with the Son of God, Jesus to know. Too many ifs in this content. therecabites@yahoo.com```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.155.97.18 (talk) 15:27, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced comments about the Ethiopian Church

Is there an Ethiopian Orthodox version of 1 Enoch completely different from the 1 Enoch known as "Ethiopic Enoch"? Because if not, we need some sourced evidence to show that the Ethiopian Church takes a non-canonical (in Ethiopia) 5th Century pseudepigraphon Conflict_of_Adam_and_Eve_with_Satan over 2 "canonical" (in Ethiopia) books. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:34, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

btw -- The Ethiopian Orthodox Church article cites a website (of said church) which confirms that the church believes the canonical (for them) Enoch, which makes the statements in the article very unlikely In ictu oculi (talk) 10:53, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

In ictu, The official Ethiopian Orthodox canonical Enoch is similar to the Greek, but a crucial difference is that it (like Jubilees) describes the Nephilim as hybrid descendants of Cainites and Sethites, not "Angels". I've seen you on the Amharic wikipedia (where I edit as User:Codex Sinaiticus) so I will link the official Orthodox Amharic text here for you to read (Henok at end of Section 3). Regards, Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:19, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Til, thanks. But I should admit that my command of Amharic is so far below-basic that would take me all day to decipher that. So can I understand you to be saying that e.g. Knibb's 1978 translation here is incorrect:

10 Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees. 11 And the women conceiving brought forth giants, (This is leaving aside Knibb's footnote(7) re The Greek texts) Which means (from memory) that the translation in OTP1 is also incorrect? Though it's been a long time since I read it, and probably wouldn't have noticed a footnote to that effect. If Knibb and OTP are wrong then disappointing that there is no source in English for a fairly widely believed error. (not that most errors aren't widely believed) In ictu oculi (talk) 12:54, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Hallo Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche -- In the 1882 Malan, Book of Adam and Eve - Page vi he notes a "Said Ibn Batrik or Eutychus, physician, and also Melkite Patriarch, who lived in the ninth century ; when he wrote his Nazam al-jatvahir, or "String of Gems" as he called his "Annals of the World," from the creation to his own time." who based his work on Conflict... But that's Melkite, is there a reference source to show that the Ethiopian Church does not accept the teaching of one of its canonical books? I cannot find anything. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:01, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I do not follow what you are talking about. The canonical Oriental Orthodox text as I have linked is the official Bible, and the Book of Enoch (Henok) as well as Jubilees (Kufale) there states unequivocally that the Nephilim are hybrid descendants of Sethites and Cainites. This is what the O.O. Church says too, so there is no disagreement with the canon there. The disagreement seems to come from the Greek version, which calls them "Angels". Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:46, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Til, forgive me if I'm being dense, these are my questions:

• 1 in Knibb 6:8] the Ethiopic text is the same as the Greek in saying "Angels", or has this htm been adulterated and that is not what Knibb says? If this htm has edited Knibb what does Knibb say in 6:8? Or is Knibb wrong??
• 2 Where is there a source by the Ethiopian Church which says that the Gen 6 "sons of god" were sons of Seth?
• 3 Where is there a source that says that the Ethiopian Church gives any credence to the 5thC "Conflict of A w S"?

I'm asking this not because I don't want what you're saying to be true, I'd love it to be, but where are the refs so they can go into the article? Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:20, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

1) That website purports to be a translation of the "Ethiopic" Enoch, but to all appearances, it is word-for-word identical with the 1908 Charles translation, which was mostly based on the Greek and Syriac versions. It categorically is NOT a translation of the canonical Ethiopic Orthodox version!

2) The canonical Orthodox Books of Henok (Mets'hafe Henok) and Jubilees (Mets'hafe Kufale) are the primary canonical sources stating the doctrine that the "sons of god" were "sons of Seth". I'll have to look around for a secondary source, but no doubt one can be found stating that the Ethiopian Church teaches this.

3) The "Conflict of Adam and Eve" isn't on any list of books withj official canonical status, but the literature is certainly known to the Church as literature (presumably as any other in the category of Ge'ez literature). Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 05:32, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I found a secondary source for question #2 -- here is an official EOTC webpage that specifically addresses the question of why the offspring of Seth from Enoch are called "sons of god" in Genesis, and whether they are really "Angels" as certain other churches teach (note it concludes that the idea these "watchers" were "Angels" and not humans from Seth, is anther false teaching unsupported by Scripture) http://www.mahiberekidusan.org/Default.aspx?tabid=98&ctl=Details&mid=371&ItemID=75 Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 05:57, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Til, many thanks. I'm interested.

1. is there an English translation of the canonical version?

2. is there an English version available as a ref?

3. Who is the main EO writer who has used "Conflict.."?

In ictu oculi (talk) 17:05, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

1,2 I don't know of any standard English translation of the canonical Amharic text of Henok.

