Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers

It has been 2830 days since the outbreak
of the latest dispute over date formats.

Abbreviation for trillion

MOS:NUMERAL gives recommended abbreviations for million (M) and billion (bn) but not trillion. Should that not be recorded as "tn"? Best wishes. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 09:43, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Where has this come up? EEng 15:08, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Is an abbreviation ever needed? Why can't it be spelt out in full? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 16:42, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

I feel I must reiterate: these discussions are rarely productive unless there are examples of (multiple) actual articles where there's been actual discussion of an actual problem. In this case, as DV2 highlights, there's no evidence so far that there's any need for an abbreviation at all. Show us the articles. EEng 19:19, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

As noted, in many cases the SI prefixes can be used, but there are cases where they are not appropriate. Human population being one case, fortunately we don't have to worry about that one. Money is another one. MOS:NUMERAL suggests spelling it out the first time, but abbreviating the second. It does seem to me, though, that in the actual (hopefully rare) cases where numbers are that big, that spelling it twice isn't so bad. It isn't like newspaper headlines, where space is limited. Gah4 (talk) 19:29, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

What's wrong with × 10¹²? — A. di M.  13:14, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Here is the case in point:

while energy bonds make up 15.7% of the $1.3tn junk bond market

found here. I changed the sum to

$1.3 trillion

on the next commit. I hope that satisfies EEng. Is there a consensus on my suggestion? Does the main page need to be modified? Best wishes. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 21:57, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Well, from my point of view, the example you've given shows that, in the one case we have, trillion was fine and no abbreviation was necessary. I'd really like to see discussion at multiple articles suggesting something's needed here in MOS before we add anything about a preferred abbreviation. EEng 22:26, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Without looking it up I would not have known the value of a trillion, so I added a link (I assume short scale is intended). I also see no need for a change to mosnum. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 23:37, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

FTR, yes it's short-scale -- see 4th bullet at WP:NUMERAL. EEng 03:09, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

• I've recently had this problem in editing an external text. I opted for spelling it out (it appeared just once in the text). I think if it's repeated much, and especially if "bn" occurs in the vicinity, you might get a way with the abbreviation. Unfortunately, some readers might at first think it's an abbreviation for "ton(ne)". Tony (talk) 04:19, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

As in, "They spent a ton of pounds on remodeling!" EEng 08:36, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Remove unneeded conversion and reference to a non-standard mass unit

Regarding the two changes https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Allosaurus&oldid=750736819 and https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Allosaurus&oldid=750737130 , please explain your justification to support non-standard measure units/regionalism in the English Wikipedia which is not US Wikipedia.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.235.229.22 (talk • contribs)

The short ton is widely used in the US, where a significant portion of Wikipedia readers reside. Unit conversions improve comprehension for these readers who may not be familiar with SI units, a practice which is generally recommended by the Wikipedia Manual of Style where English-speaking countries use different units for the same quantity. Though conversions are not required for science-related articles, their presence may still aid readers and I see no reason to remove such conversions for Allosaurus, which has geographic ties to the US. —Laoris (talk) 14:25, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

I have to disagree with your statement regarding Wikipedia usage statistics as a reason to keep short ton conversion in use. From page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_ton the only countries where this unit of measure is used is US and Canada. From https://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportPageViewsPerLanguageBreakdown.htm readers originating from US+Canada for English Wikipedia is only 46.2% which is not the majority. Following this precedent, the same portion of the readers should be represented with all the specific regionalism in use to ease reading for them as well. Do US/Canada users/editors have some specific rights over English Wikipedia? If not, this discussion shall be brought to a more wide board. I agree, instead, on the geographic ties of Allosaurus to US. --109.235.229.22 (talk) 14:57, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

46.2% isn't a majority, but it's definitely a large portion of readers. By using both SI and US units, the vast majority of the audience can be accommodated, rather than just 53%. Clearly we cannot always support all units used by all regions, but the US and Canada represent a significant portion of Wikipedia views. —Laoris (talk) 15:11, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above, originating from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Laoris#Remove_unneeded_conversion_and_reference_to_a_non-standard_mass_unit , is reported here to request an official statement. Is the use of US/Canada regionalism in international English Wikipedia with precedence over all other regionalism accepted and recognized as intended Wikipedia editorial policy? --109.235.229.22 (talk) 15:20, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

