Talk:Cold fusion

This article was the subject of mediation during 2009 at User_talk:Cryptic C62/Cold fusion.

Moving on from RFC

The two-part RFC has now been closed. Cold fusion, or reports of cold fusion, may be said to be considered to be pathological science by the mainstream scientific community. Cold fusion may also be categorized in Category 2 as defined by the ArbCom in WP:ARBPS, areas that are generally considered to be pseudoscience but have a following. Any edits that differ with those conclusions are against consensus, and so are disruptive. Any questions that do not contain sufficient to be answered, or any edit requests that do not contain sufficient detail to be understood, may be ignored, but, if persistent, are disruptive editing, and can be dealt with by Arbitration Enforcement.

Now that the RFC has been closed and consensus is established, I will be requesting that this talk page, but not the article page, be unprotected, to allow comments by unregistered editors. However, any disruptive editing of this talk page (which has happened more than once) will either result in its semi-protection again, or in Arbitration Enforcement, or both.

Now that the RFC has been closed, we can move on.

Robert McClenon (talk) 16:34, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I've no idea what this is all about, but you certainly do not have my agreement to the proposition that CF is considered to be pathological science by the mainstream scientific community. The fact that papers on the subject have been published by regular peer-reviewed journals disproves the proposition. This whole business has the air of a coup and smells distinctly nasty. --Brian Josephson (talk) 11:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Certainly RFC could have lasted longer than the default duration (30 days) and not necessarily needed an explicit closure. In cases with obvious lack of consensus like this an explicit closure that just count votes and not !votes is not needed.--86.125.191.31 (talk) 18:59, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

N-rays and polywater were also published in peer-reviewed journals. Perpetual motion machines are still occasionally patented (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_perpetual_motion_machines#1981 to 1999). Being published means next-to-nothing. It is the scientific consensus that is derived through discussion of such publications that brings validity, and when the cold fusion researchers deliberately misunderstand critics and refuse to answer them, they prove they are pathological scientists. Invoking conspiracy theories doesn't help either. Kirk shanahan (talk) 12:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Those mentioned topics have been falsified quite rapidly.--188.27.144.144 (talk) 10:08, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Which doesn't change the fact that pseudoscience got published before, and probably will again. Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:42, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Once falsified, the topics disproved like poliwater have never been investigated and published.--86.125.191.31 (talk) 19:05, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Does this mean that ANY addition to the article supporting the proposition that Cold Fusion is real, and that its investigation is legitimate, if controversial, science, is against the "consensus" and will be regarded as disruptive? Alanf777 (talk) 18:25, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I think that additions to article should be based on reviews articles in journals.--5.15.36.30 (talk) 12:58, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

It depends on what sources support the statement, and how the statement is presented. Compare these two statements:

• "Cold fusion is real, and most scientists agree with this" (link to the self-published website of a supporter)
• "According to historian of science X, cold fusion is currently not considered real by scientists because of Y and Z. But it should be considered real because of R and T." (cite to a scholar book, the author is a guy who specialized in history of physics and has good reviews)

--Enric Naval (talk) 16:19, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

In the latter case, the opinion of historian of science X may be cited with the reference to reasons R and T as the opinion of historian of science X. All statements made in the voice of Wikipedia should be avoided, regardless of what side they are on, because Wikipedia's job is to present the divided voice of mainstream science. Reliable quotes are permitted in the voices of their authors, not of Wikipedia. Quotes that give undue weight to the idea that cold fusion is mainstream should be avoided. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:16, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

It seems reasonable that statements in Wikipedia voice should be avoided. Selection of quotes however isn't a clear cut issue and it can easily be abused. There is no consensus in reliable sources about CF status as fringe or not and Wikipedia should reflect this lack of consensus in sources.--188.27.144.144 (talk) 10:03, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

I would think this article needs to be revisited as pseudoscience: http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LuganoReportSubmit.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.6.9.83 (talk) 06:59, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

