Talk:Location hypotheses of Atlantis

Antarctica edits

Lovecraft wrote novels, and has no place in this article. Perhaps a page on Atlantis in fiction, or does that already exist?

Similarly, unless there's a citation, mention of the 60s and 70s popularity of Atlantis in Antarctica is directly contradicted by the article itself. Many books with this theory have come out in the 90s and 2000s.

TrooperDave

COI edit war

I'm tempted just to let them go to it, but I'm not sure it is good for Wikipedia to have two authors of Atlantis stuff continually changing each others edits. Doug Weller (talk) 07:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to be blunt

This article is nothing but a list of random fringe theories. We're giving undue weight to unscientific speculation. Let's take the section Location hypotheses of Atlanti#British Isles. Comet impact? When? Where? I might not know every comet impact, but one that would that much damage would be familiar to us. The draining of the glacial Lake Agassiz water levels worldwide by one meter, and that's the estimate of precisely one scientist. Moreover, it happened 13,000 years ago, long before civilization was extant in Europe. Much of the British Isles were under ice during the Devensian glaciation. And I'm looking just at one section. If the editors are going to create a hypothesis about Atlantis, how about giving weight to reasonable speculation, not unscientific woo. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 17:13, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me to actually be a collection of nationalistic myth-location claims. I'm tempted to AfD the article or to boldly propose merging with some other article. Simonm223 (talk) 20:57, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Any scientifically-based speculation on this subject is going to start from the majority opinion among classical scholars that Plato made up the Atlantis story. There are a handful of people who believe that Plato might have been drawing on oral traditions about prehistoric civilizations destroyed by natural catastophes (e.g., the eruption of Thera, but this is a minority position. Everyone who claims to have found the true location of Atlantis is fringe. I think there's some value in listing the notable attempts to find Atlantis, since it's such a huge subject in pop culture, but that necessarily means that almost all of this article will be devoted to fringe material. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:50, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this article is a compilation of fringe theories. However, the subject is most certainly notable and the massive amount of external references generated by people for hundreds of years meets the requirements of WP:FRINGE for inclusion in wikipedia. The article should be considered as a whole, not just as independent pieces. As to whether a given sub-section has enough references and notability could be open for debate. I would propose that any subsection with at least 2 independent, credible citations could be included, so long as it is presented in the right tone.

Finally, don't get hung up on mistaking scientifically accurate with notable. A significant portion of 'human knowledge' involves the study and pursuit of fringe subsjects. Even if the 'theory' is widely recognized as inaccurate, it may often still be interesting to many Wikipedia readers and deserves inclusion, thus the reason for the WP:FRINGE guidline. Wikipedia is not the place to attempt to prove (or disprove for that matter) a fringe theory. Therefore, I would not recommend spending effort here attacking individual theories. Dspark76 (talk) 15:33, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, just to set a base for comparison, I think this article is in much better condition than some similar articles such as Formal studies of Bigfoot or List_of_major_UFO_sightings.

Corrections about the several errors

1- "...Plato's description of a palace where water was plentiful, collected from the surrounding hills and of a multilevel acropolis sitting on a great, flattened, terraced hilltop, is a good match with the digs at Knossus and Akrotiri..."

This is false! Plato never said that the Acropolis of Atlantis was multilevel nor on terraced hilltop!

2- Plato also never mentioned "volcanic eruption" in Atlantis history.

3- Plato never said also that "the external walls of the palace were said to shine like silver", this is a mere falsification of the Plato's texts!.

4- Plato never said taht the "rocks white, black, and red were extracted from the hills and used to construct a great island city", this is false also! Plato only said that were used in the construction of the some edifices, but no precise more...

5- Also is false! that "unearthed frescos from the island have depicted Santorini with a configuration that can be interpreted in this way", ie, as a series of concentric circles of land surrounded by water, each connected to the sea by a deep canal, like metropolis of Atlantis.

6- Is false! also that "the Egyptians used the Kepchu (or Kftjw) name for to denominate to Atlantis". It is not possible to use a mere speculation as if it was a verified fact.

7- The Kftyw argument is very little demonstrative, no significate nothing. No exist relation with the narration of Atlantis nor with none of the Atlantean names.

Mr Dspark76 could be show the palaeographical evidences, ie, the Greek texts from Critias with these affirmations.

Kind regards, --Georgeos Díaz-Montexano (talk) 14:38, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Georgeos Diaz-Montexano,
Thank you for your efforts to improve the accuracy to the cited references for the Santorini section. I'd like to respond to some of your questions:

1) I am not the editor who orginally entered this text. So please do link any 'affirmations' to me. However, I do believe that these affirmations were made by the reference cited.

2) I believe that the concentric circle fresco is shown here:

Fresco found at Akrotiri

3) I don't see in the july 2 text (prior to your edits) that an assertion between plato and a volcano was made. The former second bullet did not mention Plato. I think you may have misread this text.

4) I do not understand why, if you think so many of these statements are false that you have reverted to the June 24th longer list of bullets. On July 2, I restored the abridged list (about 5 bullets). The abridged list resulted from some former discussion (see above: Crete and Santorini). The problem with all the bullets from the older version was that it seemed to rely too heavily (and give too much weight) on one reference and did not take a wider view of the different sources working on this 'theory'. From your above comments, you also seem to take issue with this source, yet you still restored the longer list. Was this intentional?

5) Kepchu (or Kftjw): I agree that this should not be asserted as fact. I think the prior section was worded poorly. However, we need to remember that wikipedia is not the correct forum for attempting to prove or disprove a theory. Wikipedia is intended to be a tertiary source (see Wikipedia:FRINGE#Sourcing_and_attribution). We should avoid statements that attempt to argue for or against a point, but simply state the two sides (with references).

6) I don't think the way this section is stated now achieves these goals. It could be interpreted that the recent reverts between the short list July 2 and March 2008 and the recent edits by me, yourself and 214.42.16.203 represent either 2 or 3 reverts. I would like to work together to come to some sort of consensus before making any further edits so that we don't trip into Wikipedia:3_revert_rule.

I would very much appreciate your comments and further discussion toward this end.

Best regards, Dspark76 (talk) 15:56, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

You need a source for the concentric sources thing I think. Either of you ever read Atlantis Destroyed by Rodney Castleden? Doug Weller (talk) 18:51, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi Dougweller,

how about this reference? I wish I could find the oringinal McCoy source...

http://www.decadevolcano.net/santorini/atlantis.htm

"1. Plato tells about a circular island with concentric structures. Santorini today does have an impressive concentric geographic setting and had it also before the Minoan eruption. This has come out as a result of detailed geologic studies during the past 20 years, see the chapter of the reconstruction of the ring-shaped pre-Minoan island [1] with a central shield. Furthermore Heiken and McCoy (1990) indicated that the famous picture in the West House from the Akrotiri excavations most likely represents a relatively naturalistic portrait of Thera. It shows an inhabited and flowering island landscape and the departing Therean fleet, and actually some concentric water-land ring structures are visible, too. "

Dspark76 (talk) 07:36, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

• • ... and, no I havent read Atlantis Destroyed (other than about 10 pages worth before google books preview cut me off). Do you have it? It looks like it could be a useful reference... Thanks, Dspark76 (talk) 07:41, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I've reviewed it on Amazon US and UK, it is a brilliant book. Doug Weller (talk) 08:11, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

• • See this from Castleden (who says Thera never had concentric circles). [2] He thinks the bit about three concentric circles is a morph from fortifications at Syracuse. Doug Weller (talk) 08:11, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

• • Thanks for providing the link to the relevant Althantis Destroy section. I think page 150 is the relevent page. My interpretation is that Althantis Destroyed was probably based on the 1984 McCoy construction of the pre-eruption shape of Santorini. However, several 1988 - 2000 studies have concluded that there was actually a ring shape with island center. See: [[3]] for more details. Dspark76 (talk) 06:23, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

• OK, since its been about a week without further discussion, I'm going to restore to abridged list and attempt to include the suggested improvements above... Dspark76 (talk) 05:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
• I'm still attempting to clean up the (mis)quoted plato terms. A good reference for Plato's text is here: [4] pages 89-99. However, to avoid original research, I'm trying to tied plato's text to the various referenced sources. This might take a bit of work and may require re-working some of the paragraphs. I'll mark them with the tags for now and fix them as I can. If anyone wants to chime in, please feel free... Thanks, Dspark76 (talk) 07:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

For consideration:

"Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet. He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold, and making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from the soil." [5] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.127.128.2 (talk) 00:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

"Some of their buildings were simple, but in others they put together different stones, varying the colour to please the eye, and to be a natural source of delight. The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost zone, they covered with a coating of brass, and the circuit of the next wall they coated with tin, and the third, which encompassed the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum". [6] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.127.128.2 (talk) 00:23, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

(Spoken by Critias) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.127.128.2 (talk) 00:28, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but still anybody responded my questions, and the erros and falsifications about Plato's words, still continued.

Corrections about the several errors:

1- "...Plato's description of a palace where water was plentiful, collected from the surrounding hills and of a multilevel acropolis sitting on a great, flattened, terraced hilltop, is a good match with the digs at Knossus and Akrotiri..."

This is false! Plato never said that the Acropolis of Atlantis was multilevel nor on terraced hilltop!

2- Plato also never mencioned "volcanic eruption" in Atlantis history.

3- Plato never said also that "the external walls of the palace were said to shine like silver", this is a mere falsification of the Plato's texts!.

4- Plato never said that the "rocks white, black, and red were extracted from the hills and used to construct a great island city", this is false also! Plato only said that were used in the construction of the some edifices, but no precise more...

5- Also is false! that "unearthed frescos from the island have depicted Santorini with a configuration that can be interpreted in this way", ie, as a series of concentric circles of land surrounded by water, each connected to the sea by a deep canal, like metropolis of Atlantis.

6- Is false! also that "the Egyptians used the Kepchu (or Kftjw) name for to denominate to Atlantis". It is not possible to use a mere speculation as if it was a verified fact.

7- The Kftyw argument is very little demonstrative, no significate nothing. No exist relation with the narration of Atlantis nor with none of the Atlantean names.