• Laoris' explanation is more than adequate. The OP has a case of WP:IDHT. EEng 15:35, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Emitting accusation of WP:IDHT while the argument is backed by actual data is degrading, disrespectful and definitely insolent. argumentum ad hominem is a prejudiced way to close this dispute, but I lean over the leviathan authority. Rejoice in your bias, since, evidently you can. --109.235.229.22 (talk) 16:00, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Your argument invokes data but ignores logic -- logic which is the basis for the longstanding, sensible practice you object to. Your refusal to see that is indeed WP:IDHT. EEng 16:16, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Please, keep up the good work. http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~halfak/publications/The_Rise_and_Decline/ . --109.235.229.22 (talk) 16:23, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

No problem. Editors whose first and only contributions are to grind some parochial axe (i.e. not the "desirable newcomers" discussed in the paper you link) almost never become productive members of the community, so I won't be losing any sleep. EEng 18:06, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

(A month later) Still obsessed, I see [1]. EEng 21:42, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Template:Floruit

I just want draw people's attention to Template:Floruit. Through a series of IP edits (possibly the same person from multiple IPs), the template has gone from a very simple shortcut for adding fl. to dates to something extremely complicated to look at. It's in need of a look at from an expert on templates. I've never seen this kind of thing from an IP before. McLerristarr | Mclay1 13:38, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

DANGER! If someone tries to combine it with Template:Sfn, the resulting superdense singularity will suck Wikipedia and the observable universe into it. EEng 22:43, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Usage of "noon" and "midnight" in tables with other times

It's not clear in MOS:TIME what cases "usually" refers to in "Usually, use noon and midnight rather than 12 pm and 12 am;". What is everyone's thoughts on if this applies to tables that have other dates in them, such as in this table here: 2016 Western Michigan Broncos football team#Schedule. In my opinion, "noon" is acceptable to use here because the intent to clarify "noon" outweighs the desire for all rows to be consistent, but I'm curious what the MOS experts think. — X96lee15 (talk) 14:09, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Both acceptable and advisable. Noon is neither ante- nor post- meridiem by definition. See 12-hour_clock#Confusion_at_noon_and_midnight for a wider perspective. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:19, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

In my opinion, both "12 am" and "12 pm" are to be avoided. I find them confusing and never know whether noon or midnight is intended. If using the 12 hour clock, specify "noon" or "midnight" explicitly. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 14:25, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

This is a fundamental problem with the 12-hour clock - 12:00 is ambiguous, it is neither AM nor PM. There are various ways around it, sometimes people just never use 12:00 and jump directly from 11:59 to 12:01. Others use 12:00 noon or 12:00 midnight rather than AM or PM. But 12:00 AM or 12:00 PM should never be used. The 24-hour clock of course avoids this problem, 12:00 is 12:00 noon, and midnight is either 24:00 or 0:00 depending on which day you want to assign it to.RockyMtnGuy (talk) 19:57, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

The only legitimate exception I can think of would be if one were explaining the convention followed in some arena outside Wikipedia (such as a programming language), and that external arena used 12:00 AM and PM rather than noon and midnight.

By the way, 12:00 noon and 12:00 midnight are redundant, no need for the "12:00". Jc3s5h (talk) 20:45, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

• Well, yeah, 12:00 is ambiguous, but 12:00AM is not ambiguous, and neither is 12:00PM. But it's something people do get confused about, so noon or midnight seems to me always better where possible. The only problem situation I can think of is a sortable table, but I suspect there's some technical trick to get around that too. EEng 21:46, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

  There -- you can look up "data sort value Mediawiki". --Izno (talk) 00:15, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Unit symbols for pound force and avordupois pound

The international standard unit symbols for the pound force and avoirdupois pound are lbf and lb, respectively. I have encountered many articles that use non-standard symbols such as lbm, lb_m, lb_f and lb_F. My attempts to harmonise (by following the international standard) are met with claims that it is somehow clearer to use these non-standard symbols. I have made a text proposal at mosnum in the spirit of WP:BRD. Please also feel free to comment at Lbm and Slug (mass). Thanks, Dondervogel 2 (talk) 12:02, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