The entire point of the discussion above was that we shouldn't change the article every time some blogger comes up with a new screed claiming that this time it's real and not just a scam. That website post is more obvious pseudoscience. For example, on page 28 we find the sentence "In the SIMS analysis the ⁷Li content was only 7.9% and in the ICP-MS analysis it was 42.5%." What would any rational scientist think after measuring the same physical property with two methods and finding that these two measurements contradict each other by far, far more than the accuracy they expect? I'd expect them to investigate to find out how one or both of those contradictory measurements is flawed, or to otherwise explain the discrepancy. These authors reported this obvious contradiction but instead of science their very next sentence is, "This result is remarkable since it shows that the burning process in E-Cat indeed changes the fuel at the nuclear level, i.e. nuclear reactions have taken place." --Noren (talk) 14:40, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

You obviously have not any experience with mass spectrometry to support your statements.--5.15.42.41 (talk) 23:39, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and I noticed that the authors of that 'independent' report thank Industrial Heat LLC (USA) for financial support. That's the company who owns the patent rights to the E-Cat.--Noren (talk) 14:46, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

That doesn't violate independence, companies pay people to independently to verify stuff all the time. Its practically the norm in everything from pharmaceuticals to engineering. If you had any experience with SIMS or ICP-MS (which i do) you might know that they don't work in the same way (measurement affects results in some cases). The difference between SIMS and ICP-MS measurement here could actually help explain whats going on. The important point was that both were lower than originally, even if different samples had slightly different results (grains that were in different places in the reactor interior). My point really is that you shouldn't be so quick to judge someone's findings unless you are an expert in the field. Thats why we source stuff and don't just use OR.Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 14:50, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Indeed the mass spectrometry analysis is very sensitive to the skills of the analist.--82.137.11.180 (talk) 23:24, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't like to say whether there is anything to the LENR claims, but I do think that the downright condemnatory tone of this article clashes with the ecstatic, advert-like tone of the write-ups on other renewable energy topics. We know that other renewables promoters have made some serious exaggerations of the performance of their products, possibly more serious exaggerations than some claims made for LENR. If claims of neutron radiation were unfounded, then disproven claims that for example 'wind power will be continuous because the wind always blows somewhere' should be given the identical condemnatory treatment. There is after all no such thing as 'quack science' -there is just accurate science which precisely describes the behaviour of a system, and inaccurate science which does not. The fact one sounds more plausible than the other does not exclude either from scrutiny as inaccurate science.

Whilst we are told that we may not quote claims for success with LENR made by organizations with vested interests, there seem to be no compunctions whatsoever about basing claims for other renewables on self-quotes from their sellers and promoters. Witness for example the header of the renewable energy page, pulled straight from REN21, and filled with unverified claims for the products listed.

There would seem to be a strong editorial bias here, something which is supposed to be a no-no on Wikipedia. Let's keep things on a level footing.--Anteaus (talk) 09:56, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

The very short response I could make is just a link to WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS—the mere existence of some other articles which handle a topic badly doesn't mean that we should corrupt this article to match. (That said, I think you overstate the issues with renewable energy.) Still, if you want to compare apples and oranges anyway, I'd say that the most fundamental difference is that there is no doubt about the existence of working wind turbines and photovoltaic panels. The underlying physical principles are well-understood, thoroughly-tested, and extensively and credibly published and patented. Individuals, corporations, and national governments can buy and build these devices and structures from numerous commercial entities, and get real, measurable amounts of electricity from them.

The arguments about whether and how to deploy renewable energy technologies variously involve political and philosophical questions, economic questions, balancing environmental concerns, and engineering/efficiency issues. You can argue that a wind-turbine salesman is scamming you by underestimating the lifetime of his turbine or its maintenance requirements. You can argue that the wind-turbine salesman is scamming you by overstating the performance of his turbines under particular local wind conditions, or even by underestimating the number of likely bird strikes. But nobody – well, no reasonable person, and certainly no scientist – can credibly argue that wind is an imaginary phenomenon resulting from the salesman's wishful thinking, selective observations, and imagination. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:31, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Windmills have existed since the Middle Ages, or earlier. In 1952, fusion was used to blow a hole in an island. Both undoubtedly exist. There are nevertheless doubts as to whether fusion can be perfomed in a test tube, and there are doubts as to whether wind turbines can replace fossil fuel power stations. Interestingly, the issue of intermittency figures in both. LENR experimenters do not seem to be able to achieve repeatable or consistent results. Presently, we do not know why that is. By contrast, the intermittency of wind is well understood by meteorological scientists, and if they had been asked about this aspect they would no doubt have pointed out the errors in the assumption that geographically wide-scale deployment would eliminate the intermittency of wind energy.

