Talk:Ürümqi

History section

This article could use a section on the history of the site and the city, someone could do this by translating the Chinese article. Abstrakt 07:14, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Inaccuracy re: Han racism

The "History of Naming" section of this article includes the following: "During the Qing Dynasty (A.D.1763) emperor Qian Long named the expanded town of Luntai "Dihua" （pinyin: dihua）, meaning "to enlighten", which shows racism of Han Chinese against Uyghurs, implying that the Uyghurs were uncivilized."

The first point to make would be that Qian Long, being of the Manchu Qing dynasty, was Manchurian and not Han so I believe the claim that his actions suggests Han racism cannot be substantiated. Second, I think it cannot be claimed that it was Manchu rather than Han racism towards the Uighurs either since Qian Long's described actions were patronising and paternalistic but it seems a huge leap to claim this proof of racism. Third, again hugh leap to then claiming proof that he, Han, or Manchus believed Uighurs to be uncivilised.

Sorry for the length of this post - it's my first time getting involved in Wikipedia so I thought it would be more polite to make this point here rather than just edit it myself.

--Burningfeetman 06:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Fortunately, I'm not polite enough to ask before deleting this sentance. I think that one of wikipedia's conventions is to be bold; if you see something wrong or NPOV and you can back up your changes with a good rational or facts (which you have done), by all means go and change it. --soon to be registered user who'll learn how to properly sign his comments

While Qian Long has been a Manchu, Manchu culture has been assimilated by Han-Culture in large parts, especially the leaders identified themself with confucianism as well as Han-traditions. Therefor I would say the orginal entry is somewhat valid, it was certainly meant to lower the status of the outer colonies of the empire to point out that China is the center of culture and development. 60.28.129.81 (talk) 09:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Inaccuracy re: Chinese Confucianism Central Culture - Answer

I don't think it could be called Han racism either. Qianlong is a symbol of Chinese Confucianism. It's not about Han, as Manchu was pretty much assimlated and converted into Chinese Confucianism culture after the rule of China. The Emperor stood for Confucianism idea, not a single ethnics, China has a unique situation that westerns can not judge just simply by race. It is more of being a Culture identity than religion or racism. edited by Xu, on 2007.11.29, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.189.21.65 (talk) 06:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Reads like a travel brochure

"Located in a green oasis between the lofty ice-capped Bogda Peak, the vast Salt Lake in the east, the rolling pine-covered Southern hill and the alternating fields and sand dunes of Zunggar Basin in the northwest, Ürümqi has an average elevation of 800 meters." And the rents are reasonable ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.0.208.141 (talk) 15:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Good point. __meco (talk) 09:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the entire entry could have been written by the local Chamber of Commerce or the Central Committee propaganda authority. The validity needs to be seriously challenged. Zero effort at balance; all is perfect in Urumqi? The comments immediately below, citing links to the ethnic violence, are a strong hint that this entire entry is as poorly created as the section about ethnic violence in the entry on Uyghur, which is being criticized for "weasel words" and poor attribution. This entry could stand some of the same kind of examination and critique.Wlegro (talk) 14:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Protester deaths in Urumqi

Search: "Urumqi" (Google News):

• "Death and debris on Urumqi's streets, but in Beijing the blame game begins", The Guardian, 2009-07-06.
• "China Says Hundreds Detained as Violence Kills 156", Bloomberg, 2007-07-07.
• "Urumqi Tense, Quiet after Violence", Radio Free Asia, 2009-07-05.

There is now a short section detailing the violence, and a link to the main article July 2009 Ürümqi riots. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Needs more history

How long have Han Chinese been the majority? What have been political effects for natives? Etc.--Parkwells (talk) 22:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Do not know, but I can tell you that in 1940 the han already have been the majority in urumqi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.208.80.76 (talk) 14:00, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Undue weight

Serious undue weight being given to the riots right now. They haven't even unfolded completely yet, and it takes over half of the city's history? Colipon+(T) 01:17, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

As a Urumqi-born Wikipedian, I feel very disappointed when such riots happened and I regret that "July 2009 Ürümqi riots" occupied half of the history section. I believe that media from around the world will lay out neutral point of view on the incident. Ccyber5 (talk) 12:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

"I believe that media from around the world will lay out neutral point of view on the incident." You are very optimistic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.40.145.137 (talk) 17:27, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. There is way too much detail in the history section on this recent event since there is already a whole article dedicated to the recent event. Can this be shortened some more perhaps?Simonm223 (talk) 19:41, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Yep, this needs to be trimmed down to a mini-paragraph and the details kept in the main article. There is no point to repeat here all the fights we've already been through at the main article. Let's all try to keep an eye on this snippet just in case problem editors come here to continue POV-pushing after their junk doesn't survive at the main article. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 19:50, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I just trimmed it and added notes discouraging people from editing it, and directing them to the main article instead. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 19:58, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