In general I agree with you. 2 lb of potatoes do not require any "m"s adding. There is a marginal case for the template though, it produces "lb_m" not "lbm", which can be useful for disambiguating from "lbf". The others though are simply seeds of confusion. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 12:20, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

It might be desirable to state that disambiguating is only necessary where both units are present and context would not otherwise indicate that we're talking about mass vice force. It's usually the case we're talking about force, so disallowing "lb" in place of "lbf" seems not-great. --Izno (talk) 14:09, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

In everyday experience I often come across the pound used as a unit of mass (symbol lb), and almost never as a unit of force. In scientific use both pound force (lbf) and avoirdupois pound (lb) are used. Further in some scientific articles (and I only learnt this today - I had never seen it before outside WP), it seems that the author aims to distinguish between lb and lbf by adding the suffix 'm' to the symbol 'lb'. Bad practice in my opinion but I accept that it happens. The (purely rhetorical) question becomes, do we want to encourage this practice on WP? I see no justification for ever using 'lb' (the symbol for avoirdupois pound) as a symbol for the unit of force - that is a recipe for confusion. regardless of my opinion though, three questions to esteemed fellow editors:

1. Assuming we adopt 'lbf' for pound force, is there a need to add the suffix 'm' to indicate a unit of mass?
2. If there is such a need, is your preference for 'lbm', 'lb_m' or other (please specify)?
3. If we do not adopt 'lbf' for pound force, what do you propose instead?

Dondervogel 2 (talk) 14:50, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

lbm shows up in engineering textbooks, though I'd have to be home to provide a specific page of my thermodynamics text. Probably at least in the steam tables in the appendices. :) --Izno (talk) 14:58, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

I suggest the phrase "The international standard unit symbols" at the beginning of this section is nonsense. If the people who still use customary British and American units were interested in following international standards, we'd all be using SI. The fact that these older units persist proves that international standards have made limited headway in this realm. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:44, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

The statement is factually correct (it applies specifically to an IEEE standard for customary inch pound units - I guess there might be other standards out there), although I accept your point that users of customary British and American units might prefer not to follow the IEEE international standard. But what do they use instead? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 16:25, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Dondervogel 2 asked "But what do they use instead?". I'm writing from an American perspective, which I think is appropriate since the US uses British/American customary units more extensively than any other country. Those who use customary units are not usually doing so in a scientific or high-tech realm, and so are likely to rely on whatever they learned in elementary or high school. At most, such users might consult whatever dictionary is handy. Purchasing a technical standard is completely out of the question.

The writers who might be held to a high standard for customary unit abbreviations are those working in a highly regulated area, such as food, drug, and product labels. Such writers would follow whatever law or government regulation governs the type of product they are writing about.

Adding to the difficulty is that the agency one might look to for guidance, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), is only interested in promoting SI, so provides minimal guidance about customary units. This attitude doesn't go over very well with other parts of the federal government, nor with the state governments, so NIST is mostly ignored by the rest of the government. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:28, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, there is no US national standard we can follow, so what should we do instead? More specifically, what is the objection to following the IEEE standard? I do understand the point of some articles wanting to drum home the difference between lbf and lb by attaching an 'm' suffix to the latter. While this would not be my preference, if there's enough support for doing so, fair enough. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 18:25, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Dondervogel 2 asked "what is the objection to following the IEEE standard?" My objection is that it costs $94 (only $75 for me, since I'm an IEEE member). My experience with ISO 8601 in Wikipedia is that it is frequently misinterpreted because those attempting to use it can't afford to, or choose not to, buy it, and so are relying on third-hand summaries. So I object to the MOS relying on non-free standards. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:38, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

@Jc3s5h: That falls down right quick in the spirit of WP:PAYWALL. --Izno (talk) 18:40, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

As Izno seems to acknowledge by using the phrase "in the spirit of", WP:PAYWALL is part of WP:Verifiability, and so does not apply to project pages like this, only to article pages. I think an individual article is really a different situation than a widely-consulted project page. Not all encyclopedic information is readily available from free reliable sources, so WP:PAYWALL is necessary for articles. But there are sufficient free sources of style information, so we don't need to ask editors to follow style advice contained in non-free sources. Of course, we could just say it is Wikipedia's decision that the abbreviation for pound-mass is lb and the abbreviation of pound-force is lbf, just so long as we don't descend the slippery slope of asking editors to follow all the other abbreviations in the IEEE standard. Also, since the IEEE standard is generally ignored by users of British and American customary units, that standard shouldn't be given much weight in this discussion. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:56, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