Mr Dspark76 could show here - for all - palaeographical evidence, ie the texts of Greek Critias and Timaeus with these statements?

Wikipedia can not promote the lies and falsification of historical sources. No matter what the prestige of an author of modern times, if his statements or conclusions are based on lies and forgery of ancient texts and the historical sources.

Wikipedia can not support these fakes and these fallacies. If you want these falsifications of Plato's words continue to exist in Wikipedia (because this theory is the most like you), at least you are obliged to explain - along with every one of these fakes - that these assertions and conclusions do not correspond to the real Plato's words we know in texts written in Greek and Latin, the Timaeus and Critias.

I appreciate the effort, but the reality is that you have not replied to each of my questions, and you still have not shown nor even a single evidence or proof that in Plato's dialogues (Timaeus and Critias) there are words or phrases, for hold (with real scientific rigor) these claims these authors which you insist on keeping us in this Wikipedia article.

Kind regards, --Georgeos Díaz-Montexano (talk) 16:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

---

Ok I reviewed Montexanos points about THERA and I concluded that he is right about it. There is no such a thing about (point 1) multilevel or anything like that. This is a speculation. Also if there was a volcano(point 2) Plato would have mentioned it. Maybe there was but its source must have been not within the island otherwise he would have mentioned it. He said in one night and day of misfortune the island disappeared into the depths of the Sea. So the island itself is submerged. This is the proof that Thera is not ATLANTIS. Furthermore, Plato knew Thera very well, as did the Egyptian priest, why would he go into all that trouble to describe the location when he would have said, ‘where Thera is’. So Montexano is right on these points; they’re all speculations. There is nothing in the writings of Plato that resembles Thera. As for the concentric point; most calderas are round concentric things. I have read Plato in English as well as Greek version and there is no mention of the KEFTIU and Atlantis relationship. So too conclude there are few major conflicts with this theory.

1) Thera did not totally submerged

2) Its people did not disappear, as they populated the later Greek areas.

3) Thera was well known by Plato as well as by the Egyptian priest.

4) Is not near or has any relationship to/with Pillars of Hercules (any possible pillars).

5) Atlanteans weren’t Greeks, while the Minoans are the predecessors of modern Greeks.

6) Thera was destroyed around 1600 B.C While Atlantis existed at least 9,000 years prior to Solon.

I can go on for ever. Would be easier to point out that there is actually not serious evidence that shows that Atlantis was in Santorini. --Xellas (talk) 13:01, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I tried to post Coordinates for Mount Sipylus and was edited into oblivion. While I don't necessarily believe that any of these locations is more likely than any other, it would be cool to have the all coordinates that correspond to the proposed locations for a little Google Earth amusement, Eh?

• • Try these co-ordinates: - 56° 6'14.74"N, 22°18'22.42"W --Dharma-815 (talk) 21:33, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I looked at that area in a Java based Sea Level tool. ( http://merkel.zoneo.net/Topo/Applet/ ) A rough estimate would indicate a need for the sea level to fall below 1400 meters. The lowest Sea level in Human time scales is said to be only 200 meters below the current. I will accept this as a possible area that has "Sunk" due to the geologic instability in that area but a conventional ice-age melt scenario is not likely... Nifty geometry in that area though, will have to take a better look in Virtual Ocean... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.127.128.2 (talk) 18:41, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Mid-Atlantic Ridge Theory

HISTORY FROM PLATO'S DIALOGUE "CRITIAS" that fixes the time of Atlantis' demise hypothesis

Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them...

Plato's final years were spent at the Academy and with his writing. The circumstances surrounding his death are clouded, though it is fairly certain that he died in Athens around 348 B.C.E., when he was in his early 80s.

This year is 2017. 9000 + 348 + 2017 = 11,365 years before present

However,

Sometime around 385 B.C.E., Plato founded a school of learning, known as the Academy, which he presided over until his death.

Plato established the Academy and he taught there 37 years before his death in his early 80's, which could add as much as 37 years to the year of the demise of Atlantis. So the demise of Atlantis from this could have been as much as 11,402 years ago.

The Holocene is the name given to the last 11,700 years* of the Earth's history — the time since the end of the last major glacial epoch, or "ice age."

The range of error of correlation between these two dates from different sources is from 298 years to 335 years because of Plato's career range with the Academy. 11,700 - 11,365 = 335 difference, the largest error, the error is 335 / 11,700 X 100 equals roughly between 2 - 3 % or calculation yields 2.8632479% to 10 decimal places. If I were to apply statistical calculations we could rely upon mathematical correlation without question that Atlantis' demise was at the end of the most recent ice age or at the end of the Holocene Epoch according to Plato. RAYLEIGH22 (talk) 16:13, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

I have copied this last section from the Discussion on the main Atlantis page, since I think it's more relevant here. I am the original author of the second paragraph below as well. I didn't know if it would be worth researching a bit more to add in as a possible location in the Atlantic Ocean. Behold

Quoted by an unknown author:

"did it conatined atlantis?

i know i theory wich asserts that the flood of noath had coverd the island wich was the mid-atlantic ridge above water.

http://geology.wr.usgs.gov/parks/pltec/noaaMidAtlanticRidgeL.jpg"

I'm going to assume this is a legitimate question, but I can't tell if the grammar is intentionally or unintentionally wrong. Graham Hancock's book from 2003-ish, called "Underworld: The Mysterious Origins of Civilization," goes into a lot of detail on the inundations after the most recent meltings of the ice age polar ice sheets (around 18,000 YA, 16,000 YA, and 11,000 YA), and at the time of those inundations, the Mid Atlantic Ridge was above water. He further speculated, based on the shapes of the land that would have been above ground, that portions of the Ridge match Plato's description of Atlantis. Furthermore, when the 11,000 YA inundations happened, though it would not have been "overnight," the sea waters would have risen anywhere from 60 to 100 meters (190 to 330 feet) in the course of a few years, and would have definitely given the "Atlanteans" a lot of concern over the future of their continent. Hancock's theories are often posited as "pseudoscience" and "pseudoarchaeology," but there is a lot of research to say that those theories may have some merit after all. All this to say, of course, that there's no way of knowing for sure right now, but recent science does seem to indicate that as of 11,000 YA, the Mid-Atlantic Ridge was above water. --Brandon (talk) 18:03, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

It does? Malaise made claims about that quite some time ago, but who agrees with them now? Do you know how deep the mid-Atlantic ridge is? You'd need some good sources for this. dougweller (talk) 20:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't mean the entire ridge, obviously, but the tallest peaks are above water even today (Iceland, the Azores, Gough Island, others I can't remember). This would have more to do with just the tallest sections of the ridge than the entire ridge itself, and I apologize if I implied otherwise. Anyway, it's still just theory (as is all of this article), so I have no qualms one way or the other with whether or not it is included. --Brandon (talk) 20:24, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at [7] which although Usenet and a bit old is interesting about the Azores. There's also the Atlantis Massif of course. Minor problems about lack of evidence for any ships that could have sailed there of course. I always think the fact that there was no city of Athens as that time is the real killer though -- but I digress and I criticise others for using this as a forum, so I'll shut up. dougweller (talk) 22:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Shallow marine coastal deposits dating to the last interglacial, Eemian, have been found along the coast of Santa Maria Island (Azores). These deposits lie about 2 to 4 meters above current sea level. Thus, the sea level during the last interglacial was very close to modern and there has been a complete absence of any significant subsidence of this island during the last 114,000 - 130,000 years. If anything, there has been ongoing uplift of this island. For example, Santa Maria Island has extensive interglacial wave cut platforms at 5-10 meters, 15-40 meters, 50-70 meters, 80-120 meters and 140-160 meters above modern sea level. Thus, Santa Maria Island has actually risen relative to modern sea level by at least 160 m during the Pleistocene. Similar Pleistocene (interglacial) wave cut platforms has been described and dated for Flores Island. Some publications that discuss this are:

Avila, S. P., P. Madeira, N. Mendes, A. Rebelo, A. Medeiros, C. Gomes, F. Garcia-Talavera, C. M. da Silva, M. Cachao, C. Hillaire-Marcel, and A. M. de Frias Martins, 2008, Mass extinctions in the Azores during the last glaciation: fact or myth? Journal of Biogeography. v. 35, p. 1123–1129.

Serralheiro, A., and Madeira, J., 1999, Stratigraphy and geochronology of Santa Maria Island, Azores. in pp. 357-376, Livro de Homenagem ao Prof. Carlos Romariz, Departamento de Geologia da, Faculdade de Ciencias da Universidade de Lisboa, Lisborn, Portugal.

Zbyszewski, G., and F. O. da V. Ferreira, 1962, Etude geologique de l'le de Santa Maria (Acores) Comunicacoes dos Servicos Geologicos de Portugal. v. 46, p. 209-245.

Notice that some of these papers date to 1999 and 1962, which means that proponents of the Azores and the Mid-Atlantic Ridge being Atlantis have been ignoring contradictory data and interpretations for decades. Malaise's ideas have been completely discredited by observations made and data collected since he published his ideas.Paul H. (talk) 14:41, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I will suggest that the Turkey entry include "Karagöl" (The black lake) as this is also posited as the location of Tantalus:

+38° 33' 28.00", +27° 13' 0.36"

Google Maps —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.127.128.2 (talk) 22:32, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Atlantic section

Hi, I miss South-Morocco within the Atlanic Ocean section of the article. I guess it is important for the completeness. e.g. the Souss-Massa hypothesis: http://www.asalas.org Truemate (talk) 18:14, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I moved the Bahama Bank and Cuba subsections to the Atlantic Ocean section--last I heard, they were both in the Atlantic. If you are sure they have drifted elsewhere while I wasn't looking, please provide citations ;-) Freederick (talk) 08:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

About Xellas Editings

I made some very important and constructive changes but someone (ClueBot) try to undo my work. Also I did delete most of Sarmast info as it was to detailed. His entire essay was taking so much space. It should not be more than a passage per theory. Everyone deserves his place on Wiki not just certain names. Also the introduction it was referring to Spain as Atlantis. It was misleading. Please explain why do you think that's a vandalism (to ClueBot).--Xellas (talk) 18:26, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

I separated Malta From Sicily. They're two different theories. Although they're close to each other I do not see any connections between them.--Xellas (talk) 18:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

I fixed the introduction and gave a detailed info on how the story got to us, through Solon, Dropides, Critas Plato....--Xellas (talk) 18:37, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Cluebot is a 'bot', software that detects certain types of edits, in this case the deletion of a large amount of text. Dougweller (talk) 18:47, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

I kind of suspected that. thanks D.--Xellas (talk) 18:57, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Someone with IP: 98.248.33.198 is playing around. can someone identify this person? --Xellas (talk) 22:28, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not playing around, it's restoring massive amounts of sourced material. My identity is irrelevant, and attempting to ID me is a violation of WP guidelines. 98.248.33.198 (talk) 22:31, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Of course is rrelevant. you don't just undo things? where did you see massive amounts? I have the right to edit anything that is in violation of WP. Why don't you use your ID? Also undoing things for no reasons is a violation of WP!!! So go through my changes and tell me if something is wrong with them, otherwise move on...--Xellas (talk) 22:35, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Xellas, there have been around 5 different users undoing your removal of sourced content. That means that there's no consensus for the removal of that content. When you don't have consensus, you need to stop edit warring. The other thing is that anonymous editors (IPs) are allowed (with the exception of sockpuppeting) to edit and don't have to reveal their identity.