3 - You may be asking me to delve into OR, and I'm limited to what I can say. The reason is that the EOTC has never even published the entirety of its "broad canon" in any language, but it is said to include several books attributed to St. Clement. You can read a translation of the Arabic Kitab al Magall, a book attributed to Clement that includes very similar language to Conflict with regard to the identity of the Watchers being Sethites and not really "angels". The interesting thing about the Ktab al Magall, is that it purports to be the teachings of St. Peter to St. Clement; in the book, St. Peter says he got part of it directly from Jesus, but most of it he says he got from a genealogical scroll that had been allegedly given Jesus as an infant by one of the Magi, and preserved by the early church. It's highly likely that something similar is in the "broad canon" EOTC writings of Clement, but nothing has been published. Suffice it for our article to say that the current Church definitely takes the same view of the "Angels mating with humans" thing being a western superstition, as the Amharic link I gave yesterday indicates. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:32, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

1,2 - Okay. Perhaps I first need to understand which is the canonical one among mss A-Q Book_of_Enoch#Ethiopic? Re. OR, there is a way round the OR, issue; if the key verse of the canonical text of 1 Enoch is directly copied into a footnote, and the Ethiopian printer/date noted, then that cannot be OR; and if an English translation of that line goes into the main text that's completely legitimate, that's not OR, just a translation. People do that with German and Latin all the time, as long as the original German or Latin is in the ref footnote.

3, - Okay, forget about the article, just for my own interest can you name the EO bishop who cites from "Conflict" against the angels mating with humans view.

Btw - Thanks - this is interesting In ictu oculi (talk) 14:03, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Hebrew text of Ezekiel 32:27

This: " As the text stands "And they shall not lie with the fallen mighty of the uncircumcised, which are gone down (yaradu יָרְדֽוּ) to the grave with their weapons of war:", but this could become the gibborim nepilim of the uncircumcised.K. van der Toorn, Bob Becking, Pieter Willem van der Horst, "Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible", p.619"

The word uncircumised does not show up in a search of the book, I see nothing on page 619 either suggesting " this could become the gibborim nepilim". So why is this sentence in the article? Dougweller (talk) 08:51, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi Doug. This is the state of that paragraph prior to my adding in the ref that the Massoretic Text requires a change to read in this manner:

<<<The original connection with fallen-ness seems to be through their identity as warriors, as in Ezekiel 32:27, where the warrior nations fall (npl) down into Sheol, the home of the gibborim nepilim, "fallen warriors". K. van der Toorn, Bob Becking, Pieter Willem van der Horst, "Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible", p.619 >>> So does DDD p.619 support the comment as it originally was? If not you'll have to ask the person who wrote the original sentence. As for the word "uncircumcised" it is in the Hebrew text. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:24, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

The ref I added: <<W. Zimmerli, Ezekiel vl.2 Translated J. D. Martin; Hermeneia; Philadelphia: Fortress, 1983 p168, p176>>> is actually there in DDD p619 as "Zimmerli (1969)" which supports the use that the original poster made of it, except for DDD says "might be preserved" given Zimmerli is discussing a case made after emendment from nepolim to nephilim. DDD conclude that whether Zimmerli's alterations to the text are correct or not that MT nepolim "exploits the etymological significance of nephilim".

Also we all need to be careful with handing out "Original Research" charges, as whoever wrote the original sentence + ref was not doing "Original Research", but simply misread what DDD is saying about Zimmerli. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:44, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

It was I as wrote it. The passage in DDD on which I was basing my sentence is this:

[]something of the older sense of the term might be preserved in Ezekiel 32:27, where the warrior nations "fall" (npl) down into Sheol, but are not privileged to lie with the gibborim nepilim, the "fallen warriors" ... Certainly npl is a keyword in Ezekiel 32 and exploits the etymological significance of Nephilim.

I take this to mean that the use of npl in Ezekiel, where it signifies a descent into the underworld for the slain warriors, casts light on the meaning of the same root in the nephilim of Genesis - they are the "might men of old," now in Sheol, but living in the mythic past of the author of Genesis. (It is my understanding that the author of Genesis was writing after Ezekiel 32, although not long after - probably no more than a century - but this, I think, is why the DDD speaks of "the older sense of the term" - Ezekiel is older than Genesis). So you can use this explanation to decide whether DDD p.619 supports my edit.

As for In ictu oculi's comment that the MT requires a change to read nepilim, I believe he's right. The MT at Ezekiel 32 says nopilim (I think), not nepilim. The DDD doesn't mention this fact, but it is a fact.

PiCo (talk) 10:45, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, there was an edit conflict, I didn't see In ictu oculi's latest comment. I'm be happy for him to edit the article as he sees fit. PiCo (talk) 10:47, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

PiCo :) No problem, as I said I didn't consider it OR, and I didn't delete the DDD ref because it's still very relevant. You go ahead and edit.In ictu oculi (talk) 10:53, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Sources need to deal with the entire statement being cited - it should be easy for someone to check the source and say 'yes, that's what it says'. If we say 'something requires a change', it needs to say that. I get bothered by statements such as 'I take this to mean' - isn't that OR? It looks as though DDD is being interpreted and that's original research. I agree though that misreading is not OR. Dougweller (talk) 10:59, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi Doug. Well in this case DDD is only recycling Zimmerli, so I wouldn't worry too much. There's plenty of totally unsourced material in this article, without making a meal of a reference that is less than perfect. btw PiCo whatever the wording in DDD might suggest, I'm fairly sure Zimmerli isn't arguing that Ezekiel is older than Genesis, since he'd have to make "Cherub in Eden" etc. prior Genesis too. Possibly the issue is more related to the St Petersburg Codex being 8thC. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:04, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Source for "ambiguity"? that nephilim can apply to sons of God

Does anyone have a source for the statement that there is ambiguity about whether nephilim apply to the sons of God or the offspring? In ictu oculi (talk) 10:53, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Eliyahu ben David

Are we sure we want to quote him? The man seems to be a complete nutter. There must be better people out there making the same point. PiCo (talk) 10:41, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Go ahead, delete.In ictu oculi (talk) 17:31, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

References to Sethites in Eth. canonical Bible

In octu, here's my best attempt at translating literally the canonical Amharic text I linked above.

