Talk:Paleolithic diet

Tooth enamel analysis etc.

I am moving this content from the article page for discussion as it seems violently off topic (or is OR) for the "paleo diet" as popularized in contemporary culture. Could some of this maybe find a home in the Paleolithic article?

[Moved content]

While the consumption of animals grazing on C4 pastures can contribute to C4 isotopic signatures, the magnitude of ¹³C enrichment—used to infer C3/C4 ratios—in early hominid fossils suggests that the carbon in their diet was derived mainly from C4 plants rather than the tissues of animals grazing on C4 grasses. Very high proportions of animal food are not considered plausible for hominids given that even modern hunter gatherers armed with bows and arrows tend to have dismal hunting success, and hominids lack the appropriate dental morphology of a high meat diet. Expanding on those findings, Oxford University researchers observed that baboons today eat large quantities of starchy C4 tiger nut tubers and the wear patterns on the tooth enamel from these sedge tubers are a perfect match with the wear patterns on the enamel of Paranthropus boisei ('Nutcracker Man')—a hominid, with a high C4 isotopic signature, who lived in East Africa between 2.4 million and 1.4 million years ago. The Oxford University study therefore concluded that Paranthropus boisei survived mainly on a diet of starchy tiger nut tubers. Dr Gabriele Macho, a lead researcher on the study from the School of Archaeology at Oxford University, said "I believe that the theory—that 'Nutcracker Man' lived on large amounts of tiger nuts—helps settle the debate about what our early human ancestor ate. On the basis of recent isotope results, these hominins appear to have survived on a diet of C4 foods, which suggests grasses and sedges. Yet these are not high quality foods. What this research tells us is that hominins were selective about the part of the grass that they ate, choosing the grass bulbs at the base of the grass blade as the mainstay of their diet." Incidentally, tiger nut tubers were among the earliest plants cultivated by humans, including ancient Egyptians and Paleo-Indians. Additionally, recent understanding of the human genome has shown that modern humans typically have many copies of the AMY1 gene for starch digestion—suggesting widespread evolutionary adaptation to starch consumption by humans. Furthermore, the restriction of starchy plants, by definition, severely limits the dietary intake of microbiota-accessible carbohydrates (MACs) and may negatively affect the microbiome in ways that contribute to disease. Starchy plants, in particular, are a main source of resistant starch — a dietary fiber with strong prebiotic properties. Resistant starches are not digestible by mammals and are fermented and metabolized by gut flora into short chain fatty acids, which are well known to offer a wide range of health benefits. Resistant starch consumption has been shown to improve intestinal/colonic health, blood sugar, glucose tolerance, insulin-sensitivity and satiety. Public health authorities and food organizations such as the Food and Agricultural Organization, the World Health Organization, the British Nutrition Foundation recognize resistant starch as a beneficial carbohydrate. The Joint Food and Agricultural Organization of the United Nations/World Health Organization Expert Consultation on Human Nutrition stated, "One of the major developments in our understanding of the importance of carbohydrates for health in the past twenty years has been the discovery of resistant starch."

References

Criticism section needed

I've removed the following, because it belongs to a criticism section - to be created.

[removed content]

In 2012 the paleolithic diet was described as being one of the "latest trends" in diets, based on the popularity of diet books about it; in 2013 the diet was Google's most searched-for weight-loss method. The diet is one of many fad diets that have been promoted in recent times, and draws on an appeal to nature and a narrative of conspiracy theories about how nutritional research, which does not support the paleo diet, is controlled by a malign food industry.

References

Dear anonymous: I've put it back in, since no such section has materialized. --Cornellier (talk) 13:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Fad diet label?