In that case, let me rephrase my question: Are there any objections to MOSNUM adopting (accepting in principle that they might be exceptions in some special situations) the symbol lb as the symbol for a pound of mass and lbf as the symbol for a pound of force? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 19:33, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm afraid I do object, on the grounds that I'd first like to see actual arguments on both sides, emanating from actual discussions on actual articles. Otherwise we're working in a vacuum. EEng 22:00, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

... but this one really is broke [2] [3] Dondervogel 2 (talk) 22:55, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Looks like that discussion is ongoing. AFAICS this guideline doesn't take a position on this anyway, and I'd prefer to keep it that way until there's demonstrated need for something to be added. For all we know different articles are best off using different conventions (civil engineering vs. physics, for example). EEng 23:15, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

[4] [5] [6] [7] Strongly disagree. What we have now is a confusing proliferation of lb, lbf, lb_f, lb_F, lbm and lb_m, with no rhyme and CERTAINLY no reason. The reader has no chance to work out what all the different symbols mean. We can make it much simpler for the reader by choosing a symbol and sticking with that symbol. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 23:39, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, I can certainly believe that lbf, lb_f, and lb_F ought to be harmonized, as well as lbm and lb_m. But as between lb, lbf (whichever form), and lbm (whichever form), I suspect there are different places where each is appropriate, according practices in works in various topic areas. EEng 00:53, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Aha! Now we're making some progress. One step at a time: Which is preferred between lbf, lb_f and lb_F for pound force? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 01:05, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Don't get upset, but I'm going to suggest that you work that out on at least one of the articles. At least there people are familiar with the (or "a") topic area; after that "we" (i.e. you) will need to figure out how to bring in a wider group (Project Physics + Project Engineering + ...) for a broader discussion before adding something here.

BTW, shouldn't a subscript version be on the table? EEng 01:18, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Not upset, but can't be bothered either. It's an obvious problem with an obvious problem solution. No one has yet come up with a serious alternative to the international standard symbol (lbf) for pound-force. That is what we should use. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 01:25, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, if it becomes a problem on multiple articles I'm sure there will be interest in a centralized discussion with an eye toward ending hostilities on the question. Until then I counsel letting sleeping dogs lie. EEng 01:54, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

It's already a problem on multiple articles, for the reasons I explained earlier. Whether or not mosnum gives clear guidance, I consider it important to continue harmonizing these multiple articles to reduce the potential for confusion. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 13:27, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

References

Dondervogel, I agree with you in general, that we should use lb for mass and lbf for force, and should make those changes in articles and templates that do otherwise, and then if someone objects, invite them to discuss it there, or more centrally here. But not just let it lie, since it's clearly a mess. On the other hand, I think that lb can sometimes be used where lbf is what is meant, as long as it's not ambiguous what is intended. Perhaps in constructs such as foot pounds and pounds per square inch, where including the f would seem unconventional? Dicklyon (talk) 05:57, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

I think it would be a very bad idea to make an in vacuo decision here and then go around reforming articles accordingly. More appropriate would be to leave invitations-to-discussion at the obvious Wikiprojects, plus on the talk pages of a sample of their FAs. EEng 07:00, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

@Dicklyon, you seem to be arguing that both lb and lbf are acceptable units of weight. If we go down that path we need a third symbol for an unambiguous unit of mass. For that I would I would propose lbm, as this symbol is sometimes used for precisely this purpose, and it has a clear symmetry with lbf (easier for the reader than lb_m). Does this make sense?

I'm not convinced of the necessity that you see. Can you show a context where just using lb for mass could be confused with a force interpretation? Dicklyon (talk) 18:07, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

I do not see a need for it all, but others wish to use lb as a symbol for pound-force. If they do that there's a clear risk it would be confused with mass. My personal preference was and remains to reserve lb for avoirdupois pound and lbf for pound-force. That's why I made this edit that led to this discussion. What could be simpler than that? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 18:24, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

@EEng, I will post notes on ongoing discussion pages inviting participants to join a centralized discussion here. I do not have time for more. Sorry.