The nonrepeatability of LENR results has been attributed to poor experimental technique, although there does not seem to be any concrete proof of this attribution. If this nonrepeatability can be understood and resolved, then LENR may possibly be a viable energy source. By contrast, we know that the intermittency of wind (and solar PV) is a fundamental property, and cannot be resolved. Wind energy marketers have responded by claiming that advanced energy storage technologies will resolve the intermittency -A claim for which there is no more scientific basis than the claim of test-tube fusion, since the touted energy storage technologies do not yet exist, and may never exist.

It might be added that failure to successfully repeat an experiment does not constitute disproof of the original result. That amounts to argument by way of ineptitude - 'Because I cannot do this, it follows that nobody else can.' Possible reasons for the failed replications have been discussed elsewhere -Contaminated cathodes through reusing old palladium, rushing to meet publication deadlines, etc.

Anyway, I digress. The key point here is not whether other poor articles exist, but that a consistent policy ought to exist with regard to cyclic references, that is, quoting from an organization's PR material when that same organization has most likely paid you to write the WP article. As suggested above this practice is not always bad, but in some circumstances where heavy WP:PROMOTION is involved, it is reprehensible.--Anteaus (talk) 19:06, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Okay, we'll agree to leave aside your rather dubious analogies and stick to your "key point"—can you identify the articles where there are editors with a conflict of interest, and go through the appropriate processes to clean them up? If editors with a clear COI have been editing renewable energy articles in a misleading, deceptive, or otherwise-suboptimal manner, then that's a potentially-serious problem in those articles, and something that you should definitely raise on their talk respective talk pages and the relevant noticeboards. Nothing you have said suggests to me that it would be a good idea to puff this article up with pro-cold-fusion material from fringe proponents. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:11, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Nobody is suggesting that the 'magnet motor brigade' be let loose in here. However, to take just one example, this list seems fairly convincing. I guess it could be fake, and the way to find that out would be to ask a few members if they gave their permission to be included. I'm sure you are aware that NASA has published articles on the subject, suggesting that it merits further research.

BTW I have in the past suggested that independent citations be required for claims made of renewable energy technologies. Doing so doesn't seem to achieve much. --Anteaus (talk) 17:15, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Again, the place to discuss problems with other articles is on the talk pages of those articles. Encouraging the importation of poor practices from other areas here is a non-starter.

Name-dropping for the sake of name-dropping from that list (or any other) is a dubious approach. For almost any fringe position it is possible to find a scientist who will endorse some portion or another of it; saying "Wow! There's two PowerPoint slides' worth of scientists who endorse this (or at least some part of it)!" is just another way of writing "There are hundreds or thousands of scientists who aren't terribly impressed." This type of tactic has been regularly use to give a false impression of the scientific view of topics like creationism and climate-change denial; it's also a recurring problem when news outlets always present – and give equal time and credence to – one expert from each 'side' of an issue, regardless of how the topic is actually treated within the scientific community. So...no; not a good approach here either.

At this point, since you haven't actually been suggesting specific article edits and it seems unlikely that any plausible ones will be forthcoming, I'm going to disengage; I don't have the time to get sucked into endless back-and-forth for the sake of back-and-forth. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:13, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, well, I think you've shown your hand with the invocation of climate change denial. There is no point in attempting any kind of rational discussion where that odious paradigm dictates what may be said, and what might be heresy. Nor of offering any real science for the article. Bye. --Anteaus (talk) 22:38, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if I would consider a list of names something crediting a claim like, "Hundreds or thousands of scientists don't believe in x y or z." It's dubious only in that there would need to be some kind of source for each scientist to which the list refers. I want to call attention to the perception of false attention. Obviously we can't really use names as a source for something being believed, but what's the real point there? Aren't we wanting to use articles or research for that? The name might come in way of the author who wrote whatever it is we're reffering, but having a list of names doesn't really say much, even if a slide says they "endorse" it. If it's a provable theory that is in discussion, whether or not people believe in it or endorse it will matter. Here's 30 scientists who endorse gravity. That doesn't mean there's hundreds who don't. Maybe a little farfetched, sure, but you get where my angle is. The articles and sources are above all the most important for any article, and not who is represented in the spearheading of a belief or operation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chewbakadog (talk • contribs) 22:51, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