I was curious to see the label "fad diet" in the lede and questioned its applicability and definition. I found the most recent discussion about the term in the talk page archives here. It seems a bit too much to define the idea of Paleo diet as a fad. The link to the article fad diet says "A fad diet is a diet for which promises of weight loss are made that are not backed by good science, and which is characterized by unusual food choices." Most reference i've ever seen to paleo diet are not mainly in regard to weight loss but rather sense of well being. Anyway, i wished to bring this up again so it's an active discussion on the talk page. As i read the archived discussion, i didn't read a consensus about the term "fad diet" being the definitional noun in the first sentence of this article. I found many people advocating otherwise, in fact. SageRad (talk) 18:19, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

It's well-sourced in the body (to a piece by H Hall). And it is a diet with "unusual food choices" which seems to fit the bill. Have you got sources that dispute the "fad diet" categorization? Alexbrn (talk) 18:41, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

I have no specific source at hand. I've been curious about this diet, and quite undecided about my own opinion on it. I will be taking a lot more time to read sources, and to gather information for my own use. However, the word "fad" does color the opening sentence heavily with a pejorative tone, and it's also not actually in the source document you cite there, the piece in the New York Times by Hall, which you are saying is the source for the use of the term "fad diet". The term is not used in that article at all. It's quite a wonderful article and i'm glad to have read it. It makes wonderful points about the presence of starches in pre-agricultural human diets, and about the use of fire to cook starches making them more bioavailable, but it doesn't call the paleo diet a fad diet, and doing so might be synthesis if that's the only source. I am sure that there are sources that call the diet a "fad diet" as well as sources that state explicitly that it's not a "fad diet" but as editors we're tasked with writing an article that is as NPOV as possible and that might mean leaving out a pejorative term as the defining noun for the topic of the article and including criticism later in the text. SageRad (talk) 18:52, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

The link you say is to Hall's piece is in fact to one by "Karl Zimmer"?? If there are reliable sources that 'state explicitly that it's not a "fad diet"' then produce them. Why are you "sure" about this before even looking? Sounds like editing with a strong POV! That is best avoided. (BTW, also be aware that in the literature there is an overlap between the question of GMOs and the paleo diet, which this article needs expanding with.) Alexbrn (talk) 18:58, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Please stop the personal attacks here (by which i mean you saying i'm "editing with a strong POV" just because i'm reviving this question and asking it here). This is not a friendly tone for a good dialogue and it's not assuming good faith. Taking a break from this. Not interested in a contentious dialogue like this. I've had enough of that. And for goodness sake, this is not about GMOs. This is a completely different topic. Please sir, i've had enough of this. Can't i please edit peacefully and expect good dialogue anywhere? SageRad (talk) 19:07, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

You said "I am sure". Alexbrn (talk) 19:10, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Figure of speech, how humans talk. SageRad (talk) 19:12, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

But yes, indeed, i meant the piece by Zimmer, not Hall. That's the one that sourced the lede sentence that called paleo diet a fad diet. SageRad (talk) 22:36, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

So what i'm gathering is that the use of "fad diet" is source to Hall here. I think that's a POV source and not enough for an NPOV article to call the diet a "fad diet" in the opening sentence. SageRad (talk) 19:12, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to have a better source, but given the nature of diets I think it's fine.

What does "a POV source" mean? --Ronz (talk) 19:38, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

The Skeptic source is POV in that it has a strong slant upon the topic which is different from general mainstream slant, in that it's within the Skeptic subculture which has a particular bent toward what they call "debunking" things, which often goes far beyond actual skepticism into a particular ideological realm. It's a subculture as documented here and here. It's a subculture that fetishizes debunking and uses a caricature of scientific knowing. It's a subculture that creates media on many things outside itself, and yet is not necessarily an authoritative source on those other things.

