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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 66.49.148.92 (talk) at 05:17, 8 November 2015 (→‎rudra reference). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Good articleShiva has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 3, 2008Good article nomineeListed
June 6, 2010Good article reassessmentKept
Current status: Good article

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Brahma Kumaris

Brahma Kumar and Brahma Kumaris follow God Shiva. We have 1,000,000 followers and 8,500 centers and give accurate knowledge, also associated with United Nations and many VIPs come. What is problem?

Our WikipediA homepage has many references.

shiva's son ayyappa

Namaskaram all. this talk page new section created to stop edit war.especially edit war created by the user Redtigerxyz. Please explain mr Redtigerxyz why ayyappa name do not occur in the lead?NamaskaramEshwar.omTalk tome 19:06, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

According to talk page of the user Redtigerxyz ,what he mentioned as a reference which is not reliable reference.Will you agree MrRedtigerxyz?NamaskaramEshwar.omTalk tome 20:06, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ayyappa is a regional deity from Kerala, which hardly any basis in the pan-Hindu scriptures like the Puranas or the epics. There are several regional deities who enjoy the same claim of being Shiva's child; see "Ascetic and Householder" section. Why should Ayyappa be given priority over Manasa from Bengal, Ashokasundari from Gujarat, the Tamil Aiyangar or Hanuman (who in only 1 scripture the Shiva Purana is the son of Shiva and Mohini; not in lead as a fringe belief).--Redtigerxyz Talk 16:26, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Namaskaram mr red tiger. Do you have any idea or list for pan hindu gods.let me know then will it help me in future?how to say it s fringe belief?could you explain ?Then it more helpfull fr me.might you do that for me.thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eshwar.om (talk • contribs) 22:00, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Actually the infobox only contains the name of those children of Shiva which are accepted by Majority of scriptures. Kartikeya and Ganesha are but not Aiyappa. He is only accepted as Shiva's child in some scriptures. There are many other children of Shiva in other legends and scriptures like Ashokasundari, Vishnu maya, Sasha and many more. But this infobox should only contains those which are accepted Shiva's children by majority of legends and scriptures. These other children of Shiva like Aiyappa are not mentioned at all in majority of scriptures. MythoEditor (talk) 08:08, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
hi MythoEditor. can you tell any reliable indian goverment source for that.(both state, centeral govt of india)?!!Eshwar.omTalk tome 11:54, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We wouldn't use a government source for something like this. Such sources are too often political, determined by the party in power at the time.Dougweller (talk) 13:23, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
hi mr Dougweller Namaskaram(hai), Are you making fun about Govt of india and its policy.Let me know.if it is not then what do you mean.what do you thinking about People and Govt of India.i will escalate this matter.but before let me know something from you?Eshwar.omTalk tome 19:07, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Eshwar.om do you yourself have any source that Ayyappa is mentioned in any Sanskritic texts. You don't and that my friend is double standards. Academic sources like books are generally preferred in mythological articles since they are written by academic scholars (atleast sometimes) and thus much more reliable and accurate than some random website on the internet that contains information about religion even if it's a governmet source. Actually government sources are generally not used on Wikipedia. Here is one of the books that mentions that Ayyappan is worshipped mainly in Tamil Nadu and Kerala (http://books.google.co.in/books?id=xTJpU6NQ5B4C&pg=PA124&dq=ayyappan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eFqZU9vgAsanlAWVwoHoAQ&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=ayyappan&f=false)
Also I wonder why do you want really insist so much on inserting Ayyappa's name. Do you in actual have any proof that Ayyapan is mentioned in the majority of the Sanskritic tex A person does not always have what he wishes on Wikipedia. Sometimes you just have to accept it and move on because that's how Wikipedia works.. MythoEditor (talk) 07:52, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Namaskaram Mr MythoEditor, You said "A person does not always have what he wishes on Wikipedia. Sometimes you just have to accept it and move on because that's how Wikipedia works.,yes your correct but dont forget it will suit for you too.and dont forget you blocked recently moretimes.how kaali for west bangal similar likr Tamilnadu main god is karthick.yes tamils worship ayyappa too.Tamil worship vishnu,siva,even some where in tn bramma too.both vaishnava and siva bakthi movement start from Tamil speaking region of south india.i know you know history atleast.yes i am from that region.so better than you i know well.i hope you Can understand.dont forget wikipedia is reliable.Namaskaram Eshwar.omTalk tome 18:54, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
When I said person does not always have what he wishes on Wikipedia I wasn't intimidating you. I was just telling you it's not necessary that our edits will be accepted by the others and everything I said was in good faith. I already know Shiva and Vishnu and other goda are worshipped in Tamil Nadu. I'm an Indian too. But Ayappa is mostly worshipped in Kerala and Tamil Nadu but Ayyappa is not worshipped by North Indians. I too didn't want Ashoksundari article to be created since I thought she was a work of fiction. I started edit warring over it which I accept was wrong on my part. Later when I found out that theAshoksundari did exist in Padma Purana I myself endorsed the article about Ashoksundari not becauseof any fear because i had realized my mistake and I had even apologized for it.. But that was in the past so you should stop trying to say yo someone that they have been blocked especially when there comments and edits are in good faith. Now I ask you Eshwar.om do you have any proof that Ayyappa exists in the majority of Hindu scriptures like Kartikeya and Ganesha or any Sanskritic scripture? You don't and yet while you ask that others o prove their statement with proof you yourself are not providing any proof for your statement. It is disappointing that while you much are more experienced you are resorting to such double standards. MythoEditor (talk) 07:25, 13 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
User:Eshwar.om I am not making fun of anything, I am simply stating the fact that the Indian government is not considered by Wikipedia to be a reliable source on this sort of religious matter. Our policy on sources is at WP:VERIFY and WP:RS. This doesn't mean that if they made a statement on a religious matter we wouldn't include it, just that we wouldn't see them as the deciding element. There was once an attempt to insist that Jayadeva was born in Odisha because there were state publications saying he was, but as that is disputed we simply made it clear that there was a dispute and did not accept the statement by the state government as fact. You are still a very new editor and like all new editors have a lot to learn about. At about 125,000 edits(a bit more than your 790) I am still learning. Dougweller (talk) 11:32, 13 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Dougweller,