You have both violated the three revert rule policy yesterday. Please, continue discussing your points instead of edit warring and asking editors to reveal their identity.

98.248.33.198, you too... please abide by the 3RR policy. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 03:43, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

It's funny but none commented on it till they blocked me and that's not fair. This is supposed to be debatable before you disregard someone's contribution. There was not a single comment on it. Why was so hard for them to tell me the reasons. Just stating 3RR doesn't explain anything. That means that these so called moderators are not worth of their position. They insulted me in a way. I am open for debate. If I see that my info is not either referenced or correct I would be happy to obey the rules. Anyway I would like to contribute to the subject and I will start with small things. In case someone doesn't like the changes they can say so not just undo them without explanations. And also the person that was doing the UNDOING was blocked before me.. What does that tell you?

P.S. I still believe I didn't commit a 3RR, rather the moderators had a conflict of interest. They should be more open minded rather than just.... anyway --Xellas (talk) 16:14, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

ABOUT Sarmast long paragraph.

I believe it should be brought down to a few sentences. It’s not fair to others. The passages are to long and to detailed, his entire work is in there. If someone needs to know more about him or his work a link should be provided. --Xellas (talk) 16:17, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

The problem is not that the passage about Sarmast's idea is too long. The problem is that more detail needs to be added to the descriptions and discussion of the other proposed locations of Atlantis. Your way of simplifying and shortening the discussion about Sarmast's ideas curiously has the effect of removing any criticism of his ideas. I have to wonder if that your actual intent in making these changes was remove (censor) any discussion and sources that either disputes, contradicts, or refutes Sarmast's claims using the excuse that the passages are "too long and too detailed" and, thus, not being "fair to others." Your manner of shortening the section about Sarmast's ideas is extremely biased against and unfair to, whether intended to or not, the presentation of any opposing points of view to those advocated by Robert Sarmast.Paul H. (talk) 12:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, paul, with all do respect...this is WIKIPEDIA, not his personal site. You have more than two pages (11x8 standart) of detaileds of his work. that's consider too long for WP. Imagine if we add as much as you added in there for eaqch of the 1,000 theories out there? Who's gona read all that "garbage"? So now tell me is it fair? And to be fair, it has nothing to do with Atlantis...?! --Xellas (talk) 21:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

While this is kind of old, I agree with Xellas. This is an article that contains a summary of different theories. If one theory has a lot more information, and is well cited, then a summary should be on this page and the full text should be split off into its own article. 98.127.168.159 (talk) 04:45, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

About Malta Section

I noticed that Malta (Although I am not a big fan!) has been reduced to only a paragraph and the names of the Atlantologists been erased. I remember it used to be better. There are well known archeologists and serious researchers in Malta that are looking for Atlantis. I believe they deserve to be mentioned although they're referenced (?)

I found the old version and combined with the new version. I think it looks nice, although there is room for improvement. I also inserted an Image from one of those theories. As I mentioned I don’t agree with the hypothesis, nevertheless I believe it deserves to be shown. I will explain that the image is just a speculation by Malta theorists. --Xellas (talk) 14:02, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

External links

There are far too many -- see WP:EL. Some of the links in the external links section should be removed because they are already used as references, others because they are laden with advertising, others because they don't meet our criteria in other ways. Dougweller (talk) 17:46, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

What on earth has advertising got to do with it? That's a nonsense standard. I don't see links to Amazon.com being removed on the amazon page. That's one big advert. It's a shop. People have a right to earn income to pay for their sites. Please cite a specific rule that sites cannot be linked to for commercial reasons. (which would be insane and I doubt exists.)

There are also not far too many links. That's entirely subjective. Lastly some of the links you're removing are non commercial sites with creative commons 3.0 licenses. That's open source. Atlantipedia.com for example. (talk) 20.00, 3 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.119.237 (talk)

North Sea hypotheses

The date given for Spanuth's publication is misleading; 2001 is three years after Spanuth's death, and the original was no posthumous publication. In fact, his book Das enträtselte Atlantis maintaining the already well-known Northern hypothesis was published as far back as 1953 and sparked great controversy in Germany at the time for advocating what was known as Nazi ideology.

The fact that Spanuth used to publish in far right publication houses also highlights the actual origins of the Northern hypothesis of Atlantis which identified "Atland" as the Norse mythological island of Thule situated in what is now the North Sea (whereas this Northern hypothesis of Atlantis makes it out as a continental landmass originally connecting modern-day Germany, the Netherlands, Britain, and Ireland). The German Wikipedia article on Atlantis and its location isn't quite clear on who first proposed it when, but it mentions specifically Alfred Rosenberg's The Myth of the Twentieth Century as one major source, and muses upon an influence of James Churchward upon Rosenberg, whereas Churchward had written of "white, racially pure inhabitants of Mu".

From Michael Rißmann (2001), Hitlers Gott (Pendo Verlag, 312 pages, ISBN 3858424218), I know that via Ahnenerbe's Dutch lay historian Herman Wirth (who'd published on this Northern hypothesis during the 1920s), Heinrich Himmler was another determined advocate of the Northern hypothesis of Atland, which tied in with his belief in the Welteislehre adopted during the 1920s by German nationalists and neo-paganists within the völkisch movement. Basically, Himmler believed that one of earth's "earlier moons" had crashed on earth several millennia before Christ, thereby destroying the landmass of Atland as the Urheimat of Indo-European peoples (Indogermanen in German), causing the subsequent belligerent spread of Indo-Europeans across Europe and Asia, and giving rise to mythological legends such as Ragnarök, the Biblical Deluge, and, of course, the tale of Atlantis related by Plato. Himmler therefore saw especially Heligoland as a spritually significant place (even considering some esoteric "force field" upon the island affecting the assumptive "power" of neo-pagan rituals to be performed there) within his pseudo-Norse occultism due to being a remnant of sunken Atland.

Considering that the 1867 Oera Linda book is another significant source for the Northern hypothesis, its adoration by Himmler via Dutch-born Hermann Wirth, as well as the fact that its German article mentions its colloquial cognomen Himmlers Bibel ("Himmler's bible"), it might be a safe bet to assume that Oera Linda might be the original source locating Atlantis in the North Sea. --79.193.122.152 (talk) 10:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

New location hypothesis: Pavlopetri, Greece

Submerged town of Pavlopetri between Neapolis and Elafonissos island, off of Laconia, Greece.
"Lost Greek city that may have inspired Atlantis myth gives up secrets". Helena Smith, guardian.co.uk, Friday 16 October 2009 - http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/oct/16/lost-greek-city-atlantis-myth -
- 189.122.20.64 (talk) 16:54, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Atlantis in Greenland

Deleted

Mario Dantas (talk) 22:09, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the bedrock and Quaternary geology of Greenland is extremely well documented in innumerable publications to the point that any hypothesis that Greenland once was Atlantis, as you propose, is ready refuted. To come up with a credible argument for Greenland being Atlantis, you will have show how the data and interpretations found in hundreds of published scientific papers concerning the geomorphology; Quaternary and bedrock geology; and paleoclimatology of Antarctica provide the least bit of support to your proposal. For starters, look at:

Fulton, R. J, 1989, Quaternary Geology of Canada and Greenland. Geological Survey of Canada, Geology of Canada Series; no. 1. Geological Society of America, Geology of North America Series; VOL. K-01. 838 pp. Paul H. (talk) 14:23, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Deleted

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mario Dantas (talk • contribs) 08:46, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

This talk page is not meant for discussion of where Atlantis might be, but of sources, layout, anything to do with the article. Blogs and personal websites won't qualify as sources, and if we are going to mention Greenland we would use a published author who's been mentioned enough elsewhere to make their idea significant. Others have suggested this in the past, eg James Bramwell, maybe we can use something about Greenland but I'm afraid not your blog or you. Dougweller (talk) 09:40, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

mounting madness

I do not recall that At the mountains of madness makes mention of Atlantis being in the Antartic. The only mention nof Atlantis I recall in that the ruins are older then Atlantis, tus implying that Lovecraft does not intend us to assume that the city of the old ones is Atlantis. Also its fiction so cannot be used to demonstate that human knowlegde of an ice free Antartica is based on old knowledge.Slatersteven (talk) 17:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree, and have deleted the bit about the Lovecraft story. Cardamon (talk) 08:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Mediterranean fact vs. conjecture

The "Near Cyprus" theory lists a number of current scientific assumptions as fact, and needs to be modified. What differentiates science from pseudo-science is physical evidences/facts/proofs. The sites which were cored, as listed on the article, do not include the Cyprus Arc itself, which is the proposed site of Atlantis. The Cyprus Arc is an elevated plateau at the northeastern tip of the Mediterranean Sea and has no relation whatever to the cored sites, which are dozens or hundreds of miles away.