Henok 2:1-3:

After mankind abounded, it became thus: And in that season, handsome comely children were born to them; and the Offspring of Seth, who were upon the Holy Mount, saw them and loved them. And they told one another, "Come,let us choose for us daughters from Qayel's children; let us bear children for us."

Henok 3:8-10:

"And speak the cleanliness of the Earth, that I shall heal the Earth that the Offspring of Seth destroyed, that I shall cleanse Earth. All mankind won't perish by all the secrets of the sins, whereby the Offspring of Seth, who are diligent for sin, killed, and that they taught to their children. By Azazel's works and teaching all Earth perished; and write upon him the sin of all persons,", He told him.

Henok 4:7-8:

"Go and tell both for him who perished with women, and for the Offspring of Seth, who did as Qayel's children do" they told me. "They married themselves wives, and were lost in a great destruction in this world."

Henok 4:23-27

I saw a vision where there was a chastisement, that I might tell and send upon the Offspring of Seth, who were in a Heavenly rank. And I awoke and came toward them; and all had been gathered and sat as they wept covering their faces in `Ubilsya'il, that is between Sinilir and Libanos. And I spoke before them all the vision that I saw while sleeping. I began to speak this word, which is a thing of Truth, and that I might teach to the Offspring of Seth who were upon the Holy Mount, who are diligent for their sin. This is the book where the reprimand was written to the Offspring of Seth, diligent for them sin...

Henok 4:29

As the Illustrious Lord has created me also, and given me a reasoning that I might teach the Offspring of Seth who were on the Holy Mount, I saw while sleeping the things I speak.

Henok 4:69

"Approach here and hear My Word, and go and tell the Offspring of Seth who are diligent for sin, Who sent thee to beg for them' He told me.

Henok 4:80-82

And now giant men birthed from the Offspring of Seth, who are their kindred, shall be called evil children in this world. And their lodging shall be in this world. As their fathers had been born from the Offspring of Seth who descended from the Holy Mount, evil children were born from the Offspring of Seth who are their kindred.

I have only got through chapter 4, and that's all I have time for now, but it seems there are many more such references to the Offspring of Seth in Henok and Jubilees, as well as throughout the Books of Meqabyan (and there is a standard English published translation of Meqabyan) Regards, Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 15:52, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Til, thanks for that - that is indeed plenty and proves your point. I hope you can actually use that translation somewhere later. That is indeed substantially different from the Ethiopic MSS used by RH Charles etc.

• (RH CHARLES) 7:2 And when the angels, (3) the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other,Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.
• (WEBSITE VERSION) 2:1-3 and the Offspring of Seth, who were upon the Holy Mount, saw them and loved them. And they told one another, "Come,let us choose for us daughters from Qayel's children; let us bear children for us."

So what of A-Q is the Website pdf based on, and does the pdf display any publication year? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the "letter classification" of the Ge'ez text, that the canonical Orthodox Amharic translation was made from. I do know this is the official EOTC translation that was first made during the Haile Selassie years, when the deuterocanon was first published separately; and was later the same text as that included in the 81 book Bible published by the EOTC later on (I think that was around 1990 but I'll have to check). Remember that Charles, Charlesworth, and apparently also Knibb, stated that they made extensive use of the Syriac and Greek versions in their translations, thus their texts do not seem to follow the Ethiopic as much as they do those other translations, in many places. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:46, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi Til. I think I've worked out what's happened. The pdf may well be the 1935 Buxton version (see Bible translations (Amharic)), the one that was printed in America in 1936, but withdrawn and reissued in 1962. Of course Charles, Black, E. Isaac (in Charlesworth), Nickelsburg etc. all use Syriac, Greek, etc. to supplement the later Ge'ez where possible. But I doubt they'd even look at Buxton's Amharic edition. The question is does the 1962 Tewahedo version follow the 1935 Haile Selassie/Buxton text, or follow the Ge'ez texts? And what do modern EO commentaries on Enoch say?In ictu oculi (talk) 03:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I think calling it the "Buxton version" or whatever is a misnomer because it is the translation from Ge'ez to Amharic commissioned by Haile Selassie I in Ethiopia, and not in the US. Reading that link carefully, suggests it was some different version that was published in the US. The deuterocanon including Henok, Kufale and Meqabyan, however, was first published separately, I think in the 1950s. The "81-book Tewahido Bible" that came out a few years ago includes the same text of the deuterocanon as published previously. I know I'm repeating myself, but I don't understand what further demonstration of the Ethiopic Orthodox doctrine it would possibly take to convince you that they don;t subscribe, and won't subscribe, to any notion of "angels breeding with humans". Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 03:22, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure that the "Buxton version" is a misnoma, which is why the section Bible translations (Amharic) reads First Haile Selassie Bible (1935) not "Buxton version". It's not an issue of convincing me, I believe you, and if I didn't one of my former tango partners was EO, I could ask her. It's an issue for Wikipedia refs of either (a) finding a publication date to support that the pdf on the link in Bible translations (Amharic) is the current Tewahido version (which it probably is)(b) a ref in any EO publication to use as a ref in Nephilim.In ictu oculi (talk) 04:49, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Til, time to finish up, thanks for your many comments. To demonstrate that what you're saying sounds completely reasonable and supported, I have made cautious edits to Nephilim, 1 Enoch, Ethiopian Orthodox Church and Bible translations (Amharic) in line with your translation above, but with and left in the text. I expect some more regular user of the pages will see those and fill them in. I would urge you not to waste your translation above on a Talk Page. Cheers.In ictu oculi (talk) 06:24, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