The last revision I edited had a fairly long History section. Since then, many edits have removed most of the text of the History section. Are all these deletions justified? As to text about the riots, a single paragraph summarizing the major events is all that is necessary, since the bulk of the information is covered in an entirely separate article (July 2009 Ürümqi riots). — Loadmaster (talk) 22:03, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Riot section needs a summary, not just a link

Please put a brief summary of the riots in this section. 75.101.11.171 (talk) 00:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Mongolian

It was said that Urumqi is a mongolian word, could anyone add the Mongolian script?--刻意(Kèyì) 01:42, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I searched the Mongolian Wikipedia for their Xinjiang article, and found the Mongolian Cryllic to be "Урумчи". Don't know how to romanise that though. --HXL's Roundtable and Record 02:48, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The Mongols in the Mongolian state does not follow the original Mongolian name. Урумчи is simply an Cyrillization of Uyghur Urumqi. The original Mongolian used by Oirats in Urumqi seems to be "Үлэмж", but I'm not sure. ––虞海 (Yú Hǎi) ✍ 09:11, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Beş Balık = Beiting

Beş Balık(Besh-balik) = Beiting(Pei-T'ing), was an important city near Ürümqi (east of Ürümqi). Böri (talk) 07:12, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Biş Balık in Old Turkic. Böri (talk) 12:55, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

History of urumqi

Urumchi in xinjiang originated as a chinese style city with mostly han and hui residents

http://books.google.com/books?id=MC6sAAAAIAAJ&q=Relatively+recent+feature#v=snippet&q=Relatively%20recent%20feature&f=false

Name of hui mosques in urumchi indicate their region or province of origin

http://books.google.com/books?id=MC6sAAAAIAAJ&q=Tungan+mosques+origins#v=snippet&q=Tungan%20mosques%20resided%20%20pattern%20origins&f=false

Purblio (talk) 06:27, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

References

History of urumqi

Urumchi in xinjiang originated as a chinese style city with mostly han and hui residents

http://books.google.com/books?id=MC6sAAAAIAAJ&q=Relatively+recent+feature#v=snippet&q=Relatively%20recent%20feature&f=false

Name of hui mosques in urumchi indicate their region or province of origin

http://books.google.com/books?id=MC6sAAAAIAAJ&q=Tungan+mosques+origins#v=snippet&q=Tungan%20mosques%20resided%20%20pattern%20origins&f=false

Purblio (talk) 06:29, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

How do you pronounce?

Can anyone add an audio recording of the pronunciation? Mattximus (talk) 00:17, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Spelling of article title, why not Urumqi

How did we end up with the article title spelled with these diareses over the U's? I have never seen this spelling outside of this article and feel that it would be more appropriate to have the article at "Urumqi" since that is the common English-language name for the city. Where did this peculiar spelling come from? In English, we rarely use such diacritics. Occasionaly German words with preserve the umlaut (same mark), and sometimes vowel pairs are marked like this to indicate a syllable break where a single vowel sound might otherwise be assumed (although this is still very rare and the spellings without the marks is also acceptable), like "naïve". For Urumqi, the pronunciation doesn't differ with the marks and nor do they serve any apparent disambiguation purpose. I am guessing this is from the Uyghur latin alphabet. Here we use the English spelling. see WP:PLACE. I propose we move it back to "Urumqi". - Metal lunchbox ^(talk) 14:07, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

In the absence of conclusive evidence, I would not mind either variant, but come to think of it, a RM here would not be any more productive than a RM over which national variety of English to use. GotR ^Talk 17:18, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

which variant of English to use is a settled question for all but some unique edge cases. The concensus boils down to don't change it unless it is clearly relevant to the article content and be consistent within an article. All else being equal I think it is clear that "Urumqi" without the marks is easier and less confusing, serving the interests of both the readers and editors. I'm not willing to die on this hill. The move is a suggestion, not a demand. Anyone curious about the English name of the city should search Google books for "Urumqi" and "Ürümqi". There are about 20 times as many occurances of the name without the marks and a good portion of the results which include the marks are actually from wikipedia. Of course searching google without diacritics will always show more results than with the diacritics. Actually looking at the results shows a pretty clear difference. Google Scholar shows an even more dramatic difference. "Ürümqi" is used in some legit English-language sources such as Encyclopedia Britannica and Library of Congress subject headings. Just thought I'd provide some actual info instead of simply declaring that "Urumqi" is the real English name. - Metal lunchbox ^(talk) 13:09, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ürümqi/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