Dondervogel 2 (talk) 08:25, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Break

OK, looking back to where this came up, and particularly at the IP's opinion in Template_talk:GravEngAbs#Eliminate_pound_mass_because_it.27s_not_part_of_a_real_system_of_units, I can see more clearly the issue that Dondervogel is struggling with there. Apparently in aviation they like the system of lb always being a force, and sometimes go so far as to claim that there's no such thing as a pound mass, and so propose one radical approach. Most "modern" systems go the other way and define a pound as only a mass. In typical usage, it might be either, and usually nobody cares which; whether you buy you cheese using a spring scale or a balance, a pound is a pound unless you're extra terrestrial. So the right thing to do is probably dependent on the context, and I admit that in a context where the difference is relevant or under discussion, using both lbf and lbm or some such is a good idea. In most contexts, however, just using lb is probably fine; if the interpretation is important, linking the first use to the appropriate article Pound (mass) or Pound (force) should be enough to remove any problem. Using lbf in general where lb is conventional would be horrible for the general audience. If one or more article or template discussions could be resolved along such lines (or some other consensus), I'd support saying something about it here, too. Invite me to relevant discussions please. Dicklyon (talk) 18:31, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

File:Fig-Newtons-Box-Small.jpg

A half-pound of Newtons

What about the conversion template? How does it know whether to convert to kg or N? Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:18, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

When you use the template you specify the convert-to unit, no? EEng 21:25, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

No, it doesn't work. 1 pound (). The convert template would need additional code. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:41, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

I didn't say it would work. Hawkeye asked how the convert knows whether to convert to kg vs. N, and I said that's specified when you use the template. You're highlighting a different problem. EEng 23:17, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

• @Dicklyon I think the main problems are caused by Template:GravEngAbs, which is used in several relevant articles. If that template were fixed, many of the other problems would go away. In the absence of advice from mosnum, my position is that Wikipedia should follow the IEEE standard, but each editor has his or her own preference. If mosnum came to some consensus I think that consensus would be followed. In the meantime the present confusion is perpetuated. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 22:23, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree that lbm and lbf are the right symbols under the "EE" column. Hopefully we don't need them anywhere else. I made the those edits; let's see if anyone still prefers the funny mixed-case subscript style, and why. Dicklyon (talk) 23:25, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I like what you've done there. I still see a need to bring mosnum into line. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 00:12, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

mosnum is not achieving its goal on matters of weight

The purpose of mosnum is to promote uniformity of style in units and numbers. There are several templates used to harmonise symbols for the pound (mass) and pound (force) across articles. One of these uses lbf and lbm, one uses lb_f, and another uses lb_m. Mosnum is not doing its job. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 23:24, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

No, the purpose of MOSNUM is to document what are the current practices in the use of units and numbers on Wikipedia. On this encyclopedia, policies and guidelines are descriptive, not prescriptive. Much as it would be nice to be able to promote uniformity of style, the idea that a small group can produce "standards" that are to apply across Wikipedia is one that enjoys no consensus whatsoever. --RexxS (talk) 00:22, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

The (verbatim) stated goal of the MOS is "to make using Wikipedia easier and more intuitive by promoting clarity and cohesion, while helping editors write articles with consistent and precise language, layout, and formatting." One does not achieve clarity and cohesion with three different symbols for the same unit - if the goal was to reflect current practice we would be promoting kbps for kilobit per second, ' " for ft in, lbs. for pounds, kts for knots and nm for nautical mile. I do agree with your last point though; the solution is to encourage inputs to MOSNUM from those who edit the articles. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 09:24, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

The goal may be so, but its purpose has to conform with the policy stated in WP:PAG. So no cabals deciding how we write our articles. For information, a Google search on "site:wikipedia.org +kbps" yields "About 146,000 results", and similar sorts of results for the others. Good luck "promoting clarity and cohesion, while helping editors write articles with consistent and precise language, layout, and formatting" in those articles. --RexxS (talk) 17:56, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

This distinction between descriptive and prescriptive is not useful. If a practice is working and has consensus support, we can write it into the MOS and encourage its consistent use. If two schemes are being used, in confusing conflict, we should look at maybe deciding on which one to encourage and phase out the other. Dondervogel, I think you make a definite proposal or two, informed by this discussion, and open an RFC about it, so we can get more eyes on it and decide whether it's time to resolve the multiple schemes in favor of one. Dicklyon (talk) 17:44, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