There is a source that explicitly says that the concept of paleo diet is not a fad here although it's also a POV source in that it is from a pro-paleo-diet stance. Then there is a source in a more mainstream mode here that asks the question "is it a fad?" and contains lines like Not all medical scientists agree with some of the diet's claims. but does not conclude that it's a fad diet, but rather that it can be helpful: This is, I'm sure, a good thing, eliminating foods that are low in nutrients and high in calories. It's also a diet that involves no weighing or calorie counting – another plus. SageRad (talk) 16:31, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

different from general mainstream slant ← I don't believe so. Produce sources on this diet to back-up that Point of View, please. And best to avoid The Daily Telegraph. Much as I admire [Xanthe Clay's] cookery writing this is not a good RS, and it doesn't even say this diet is not a fad diet. Better to rely on medical writers like Hall, or the NHS. Alexbrn (talk) 16:55, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Skeptic (TM) sources are from a very specific point of view. They are happy to so-called "debunk" a lot of things without the care and integrity needed to actually do a real unbiased secondary source type of assessment. They do not have a balanced or mainstream or anything approaching neutral point of view. That's pretty obvious. You may not believe do, but i do believe so. And yes, the Telegraph article does ask the question and then does conclude that it's not a fad diet. You don't need to see a sentence explicitly saying "It is not a fad diet" in the article to read this in the article. It clearly ends with the answer to the title's question being "not really, there's some benefit and some basis to it". And there was also the source that did explicitly say it's not a fad diet, which is equally as POV as the Skeptic source is POV in the other direction. SageRad (talk) 17:01, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Just wanted to point out that the NHS did refer to it as a "fad diet" back in 2008 here. The debate here seems to be grounded on a particular definition of fad diet, i.e. a Dr. Oz-type "miracle" diet. The term "fad diet" doesn't necessarily mean that the diet has no benefits whatsoever; rather, it means the diet's primary claims are unscientific, unrepresentative, or outright false, and that it has high profile marketing and widespread rapid uptake. So the paleo diet may not quite be a "fad diet" as such, but the diet is a fad. Perhaps a rephrasing in the lede would be appropriate. Amateria1121 (talk) 22:03, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Some points on the term "fad diet" being the definitional noun in the first sentence of this article for the paleo diet concept:

• "Fad" means that it's a passing phenomenon, which would be a prediction, as the concept is still a cultural force going strong.
• "Fad diet" has the ring of a packaged diet, at least to me, a branded thing that is offered by a single source generally, not a cultural phenomenon like the paleo diet appears to be to me.
• The hyperlink fad diet leads to a technical definition A fad diet is a diet for which promises of weight loss are made that are not backed by good science, and which is characterized by unusual food choices. Whether or not this is an accurate and good working definition for the term, it's also very much debatable whether this fits the paleo diet at least in the main stream of what it means to most people who understand it and/or practice it and/or pay attention to it. I sussed this out by reading some forums recently .
• The term is also a loaded pejorative, with the apparent intent of discrediting the subject of the article which seems undue to me on the whole. It would be a good fit for a criticism section and the Hall piece would fit well there, but i don't find it reasonable or justifiable to make this the definitional noun for the article's subject. SageRad (talk) 22:36, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

"Fad diet" 1

On the cultural place of Skeptic magazine as a source and skepticism of this subcultural sort in general (questioned in comments above regarding the reliability or POV nature of the Hall piece in Skeptic), there are indeed many sources that speak of this phenomenon as a subcultural happening. I just found a lot of these writings by googling about it. Daniel Drasin writes on it, this paper speaks about CSICOP and Skeptical Inquirer and "the Skeptics" as a group with a particular POV and agenda and other various sociological observations. And here is a list of various writings about what they call pseudoskepticism. I had come to these same conclusions and even began to use the term "pseudoskepticism" on my own in the last months while observing this social movement or social phenomenon in various media campaigns designed to discredit certain people or concepts, generally in line with an industrial modernity point of view, and to the detriment and insult of people and ideas to which they are hostile. SageRad (talk) 22:36, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm confused; the British Dietetic Association calls it a fad diet, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics lists it under "fad diets", opinion pieces in very high quality journals like JAMA explicitly calls it a fad diet, and all recent MEDRS compliant sources says there is no significant evidence that it actually works. What exactly is the problem with calling it a fad diet, again? Yobol (talk) 23:08, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

It's a term that is often used in a pejorative sense, an implication that SageRad doesn't like. It tends to associate the paleo diet with other, more obviously unscientific diets like the South Beach Diet. Although both are highly unscientific, I would argue that the paleo diet does not seem as...tacky. Or maybe that's just because its proponents do a better job selling it. Personally I would leave the phrase "fad diet" in the lede though, but I understand why an alternative phrase might be considered.