The citations provided list a number of core sample results from some sites which are below the depth of the Cyprus Arc, and others which are above the elevation of the Cyprus Arc. These results are then provided as the proof that the same results must apply to the Cyprus Arc. These conjectures are no more than educated guesses based on the faulty assumption that the Mediterranean basin has always been at the same level and has experienced no sinking or rising. It does not take into account other scientific papers which claim that the entire eastern Mediterranean sank, calling it a "sunken continent."

The following quote is from Dr. Hall's Geological Framework of the Levant: The Levantine Basin and Israel:

"The Levantine Basin is traditionally the deep basin at the eastern end of the Mediterranean. Since its physiography was first described in the seminal work of Emery, Heezen and Allan (1966) based upon a reconnaissance cruise of the R/V Aragonese in the very early sixties, the Levantine Basin has piqued the interest of earth scientists. The region hosts the junction of three plates, whose interaction has produced complex structures. Because of its relative remoteness, and the uneasy relationships between the seven national entities along its littoral, the area was not easy to investigate. However, the probing since the 1970s has shown that the basin is filled with a great quantity of sediments (12 km or more), and that the nature of its underpinnings is not simple. Many investigators have studied the area. Some have returned again and again to this problematic place. Most propose models for its origin and history based on the findings of the particular tools employed, whether they be bathymetry, gravity, magnetics, seismic reflection, seismic refraction, teleseismic investigations, or submarine geology based on coring, drilling, and dredging. The region’s recent history also seems to beckon. From the pioneering study of our colleague Ya’akov Petrovitch Malovitskiy (1978) who proposed on the basis of seismic investigations that the Levantine Basin was a sunken continent." (Krasheninnikov, V. A., Hall, J. K., Hirsch, F., Benjamini, C. & Flexer, A. (Eds.) (2005) Geological framework of the Levant, Volume I: Cyprus and Syria. Historical Productions-Hall, Jerusalem, Israel)

These assumptions therefore cannot be stated as scientific facts -- only physical evidence from the Cyprus Arc can bring the required verification. The article therefore should say that some or even most "scientists currently believe..." instead of speaking for the whole of the scientific community and claiming final authority. The use of any form of assumption whatsoever negates any proposition as scientific "fact."

For these reasons, the tone of final scientific authority in the article is in error and must be changed to conform to scientific standards and its reliance on requisites proofs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Profsherman (talk • contribs) 18:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The first problem is that Profsherman fails to provide any reliable source that demonstrates that cores have not been taken from the Cyprus Arc. This claim seems to be based solely on his original research, which is not allowed in Wikipedia, instead of any recently published source. Given the degree that the Eastern Mediterranean has been cored, I would suspect that if a person did a comprehensive review of the published literature about the Eastern Mediterranean, that he or she would find Profsherman claims about the lack of cores to be completely false.

Second, I have a copy of Hall (2005). Having read it, it is obvious that Profsherman has carefully selected and edited quotes (quote-mined) from this paper such that they only appear to support his position. In fact, this paper clearly disagrees with both his point of view and his arguments. Mr. Profsherman clearly needs to look through the book, Geological framework of the Levant, Volume II: the Levantine Basin and Israe. If he did, he would an overwhelming abundance of evidence, arguments, and interpretations made from them that completely contradict his arguments. The research found in this book clearly supports the interpretations made by Hübscher et al. (2009) and soundly refutes his claims about the Wikipedia text under discussion being pseudoscience.

Third, regardless of whether cores have been taken from the Cyprus Arc or not, there exists there exist more enough scientific data and evidence to scientifically argue that "Since its formation, the sea bottom feature identified by Sarmast as “Atlantis” has always been submerged beneath over a kilometer of water" as discussed in detail by Hübscher et al. (2009). Given what is known about the behavior of seawater under the influence of gravity the fact that cores at innumerable locations in the Eastern Mediterranean above depth of the Cyprus Arc up to a depth of about 110 meters have been continuously underwater for the past few millions years provides ample scientific evidence that location of Sarmast's "Atlantis" has been underwater for the past few million years. To argue otherwise, a person would have to explain how this location was exempt from both the law of gravity and the effects that gravity has on fluids such seawater. In addition, there is thousand of kilometers of published seismic data, i.e. seismic lines illustrated by Hübscher et al. (2009), cris-crossing all of the Eastern Mediterranean, including the Cyprus Arc. From this seismic data, it is now possibly with an extremely high degree of certainty to reconstruct the tectonic, sea-level, and sedimentation history of almost any location, specifically the well-studied underwater hill claimed by Robert Sarmast to be "Atlantis," in the Eastern Mediterranean. With this seismic data, it is also possible with an extremely high degree of certainty to correlate the sedimentary strata underlying a location for which seismic data is available to locations where the sediments have been cored and their age, lithology, and origin has been determined. Also, different depositional environments have distinct seismic signature. As a result, the depositional environment of a package of strata underlying a specific location can be inferred from how it appears in the seismic data. Thus, although Sarmast's "Atlantis" has not been cored, it is possible to infer the nature and origin of the sediments forming it and scientifically infer its depositional history over the last several millions of years. There is more than enough published research to demonstrate that the claims about the Cyprus Arc having "no relation whatever to the cored sites" and certain so-called "assumptions therefore cannot be stated as scientific facts" are nothing but wrong-headed and factually bankrupt pseudoscience as clearly demonstrated by the data, maps, information, and interpretations contained by the other papers in the book in which Hall (2005) appears, Hübscher et al. (2009), and in innumerable other published papers.

Fourth, I find it revealing that Profsherman is unable to provide a single shred of positive evidence that Sarmast's "Atlantis" was ever above water. All he seems to able to do is argue that literally thousands of marine geologists, oceanographers, exploration geologists, geophysicists, structural geologists, Quaternary geologists, paleoclimatologists, paleo-oceanographers, and many other Earth scientists have been for decades and are currently all actively engaged in pseudoscience because none of them would agree with his support of Sarmast's ideas about the location of Atlantis.

References Cited

Hall, J. K., 2005, Part III – The Levantine Basin Introduction. in Hall, J. K., Krasheninnikov, V. A., Hirsch, F., Benjamini, C. & Flexer, A., eds., pp. 1-20, Geological framework of the Levant, Volume II: the Levantine Basin and Israel. 107 MB PDF version. Historical Productions-Hall, Jerusalem, Israel, pp. 826. (or download from links at CYBAES manuscript downloads

Hübscher, C., E. Tahchi, I. Klaucke, A. Maillard, and H. Sahling, 2009, " Salt tectonics and mud volcanism in the Latakia and Cyprus Basins, eastern Mediterranean. Tectonophysics. v. 470, no. 1-2, pp. 173-182."Paul H. (talk) 20:26, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Additional note: Malovitsky et al. (1975), is a hopelessly antiquated, obsolete, paper based upon equally antiquated and obsolete geophysical data, which now would be considered hopelessly unreliable and insufficient for any sort of modern research. This paper was written before the introduction of plate tectonics and, as a result, uses long discredited notions about vertical tectonics to reconstruct the geologic history of the Mediterranean. It is the now completely discredited vertical tectonics that formed this basis for ideas of a sunken continents in the Mediterranean. Furthermore, this paper was before the Messinian salinity crisis was recognized, As a result, vertical tectonics and sunken continents were mistakenly used to explain the presence of the Messinian evaoporites on the bottom of the Mediterranean instead of the catastrophic drop in sea level that occurred during the Messinian salinity crisis. As a result, this paper is now useless as a reliable source for any discussion of modern knowledge of the geology of the Eastern Mediterranean and support for the claim that the "eastern Mediterranean was/is itself a "sunken continent" and that the use of "core samples". It is mentioned by Hall (2005) only for it historical value given the utterly out-of-date nature of the data, models, and interpretations presented by it.

References Cited:

Malovitsky, Y.P., E.M. Emelyanov, O.V. Kazakov, V.N. Moskalenki, G.V. Osipov, K.M. Shimkus, and I.S. Chumakov, I.S., 1975, Geological structure of the Mediterranean Sea floor (based on geological—Geophysical data). Marine Geology v. 18, no. 4, p. 231-261Paul H. (talk) 23:18, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Bahamas

I am suprised that the Bahamas are not currently mentioned in the series of supposed atlantean locations. This hypothesis is especially popular among disciples of Edgar Cayce, who commonly cite his alleged prophecies as evidence for a site in the Bahamas. [8][9][10] ADM (talk) 08:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Article improvement

I think it would be a good idea to include a comparative table with hypothesis citeria for each hypothesis shown here! This could help editors and readers to get a better idea of how serious a hypothesis is. These criteria should be at least the 24 criteria, derived directly from Plato’s account, which were established at the Atlantis 2005 Conference: http://milos.conferences.gr/index.php?id=4354&L=0 Probably this would stop edit wars or inserting very obscure hypotheses and deletion of more serious ones (by hypothesis competitors). These criteria could be used as a filter to verify if a hypothesis is serious or shady. Hypotheses, which only fulfills few criteria or are scientifical nonsense should not go here or they should be appended at the end of the table. BTW, I think the highhanded deletion of the South-Morocco hypothesis should be undone, because this hypothesis is very serious and fulfills most of the Atlantis 2005 Conference citeria. Of course, creating such a table is a lot of work and I only would start on it if there is some consensus to do so. Any objections? Truemate (talk) 14:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

That would probably be original research, see WP:OR. We have a policy, WP:NPOV, which should keep the obscure out - see in particular WP:UNDUE. Dougweller (talk) 18:51, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi Dougweller, do you want to protect week hypotheses with week arguments? It would not be original research because these 24 criteria are accepted by the scientific community. If a hypothesis satisfy a criteria or not will for sure be reviewed by many other editors. So no original research! It is work, but this work should be done. Actually, this article includes very obscure theories and I really wonder why you single-mindedly or highhandedly delete a hypothesis, which is pretty serious and is published in scientific publications like the Proceedings of the Atlantis Conference? On the other hand, why didn't you delete the really obscure theories in this article? Do you want to give shelter to one of these obscure theories by delteting serious theories, not deleting obscure theories and denying a proper method of evaluation of these theories? I think a scientific publication should also be a criteria for other hypotheses in this article! The policies also say, that new works, where actually no secondary literature is avaiable should be mentioned (like in other encyclopedia), even if it is only supported by minority! I say, we should either delete many other hypotheses (I think the whole article should be deleted, because they are all minority supported or original research, see Sea of Azov, Turkey, near Cyprus etc. etc.), or we have to filter all hypothese by the 24 Conference criteria! I'll undo the deletion of the South-Morocco hypothesis now. Truemate (talk) 12:48, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, let's start with 'accepted by the scientific community'. What reliable source says that? Dougweller (talk) 15:03, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Well I already posted a link to this information. These criteria are very elementary, e.g. "Atlantis was located on an island", etc. These criteria were derived by the scientific community by 'common sense' from Plato's account. As I know, till now there are no contradictions. Don't you agree with these common sense derivations compiled by the scientific community? Truemate (talk) 22:15, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