In ictu, I have a copy of the 81-book Tewahedo Amharic Bible right here, and I am assuring you that you can have good faith that the version of the Book of Henok there, is identical to the one on the pdf, and in fact appears to be a photo off-set of the same pages. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:17, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Til, I'll edit as you say! :) + would it be asking too much also to have Henok 2:2: and the Offspring of Seth, who were upon the Holy Mount as Amharic script? In ictu oculi (talk) 14:34, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for edits. I've added your translations in refs, as they will be lost on the Talk page. Dead Sea scrolls are earliest FWIW. It occurs to me that those street vendors selling copies to Dillman etc (A-Q) may have done so because the EO church had thrown them out exactly because of the sons of God reading. Touches on a major issue with all 19thC mss acquisitions in Greek too. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

There must be a better font

The words "Mount Hermon" as seen on the main page, uses a font that confuses/merges the letter R and the letter M together. Some would take it as 2 letter N's. The same can be said when in some instances the number one and the small letter L are placed side by side, some fonts make both characters look exactly the same. Mpau0516 (talk) 15:37, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

If you mean in "summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon", I don't believe there is any choice of font. It might be your browser. You could ask at the Wikipedia:Help desk. We can't change it. Dougweller (talk) 16:01, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Albanian language claim

Nephilim has a striking similarity with Albanian language word nefillim which means "in the biggining". Ne = in, fillim = beginning. Albanian language is a descendand of the old Pelazgic language in Balkans. It is thought to be the oldest language of Europe and root of most European languages. Someone with necessary knowledge should analyze and propose references to this claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.112.53.86 (talk • contribs)

Please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) and put your stuff at the bottom so it doesn't get lost with other people's posts. Also, We don't analyze, we just report what reliable sources state. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:13, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Despite Evolution

Despite Evolutions rise, and the increase in more and more fossils being found. I just don't find them entirely separate. Supposedly, Modern man showed up at least 100,000 years ago, and Neaderthals were around till 60,000 years ago. Hmmm... If you really really read the text in Discover Magazine (May 2011, Pages 48-55, 76) "you are not human" you'll get your science fact/fiction equivalent of this story.

The article entails details that several migration of human ancestors left africa PROCEDING modern humans, 'those that came before' really left before us, we didn't leave them behind we just followed them out. and my final quote "They found that the Neanderthal Genome shows more similiarity with non-african modern humans throught Europe and Asia, than with African-modern humans, suggesting that the gene flow between us and Neanderthals most likely occurred outside Africa as humans were en route to Europe, asia, and new Guinea." My supposition, Since africa is where the evolutions accelerated, not only did we outgrow our neanderthal ancestors there through constant evolution that borders on the 'impossible' we bred back with them as we left.... Oh Wait this sound disturbingly close to the BIBLE~! better run away before some calls me a creationist. DISCUSS THAT HA! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.81.211 (talk) 15:13, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

We do not publish original thought, original research, or speculation. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:26, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Niflheim Tag Request

I accidently found “Niflheim” (one of the realms of Nordic tradition) looking for this page. A tag at the top of the page reading “Did you mean "Niflheim"?” should not hurt anything.174.25.129.229 (talk) 03:22, 8 June 2011 (UTC)A REDDSON

They're false cognates, and from different mythologies, so... Unless they used near identical spellings in English, it really doesn't warrent a link based on one accident. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:01, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Sources of Scriptural Quotation

I believe it would be apposite to quote the Jewish Publication Society's Torah, rather than a Christian source. Does anyone disagree? Leegee23 (talk) 15:49, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Why here? that would be tantamount to a policy decision across Wikipedia to only use the 1917 or 1985 JPS/NJPS. Scholarly works, whether Jewish/Christian/agnostic generally use the NRSV or ESV, but Wikipedia doesn't have a policy. If there's a particular Jewish or Protestant or Catholic edge to an article maybe. But then read WP:RS we aren't supposed to be relying on Primary Sources anyway. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:20, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

More video games/comics blah blah

Can we please have a Nephilim in popular culture like Lilith in popular culture fork? In ictu oculi (talk) 15:20, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Time to seriously consider mentioning neanderthals

The first generation of hybrids that populated the planet had neanderthal fathers and sapiens mothers (sons of God, daughters of man). We know this because we recently sequenced the neanderthal genome and found admixture signatures in human nuclear DNA but not human mitochondrial DNA (which is exclusively matrilineal). In light of this new evidence, fossil hybrids that were previously considered controversial are now, in retrospect, rather obvious examples of admixed ancestors with less bias towards sapiens genes. There is limited evidence that more evenly hybridized populations may have persisted until very, very recently in certain parts of the world. I realize you probably aren't going to edit the main page just yet, but you should consider this a warning that at least a few theories long ago dismissed as crackpot are about to be dusted off and reassessed (see: Stan_Gooch#Hybrid-origin_theory). 00099a99000 (talk) 19:32, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't see anything at that link mentioning the article topic, Nephilim. If there is something somewhere else, we would have to avoid any Original synthesis. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 20:07, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