However, drifting into circular debates about POV sources is entirely unproductive. Skepticism, pseudo or otherwise, works both ways - there's always money to be made exploiting people's skepticism, be it of the conventional wisdom or of the alternative interpretations. Amateria1121 (talk) 00:51, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd actually say the Paleo™ diet was less scientific that South Beach - but yes, they're both fad diets as RS tells us. I think per WP:PSCI we need to be up-front with readers about its iffy nature. Alexbrn (talk) 07:01, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

The article's topic is "Paleolithic diet", not Paleo™ diet. Please note that this is not a single-source diet or a diet named after a person or based on a single person's work. It's more of an approach to eating, a concept that lives in the culture and has a community that practices it. There is scientific rationale for reasoning about why it would result in various effects. It's got many flavors and variations. Therefore it's inappropriate to refer to it with a trademark symbol unless you're specifying a particular branded incarnation that's been commercialized. SageRad (talk) 11:17, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd say that discussing POV of sources can be fruitful and is not circular. It is often necessary to discuss the nature of sources including whether they have a strong POV. The question was asked about the Skeptic source and i answered it. My concerns are not about money to be made, but ideological POV pushing and bias in sources. SageRad (talk) 11:17, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I see that as cherrypicking. The JAMA mention is a letter with passing reference to Paleo diet. When i go on PubMed and search for review articles referring to "Paleo diet", the first result returned (i.e. not cherrypicking) is a very recent review article that refers to the Paleolithic diet as a valid and scientifically reasonable approach to eating, and that it shows promise of working but needs further study. When i search on Google Scholar, i find several primary studies that report benefits to the diet. For these reasons, it doesn't seem that the term "fad diet" is an appropriate descriptor for the primary noun in the article's first sentence. SageRad (talk) 11:17, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

It's a fad diet alright, and multiple strong sources back that up (where none say otherwise that we know of). "a very recent review article that refers to the Paleolithic diet as a valid and scientifically reasonable approach to eating" ← link? Alexbrn (talk) 11:21, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

The link is in my comment. Pure assertion is not very strong argumentation. You can't wish something into being true. There are multiple sources that call it a fad diet, but there are multiple sources that say it's not, and that treat it as a valid approach to eating. Therefore, there exists a range of points of view on this question, and calling it a "fad diet" in the first sentence is not NPOV content in the article according to the range of sources available and does not represent the general sense of sources accurately. SageRad (talk) 11:39, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

That would be the article which concludes "The Paleolithic diet might be an acceptable antidote to the unhealthy Western diet, but only unequivocal results from randomized controlled trials or meta-analyses will support this hypothesis" and which doesn't consider the "fad" categorization at all. Alexbrn (talk) 11:49, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, that's the one... the non-consideration of "fad diet" is not a mark against the removal of the "fad diet" pejorative from the first sentence, you know. The review takes the paleolithic diet seriously and asserts that there is good reason to believe that it has the specific benefits for which they were evaluating, and it needs further study. That in itself is evidence that the reviewers do not see it as a "fad diet". You do not need every source to say explicitly that "the paleo diet is not a fad" to endorse that it's not a fad in the sense that you're pushing for the article to say. And the review in question is looking at the paleo diet in terms of a very specific benefit and that is why they say further study is needed to show benefit unequivocally. I feel this dialogue here being difficult and not unbiased. I feel a pushing. i would like to assume good faith but I don't feel an unbiased look at the range of literature being done by most participants here. I don't feel a genuine consideration of the question happening. I feel we'll end up going in circles with frayed ends unresolved based on what's happened already. SageRad (talk) 12:29, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