The conference isn't the 'scientific community'. You need reliable sources claiming that the scientific community has developed these criteria, sources meeting our critiera at WP:RS. My opinion is irrelevant, it's the sources and their quality that count. Dougweller (talk) 05:26, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

No Dougweller, your opinion is not irrelevant. First: you say this is not the scientific community, therfore you decide what the scientific community has to be. Do you have reliable source what is the scientific community concerning Atlantis issues? Dougweller, the scientific community which works seriously on Atlantis issues is pretty small. The Atlantis Conference is the only Conference with scientific background concerning Atlantis. Each scientist, who's work concerns Plato's Atlantis will go there and/or will read the proceedings. The criteria are part of the published proceedings. Second: your opinion is not irrelevant because these criteria are, as I said before, elementary and derived by common sense. We do not need reliable source for trivialities. Each editor needs to decide what is trivial and what probably is not. Otherwise we would also need reliable sources if we want to say 'The moon has a round shape'. If you have any doubt in e.g. the criteria "Atlantis was located on an island" which is trivial, please let me know. But I must say, in this case the discussion would start to get absurdly.

The WP:RS says: How reliable a source is, and the basis of its reliability, depends on the context. As a general rule, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made.

Since the scientific 'Atlantis' community is pretty small, we have to take --depends on the context-- into account.

The WP:RS also says: Neutral point of view (NPOV) is a fundamental Wikimedia principle and a cornerstone of Wikipedia. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles and all editors.

At this state the artice is not neutral and the NPOV is broken because very obscure theories are supported in this article and serious theories are deleted. Truemate (talk) 11:00, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

this might be of interest http://atlantis2008.conferences.gr/atlantis2008-topics.html. By they wat only they claim that this is a seriouos study, you need third party RS. Also have you looked at the list of participants?Slatersteven (talk) 13:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Of course we should give academic publications more weight than self-published ones, even for this topic. These Atlantis Conferences are apparently sponsored by the EIE and as such clearly notable. We shouldn't apply these 24 criteria, in order to avoid WP:SYNTH, but we should definitely give proper weight to those hypotheses forwarded or discussed in the conference proceedings. --dab (𒁳) 14:07, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

But how do we do that? It looks as though anyone could participate and give a paper, there are a number of 'independents', a 'tour guide' a Greek-Australian confectioner, and even those who have a University named under their name aren't necessarily academics, let alone academics in a relevant field. Dougweller (talk) 15:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, there are exactly four posibilities:

1: Delete the whole article (I think none of the hypotheses here have reliable sources if we follow Dougweller's definition, moreover, most of them do not have reliable source at all).

2: Accept all (even the obscure) hypotheses.

3: Accept only hypotheses, which were presented/published in notable conferences/notable media.

4: Use the 24 criteria filter (whereby I do not agree that this would violate WP:SYNTH, because it is only an representation of the hypotheses and therefore the text, which an reader expects to read here. Of course, the reader could derive conclusions from such a table, but whatever, he could do this also by reading the text (assuming the same weight is given to each hypothesis text, which, I think, is very difficult, ergo 'a priori' not neutral). BTW, the 24 criteria were just compiled for this purpose, install a tool for neutral measurement and to filter the obscure out.

I think 1) and 2) are inacceptable. We have to find a way inbetween, ergo 3) and/or 4).

Dougweller, you don't have to be an academic to write scientific papers. Even Einstein was not an academic. For sure, this can't be a criteria!

So what? Any other ideas? Truemate (talk) 22:42, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

'Scientific consensus' can only come from the mainstream scientific community. That's what the phrase means. It's very clear, by the way, that the journal Antiquity is a reliable source, but that's the best one I think and not typical. The question is how significant are they? Where have they been discussed? If no one's ever discussed them, that's easy. Then if they have been discussed, where, how often, etc. Dougweller (talk) 04:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi Dougweller, 'hypothesis' and 'scientific consensus' is a contradiction in terms. If there is 'scientific consensus' it isn't a hypothesis anymore. But even Einstein has no 100% 'scientific consensus' on his realivity theorie. I think, you'll never find 100% consensus on scientific theories. Thats science and it is good this way, because its anti-dogmatic and scientists were enabled to discuss alternative theories. This article is about location hypotheses of Atlantis. If there would be 'scientific consense' on any Atlantis location theorie, this article would make no sense anymore. But we are far away from this point and probably will never reach it. Therefore the article should give an overview of existing hypotheses. I think we can't support obscure hypotheses and ignore more reliable ones. This his highly unfair and violate neutral point of view.

The impact factor of journals and published papers are not necessarily reliable (see criticism and manipulation). Moreover, the more you pay for publishing (more pictures, more text, first page position etc.) the greater will be the impact factor. This is a known fact, even in pure scientific journals. If you have money you can 'buy' attention. But you are right, 'Scientific consensus' can only come from the mainstream scientific community. But we need to say 'mainstream scientific community, which is Atlantis-related'.

Once again, in this state the article is highly unfair. Very obscure hypotheses were supported (e.g. Atlantis Motherland and serious hypotheses are ignored (e.g. South Morocco or Atlantipedia (ok not a third party RS)], which were presented to the scientific Atlantis community. Other hypotheses, which have the same status 'presented and published' are also still present (e.g. Wickboldt's theorie).

@Dougweller and all other: I would like to ask, should we include the South-Morocco hypothesis or should we delete all other hypotheses of same or less reliable status? We need to decide in one or the other way. The whole article is far away from WP:NPOV

@all: Should we include the comparative 24 criteria table? Truemate (talk) 12:41, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

How are you definining 'reliable status'? You cite NPOV, how do you define 'significant'? And even within fringe subjects, there is notability. If something is widely discussed then it probably belongs here. If it's generally unmentioned, then it almost certainly doesn't belong here, whether or not it meets your 24 criteria. And I probably caused some confusion, I meant 'scientific community', not consensus, and by that I mean the community of historians, geologists and archaeologists. (And I don't see how a conference whose participants includes tour guides and confections is in any sense scientific.). Dougweller (talk) 13:36, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

As I said we have 4 choises. Delete all, allow all or something inbetween. The problem is how to define the rule for 'something in-between'. Can you provide a rule? My rule is simple: The hypothesis was presented in a scientific conference and/or published in a scientific journal. Thats how I would define 'reliable status' here. It is easy to implement. Anyway, you will hardly find secondary literature on any of these hypotheses yet. Wikipedia rules also say that editors have to take into account that the cycle of primary and secondary literature could take a while. Moreover, the 24 criteria could help filter obscure stuff (as the 4. choise). If something is widely discussed it does not mean it belongs here, think about "Erich von Däniken". Dougweller, how do you argue to keep Atlantis Motherland in the article? How do you argue to eliminate 'South Morocco' in the same step? What kind of fancy rule do you use here?

Once again:

@all: I would like to ask, should we include the South-Morocco hypothesis or should we delete all other hypotheses of same or less reliable status (means: presented in a scientific conference and/or published in a scientific journal)? We need to decide in one or the other way. The whole article is far away from WP:NPOV. And there is the need of a easy rule, also for future edits.

@all: Should we include the comparative 24 criteria table? This would be a more complex rule => work

Any other suggestions for a rule?

Truemate (talk) 15:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

look, the "scientific" (scholarly) consensus is that Atlantis is a fable made up by Plato (or Socrates). Any "location hypothesis" is already fringe scholarship. This is an article about notable fringe scholarship. Some publications have better pedigrees than others. It is ceratinly preferable to cite the proceedings of an actual conference than a bunch of leaflets photocopied by some wild-eyed crank. This is what you need to evaluate: is the publication self-published, or did it appear with a respectable publisher. Then apply WP:DUE. Never mind "fringe", because all of this is. Just look at the publisher. --dab (𒁳) 07:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I have had a deeper look at the different hypotheses in the article. I think many of these hypotheses are 'not reliable sourced'. But maybe I'm wrong in one or the other case? Sometimes I didn't found anything, sometimes I immediately stopped my search if I found a reference to a journal with horoscopes and similar stuff. Many of them have a reference to "a" book, but thats all. Others I classified as 'reliable', because they are very popular (e.g. Malta, Santorini and Antarctica), but I'm really astonished because I haven't found reliable scientific sources for only one of these hypotheses. I think, some hypotheses are reliable because of historical reasons. I concentrated my results in the following table. At the end of the table I added a section 'Northwest Africa', which is missing in the article.