A quick glance on Google books shows some stuff, but it's all kinda minor primary sources on the belief that neanderthals and nephilim are connected in some way. I'd wait until there's a secondary source describing that type of eisegesis, because if we describe a one guy's view, proponents of other views will edit war about their differing views; and if we go with a few different views we'll either violate WP:SYNTH (if we condense things the right amount) or WP:UNDUE (if we don't condense). A secondary source could easily be written (though I'm not finding any), as there is some diversity in the views: ancient astronaut, neopagan, new age, fundamentalist Christian, anti-Christian, anti-Semite, white supremacist, black supremacist... Ian.thomson (talk) 20:31, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm trying to link this page to the Neanderthal/Cro-magnon man hypothesis -- wikipedia's own article dates Neanderthals as co-existing with Cro Mangnons. I'd be interested to hear and discussions here on the talk page, I am reading about this connection at the momemnt and interested to hear from anyone else who has studied it. Charleswfox (talk) 09:27, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

(sorry I got my notes in a twist the first try, 35000-10000 would be the dates of Cro-Magnon, not the dates of its overlap with Neanderthals, which would be only at the start of that period. So thats a long time for an oral tradition to persist before writing down in 3000BC. But no less probable than the alternative explanations I think!) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.167.9.250 (talk) 16:47, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I have studied this connection, but we are very limited in what can be said here, by our Original research policy. Basically, it means we can't make any new point that an externally published source hasn't already made in relation to the article topic, Nephilim. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:22, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Til here. We really can only include material in this, the main article on a topic, if that material is in accord with not only WP:OR, but also any number of other policies and guidelines, including WP:FRINGE, WP:RS, and others. It might certainly be possible to include such information in an article more directly focused on that particularly topic, such as, for instance, a book which clearly meets our notability requirements, or a separate article if it has been referred to by multiple sources in a way which does not violate WP:SYNTH and other policies and guidelines, but it would almost certainly be best to first create such a separate article, and then discuss adding relevant material to this article. John Carter (talk) 18:46, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

OK, I found a recent 2012 academic source that mentions the connection and have added it (HUMAN UNIQUENESS, THE OTHER HOMINIDS, AND “ANTHROPOCENTRISM OF THE GAPS” IN THE RELIGION AND SCIENCE DIALOGUE, Joshua M. Moritz,2012, DOI: 10.1111/j.1467-9744.2011.01240.x). That's in a proper 40 year old jounral, impact factor 0.36, with professors from Harvard and Yale on its board. I hope this is useful and interesting to readers. (And thanks for pushing me to search properly for this.) Charleswfox (talk) 09:27, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

If you've got something like that mentioning the article subject, it would be great to add its take on it, but we can't expand that too much with a discussion of neanderthals citing sources about neanderthals, unless the same point has been made by a source referencing Nephilim. Discussion of neanderthals using neanderthal sources would belong on the neanderthals article. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:31, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

That's exactly what this article is, (HUMAN UNIQUENESS, THE OTHER HOMINIDS, AND “ANTHROPOCENTRISM OF THE GAPS” IN THE RELIGION AND SCIENCE DIALOGUE, Zygon: Journal of Religion and Science, Wiley. Joshua M. Moritz,2012, DOI: 10.1111/j.1467-9744.2011.01240.x), which I put a link to put someone has removed the section again! I'll quote some of the text here, it's copyrighted but should be OK to quote a bit on this talk page to illustrate the relevance:

"The idea that there were (or are) other humanoid beings who once walked the earth is nothing new. The ancient Greeks wrote of strange humanoid races, including centaurs and mermaids, and some, such as the Milesian philosopher Anaximander, even suggested that human beings originally emerged from an aquatic ancestor. As the book of Genesis paints a picture of the earliest days of humanity, it tells us of an antediluvian race with imposing physical strength that appears to be unrelated to human beings: “The Nephilim were on the earth in those days. . . . These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown” (Genesis 6:4). Much later, during the first century AD, the Greek historian Pliny the Elder wrote of other nonhuman races and humanoid “monstrosities” who lived in exotic distant lands. Pliny’s Natural History was handed down to geographers of the Medieval Era, and the Plinian races were held in the forefront of the minds of the early European explorers. In this way, as the first Europeans crossed the Atlantic into the new world, they were “already armed with cultural and physiological taxonomies into which racial ‘others’ and their traditions had long been inserted.” Thus Christopher Columbus, with his annotated copy of Pliny’s Natural History in hand, and fully expecting to discover [...] As the Modern Age awoke into history, the primeval accounts of other human-like peoples fast became legend. Legend became myth. And for over two centuries, as no human-like fossils had yet been discovered, the notion that “others” had once walked the earth passed out of the realm of empirical knowledge and into the domains of fantasy and speculation. [...] . In our discovery of the fact that at one time we, as human beings, were not alone in the universe, we ironically come closer to a more ancient understanding of the human place in the cosmos. Though Neanderthals may now take the taxonomical place of “the mighty men who were of old,” the “unique” human species may once again be regarded as one among many.

I'm not going to revert though as someone clearly has a good reason for wanting to remove the section, maybe we can have a discussion about it here instead of an edit war?