We get this kind of POV-push all the time, of the form "since {$fringe-topic} is taken seriously, it has some validity". See, e.g. the archives of the Homeopathy page: homeopathy is seriously studied a lot: it does not stop it being fringe nonsense. It is pure original research to say that because the reviewers do not mention "fad diets" you can intuit their view on this. One might as well say that it's so obvious it doesn't need mentioning. In any case if we follow good sources and WP:STICKTOSOURCE it's all quite clear. I suggest we are done here. Alexbrn (talk) 12:43, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

This is not homeopathy, so that's irrelevant. You calling something "fringe" does not "fringe" make it. The word of someone just because they call themselves a "skeptic" does not become gospel. It's no substitute for the words of actual experts. I cited the most recent review article that i could find mentioning the article's topic, from PubMed, here, above, in case you missed it. I do support sticking to sources, and the result of doing so calls into question the first sentence of this article. There are some sources that call it a "fad diet" but there are a great many other sources that do not, and therefore it seems the label as the primary label for this concept is not accurate in an NPOV sense. SageRad (talk) 17:30, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I suggest we're not done here as long as there is a serious issue that violates NPOV in the article. I suggest you don't dismiss my concerns in the way you're doing or attempt to characterize them as POV pushing. I'm working against the POV i see pushed already into the article and doing so with good and reasonable dialogue. You can choose to participate in good dialogue or not, but if you do not them you don't get to determine what's in the article. SageRad (talk) 15:03, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't think you make sense. The consensus here is clear. To widen it, I suggest adding to the already-open noticeboard thread at WP:FT/N#Paleolithic diet. Alexbrn (talk) 15:41, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of NPOV and FRINGE in all this, especially starting with [1], and any edits made based upon these misunderstandings would rather blatantly violate WP:ARBPS. --Ronz (talk) 16:31, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't think i have a "fundamental misunderstanding" of these things in the least. I think i see things differently from you which does not inherently mean i'm wrong. Your declaring that you think i have a fundamental misunderstanding of basic policies when i actually do understand them is sort of insulting and condescending and makes dialogue on this kind of difficult. Why not talk about the actual issue, the question of whether "fad diet" is warranted as the primary noun in the first sentence of this article when there is a diverse range of opinions on this question in the reliable sources on the subject of this article? I think that's sort of what NPOV asks us to do as editors. I don't see real engagement on the issue at hand here, very much. I see a few sources that call it a fad diet, but they look cherrypicked, and i see some blowback on my calling Skeptic magazine a point of view source and not neutral enough to justify basing the entire orientation of this article on it and a couple of cherrypicked sources. Some people think it's a fad diet but a great many other people do not, and you can't declare that out of reality. SageRad (talk) 17:25, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

You cannot declare consensus when there are valid and well-explained issues on the table and i have explained myself well enough. You'd need to actually hear and address my concerns in order to work on establishing consensus. SageRad (talk) 17:25, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Your concerns have been noted and given the consideration they deserve. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:34, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Not really. SageRad (talk) 08:44, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, really. -Roxy the dog™ woof 09:33, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I submit that an impartial observer who reads this dialog would find it sorely lacking integrity. This article is badly biased and it's doing a disservice to the reader. The other editors here seem to be bent on an agenda to retain the phrase "fad diet" as the key noun in the first sentence despite it not reflecting a fair survey of reliable sources, in other words to violate the policies of Wikipedia to maintain an ideological position in regard to the subject of the article. I google "Paleolithic diet" and i find the first result after this article itself is the Mayo Clinic page here.... it does not call the diet a "fad diet" and it says there is moderate evidence that it has benefits. And many other sources are similar, respectable sources. And yet this article is in a lockdown by a group of editors who have made an ideological call to arms and pushed a specific point of view into it, against the general lay of the reliable sources. It's not right, and it does not serve the encyclopedia. And when i do edit here, people post chilling, gaslighting and bullying messagesh on my talk page designed to intimidate me away from editing this article and anything else they deem "fringe" (a label used in a McCarthyism way in this context). It's an agenda pushing that is not healthy for editors or the encyclopedia. It is not good for the world because readers learn about the world through Wikipedia and they are getting a slanted reflection of reality imposed by a small group of editors with a particular POV to push. SageRad (talk) 09:46, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