Autor	pubishing year	published in/at	reliability/include/delete	comment
Andalusia
José Pellicer de Ossau y Tovar	1673	reliable source	notable	because of historical reasons
Georgeos Diaz-Montexano	-	no reliable source	not notable
Werner Wickboldt	2005	Milos Atlantis Conference	notable
Rainer W. Kühne	2004	Antiquity	notable
Sea of Azov
Eagle/Wind	-	no reliable source	not notable
Black Sea
Schoppe/Schoppe	2005	Milos Atlantis Conference	notable
Santorini
A very popular theorie. -> keep it as it is
Arundell	1885	Burns and Oates, Harvard	notable	because of historical reasons
Helike
Giovannini	1995	Museum Helveticum	notable
Katsonopoulou/Sote	?	?	notable?
Turkey
Peter James	-	reliable source	notable
Near Cyprus
Robert Sarmast	-	no reliable source	not notable	popular because of TV, but I couldn't find a scientific article about this Atlantis hyp. There are scienific articles about the natural geological origin of what S. ment to be artificial.
Middle East
Jaime Manuschevich	2005	Milos Atlantis Conference	notable
Malta
A very popular theorie, but:
Mifsud/Sultana/Ventura	-	is this reliable source?	notable?
Francis Galea	-	is this reliable source?	notable?
Zeitlmair	-	no reliable source	not notable
Sicily
Franke	2005	Milos Atlantis Conference	notable
Sardinia
Sergio Frau	-	reliable source?	notable?	It is said that there was an exhibition/conference about Sardinia at the Unesco, but I didn't find a confimation that this exhibition/speek/conference was Atlantis related.
Spartel Bank
Collina-Girard	-	didn't find this "Science Academy" article	notable?
Georgeos Diaz-Montexano	-	I don't not know what to do here, seems a little bit dodgy to me, he claims that this is his theorie. I suggest to keep it as it is.
Troy
Zangger	-	reliable source?	notable?
Azores Islands
A popular theorie. -> keep it as it is
Donnelly	-	reliable source	notable	because of historical reasons
Canary Islands, Madeira and Cape Verde
A popular theorie. -> keep it as it is
Saint-Vincent	1803	reliable source	notable	because of historical reasons
Cuba
Collins		-	no reliable source	not notable
Northern Spain
Ribero-Meneses	2005	Trabajos de Geología	notable
Irish Sea
Dunbavin	-	reliable source?	notable?
Great Britain
Russian team	1997	BBC news	notable?
Ireland
Erlingsson	-	reliable source?	notable?
Spence	-	reliable source?	notable?
Denmark
Herm	-	reliable source?	notable?
Finland
Bock	-	no reliable source	not notable
Sweden
Rudbeck	16xx	reliable source	notable	because of historical reasons
Antartica
Still a popular theorie (but geol. confuted). -> keep it as it is
Bolivia
Allen	2008	Milos Atlantis Conference	notable
Indonesia/Sundaland
Nunes dos Santos	?	reliable source?	notable?
Mexico
Matlock	-	no reliable source	not notable
NOT PRESENT IN THE ARTICLE
Northwest Africa section
Leo Frobenius	1930	reliable source/Encyclopedia Britannica, 1960	notable	also because of historical reasons
Berlioux	1883	reliable source, see article	notable	because of historical reasons
Michael Hübner	2008	Milos Atlantis Conference/ Institutum Canarium IC-Nachrichten Oct/2009	notable
Probably also Dominik Joseph Wölfel?

Any objections to delete the hypotheses marked as not notable and include the missing notable hypotheses? What to do with the hypotheses marked as "notable?" ? Truemate (talk) 19:19, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok, no objections yet? So I deleted the Sea of Azov hypothesis. I'll also delete all other obscure hypotheses. I also inserted the Morocco hypothesis in a new section 'Maghreb'. Probably a better name for this section would be North-West Africa? I will also add the Frobenius and Berlioux hypotheses to this section soon. Truemate (talk) 20:28, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I removed that, as I can't see any evidence that Hübner's self-published book and pdf files have any particular significance in the field enough to meet the criteria of WP:NPOV, very few Google hits, only 13, one of those is ebay, another his site, the 3rd this article. So, not notable as we define notability. Dougweller (talk) 21:04, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Your list shows an impressive amount of work, but I'm not sure what you mean by notable, you need to use the word the way Wikipedia uses it, see WP:NOTABLE. Sarmast and Peter James are notable. Just being at the Milos Conference doesn't make someone notable. Dougweller (talk) 21:06, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

There are references e.g. Instiutum Canarium, which is def. a scientific publication in a reliable source and additional in proceedings of the Atlantis conference (there are hypotheses with only this reference (or less) still present in the article). You did'nt argue, you just delete highhandedly one reliable hypothesis out of many, which are very obscure. Why? Which hypothesis do you want to protect? I'll find out. For sure, Google hits aren't a criteria. What fancy rule do you use for deleting? I undo your undo! Truemate (talk) 22:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok, apologies. Institutum Canarium looks ok, and needs a wikilink. Please stop being so aggressive. I don't want to protect any of these, and I agree with your removal.

Dougweller, I don't want to create an outward impression that I'm aggressive. Its just because I know that place in Morocco and I know that this archaeological site is exposed to massive damage and destruction by quarry companies. Thats the reason why I get a bit to emotional. I appologize. Probably it would be a good idea to cite from the 'destruction section' of the documention paper. But I'm uncertain if it belongs here? Truemate (talk) 21:33, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok, no problem. I don't think it belongs here but maybe the site should have its own article as an archaeological site (although I think any Atlantis suggestion should be minimal). Dougweller (talk) 05:06, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree, Peter James has reliable source. But I don't see this for Sarmast. The Sarmast article has many links to other scientific papers, and TV and other media fuss over this hypothesis, but there is definetly no scientific relaiable source for it (you'll only find links to his book). Btw Sarmast wrote on his own site "The second expedition on September of 2006 proved that the anomalies on and around the purported Acropolis Hill, situated in the middle of the rectangular "great plain" of Atlantis, are natural". Therefore he refuted his own hypothesis. I changed James' status to 'notable' and kept Sarmast's as is. I think Sarmast should be deleted from the article. Or is media fuss reliable? Probably it is a good idea to keep the table alive, to have a overview of frequently inserted 'not notable' hypotheses. Truemate (talk) 18:31, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I have to apologise. I should not be using the word notable, or rather notability doesn't determine content, only if we should have an article. My bad. The real issue is significance, see WP:NPOV, or rather how we interpret it. A media fuss usually makes something significant, for instance. Dougweller (talk) 18:48, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Hübner

Just a note to say that we can't add corroborating material, that is WP:OR. I deleted the last sentence from his article as it doesn't seem to come from Hübner, and it appears that "The semitic g-d-r means enclosure, fortification and sheep fold" doesn't either, is that correct? Dougweller (talk) 05:15, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, it is part of the [11] paper, section 2.2.1.11 RI11:

"The Tamazight word Gadir derives etymologically from the Semitic g-d-r, which means wall (Kossmann, TBP), fortification, enclosure (Vycichl, 1952) and sheep fold and, as a new hypothesis, also island in a figurative sense (see section 3.7 ). The meaning of enclosure, sheep fold corresponds to the Greek translation of the name Gadeiros (Crit. 114b) which is Eumelos = Rich in Sheep (Perseus Digital Library, 2008)." Truemate (talk) 17:30, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

It needs to be clear that he is using this then, I think. Thanks.Dougweller (talk) 18:44, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok, therefore I'll re-insert that sentence. Truemate (talk) 18:28, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Added a picture of the mentioned harbour remains Truemate (talk) 16:18, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Added a picture of the 'island of atlas' according to hübner's hypothesis Truemate (talk) 16:45, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Bernie Bamford West Madeira location

While browsing Google Earth, aeronautical engineer Bernie Bamford, found what he believed to be a huge man-made underwater site south-west from the Madeira Island. Archeologist of New York State University Dr. Charles Orser said: "The site is one of the most prominent places for the proposed location of Atlantis, as described by Plato. Even if it turns out to be geographical, this definitely deserves a closer look."

The source can be found here: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2255989.ece#ixzz0w4hVsYNd

But the coordinates in Google Maps are here: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=31.770208,-23.988647&spn=3.376099,4.938354&t=h&z=8

Leandro Dias user:leandrodias —Preceding undated comment added 03:22, 9 August 2010 (UTC).

Wow. That is freaking amazing. That square is about 60-80 miles on a side. Interesting to see what will come of it. Besides the obvious (that it was taken by faulty equipment, human error, incomplete mapping, or a geological oddity), the only thing I can think of that would cause that is an artificial structure that was sunk (which I consider impossible), or that the western african plate is lower than it used to be (a near impossibility for our time frame). Although there's a remote chance that maybe there was an abscess below that part of the plate and it collapsed, but I would expect that to be displayed in at least sediment records around the ocean or something. And the ocean level would have dropped significantly, and the destruction caused by a tidal wave of that size would leave traces. 98.127.168.159 (talk) 05:09, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

See [12] where it is shown to be an 'artifact' of the process of ocean-sounding. This isn't unusual. Dougweller (talk) 07:25, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

This should rather be included in the FOAF tales, urban legend or hoax article than here. Truemate (talk) 17:42, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

References

I was specifically looking at Malta, but going over the references section, it seems there are a lot of small fan sites (nothing from major news or academic institutions) and a whole lot from offline sources. The offline sources are hard to verify, and easy to fake. Additionally, offline sources could be made by an author that is not entirely reputable.

I think that the article needs to be locked for editing (since there shouldn't be many new hypothesis on the subject, and vital information can be posted on the discussion page) and the entire article needs a source scrub. 98.127.168.159 (talk) 04:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

That's not a reason we can protect the article, but the source issue is one that can be addressed. Would you like to be more specific? Dougweller (talk) 07:23, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

More reasonable videos

I suggest this weblink: [link removed, copyright violations]

Yes, it's my own channel, but that does not matter, since it is the best you can find in the whole web. It gathers especially several introductory video documentations on Plato's Atlantis. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 12:09, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

But it has what looks like copyright violations on it, and I see it's been reverted again by the bot. So, no, we can't use it unless you can satisfy all the provisions of WP:EL. Dougweller (talk) 12:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I do not depend on Wikipedia. Wikipedia depends on me and other content-providers. If Wikipedia is shooting in its own foot by not accepting this very valuable weblink, so let it go. I stop my efforts in adding this weblink here. And I laugh loudly about so many other much more silly and rule-violating weblinks accepted by Wikipedia. Why not removing them? --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 10:11, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Then remove them. Since you've replaced this and implicitly admitted the copyvio issue, I've warned you on your talk page and removed the link from here. Dougweller (talk) 12:11, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

The topic is closed for me. Pages are allowed here, not dependend on their conformity to rules, but whether Dougweller likes them or not. So please ask him before adding a page! My page didn't violate the rules, it maybe further-linked to copyrighted material, but it was not itself and directly. The usual game on Wikipedia: Who has the power over an article ...? - Topic closed. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 22:39, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Your page violates the rules. See discussion here [13] and WP:COPYVIO. It's not my policy, it's our policy. Dougweller (talk) 14:34, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Bolivia

Why are you removing information about the Bolivia/South America location? The page is about Atlantis Location Hypothesis, using “OR” and “promoting Jim Allen” is just an excuse for reducing the site which has the highest number of similarities to Plato’s description to a mere five lines, while allowing extended paragraphs to other sites which are equally “OR” or promoting the name of their proposer and have little correspondence to Plato’s text.