This article primarily needs expansion to reach higher classes. As the capital city of a region in China, it is of high importance. --Danaman5 01:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 01:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 11:23, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Demographics

I'm going to ask Lemongirl942 here exactly what is POV about the demographics of Urumqi at its foundation. I will restore it if no adequate response is given since this is totally unrelated to the other edits you complained about.Rajmaan (talk) 00:31, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

I assume you mean this edit where you wrote Professor of Chinese and Central Asian History at Georgetown University, James A. Millward wrote that foreigners often mistakenly think that Urumqi was originally a Uyghur city and that the Chinese destroyed its Uyghur character and culture, however, Urumqi was founded as a Chinese city by Han and Hui (Tungans), and it is the Uyghurs who are new to the city. I'm curious why we need to mention this POV. I don't see anywhere in the article it being mentioned that "Urumqi was originally a Uyghur city" and that "Chinese destroyed its Uyghur character and culture". So I don't see why we need to refute something which doesn't exist. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 01:47, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Professor Millward is referring to a common misconception. He has qualifications in the area and knows what is common knowledge, and what is not. He has encountered a particular misconception and deemed it notable to be written about in his book which is an RS by virtue of both the credentials of the author and the publisher. It meets WP:NOTABILITY, the fact that this misconception itself exists and it was mentioned by Millward makes it notable enough to be included. Urumqi is the capital of "Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region". That alone is enough for assumption of Urumqi as a Uyghur city. The article also mentions ethnic unrest.Rajmaan (talk) 10:06, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't see any misconception in the article. This is like refuting something which doesn't exist. I'm not sure what relevance does WP:NOTABILITY have here - that's to decide whether we keep an article or not. You have to consider that we add viewpoints by their prominence in related literature. We don't add random facts to an article: there has to be cohesion and flow. As far as I can see, I don't see any literature which promotes the "misconception" - so this refuting of the misconception is plain unnecessary. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 10:42, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

There is also the fact that the majority demographics are stated in the source- not just the misconception. The founding demographics are notable, reliably sourced content regardless of who thinks who the majority of the city is or was.Rajmaan (talk) 19:54, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Is this discussion finished? Is there a valid objection to including the demographics?

It is a legitimate notable topic because tourist guides propagate this misconception "This former Uighur market (Èrdàoqiáo shìchǎng) is no better than a Chinese-run tourist trap these days, but the streets to the north are still the center of Ürümqi's Uighur community. -Er Dao Qiao Bazaar: This former Uighur market is no better than a chinese run tourist trap these days, but the streets to the north are still the centre of Urumqi's Uighur community.

The above is the POV which Professor Millward addressed in his book. It can be added to the article with Millward's source used after to illustrate the opposite POV for balance.Rajmaan (talk) 09:27, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? None of that states "Urumqi was originally a Uyghur city" and that "Chinese destroyed its Uyghur character and culture". --Lemongirl942 (talk) 10:13, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Millward is a source for both points- he talks about both the misconception and the facts about the demographics. Both points of view come from his book and there is no rule saying that a single book isn't allowed to source both a misconception and its refutation.Rajmaan (talk) 02:51, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

And that precisely is the problem. The relevant policy is WP:UNDUE. We give prominence to views in the proportion to which they have appeared in reliable sources. Millward's view over here doesn't seem to be shared by others: I can't find other sources either propagating the "misconception" or even trying to refute it. If it is a fringe view, we simply exclude it. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 03:15, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Millward is a Professor of Central Asian History and his book was published by a reputable university. Calling his views fringe is YOUDONTLIKEIT. His book is peer reviewed by scholars and he can't include random junk and speculation for no reason. Examples of the misconception abound, this author claims Han are destroying Uyghur culture in Urumqi and that Uyghur architecture there is "ancient" another one about Erdaoqiao Bazaar being flooded by Han people Another claiming that cities are being swamped by Han.

And a blatant example over here : Urumqi, an ancient Uyghur city in Xinjiang is being transformed by waves of Han Chinese colonization. Traditional neighborhoods are being levels to make way for high-rise apartment buildings, mainly inhabited by ... This is exactly what Millward was addressing.Rajmaan (talk) 03:46, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

You have absolutely no understanding of WP:UNDUE. You keep adding of a bunch of coatrack to articles. The examples you gave above do not mention anything about "Han Chinese" destroying "Urumqi", much less a blatant example. UNDUE is based on the proportion of sources. The sources are talking about development by the Chinese government. That is different from "Han Chinese destroying Uyghur culture". You also fail to realise that we go by the proportion of sources. We do not give undue weight to sources having a minority or fringe opinion. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 04:05, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

You are refusing to answer one of the main points I brought up. Millward talks about demographics in addition to people's misconceptions. He plainly stated that Urumchi's first inhabitants were Han and Hui people and not Uyghurs, which is a fact and not anyone's point of view. The last source I posted is exactly what he is refuting.