…a slanted reflection of reality imposed by a small group of editors with a particular POV to push. SageRad, did it ever occur to you that others might consider that a pretty accurate description of yourself? How about, for this article, we just focus on the content? Maybe there's a sinister agenda, maybe not, but if there are any problems, then there are well-worn paths to resolution. Taking yourself to article after article and complaining that a different crew of editors at each one are pushing some dubious line just looks like paranoia at work. Discuss any problems first, insist on reliable sources, seek more eyes via an RfC, and take conduct issues to ANI. Work with the system; it's designed to help us all. --Pete (talk) 11:36, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

People have made it impossible to focus on the content because there is an absence of genuine good faith dialogue here. There is obstructionism. I've discussed problems and insisted on reliable sources. That's been obstructed in many subtle ways in the dialogue above. SageRad (talk) 15:52, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Posting about non-content issues here solves nothing. To repeat: if anybody has other issues, they should take them elsewhere. Alexbrn (talk) 15:58, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Well then, i should perhaps declare that i've presented a good case that "fad diet" is not justified as the primary noun of the first sentence and therefore ought to be changed to something like "an approach to eating". People have not engaged the dialogue with me in good faith to show me why i am wrong with reasonably good dialogue, so i think this edit is justified. Consensus is determined by good dialogue where people hear each other and address each others' concerns. To the extent that this has been done here, it seems that the article content is currently skewed toward one point of view very strongly, from the opening sentence. SageRad (talk) 16:18, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Your case is weak and has failed. To recap: you said you were "sure" there was RS saying this diet was not a fad diet. No such source has been produced. Your fallback argument is that some sources don't explicitly say it's a fad diet. This is unconvincing, as not all sources consider this categorization. But we do have multiple, strong sources which do consider it, and they say it's a fad diet. So we do too, for neutrality. It is now probably time for this particular WP:STICK to be dropped. Alexbrn (talk) 16:26, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

No such source has been produced. Yes it was. You must have missed it. This is unconvincing ... it's quite convincing to me though not as you phrase it in a strawman way to make it appear to be a ridiculous argument. This is not a dead horse. This is a situation where a horse is alive and yet several people are saying it's dead but those people have a strong interest in saying it's dead because their interest depends on people believing it's dead. That's not a drop the stick situation. It's a situation where there's a group with a mode of twisting dialogue and not being here in good faith for the article without bias. SageRad (talk) 16:30, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

What you have just described Sage is a consensus, with one outlier. Can you guess who it is? -Roxy the dog™ woof 17:48, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I think what i've stated is that the dialogue is not a healthy and collegiate one, but rather an obstructionist one. That cannot result in a consensus. It can result in an apparent consensus on a cursory shallow reading which is actually a forcing in a semi-covert way. SageRad (talk) 17:52, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

And to re-repeat, to widen the consensus there is an already-open thread at WP:FT/N - a page with over 200 active watchers. The repeated implication that other editors are somehow at fault is becoming disruptive. Alexbrn (talk) 17:57, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