Wikipedia defines Original Research as “The term "original research" refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and stories—not already published by reliable sources".

The deleted entry included references to Wikipedia’s own entries as well as to original Spanish books identifying South America as Atlantis. So are you saying Wikipedia’s own pages are themselves “OR”? 94.196.228.254 (talk) 09:12, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

What happened to Neutral Point of View?

In a page about Atlantis hypotheses, don’t you think it relevant to include that South America was first identified as Atlantis by Spanish historians shortly after the conquest and identified as such on maps by well established European mapmakers of the period as mentioned on the deleted article, or do you wish to deny the public this information as well?

Yes, I am saying that we cannot use Wikipedia articles as references. And you can't use this article to argue for a particular location, it's just a list of suggested location with a brief bit about the reasoning behind it. There may well be problems with other parts of the article, in fact I'm sure there are. And you need to read WP:SYNTH. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 12:05, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Americas

I note there are different editions of both the Munster maps and the Sanson maps also with a variety of incorrect dates and attributions.

I checked the link inserted to the Sanson mapseller page, the comment “shows the Earth 200,000 years ago before its settlement by humans” seems to be the opinion of the mapseller. I see nothing on the actual map that states this, merely that it shows the “Atlantis Island” with reference to the Timaeus and Critias in the corners and the cartography is typical of the period in which it was made.

There is a better version of the map on the Portuguese version of the Wikipedia site http://pt.fantasia.wikia.com/wiki/Atl%C3%A2ntida

Zarate is slightly ambiguous stating that Atlantis included all of what is now call North and South America but also that people came to Peru from the island of Atlantis.

Gamboa is more specific describing a calculation of longitude to demonstrate that Atlantis began at the Straight of Gibraltar and extended to include all of South America including Peru with the sunken part being in the Atlantic Ocean… —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:Contributions/94.196.19.116|94.

I've removed your personal commentary concerning the Sanson map, see WP:NOR. I'm concerned that you consider the John Carter Brown Library, possibly the most important library in the world for material linked to the discovery of the Americas, to be a bookseller. I've also asked you to verify that your citations say what you've added, would you please provide the relevant quotations. You may be right but the sources I found just said land bridge. If he's ambiguous, perhaps we should make that clear. Dougweller (talk) 10:35, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, the previous link for the Sanson map went to the mapseller “Auction and Gallery, PAULUS SWAEN.COM” http://www.swaen.com/antique-map-of.php?id=2985 but I see you have now changed it to the John Carter Brown Library. All the same, I am curious to know where the figure of 200,000 years comes from, is it the opinion of whoever wrote the notes on the John Carter Brown page, or was it stated as such by the original mapmaker?

You may like to consider inserting an image of the map on the Hypotheses Location page and/or the main Atlantis page.

Here is part of the text of Zarate “The Discovery and History of Peru” ( trans by J.M. Cohen, Penguin Classics 1968) “no one will deny that the island of Atlantis began from the straits of Gibraltar or a little beyond Cadiz, and extended across that great expanse which from north to south and from east to west is larger than Africa and Asia combined. The islands mentioned by Plato as visited by traders are surely Hispaniola, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Jamaica and others in that region; and the mainland facing them is what we know today as the Tierra Firme and all its provinces, starting from the Magellan straits and running north to the land of Peru, the province of Popayan, Castilla de Oro, Veragua, Nicaragua, Guatemala, New Spain, the Seven Cities, Florida and the Cod islands, and running up from there to join Norway. Beyond all doubt, there is more land here than in all the populated earth known to us before its discovery. And it is not difficult to understand why it was not discovered before now by the Romans or other nations which at various times occupied Spain. For we must suppose that the seas remained so rough as to prevent navigation.” “I believe it was Plato's authority that led to the discovery of these lands, and that they can certainly be identified with the mainland of which he speaks. For they show all the signs that he attributes to his continent, particularly that of being close to the true sea, which is what we now properly call the Southern Sea” “I can see no difficulty in assuming that many peoples crossed by this route, both from the great island of Atlantis and from the other islands which were approached from it. They could have come to Peru either overland across the continent or, if this were too difficult, across the Southern Sea.”

Here is a part from Sarmiento de Gamboa’s “History of the Incas”, translated by Sir Clements Markham, The Hakluyt Society, Cambridge University Press, 1907 History of the Incas… III.DESCRIPTION OF THE ANCIENT ATLANTIC ISLAND. “The Atlantic Island began less than two leagues from the mouth of the strait… the Atlantic Island was larger than Asia and Africa. From this I deduce its size, which is incredible or at least immense. It would give the island 2300 leagues of longitude, that is from east to west. It would include and incorporate the Canary Islands which, according to this calculation, would be part of it, and from thence the land trended south-west. As regards the south, it would extend rather more to the south and south-south-west, finally following the route by which we go when we sail from Spain to the Indies, forming a continent or main land with these western Indies of Castille, joining on to them by the parts stretching south-west, and west-south-west, a little more or less from the Canaries. Thus there was sea on one side and on the other of this land, that is on the north and south, and the Indies united with it, and they were all one. The proof of this is that if the Atlantic Island had 2300 leagues of longitude, and the distance of Cadiz to the mouth of the river Marañon or Orellana and Trinidad, on the coast of Brazil, is, not more than 1000, 900, or 1100 leagues, being the part where this land joined to America, it clearly appears that, to complete the complement of 2300 leagues, we have to include in the computation all the rest of the land from the mouth of the Marañon and Brazil to the South Sea, which is what they now call America.” “From all this it may be inferred that the Indies of Castille formed a continent with the Atlantic Island, and consequently that the same Atlantic Island, which extended from Cadiz over the sea we traverse to the Indies, and which all cosmographers call the Atlantic Ocean because the Atlantic Island was in it, over which we now navigate, was land in ancient times.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.196.16.106 (talk) 11:56, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for these. It would be interesting to know more about the 200,000 years before humans comment came from, but the source meets our criteria at WP:RS. I'll look at your post above more later on when I have time. Dougweller (talk) 12:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Some more from Samiento de Gamboa on “Atlanticas”… (On the division of the World into five parts by geographers)... The fifth part is or was called the Atlantic Island, as famous as extensive, and which exceeded all the others, each one by itself, and even some joined together. The inhabitants of it and their description will be treated of, because this is the land, or at least part of it, of these western Indies of Castille.

III. DESCRIPTION OF THE ANCIENT ATLANTIC ISLAND. “The cosmographers do not write of this ancient Atlantic Island because there was no memory, when they wrote, of its very rich commercial prosperity in the second, and perhaps in the first age. But from what the divine Plato tells us and from the vestiges we see which agree with what we read, we can not only say where it was and where parts of it were, as seen in our time, but we can describe it almost exactly, its grandeur and position.”

V. INHABITANTS OF THE ATLANTIC ISLAND. “I now proceed to our principal point, which is to establish the conclusion that as these people (of Atlantis) carried their banners and trophies into Europe and Africa which are not contiguous, they must have overrun the Indies of Castille and peopled them, being part of the same main land.”

VI. THE FABLE OF THE ORIGIN OF THESE BARBAROUS INDIANS OF PERU, ACCORDING TO THEIR BLIND OPINIONS. “One thing is believed among all the nations of these parts, (Peru) for they all speak generally and as well known of the general flood which they call _uñu pachacuti_. From this we may clearly understand that if, in these parts they have a tradition of the great flood, this great mass of the floating islands which they afterwards called the Atlanticas, and now the Indies of Castille or America must have begun to receive a population immediately after the flood,…” “This must have been done by divine Providence, through the first people coming over the land of the Atlantic Island, which was joined to this, as has been already said.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.196.54.14 (talk) 16:44, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Middle eastern map

Hi. Should we include this map in the article? It places the Biblical placenames (Documentary hypothesis) of Caphtorim and the Philistines underwater in the eastern Mediterranean Sea. Is it suitable for one of the current mentions of Atlantis? Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 21:47, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Archaeological support for the Andalusian location

This news item provides some information on excavations of a buried city in one possible Atlantean location. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:03, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Tartessos?

Hi. Archaeologists have found relics near the Guadalquivir River mouth in Spain[14] and this information could be added to the "Southern Spain" hypothesis as well as the map. Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 02:14, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

err, yes. That's what I said, yesterday. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:38, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Caveat emptor - let's be cautious about these new claims

Looks like they are getting a lot of publicity, but it's concerning that Freund suggests the Atlanteans may have founded civilization [15]. See also Eric Cline's review of a booklet of his [16]. Freund and his colleagues are advisors to Simcha Jacobovici [17]. Dougweller (talk) 14:53, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I see I'm not the only one to think this is the same site as Kühne's, see [18]. Dougweller (talk) 15:04, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

hmmm, but the difference here, and the reason it has received actual, notable media coverage, is that it is based on real scientific surveys, and actual data and evidence, which were analyzed by professionals. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:12, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

As I've replied elsewhere, it's not up to us to pronounce on 'real science'. Sarmast made similar claims, as have others, many of which have been debunked. It got media coverage because Atlantis always does, and National Geographic loves this stuff, it makes money for them. When geologists and archaeologists comment on this we can add that, meanwhile we should not add our personal commentary. Dougweller (talk) 15:27, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely. This is a buried city in an Atlantean candidate location. It's interesting as a result of that (and in its own right) but no one can say whether it is Atlantis or not in the absence of compelling evidence. And Wikipedia certainly shouldn't claim that this city is definitely Atlantis. However given the topic of this article, there is nothing wrong with stating that this particular location does contain a buried city. -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:41, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I hear your point, but we are simply reflecting the widespread, notable media coverage which does depict this as a genuine hypothesis for Atlantis. there is much basis in Wikipedia procedures for us to use that as a valid basis. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:45, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Derek, would you also please see the discussion at Atlantis on whether we can effectively call this 'real science'. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 15:54, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Doug, it's difficult to call anything connected with Atlantis 'real science'. If that were Wikipedia's sole criteria for inclusion, we'd have to remove a lot of the current Atlantean articles. Notability is the criterion to use here. But I have no problem with your call to be cautious about these claims. It never does any harm to wait and see what arises. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:14, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree entirely. It's the edit at Atlantis reverted here for discussion which said "A very small number of theories are based on scientific surveys and empirical data which was analyzed by experts with professional credentials" among other things that I was unhappy about. Dougweller (talk) 16:18, 14 March 2011 (UTC):