Charleswfox (talk) 12:13, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi, sorry it took me so long to notice a response! It appears that the reference you found indeed does reference the article topic. My tentative suggestion for summarizing it in the text would be something along the lines of this: Some recent authors [insert 2012 ref here] have proposed that the Nephilim, the "mighty men of old", and similar legends represent a distant folk memory of remote times when other hominid types such as Neanderthals roamed the Earth alongside our own ancestors. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:50, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the author of that article is an authority on Old Testament studies, and I doubt very much that he can even read Hebrew. Too tangential to include. PiCo (talk) 06:18, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

The latest science news is now saying that Neanderthals did /not/ breed with H Sapiens, and the shared DNA is from a common ancestor, (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9474109/Neanderthals-did-not-interbreed-with-humans-scientists-find.html). Also new homonid species continue to be discovered (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8609192.stm) AFAIK the most recently exisiting hominid was H Floriens which was around in 10,000BCE, the time of cave art, early stonehenge building, and so probably language, folklore and religion. So it still seems at least conceivable that the nephilim are the folk memory remnants of /some/ hominid species, if not Neanderthal then perhaps a later or even undiscovered one. Can anyone find a better peer-reviewed paper than the Moritz paper which mentions this explicitly? (Or maybe it's time to write one... anyone fancy collaborating on that?) charles

Some more archeaological linguistics in the news today, http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2012/08/linguistic-archeology, suggests that langauge first appeared around about 10000-8000BC, which would overlap with at least some hominids (though in other parts of the world). Maybe there are are enough bits of research like this to warrent writing a little jounral paper somewhere, please message me if anyone is interested in doing this properly, charles — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.167.9.246 (talk) 10:21, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Charles, as I said in May, you really should read WP:OR particularly WP:SYNTH, and WP:TALK. Do your sources mention the topic of Nephilim? If not, then there's not much point to bringing them up on Talk:Nephilim. Yes, your Moritz paper does mention the Nephilim, suggesting they are a folk memory of Neanderthals. So that one could potentially be used in the Nephilim article. PiCo thinks it is too tangential because Moritz might not be an authority in Ancient Hebrew, but I know of nothing in policy requiring expertise in Ancient Hebrew for a POV to be attributed to a source. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:08, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Although the historicity of the Torah is questionable, it also struck me that some might have studied a possible link with late non Homo Sapiens Sapiens humans and uncommon (possibly mythical) beings, such as the Nephilim. Having found nothing about this on the article (unsurprisingly, though), I then fell on this discussion. I think that this reference seems worthy of a short mention, even if the author wasn't an Aramaic or Hebrew expert. This appears to me different from a fringe view, considering the notability of the discovery that humans may have met, and possibly interbred with other human species in the past. It also seems different than "biblical archeology" pseudo-science, as it is not enough to try to pretend that the account is historical, it is merely a possible relation with the accounts of those traditions. As such there's no need to expand on the topic either and reinterpret it, the reference can simply be mentioned... How about a single link to Archaic human admixture with modern Homo sapiens in the See Also section, annotated with the reference tag? 76.10.128.192 (talk) 15:56, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

So the latest, latest science from PlOS Genetics is now placing a latest neanderthal-sapiens interbreed date at 37,000BC , as reported in http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2213219/Neanderthals-bred-modern-humans-Europe-recently-37-000-years-ago.html . Seems there are still papers coming out arguing both sides of this as of 2013. Nice link there by the way, thanks, interesting to see there are two other known interbreed flows with sapiens after the neanderthal one there too, a specimin of one, H. Denisovans, was found in 2010 and the other is yet to be discovered but is implied by the genetics. - charles

Thanks for improving the lead

The lead seemed difficult to read and an attempt of mine to clean it up had been reverted. But someone improved it since, thanks. 76.10.128.192 (talk) 22:07, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Sirens = Mothers of Nephilim

I believe it is important to also mention that in the Book of Enoch, the women that mated with the fallen angels became Sirens, half-bird and half-woman.Twillisjr (talk) 22:40, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

You need a secondary source to establish that one translation choosing the word "siren" matters. WP:No original research is used on this site, and that includes opinions. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:54, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Fossils of Giants

Are there true Nephilim fossils? These hybrids had probably flawed genetic structure? Maybe that's why they are huge. [5]--AltıncıTas (talk) 18:13, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

No. Editor2020 (talk) 18:50, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I'll preface by stating that anything which appears in the article should reflect what is already published in reliable sources (see WP:RS and WP:OR). Anyways, if by "true Nephilim fossils," you are referring to the remains of a human-angelic (or human-extraterrestrial/alien) hybrid, the answer is that the scientific community does not recognize anything of the sort as legitimate. Any assertions of this sort are regarded as pseudoscientific. However, prior to the development of modern scientific paleontology, people occasionally stumbled across fossils while digging wells, foundations for buildings, etc.. Scientists can now easily recognize these as the bones of mammoths and other extinct animals, but at the time, this scientific understanding did not yet exist and the bones were sometimes labeled as belonging to an extinct race of giants. If a reliable source can be found describing how a notable historical claim was made about a fossil discovery connecting it to the Nephilim, it could be worth mentioning in the article as a historical element in the interpretive history of the Nephilim tradition. --Mike Agricola (talk) 18:57, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I have indeed seen claims of fossil discoveries connected to the Nephilim, but they don't fall into the category of mammoth bones - such as claims of fossil discoveries of cone-head shaped skulls in Peru. Do we have an article on that claim? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 19:26, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Also, if you will read the article carefully, the view that the Nephilim were part-human and part non-human hybrids is but one common view. Another common and possibly older view is that they were hybrids of two human races stemming from Seth and Cain, who were fully human, though taller than their parents. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 19:31, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