The research of Steven Jones at Brigham Young has not been vetted in this article. It is very significant and peer reviewed in Nature. Also, the back-stabbing, slanderous activity of competing physics labs is significant, especially when they all secretly patented their unique versions of the experiments. Most of the recent patents do not say "cold fusion". They say "muon catalyzed", "piezonuclear" or "plasma" experiments because the patent office would summarily trash can anything that said "cold fusion". This kind of sophomoric playground nonsense always occurs in scientific organizations prior to paradigm shift (the rush to publish, own and monetize). CF is recognized as occurring at atomic levels, just not at practical energy-producing levels, yet. I think I know what they are doing wrong, and I am not talking. I need a couple hundred thousand dollars to prove it.

D8. Publishable results obtained in 1988-1989

In August 1988, we did gamma-ray studies, using the sodium-iodine detector easiest set up. As before, we saw only non-significant hints of gamma production in our 3 inch sodium iodide counter, so we decided to concentrate on using the neutron spectrometer, which was fully conditioned for use in late 1988. Our first studies with this spectrometer were done using titanium, palladium, tantalum, nickel, aluminum, iron, and lanthanum. We also used several methods of loading deuterium into metals, including the original electrochemical method. Thus, we performed anew the experiment which we had started in May 1986, namely electrolytic infusion of deuterium into metals, but with a much-improved neutron detector. Of these experiments, Paul Palmer records: "Steve [Jones] and Bart [Czirr] have set up experiments exactly as we did a year or so ago and looked for fusion-generated neutrons in Bart's liquid-scintillator, low-resolution spectrometer.....As in the previous work, the results were tantalizingly positive." Within a few weeks, the results had reached a statistical significance of over five standard deviations. We also found correlations between tritium detected in Hawaii and volcanic eruptions there, in agreement with expectations that piezonuclear fusion occurs in the earth. We decided in early February to publish our results. ........

It is noteworthy that our paper to Nature was published (April 1989, 338:737)

Danarothrock (talk) 09:08, 26 December 2014 (UTC) Thats soo oldschool. Nowadays, truth is democratic ;-)). If nobody reads your papers - they are fraud. Even the attached handwritings are highly suspicious. Everybody knows that serious science involves the usage of computers. lol. "The two-part RFC has now been closed. Cold fusion, or reports of cold fusion, may be said to be considered to be pathological science by the mainstream scientific community. Cold fusion may also be categorized in Category 2 as defined by the ArbCom in WP:ARBPS, areas that are generally considered to be pseudoscience but have a following. Any edits that differ with those conclusions are against consensus, and so are disruptive." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.161.248.25 (talk) 16:38, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I think the larger point here is that ArbCom have ruled. Since they are, essentially, the "supreme court" here at Wikipedia, we really have to follow their ruling. Arguing about whether it's a valid ruling or not doesn't belong here - it belongs with ArbCom. Even if you have a completely convincing argument and swayed the opinions of all of us here - you'd STILL have to take that to ArbCom in order to get their ruling reversed. So, honestly, the debate should be over and done with in this forum - and continuing to push it is disruptive editing - which can get you in trouble here. We're going to call Cold Fusion 'a pathalogical science' - we're not going to call it 'good science' and we're probably not going to call it 'pseudoscience' either. Debate is therefore closed until/unless ArbCom are presented with new evidence and persuaded to reconsider. SteveBaker (talk) 18:51, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