i understand.thank you for your Explanation.Yes compare with you i am still a very new editor.At about 125,000 edits(a bit more than my 790) you are still learning.But i am start learning. You are always my Inspiration.Please Remember no Quesions on that.thank you.Eshwar.omTalk tome 03:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Eshwar.om: I recently got to this article and have read about this whole situation. Basically User:MythoEditor is right in saying that unless you yourself have a proof that a deity is worshipped in some place you cannot ask others provide a proof that they are not worshipped in that place since doing that is a double standard. Although we cannot explicitly mention in an article that the deity is not worshipped there however the lack of existence of proof of that deity being worshipped there can itself be somewhat taken that they are not worshipped there sometimes. Also remember that MythoEditor has already proved that Ayyappa is mostly worshipped in Tamil Nadu and Kerala. That means even if he might be worshipped by any other state his worship is very limited. I have read many scriptures of Hinduism and never have I once encountered the name of any other children of Shiva other tthan Kartikeya and Ganesha nor I have read anywhere that name of the "other children" of Shiva exists in the Sanskritic scriptures although I have read that Ashokasundari exists in Padma Purana. Adding Ayyappa's name is not only unjustified but also somewhat WP:UNDUE since it should only exist those children's names who are held to exist by a majority of scholars and are mentioned in the majority of Hiundu legends and scriptures. For example just because somebody says that Mahatama Gandhi had 5 children should we list a 5th child? No unless it can be proven that he in real has a 5th child we cannot even mention about this in his article. Similar is this case. I'm not saying that Ayyappa is a flase deity just that he is not mentioned in the majority of scriptures and Hindu legends. KahnJohn27 (talk) 12:13, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

i am sorry Mr KahnJohn27.What your saying? even siva s another son karthick is mostly worshipped in Tamil Nadu and also Kerala.Mainly in tamilnadu.so will you remove his name too from lead.Is that your telling?even karthick called God of Tamils.I hope you know those history and all.Eshwar.omTalk tome 18:58, 21 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Eshwar.om Sorry for pinging you after so much time for this. Kartikeya is even worshipped in North India and is regarded as Shiva's son by maority of North Indians. However Ayyappa is neither worshipped nor his existence is regarded as true by North Indians. Ayyappa is only a god of South Indian Hindus. While Kartikeya is regarded as a son of Shiva by everyone. As simple as that. KahnJohn27 (talk) 12:56, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
hi kahn john any way you accepted Ayyappa is only a god of South Indian Hindus.my question is South india belongs to india or belongs to some others country?!Eshwar.omTalk tome 21:17, 9 March 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Article disimprovements