My responses: (1) We have an article about artificial cranial deformation that mentions the cone-head shaped skulls in Peru. I am not aware of any reliable source which has associated these skulls with the Nephilim. (2) The comment by AltıncıTas seemed to presuppose a non-human view of the Nephilim, so I answered accordingly. I agree (and am already aware) that other interpretations of the Nephilim exist. Regarding the Sethite and Cainite view, a mixing of two (purely human) ethnic groups would not produce skeletons that bear unusual characteristics identifying them as Nephilim, as these skeletons would look (and be) fully human. That said, it is possible that some archaeologist/anthropologist has identified a historical ancient Near Eastern group or "mixture of groups" as being at the root of the Nephilim tradition. If such an identification were made, then the archaeologically excavated skeletons of individuals belonging to that group could be deemed the remains of Nephilim in light of that presupposition. If so, it could be worth mentioning in the article, but only if any such claim has been published in a WP:RS. --Mike Agricola (talk) 19:54, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: I did a little follow-up on my suggestion that earlier generations may have mistakenly identified fossils of extinct animals as Nephilim remains. Sure enough, I discovered that Cotton Mather made precisely such a claim about some skeletal remains which are now known to be those of a mastodon. As the claim was made by a famous individual, it is historically significant so I have added it to the article. As there's really no other place to put it, I created a new section entitled "Identification with fossilized remains" which admittedly is a bit of an orphan as the article generally concerns biblical interpretation. --Mike Agricola (talk) 00:45, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

aggeloi

Regarding the LXX Greek "Angels of God", if memory serves me correctly from Greek class years ago, aggeloi is also the Greek word for "Messengers" isn't it? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 01:49, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

You are correct. The basic meaning of αγγελος (plural αγγελοι) is "messenger." Occasionally the Greek Bible (Septuagint + New Testament) uses this word to refer to a human who acts in the capacity of a messenger. For example, the Gospel of Mark 1:2 describes John the Baptist as an αγγελος. The Greek Bible commonly applies it to spiritual beings who function as God's messengers, from which we get the English word "angel." The pertinent question with regards to the article is whether it is appropriate to translate 'οι αγγελοι του θεου as "the angels of God." Now I admit that I'm not an expert, and my Greek skills are shaky at best, but I'm following the precedent of some WP:RS which follow this translation: The Origin of Evil Spirits (pg. 207) and Exploring The Epistle Of Jude (pg. 127) Choosing another translation for αγγελοι which lacks precedent in WP:RS would be WP:OR, unless one or more WP:RS defend the alternative translation. In that case, it would be appropriate to note that the translation is a matter of scholarly controversy and present the various alternative renderings. As an aside that may have some relevance in supplying some context, Deuteronomy 32:8 shows a similar textual difference: the Septuagint employs "angels of God," a DSS Hebrew Deuteronomy manuscript reads "sons of God" (and the Masoretic text has "sons of Israel")! A scholarly source discussing this states that "'angels of God' and 'sons of God' are synonyms" (see A quest for the Assumed LXX Vorlage of the explicit quotations in Hebrews). --Mike Agricola (talk) 17:25, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Offspring of Seth.

A section of the article currently reads (in part): "The Qumran (Dead Sea Scroll) fragment 4Q417 (4QInstruction) contains the earliest known reference to the phrase "children of Seth", stating that God has condemned them for their rebellion. Other early references to the offspring of Seth rebelling from God and mingling with the daughters of Cain, are found in...." A WP:OR tag was recently removed from this section (diff).

It's obviously true that 4Q417 mentions the "children of Seth" (though the assertion that it's the "earliest known reference" should really be supported by a reference). The text also mentions "carnal spirits" who "did not know the difference between good and evil according to the judgment of [God's] spirit." It is plausible that the textual contrast between the children of Seth and the "carnal spirits" means that its author would have agreed with the "mingling" view. But as far as I can tell, the text nowhere states this explicitly, or has anything at all to say about the Nephilim. Hence it's not clear from the text itself how its author would have understood Genesis 6:1-4. However, the article's current text implies that 4Q417 supports the view that the children of Seth mingled with the daughters of Cain. I'm inclined to attach a WP:SYNTH tag to this, unless a reliable source analyzing 4Q417 makes this connection for us. (My reading of 4Q417 is based on A New Translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls by Wise, Abegg and Cook (2005).) --Mike Agricola (talk) 00:14, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I see that a book came out in 2012, Forbidden Theology: Origin of Scriptural God by Miles Navarre that mentions on p. 252 that 4q417 contains the earliest known reference to "children of Seth" and connects it to the mingling view (with Cain's daughters that is.) This information is not necessarily dependent on us, at any rate, it's in the annals of literature. I am certain "carnal spirits" can refer only to humans, "carnal" is latinate for "fleshly" and the corresponding Aramaic idiom certainly means humans. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 00:35, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that Forbidden Theology: Origin of Scriptural God qualifies as a WP:RS. Flipping through the book's introduction and table of contents via the Google Books preview, the author states that he owes all his "personal illumination" to Zecharia Sitchin, Erich von Daniken, Graham Hancock and others of that ilk....and the book seems to make Sitchin-like claims about the Annunaki. A more scholarly source would be (much) preferable for the purpose of citations. What you are saying here may indeed be correct, but like you said, it doesn't depend upon us, but rather upon what the reliable sources state. --Mike Agricola (talk) 00:49, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