They have not ruled anything. Content aspects are not in their domain. They have only defined general categories not specific to CF.--86.125.172.120 (talk) 20:15, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, I respect roles and processes. Cold Fusion in its original physical sense is "dead". The article covers this issue with "There are many reasons why known fusion reactions are unlikely explanations for the excess heat and associated claims described above." This means that a (known) fusion reaction has to have properties like production of deuterium and gamma radiation. But the decision if this article deals with low temperature effect with known fusion reaction characteristics - or anomalous heat generation without known fusion characteristics isnt taken. Its well mixed up - and even the move to relable anomalous heat generation without known fusion characteristics as "LENR" is misinterpreted as synonym for cold fusion - instead of a clear new generated category in physics. So there would be some need to differentiate between CF in physical and common sense - as well as a differentiation with LENR - which is definitely something different as CF. Does ArbCom decision apply to all this 3 different items ? Thats the primary question. Does ArbCom decision covers these aspects ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.22.182.233 (talk) 23:01, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

References

You make some good points there. The naming of the phenomenon as 'Cold fusion' was by the press, not by researchers, and was perhaps unfortunate as the name itself creates presumptions, perhaps unjustified ones, about what properties should be observable. The accusations of 'junk science' stem from two sources: Inability to replicate the results, and inability to observe the byproducts of nuclear processes. The former would seem to be have been a consequence of rushed and inept replication due to a presumption that the work was a waste of time, whilst the latter arises from taking the press-given name of the process literally. At present, all that is definitely known is that certain processes produce more heat than the law of energy conservation would allow. Exactly how this arises, is not known. --Anteaus (talk) 22:41, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Since there is a dearth of references in this article on the subject since 2011 (and only a very few from 2000, relative to the number of research articles available on the topic), it might be worthwhile adding a reference and link (http://www.currentscience.ac.in/php/spl.php?splid=2) to the 25 Feb 2015 issue of Current Science that has a special section on low energy nuclear reactions. It contains 30 peer-reviewed papers (theoretical and experimental)on the subject and they are all available online for free. Most of the papers are of a review nature (with references to prior work) and new research results were not encouraged by the guest editors, so there is only a very few cases of previously unreported research in the papers presented. Since I am one of the guest editors, I am not allowed to contribute this information to the Wiki article. I hope that someone else will do so. Aqm2241 (talk) 17:18, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

We seem to be missing an explanation of LENR!

Search Wikipedia for LENR, and you get redirected to this page, which is all about the discredited Fleischmann–Pons experiment.

There is a mention of LENR, it suggests that it's an alternative name used by a small group of researchers who are continuing to attempt the Fleischmann–Pons experiment.

I was trying to find out more information about LENR research which has gone well beyond this, essentially not doing traditional fusion of deutrium to Helium but from Nickel to Copper, or Carbon to Nickel. This page seems irrelevant to the subject.

Here is a paper illustrating a typical contemporary LENR experiment:

http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LuganoReportSubmit.pdf

And here is an interesting article from NASA:

http://climate.nasa.gov/news/864/

I do hope you gentlemen can stop squabbling about a 25 year old experiment and get on with explaining what is happening with contemporary LENR research.

Either that or stop redirecting LENR here because it's very misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roger Irwin (talk • contribs) 14:50, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Indeed this article seems rather hanged in the past and based on quite very old sources from the beginning of the 1990's to establish/asses feasability like this.--5.15.61.82 (talk) 22:39, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

This source has(d) a significant assessment : Harvard scientists have also expressed skepticism about cold fusion.--5.15.61.82 (talk) 22:48, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps it is about Soviet Harvard scientists, as described by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. There is also a reference to Soviet embassy in Washington in this link including Harvard scientists.--79.119.209.81 (talk) 14:41, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

It is mentioned in a lower section that Nickel is often used in experiments as well. The lugano report is not a reliable source (not peer reviewed and a primary source). A specific LENR article is not advised, as LENR is not a universal tagline for the field (some prefer LANR CANR etc.) Cold fusion is still a convenient tagline for the field, and will likely continue to be so until/unless a verifiable theory comes up to explain the effect. There has been some discussion about splitting Cold fusion and the Pons/Fleischman Experiment into separate articles however. Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 00:25, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi Roger Irwin, did you read the section directly above this one yet? It seems to be about the same subject. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 10:36, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid I didn't. I started reading this (rather long) talk page at the top, but after reading about 10 minutes of FP bashing and naval gazing I gave up. In effect at the bottom the discussion does get more to the point.