So there's a discussion with three or four hostile comments on the Fringe Theory noticeboard? I don't see how that is relevant. If anything it shows a hostile canvassing that has resulted in the present state of this article. I have valid concerns that i have explained very clearly in this talk page section, which i do not think have been heard and responded to adequately and in good faith by other editors. SageRad (talk) 18:04, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Well in that case, with such alleged wrongdoing, your recourse would be WP:AIN. Please don't continue off-topic discussion here. Alexbrn (talk) 18:10, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

"Fad diet" 2

So, to return to the actual discussion on content, as i have written above, the words "fad diet" are seen by readers and have an effect in how some people learn about this subject. As i've outlined above, the term contains many implications, in the word "fad" and the phrase "fad diet" and in the definition linked at fad diet if a reader follows the link. While there are some sources that call this approach to eating a "fad diet" there are also many sources that call Obama a "horrible president" and yet the article on Obama would surely not begin with "Obama is a horrible president of the United States of America." While "fad diet" may be a "term of the art" (i would like to investigate this further myself) and different from the word "horrible" in some ways, it also carries this negative judgement in the first sentence of this article which i do not think is justified by an honest and wide survey of the reliable sources on this topic. The lede should define the subject in an NPOV way and leave various points of view, including criticism, to be developed further and clearly demarcated as criticism by some, which is what it is. We want to reflect reality here, as best we can by reflecting reliable sources on this topic. I see this not being done properly here. That's my issue. These points have not been really addressed here. Maybe there's something i'm missing and i'm open to hearing valid points presented in a collegiate way. There's a lot to discuss here if we can actually focus on the content with good faith and good dialogue. So far not so good. SageRad (talk) 18:36, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Thread at WP:FT/N#Paleolithic diet

Notice that there is a call here on the "Fringe theories" noticeboard for people who follow that sort of thing to come and edit this article. This may explain some of the recent editing that may have happened here, just for the enlightenment of anyone who came here out of interest in the subject itself, and not from that noticeboard. I suggest that those from that noticeboard could serve the other editors of various articles well by making a notice when they make a call to come and edit articles, a sort of "pingback" service. SageRad (talk) 17:34, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Noticeboards on Wikipedia are pages where editors can ask questions and request assistance from people who are familiar with the policies and guidelines covered by each individual board. It is good practice to widen consensus by posting queries to them. Note that WP:SKEPTICISM is one of the Projects covering this article. Alexbrn (talk) 18:23, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I suppose whether it's a violation of WP:CANVASS would have to do with the intent and the form of the notification. Notifications must be polite, neutrally worded with a neutral title, clear in presentation, and brief... at the linked call to edit this article, we see such gems as:

God, is every crank diet the soruce of terrible articles?

and

Pretty much, yes. Diet woo is one of the most profitable forms of bullshit: one hollywood endorsement can sell a metric fucktonne of books.

It would seem to me prejudicial. SageRad (talk) 08:51, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

This page is for discussion of article improvements. If you have other issues, take them elsewhere. Alexbrn (talk) 09:05, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

This is so that other editors would know the source and flavor of incoming editors from that notification in order to be better able to edit this article and to improve it. It can sometimes come as a surprise to see a sudden influx of new editors on an article you've been working on for a while, who seem to have a certain kind of goal for the article. SageRad (talk) 09:19, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Please WP:AGF and WP:FOC. Continued use of this page to air general complaints is disruptive. Alexbrn (talk) 09:23, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I assume good faith until it is no longer possible to do so. I focus on content when it is possible, and if something is standing in the way of focusing on content, then i will work on solving that in order to return to focusing on content. SageRad (talk) 09:48, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Posting about non-content issues here solves nothing. To repeat: if you have other issues, take them elsewhere. Alexbrn (talk) 10:34, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Probably worth pointing out that the "call" that Sage refers to in the OP said ...

I did some clean-up on the lede of this page, but as it is has been tagged for more than a year it is clear that more work could be done.

Hardly a problem, and quite neutral. -Roxy the dog™ woof 18:22, 27 December 2015 (UTC)