The distinction between descriptive and prescriptive is very useful, and you'd do well to bear it in mind. The guidance documented here was once authoritative because it was a distillation of the best practice found on the wiki. Now what is found here is all too often treated with disdain because the small group deciding what is best for everyone are not spending enough time looking for that best practice within articles. I'm all in favour of consensus decision making, but I don't view unpublicised debate between a handful of editors on these pages as carrying any more weight than CONLOCAL allows. By all means, set up a proposal and open a well publicised RfC. The results of that are far more likely to be useful in encouraging editors to adopt a consistent scheme across Wikipedia. --RexxS (talk) 21:57, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

I have already made a proposal, to adopt lbf for pound-force and lb for avoirdupois pound, on the grounds that these are the international standard symbols . It was reverted. Now it is up to others to make a counter-proposal to sort out this mess. I don't see a need for a formal rfc. A well-publicized discussion on this page should suffice. I'm happy to help with reaching out if you tell me which projects need to be informed. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 22:39, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

References

NM and nmi for nautical mile

Is it really necessary to have 2 different unit symbols for nautical mile? I don't see the benefit of the duplication, and have the impression that nmi is in more widespread use than NM. Would anyone object to removing NM is an option? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:05, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

I realize I'm being today's naysayer, but I think this would be better coming from people who work on actual articles that use that unit. There might be some reason it's the way it is. EEng 22:26, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

As well as those that work on the articles, perhaps a nod to sailors might be relevant. I've just grabbed my copy of Reed's Skippers handbook (which is in the desk next to me) and in the section on "Measuring distance" it uses "NM" and "nm", but not "nmi".

fair enough - if it ain't broke why fix it Dondervogel 2 (talk) 22:51, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

References

Headings on a TV series page

Should the headings on a multi-season TV series page be "season one" or "season 1"? The former appears to comply with the MoS but the latter appears to be in common use. IanB2 (talk) 07:49, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Have you raised this question at WP:Wikiproject Television? I cannot believe this hasn't come up before. EEng 08:11, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

it would be helpful to clarify the general issue first, since the same question surely arises with anything divided into numbered parts where headings or sub-headings are used? If I am not misreading the MoS a discussion on tv is the next place to go, I guess IanB2 (talk) 08:18, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

In most cases we would follow the format of the sources, so there's no issue. But here I can imagine there's been a desire for consistency within articles, specifically on the point of TV seasons, and (I repeat) I suspect that's been discussed on the Project already. EEng 08:31, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

MOS ERA

To quote the policy: "BP years are given as 18,000 BP or spelled out as 18,000 years before present (not 18,000 YBP, 18,000 before present, 18,000 years before the present, or similar)."

18,000 BP - 18,000 what BP? one might ask.

If this is a scientific notation, there should be no room for making assumptions. We should be saying either 18,000 years BP, or we should be accepting 18,000 YBP after first defining it in an article.

Does anyone have an opinion on this before I amend the policy, please? Regards,  William Harris |talk  04:30, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

I cannot discern what your concern is or what you're proposing. EEng 05:09, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

BP is a specific notation that applies to radiocarbon dating. It does not apply to dates calculated by other methods, such as historical records. The specific abbreviation recognized by the scientific community should be used rather than an abbreviation invented by Wikipedia. Jc3s5h (talk) 06:02, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I get it now. Jc is right. If you're concerned about the reader understanding, I guess the first use of BP could be linked to Before Present. EEng 16:01, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, Jc is indeed correct but so is William Harris IMO. I find both "BP" and "years before present" too cryptic without explanation. I support a MOS requirement to link to an appropriate definition on first use. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 16:13, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your support, and forgiving my initial lack of clarity above. We also have scientific articles quite comfortably using YBP after it has been initially defined, of which this is one of many examples: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4446326/ It is often used in ancient DNA studies, and I can see no reason why Wikipedia should not be doing the same rather than banning the term "YBP" with no reason provided. Regards,  William Harris |talk  03:09, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

I have now updated the article with what I believe encapsulates our view here. Please review it for confirmation. Regards,  William Harris |talk  20:24, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

OK to change date ranges in titles of cited works to use en dashes?