But the real issue is that the caboodle (including talk page) really could be condensed more than a zip file full of spaces:

1) What is Cold Fusion (Fusion reactions achieved without artificial sun like conditions)

1) Summary of PF, problems with results and non repeatably; Link to a specific article about the experiment and the controversy etc (it is relevant to science history etc).

3) A brief paragraph for each of the hypothesized or attempted methods, citing experimental work in course, or linking to specific articles for more detailed experiments such as NIF's lasers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.8.75.112 (talk) 20:57, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree that this format would be better than what we have now, which is a bloated and unfocused article. I believe that a splitting of the article could be achieved without changing any of its content and result in two articles that are both superior to the one we have now. Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 03:30, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I am troubled by attempts to stretch the definition of "cold fusion" to include inertial confinement (as is involved at the NIF, for instance). Inertial confinement is definitely a "hot fusion" method, relying on extraordinarily high temperatures and pressures (albeit for very short periods of time)—and also relying, not incidentally, on widely-accepted physics. Yes, the fuel is 'cold' when it goes into the chamber, but it's damnably hot before anyone expects it to fuse. (This sort of semantic reframing and redefinition is kind of like what happens when homeopaths try to suggest that what they're dealing with is actually a form of hormesis, to try to add a gloss of credibility to what is otherwise scientifically implausible.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

@Roger Irwin: Energy Catalyzer is an article. E-Cat has been around for a long time without producing any creditable results. They won't let any credible group test the process on that group's own terms. It would appear that the above NASA article was poorly researched nasa watch, using a single bad source. I would really, really like to see a Mr. Fusion Home Energy Reactor. Scams, an energy source, do not make. Jim1138 (talk) 06:08, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

That route is very susceptible to giving undue weight. Pons-Fleishman has by far received the most coverage in reliable sources, and our article should reflect that. This is similar to the situation described in WP:GEVAL. Pons-Fleishman is simply the most noteworthy instance of LENR/cold fusion research as reflected by reliable sources. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:18, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

There is an external link to [[1]] but perhaps a better link might be:

http://lenr-canr.org/index/DownloadOnly/DownloadOnly.php

which is a php generated table which can be sorted by publication date and author name. Most of the pdf links on the iscmns.org site go to the lenr-canr.org site anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.201.101.145 (talk) 13:52, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

This list seems extensive enough to warrant a revision in this outdated statement in the article: "Since cold fusion articles are rarely published in peer-reviewed mainstream scientific journals, they do not attract the level of scrutiny expected for science.[14]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.6.130.136 (talk) 17:42, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Publications like Infinite Energy aren't really peer-reviewd mainstream scientific journals. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:50, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Right, though we should look at this list in more detail. How about Journal. Condensed Matter Nucl. Sci. http://www.iscmns.org/CMNS/CMNS.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.6.130.136 (talk) 22:23, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

That's a dedicated cold fusion publication down to Fleischmann-Pons apologism. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 22:39, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. Not a serious journal. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:27, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

The reference to lenr-canr.org is just as non-mainstream as an external reference to iscmns.org which went unchallenged. But the lenr-canr.org page has some advantages over the other external references. If somebody wants to read some LENR papers and let the authors speak for themselves, they ought to have ample external references. I just wanted to add the link. (Entropy7 (talk) 22:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC))

Since there is a dearth of references in this article on the subject since 2011 (and only a very few from 2000, relative to the number of research articles available on the topic), it might be worthwhile adding a reference and link (http://www.currentscience.ac.in/php/spl.php?splid=2) to the 25 Feb 2015 issue of Current Science that has a special section on low energy nuclear reactions. It contains 30 peer-reviewed papers (both theoretical and experimental)on the subject of cold fusion and they are all available online for free. Most of the papers are of a review nature (with references to prior work) and new research results were not encouraged by the guest editors, so there is only a very few cases of previously unreported research in the papers presented. Since I am one of the guest editors, I am not allowed to contribute this information to the Wiki article. I hope that someone else will do so. Aqm2241 (talk) 17:22, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

This "special section" was previously discussed on this talk page at Talk:Cold fusion/Archive 47#Current Science Journal Has Special Section on LENR in upcoming issue. Frankly, it looks like something weird happened with Current Science. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:13, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