Urumqi, an ancient Uyghur city in Xinjiang is being transformed by waves of Han Chinese colonization. Traditional neighborhoods are being levels to make way for high-rise apartment buildings, mainly inhabited by Chinese immigrants. This source accuses the policy of leveling "traditional neighborhoods" as being part of "Han Chinese colonization", and claims Urumqi is an "ancient Uyghur city".

Millward's source is about foreigners mistakenly thinking Han immigrants and architecture erased the alleged Uyghur characer of the city: Foreign tourists in Urumqchi today sometimes complain that the city is "too Chinese" in comparison with the Central Asian atmosphere of southern Xinjiang; many believe Urumchi's East Turkestani culture has been erased by Han immigration and architecture. In fact, the Uyghur population and culture in the city today is a relatively recent feature, for Urumchi in its first decades in most respects rsembled a north Chinese town, populated primarily by Tungan from Gansu and Shaanxi and Han from many Chinese provinces, in addition to the bannermen. This is an exact rebuttal to the above.

You haven't clearly read UNDUE. Its talking about how to give balance conflicting viewpoints by using proportion to determinte which one outranks the other, in case one viewpoint clashes with each other. If one viewpoint appeared in one RS journal, and another conflicting viewpoint appeared in seven RS journals, the first viewpoint is considered fringe, so one sentence would be devoted to the first viewpoint while an entire paragraph would be devoted to the second view point on a Wikipedia article. It is not saying that you need 100 plus sources on a certain point of view in order to include it in the article which is what you seem to be insinuating. Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources..........In articles specifically relating to a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space. However, these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint Rajmaan (talk) 05:19, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

I see that you have sourced a major part of the history to one particular author. If you are very keen on including Milliward, then the phrasing needs to be appropriate considering that his view is a fringe view. For example, "Urumqi was originally a Uyghur city and the Chinese destroyed its Uyghur character and culture. However, Professor of Chinese and Central Asian History at Georgetown University, James A. Millward, think otherwise." --Lemongirl942 (talk) 23:57, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

It seems you have no idea what the definition of fringe is or what UNDUE is about. Millward's views are not fringe among scholars. Millward's work is peer reviewed. I suggest you look up what peer reviewed means. The claim that Urumqi was a Uyghur city comes from agenda based advocacy groups, tourists, tourist guidebooks and individuals with no credentials in history. Millward explicitly named tourists as propagators of this view. Fringe views are when scholars views conflict with each other and the majority of scholars condemn a certain view and ostracize and relegate that view to the domain of non peer reviewed publications such as Flat Earth, 9/11 conspiracy theories, Holocaust denial, Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact theories, Gavin Menzies and Ancient Aliens. Millwards work has been peer reviewed and his statement on Urumqi has not been challenged by fellow scholars and historians. No reputable scholar has written otherwise, no other historian has claimed Urumqi is a Uyghur city and Han migrants destroyed its Uyghur character. Millward's views are the mainstream as they are published in a peer reviewed book from a university press and he has degrees and credentials in history.Rajmaan (talk) 00:42, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE applies proportionally to conflicting views when it comes to scholarly RS sources. Since Millward wrote this and there is no other scholar or historian who holds a view opposing to him, Millard's view makes up 100% of academia's position on this topic. His view is the dominant majority since he is a well known historian in this field, is work was peer reviewed by fellow scholars and nobody challenged or contradicted what he said about Urumqi.

We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field. For example, fringe theories in science depart significantly from mainstream science and have little or no scientific support.

Citing WP:FRINGE in discussions and edit summaries is often done by POV pushers in an attempt to demonize viewpoints which contradict their own. Opponents to reliable sources will often argue that their opponents reliable sources are FRINGE because they spread false information or have a viewpoint which is not mainstream. This sounds exactly like what is occurring here. Accusing Millward of being fringe because of WP:IDONTLIKEIT.

Millward's views are published in an RS and makes up the prevailing views. And you are again refusing to address the point that the demographics of early Urumqi are a fact and separate from people's misconceptions on the topic.Rajmaan (talk) 03:56, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

See WP:WIKILAWYERING --Lemongirl942 (talk) 04:36, 27 August 2016 (UTC)