Here is an example of a change to a cite web template. Another editor objected to the change. I sometimes find it less than obvious what exact punctuation was used on a web page, and I don't think Wikipedia is obliged to keep the original punctuation if a web page uses a hyphen, minus sign or em dash in a date range. Even harder to tell what kind of dash/hyphen is on the cover of a book. What do others think? Chris the speller ^yack 15:38, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Changing to the ndash in a title is appropriate under MOS:QUOTE#Typographic conformity, and as much as I hate so much of AWB tinkering, I don't think it's an "insignificant or inconsequential edits" under AWB Rule #4 (which was the objection made when that change was reverted). But I'll leave that latter question to the Talmudic scholars. EEng 16:24, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Resolved

The section on typographic conformity really covers it. Thanks. Chris the speller ^yack 03:21, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Ocupado

At Uncertain, incomplete, or approximate dates, we have:

When a person is known to have been active ("flourishing") during certain years, fl., [[Floruit|fl.]], or {{fl.}} may be used:

  •   Jacobus Flori (fl. 1571–1588) ...

The linked forms should not be used on disambiguation pages, and "active" followed by the range is a better alternative for artists, soldiers and other persons with an occupation.

That last bit has apparently been there for some time. A year or two ago I added the html comment, <!-- Huh? As opposed to kings, queens, and clergymen, who sit around all day? What about mathematicians – do they have an "occupation"? --> but there has been no reply to date. Any thoughts? EEng 07:32, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

To my understanding floruit was originally used for historians, grammarians, etc etc for when they began their work, or began to rule, or basically when people cared about them. From this I propose it be changed to: "The linked forms should not be used on disambiguation pages, and "active" followed by the range is a better alternative for occupations relating to composition of works, whether it be musical, grammatical, historical, or any other written work." I don't include the whole "began to rule" part as it's by far outdated. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 07:42, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Wait... First you said fl. would be used for grammarians, but then you said active would be used for them. EEng 08:15, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for the contradictory statement, should be that historians, grammarians, etc etc are floruit, and most other professions would be active. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 08:17, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

OK, but I think most editors will find historians, grammarians, etc. decidedly vague guidance, and even if we fleshed that out it will still seem arbitrary. I wish I could suggest that fl. and active can be used -- either of them -- for anyone, but our article Floruit indicates there really is some subtlety of usage. Paging the omniscient Tony1. EEng 08:35, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Omniscient? This is undeserved flattery of one who probably lacks common sense in certain ways! I've no problem with "fl" for any sort of historical figure. No need for variants. New Hart's Rules (Oxford) makes no distinction either. [8]. "Brennus, Gaulish leader, invader of Italy (fl. 390 B.C.)" and so on. [9]. All types of folk there with "fl." A constable (in the old sense), an earl, and the usual motley assemblage of literary types. Tony (talk) 10:42, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

The space in a value

See #Unit_names_and_symbols, the 29kg example. I propose to split example into two independent issues: 1. When to use a space, 2. What kind of space to use (NBSP or simple)? As it is presented now, it is confusing by mixing things up. Also the word "but" is used incorrectly, as there is no contradiction just a different situation; consider reading "and" instead. In split rows:

Use a nonbreaking space ({{nbsp}} or  ) between a number and a unit symbol, or use {{nowrap}}. Certain symbols with which no space is used are shown in the "Specific units" table below.	29 kg Markup: 29 kg or {{nowrap|29 kg}}	29kg
Use a normal space ( ) between a number and a unit name.	29 kilograms Markup: 29 kilograms

-DePiep (talk) 13:46, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

 Done Great idea! EEng 17:03, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I have torn them apart even more. (A multi-conditional rule is more difficult to grasp, while in this case that is not necessary. It is either name or symbol, and they do not interact). -DePiep (talk) 17:55, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Occurs to me now that I introduced some confusion too... Approach should be (and is now in the examples): 1. what kind of space to use before unit symbol, if at all? 2. What kind of space to use befor unit name? Now by this approach, we have two independent (unrelated=simple) statements. -DePiep (talk) 19:49, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Yup. We need clear guidance, not "in most cases" and "special situations" to cloud the issue. There no cases where a need routinely exists for a &nbsp; between a numeral and its unit name, just as there are no cases where one is needed in phrases like "60 soldiers" or "20 lengths". In the very rare cases where a sentence fragment, perhaps used an an example, ought to be kept together in a table cell, the {{nowrap}} is available to avoid confusion. Any such rare exception to a guideline is already provided for in Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines #Role. We don't need to hedge clear-cut guidance, so I've clarified the guidance once more. --RexxS (talk) 18:30, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Singular/plural for mixed units

When I made this edit [10] it seemed perfectly obvious, but on reflection I realize I just don't know. In other words, which are correct?