An interesting link [2]. The first paper mentioned in the list addresses theoretical perspective on CF/LENR/CMNS.--5.15.185.29 (talk) 23:25, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

The authors of the review are from a mathematics department which is very suitable because the theory in CF as well as in conventional nuclear physics is/must be undoubtedly mathematical belonging to mathematical physics.--5.15.185.29 (talk) 23:34, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

'Cold Fusion' was a fusion of hydrogen atoms to produce helium using a lattice to reduce the required energy. Low Energy Nuclear Reactions use an as yet unproven technique (Muon like catalyzed fusion perhaps, or other theories like Widom Larson or quantum tunneling have been proposed) to slip a proton-electron hydrogen atom into a much larger metal atom like Nickel or tin or iron, then there is radio-active decay that releases energy, an electron released or the proton and electron in the nucleus collapse onto a neutron. A redirect from LENR to cold fusion is like redirecting from Quantum Mechanics to an article on gambling. The net effect is that about five years of peer reviewed material and break through science are being entirely ignored and not reported on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.118.249.4 (talk) 17:20, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Pseudo palladium tests in CMNS

I think that the article should specify if there are some reported results in peer-reviewed journal articles from European Physical Journal, International Journal of Hydrogen Energy or other (mainstream?) journals on using pseudo palladium in CF experiments.--94.53.199.249 (talk) 12:53, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

New Patents

What concerns the patent applications, there is probably a pending german application from Airbus describing an LENR reactor. https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=bibdat&docid=DE102013110249A1 Its not granted yet, but quite noteable.143.161.248.25 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 09:15, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I think the following content regarding patents is relevant to the patent section and should be included because it could be one reason why some patents related to LENR/Cold Fusion have been rejected:

A patent law firm in Silicon Valley, California that represents at least one LENR firm sued the USPTO using the Freedom of Information Act procedure to uncover a secret program for delaying patents called the Sensitive Application and Warning System (SAWS). Once subjected to scrutiny the USPTO agreed to cancel the SAWS procedure. rochester.edu APPENDIX E: Introduction to the Scientific Method (Climate Challenge (talk) 21:32, 26 March 2015 (UTC))

This link does not discuss SAWS. Jim1138 (talk) 21:39, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Multiple meanings?

Are there more meanings to the term cold fusion? This phyiscist Robert Smolanczuk has an article with cold fusion in title Smolanczuk, R. (1999). "Production a mechanism of superheavy nuclei in cold fusion reactions". Physical Review C. 59 (5): 2634–2639. Bibcode:1999PhRvC..59.2634S. doi:10.1103/PhysRevC.59.2634..--86.125.182.23 (talk) 15:02, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Per WP:NOTFORUM - This talk page is for discussing improvements to the article. If you wish to suggest an edit such as an addition of a claim such as above, please use a wp:edit request. Make sure to use the proper method. If you wish to discuss aspects of fusion itself, I would suggest finding a forum elsewhere than Wikipedia. Claimants have described many supposed fusion mechanisms. See Cold fusion#See also. Cheers Jim1138 (talk) 16:40, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I see this discussion and I think it would be an improvement to the article to specify if the term has other meanings beside the main one presented here. If there are multiple meanings, perhaps a link to cold fusion (disambiguation) is useful. So the WP:NOTFORUM aspect has no place here.--5.15.177.195 (talk) 08:34, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I see that there are indeed multiple meanings as the disambiguation page says. Perhaps an article cold fusion (superheavy nuclei) should be created.--5.15.177.195 (talk) 08:45, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Tohoku University CMNS research program

I think this should be mentioned in article: the launching of a CMNS research program at Tohoku University http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/03/30/cold-fusion-by-2020-olympics-clean-planet-inc-and-tohoku-university-launch-clean-energy-lenr-research-lab/.

Any thoughts/comments to this news suggestion/addition to article?--5.15.12.43 (talk) 10:43, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

The above links to a blog post that in turn links to a press release. Neither appears to be an appropriate source for this article. --Noren (talk) 16:34, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

What would be an appropriate source if a press release does not qualify?--79.119.210.211 (talk) 17:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)