OK, I didn't spend enough time finding one of the more scholarly sources that discusses this... Went in a little deeper and got one before long: in The Wisdom Texts from Qumran and the Development of Sapiental Thought (2002), p. 399: "The mythological tradition adopted in 4Q417 1 I 15ff. on the primeval apostasy seems to be a parallel to the tradition of the fall of the watchers which is basically rooted in Gen. 6,1f4 and expanded in 1 En 15.[footnote]" This shows that scholars are well aware of this correspondence and the relevance of the passage, even though curiously this one utterly neglects to mention the fact that 4Q417 says anything about the "children of Seth", who are often identified with the "watchers". Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 01:13, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh, wait, yes he does, on p 393, where he also says when the sons of Seth fell into iniquity at this time, the pious im ruah "people of spirit" or sons of God ("obedient angels") included Enosh, and the "ruah bashar" or spirits of flesh are the "sinful humanity". Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 01:22, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for investigating this. If you have the time, it would be good if you could add this reference to the section. --Mike Agricola (talk) 01:35, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

POV Intro

"The Nephilim /ˈnɛfɨˌlɪm/ were the offspring of the 'sons of God' and the 'daughters of men' according to Genesis 6:4; and giants who inhabited Canaan according to Numbers 13:33" This is POV. It should say something more to the effect of "According to Jewish tradition, the Nephilim were the offspring of the 'sons of God' and the 'daughters of men' according to an interpretation of Genesis 6:4; and giants who inhabited Canaan according to Numbers 13:3." The way it it is written now sounds like the Nephilim are actually mentioned in the Bible, which they are not. Rather, it is based off of folklore and ideology, not actual text in the Old Testament. I've made an edit to better show this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Superbuttons (talk • contribs) 20:49, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Genesis 6:4, Revised Standard Version: The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them.

So maybe specify better what you mean, when you say they "are not mentioned in the Bible"? They are certainly mentioned in some translations. What the original Hebrew says, I couldn't tell you. --Trovatore (talk) 20:56, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

'Nephilim' certainly are mentioned in the original, which is in the Hebrew language. Some sloppier translations may not translate the text correctly, and may omit the name Nephilim or may translate it as something else. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 21:13, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Mention crazy theories?

Should we have a short section at the end mentioning that Nephilim have been the basis for many crazy/conspiracy theories? While the theories themselves are clearly non-verifiable, the fact that they exist and have become a minor culural influence certainly is. (For example I first came here while doing some background reading on conspiracy theories to base a prog rock album on -- I very much doubt they are true but they make for great story material.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.219.110 (talk) 22:26, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Anything can be mentioned provided it is a) reliably sourced, and b) specifically mentions the article topic, Nephilim. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 04:01, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Could be, per WP:WEIGHT, yes, but small sourced and last. But I'm a bit concerned that such a section will be a bad edit magnet. It's easier to blank stuff than have a special fringe section and police it. We already had to fork off Nephilim in popular culture because of the constant barrage of IP additions. Why not spend time and energy actually correctly sourcing the real stuff in the article until it gets to something like the ABD entry on Nephilim. The ABD doesn't have a special fringe and fruit paragraph at the end, why should Wikipedia? In ictu oculi (talk) 08:13, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Hey I was going to say that! I agree entirely. Dougweller (talk) 12:29, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

For a long time we were assured that "fringe" was not a reason not to cover something, but now it seems the concept of "fringe" is gradually being extended to mean "we should not give any coverage, period." Once again, if it is reliably sourced and on topic, there should be darned good reason to exclude it, since in many cases "fringe" is used as a rhetorical phrase boiling down to "I personally don't like it and don't wish these sources to be mentioned." The recent edits did not have any sources that were on topic as they apparently made no mention of "Nephilim", and were correctly reverted. It does seem like the section on "conspiracy theories" might fit the scope of Nephilim in popular culture better than here. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:50, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

No, it's an issue over where to cover it. It's at Sitchin and the popular culture article. Dougweller (talk) 17:42, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

'Nefilem' is an alternate spelling

No one cares what IP socks of User:Brad Watson, Miami post

'Nefilem' is an alternate spelling of the possible extraterrestrials referred to in Genasis 6:4. Using English Gematria of A=1, B=2...Z=26, Nefilem=64=N14+E5+F6+I9+L12+E5+M13. - Benjamin Franklin 65.34.130.188 (talk) 20:16, 23 August 2014 (UTC) Total nonsense. First, no ETs. Secondly, we depend upon academic sources in this article and we should never use our own ideas in editing Wikipedia. Dougweller (talk) 20:54, 23 August 2014 (UTC) Doug: Your opinion is just that, it's "total nonsense", and you "should never use your own ideas in editing Wikipedia" you hypocrite! Furthermore, there are ETs and this article already has references to "Nefilem possibly being extraterrestrials". Also, a NASA conference presentation (4.21.09) is certainly a very valid "academic source"; [spamlink removed] - An Academic 71.196.11.183 (talk) 17:08, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Nephilim possibly Extraterrestrials in Popular culture

History Channel's Ancient Aliens and some Bible experts promote the explanation that the Nephilim - angels from the heavens - were, in fact, extraterrestrials. - An Academic 71.196.11.183 (talk) 17:19, 25 February 2015 (UTC)