• (A) 6 foot 5 inches and 6 foot 1 inch or
• (B) 6 feet 5 inches and 6 feet 1 inch

(Obviously there's no issue about the inch/inches.) Our current text on mixed units [11] doesn't explicitly address the question. Thoughts? EEng 01:57, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

It's just an idiomatic English usage of "foot" instead of "feet" for plural units. For no apparent reason, it is perfectly normal to say "he is six foot tall", but I can think of no other unit where that applies – "the pitch is 100 yards long", "the candle is 5 inches high", etc. Of course, "he is six feet tall" is just as acceptable, but my feeling is that it's rather less common, certainly here in the UK. I wouldn't worry about it. --RexxS (talk) 02:25, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

FWIW I’ve heard “ton” used similarly where one would usually expect a plural, as in “She had three ton of fish in her hold.” But I regard this usage as colloquial or dialect, not suitable for a formal register.—Odysseus1479 03:05, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Also FWIW, anecdotally, I often hear "six foot two", never "six feet two", but "six feet two inches" and never "six foot two inches". Primergrey (talk) 03:33, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

• I realize I'm not thinking about this clearly. Let's get away from feet/inches for a second. Are we agreed that (C) is wrong and (D) is right?

• (C) 6 gallon 5 ounces and   6 gallon 1 ounce
• (D) 6 gallons 5 ounces and 6 gallons 1 ounce

EEng 02:33, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

US or imperial? :p

Yes.—Odysseus1479 03:05, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Yessir. Primergrey (talk) 03:34, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

OK, good. I think Primergrey's comment is the key: I often hear "six foot two", never "six feet two", but "six feet two inches" and never "six foot two inches". Clearly we're never going to say merely "A six foot two man" in an article, so that decides it: we're agreed that (B) and (D) are correct, (A) and (C) wrong? EEng 03:43, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

I'd appreciate it if a few of you could take a look [12]. EEng 04:03, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Can't imagine it looking any righter :>)

That'll do, I guess. Primergrey (talk) 05:04, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

That makes me kind of sad, like I'll never achieve this level of perfection again. Please take it back. EEng 05:23, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. We don't want to tempt fate. EEng 08:07, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

I object to this change. It does not address the subject of date formats. Kendall-K1 (talk) 14:45, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

The sad thing is that in a moment someone will actually start arguing about date-format implications of human height. EEng 15:42, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

• Actually, we would say "a six-foot man" because it's being used as an adjective directly in that sort of construction: "a four-inch stick"; a "ten-ton weight"; etc. The colloquialism is when it's used as a predicate: "the man was six foot tall" - I never hear "the man was six feet tall", although it's technically correct. --RexxS (talk) 17:13, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

• What I said is that we'd never write (in an article) "A six foot two man" -- instead we'd write "A man six feet two inches tall" or somesuch. I'm sure you'll agree with that.
• You're right that "a six-foot man" is acceptable, but remember we're talking here about mixed units, so "a six-foot man" is out of scope of this discussion, and unaffected by the change I made. I suppose that leaves the question of "a six-foot one-inch man", but there are some doors man was never meant to open.
• "The man was six foot tall" is what I must have been thinking of when I made this edit [13],but it's a colloquialism we'd never use in an article (which is why I immediately reverted myself). BTW, "The man was six feet tall" seems perfectly natural to me.

I take it you're OK with my edit (linked a few posts back)? EEng 02:10, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Hidden meaning

Just wanted to share with my esteemed fellow editors that anagrams of Manual of Style incude Of, um, anal style; Foul, lame, nasty; and Lame! Flay us not!. EEng 15:54, 31 December 2016 (UTC)