Can someone look at this and see if the changes are appropriate for a WP:GA. Much of it looks like barely understandable text to me. --NeilN talk to me 01:14, 9 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, those are certainly POV, redundant, miplaced and misformatted edits. I have just not bothered to revert them for now since edit-warring with sock-farms and IPs is a unproductive exercise with some admins unfamiliar with the subject liable to treat it as content dispute and block "both" sides. Have requested the page to be semi-protected instead, and hopefully the SPI will be attended to soon.
As for the content issue: note that back in March when dealing with presumably the same user(s), I had edited the section content to reflect what the sources say about the association with Tamil word for 'red'. Goes without saying that if there is anything I missed, or additional reliable sources available, that can be discussed here on the talkpage. Abecedare (talk) 01:27, 9 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Abecedare, unfortunately with Salvidrim! fully protecting, we now have that stuff stuck in a good article for the next 7 days. Wait until the WP:SPI is done and then do an edit request? --NeilN talk to me 02:54, 9 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for putting the article back to a stable version Salvidrim!. --NeilN talk to me 03:03, 9 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Salvidrim!, thank you for intervening, but is full protection really necessary? I wanted to do some copyediting and now I can't... Isn't semi-protection enough now that the POV pushers and their sockpuppets have been blocked? QVVERTYVS (hm?) 13:36, 9 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"The root word √śi"

I've never before seen etymologies denoting roots with the sign √, but the section Shiva#Etymology and other names does. Shall we remove it? It seems to be a idiosyncrasy of sanskritdictionary.com and it looks strange to me. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 18:35, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That was probably added by me, and while I believe I have seen the root symbol used for Root (linguistics) elsewhere, that might just be a false memory/confirmation bias on my part. In any case, the symbol is unimportant on this page and I am fine with its removal. Abecedare (talk) 18:47, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed edits

Here are some suggestions for edits to this article:

  • Shiva#Rudra needs a definite article before "Hindu text".
  • Axel Michaels the Indologist suggests that Shaivism, like Vaishnavism, implies a unity which cannot be clearly found either in religious practice or in philosophical and esoteric doctrine. Furthermore, practice and doctrine must be kept separate.
  • Move to Position within Hinduism? It isn't about the deity's origins at all.
  • The paragraph Shiva#Shakti gives a Tamil spelling for unclear reasons, even though the name is Sanskrit in origin. A leftover from the recent edit war? I guess it can just go.
  • Shiva#Buddhism: needs a contradiction tag, or a fix, for "active ... and more passive" (?).

I'll perform these myself once the page protection expires, unless someone beats me to it. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 18:44, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Did all the edits; someone should check my fix for the final problem. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 19:16, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Shiva in Africa

I was wondering why it is not mentioned that Shiva is also worshiped as an ancient African deity, known by many appellations. For example, Amongst the Vodoun tradition of West Africa, he is worshiped in his great hunter/warrior aspects. Many devotees are actually born with this deity, and must have ceremony. Prior to the introduction of Mohammedan Islam and Christianity, the lingham, Yoni and serpent worshiping cults were once pervasive all throughout ancient Africa. Some African traditional mythology states that Shiva was actually Osiris, and that his hair was originally in matted locs. Pravati/Saraswati was a manifestation of Isis, and that both of their worship was introduced into India by the ancient Kalamukhas who originated out of Ethiopia, Egypt and Somali. What is certain, is that his worship was the same in both Africa and India. This observation was noted by a quote in Godfrey Higgins Anacalypsis Vo I. pg. 57, where he states: "It is a well known fact . . . Hindu soldiers when they arrived in Egypt . . . recognized the Gods of their country in the ancient temple, particularly their God Krishna." There are other noted similarities too numerous to name. My point is that an entire ancient spiritual and cultural history of Shiva's origins in ancient Africa before his acceptance into Hinduism should also be a part of this article.2602:306:25E0:5479:FD1B:CA69:A92F:ACFE (talk) 16:38, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have reliable sources for your assertions? --NeilN talk to me 20:18, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Serpent-worshiping cults and religions, along with cults and religions that use male genitalia as religious symbals have been found throughout the world. Current evidence very strongly suggests, if not blatantly outright demonstrates that the vast majority of these cults arose and evolved without any influence from devotees of Shiva or Hindu missionaries. For example, I strongly doubt that the Roman god Priapus, or the Aztec god Quetzalcoatl have anything in common with Shiva. That, and can you provide a quote of that passage with the ellipses filled in?--Mr Fink (talk) 20:31, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

rudra reference

Unfortunately with the rise of Sanatana Dharma, many mantras and Vedic gods are related to non-Vedic gods that got absorbed into Hinduism. Shiva may have been a non vedic god that had similarities to Rudra and as was custom during those times, Sanatana Dharma kept absorbing more gods into its pantheon until the result is the million pantheon . more gods than people in india

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