Dismissed by the Spanish researchers working on the site. [19] - looks like it's Freund's own film that National Geographic showed. Dougweller (talk) 12:21, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Spanish team

Just removed this, but I think it can be replaced using [20] so that there is more context. Dougweller (talk) 17:23, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

The Tartessos claims are included under Andalucia in the "Mediterranean" section. They are outside the Mediterranean - shouldn't that section be moved? Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:16, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

In the absence of any comment I've now clarified this basic geographical point in the text. Tartessos is not "in" the Mediterranean, it is beyond it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:19, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Atlantipedia

Whoever the idiot is who keeps removing Atlantipedia, please stop it. It's a highly useful and legitimate site. Unlike ATlantis ARchives which is is out of date and used solely as a vehicle to promote Andy McDermott's novels. —Preceding unsigned comment added by76.25.6.27 (talk) 13:16, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't here to promote websites. The site has an Alexia rating of 12,472,127 and has links from 4 sits as I recall. It's also a personal website. It doesn't belong here - you are right about Atlantis archives, I've already removed several sites that are already linked, blogs, etc but missed that one. So I'll remove it as well as atlantipedia. You can appeal at WP:ELN if you think it meets our criteria and should be here. It's a bad idea to call editor's names, and my reasons were given in my edit summary —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 13:40, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

^This is hidden from the page view for some reason, I don't know why, click edit to see what I mean. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 13:37, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

That was the result of erroneous wikicode for hidden text. I've fixed it. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:57, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Mongolia?

Now I am pretty sure that one of the suggested locations in this incredibly lulzy topic was Mongolia, yet I see no info here on this page. Why? By the way, I just finished reading and closely examining Ulf Erlingsson's "book" Atlantis from a Gerographer's Perspective. I don't think I've ever read a more unscientific piece of garbage in my entire life. Anything else need to be added to his entry? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 02:36, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Atlantis Found?

It should be noted that a Times article (Newsweek?) mentions Archealologists using satilite imagery revealed a "three-ringed foundation" approximate to the location where Plato described. 108.38.126.227 (talk) 03:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

You mean that silly story about Simcha Jacobavici (not an archaeologist) finding a sandbar in Spain? Isn't that covered already? Also, that location is wrong. Plato said in front of the Pillars of Heracles, he meant right in front of the Strait of Gibraltar (aka the Pillars of Heracles). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 11:03, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Did Plato tell you that? Quite an extraordinary claim to know what Plato meant when a couple of millennia worth of academics have failed to agree on what he meant. Insipid qualifiers like "silly" are also impolite and serve only to frighten away people who have as much right as you to be here. Shame on you. As I understand it, the findings of the team are still awaiting publication later this year so either confirmation or refutation can wait until then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.184.143 (talk) 04:15, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

World Maps?

If any serious effort to locate Atlantis is really out there, one of the primary thinks that must be established is what either Solon or the Egyptians knew about the world. Some reference to the "ancient world maps" article seems prudent. To this I will add that Anaximander (the title holder for 2nd oldest known "world map" author) was contemporary to Solon. It is entirely possible that the "Pillars of Hercules" known to Solon differed from what Anaximander knew. (Or, since we only have reconstructed maps from posthumously translated texts, even Anaximander may not have known our Straits of Gibraltar as the "Pillars of Hercules") The Sardinia theory makes the most sense in the context of an alternate "Pillars of Hercules" location...

The two things to begin a hunt for the "real" Atlantis: The pillars of Sais Egypt and Anaximander's Map.

Timeline anchors?

Since chariots are referred to in the legend, theories before 2000 BC (where the origin of chariot culture began above the Black Sea) are invalidated unless chariots were added as a Hellenism by Plato (etc). (Removing chariot culture would also remove the iconic winged horses that accompanied the statue of Poseidon and therefore Atlantis would be short many of the attributes that make it distinct according to the account.)

North Africa addition

I am impressed by Ulrich Hofmann's analysis of the mythology of Lake Tritonis (which he locates in the Chott el Jerid of Algerian and Tunisia) and their relation to the Gulf of Gabes. We have yet to see such a rational explanation for the "impassible muddy ocean" that Plato describes as "still existing" at least as of the time of Solon. Added to the hierarchical constraint data from Michael Hubner this region is very compelling. http://www.atlantis-scout.de/HofmannU_2005_AtlantisBronzeAgeMetropolisNorthAfrica.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.150.182.2 (talk) 05:14, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

The following location:

http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=33.96187,9.80800&z=17&t=S&marker0=33.70000%2C8.43000%2CChott%20el%20Djerid&marker1=33.96187%2C9.80800%2C6.9%20km%20N%20of%20El%20Hamma

N 33.96187 E 9.80800

6.9 km N of El Hamma, 29.8 km WxNW of Gabès, 44.8 km SW of Skhira

has an annular land feature and apparently several man-made sites that look like the relics of old city sections.

This area is still designated as a part of a water feature in topographic maps.

It is in close proximity to Gafsa which used to be called Capsa (see) that was founded by the "Libyan Hercules" and lies between two mountains... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.196.244.10 (talk) 23:23, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Would this related wiki article about Paul Borchardt who also proposed Tunisia as the location be notable enough:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Borchardt

? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.196.244.10 (talk) 20:39, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

About the Minoan theory

The following text in the theory of Thera is incorrect: "The ancient Greek for "between" and "larger" are easily confused in transcription and translation, so "larger than Europe and Libya," might have originally read "between Europe and Libya," which is how Classical Greeks would have described Thera and Crete."

Plato's description never says "Europe and Libya" (whatever is the previous adverb), but "Asia and Libya". I ignore if this is a mistake or a intended and biased invention, and so it must be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.225.1.28 (talk) 16:32, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

As I saw, this is already corrected. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 16:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Plato's atlantida nesos as the Island of Meroe in North Sudan (ancient Land of Kush)

Please can you read my article (in three parts) on my web site : http://www.antiqua91.fr/atlantis_en.html and add my hypothesis among this long list of already proposed locations. I made this communication for the first time in Athens 2008 Second International Conference "Atlantis : Searching for a lost land." T.G.86.69.146.224 (talk) 14:54, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Two articles or Two "Sections"

I think that this article aught to be broken into two main areas:

• 1) Ice Age Atlantis (literalism)
• 2) Bronze Age Atlantis (interpretive)

The latter being more inherently plausible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.196.244.10 (talk) 08:20, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Review of weblinks

I just was not allowed to add my weblink collection and saw, that even atlantipedia is not allowed, here, because of several reasons, see above. So I just made a review on all weblinks and removed all weblinks, which do not fit the pattern and arguments mentioned in the talks above. As far as I can see, only the conference weblinks can fulfill the criteria from above. Maybe, this will help re-thinking the principles for the weblinks on this page. If you want to re-add a link, give a reason. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 23:02, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

We talk of these weblinks:

Good but forbidden, because not good enough (according to above):

PS Added: Alexa pagerank (in millions) and further comments:

• Atlantipedia _____3,7 relativly good although not in wikipedia; much better now than in April 2011 (see above)
• Systematic Weblink Collection _____22,6 (reasons to add this page: See below)
• International Conference Atlantis 2011 , Santorini/Greece _____2,8 relativly good although not in wikipedia

Not good enough (according to above), but were on the page

• Atlantis article from about.com _____0,2 (skeptic - with eye-catching advertisments)
• The Atlantis Archives _____15,8 low rank although in wikipedia / and: eye-catching advertisments!
• Lost-civilizations.net _____0,8
• Atlantis: No way, No how, No where" — Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal _____0,004 (skeptic - with eye-catching advertisments)
• Skeptics dictionary _____0,006 (skeptic - only Google advertisments, most factual, with further skeptic weblinks)

• Antarctica was Atlantis _____0,7
• Atlantis in the Atlantic based on writings of Helena Blavatsky _____0,7
• Plato's Atlantis: an Iberian-Mauretanian Emporium. The Metropolis before of the mouth of Gibraltar _____24,5 (low rank although in wikipedia)
• Indonesia/Sundaland was Atlantis - Prof. Arysio Nunes Santos' website _____1,1
• Atlantis in Israel _____no data
• Atlantis-Bakhu _____no data
• Atlantis sank beneath the Sea of Azov _____8,6

• ANSA News, "Archaeology: Search for Tartessos-Atlantis in southern Spain," July 17, 2007.
• BBC News, "Tsunami clue to 'Atlantis' found," August 15, 2005.
• BBC News, "Have scientists really found the lost city of Atlantis?," November 15, 2004.
• BBC News, "Atlantis 'obviously near Gibraltar'," September 20, 2001.

Suggestion for criteria

• Relevance: Does the page provide information, other pages do not provide?
• Quality: Does the page provide information of a "higher level"?

NB: What is a "higher level" will always be in doubt.

To ask for scientific level provides no clue in correspondance to the topic of this article, simply because most scientists doubt Atlantis at all, whereas some scientists (real scientists!) suggested location hypotheses, which are clearly not true.

So it will always be a question of discussion, which weblink is "good".

• Public attention: Often contrary to quality, but Wikipedia has to show the world, as it is, especially in this article.
• Scientific attention: Rarely given in this context, but sometimes, it is. Cf. Google Scholar and others.
• Helpfulness: Does it help the reader?

NB: If no reasonable and willing and quickly proceeding discussion starts here, soon, I will consider the changes to be accepted and add the weblinks resp. delete some weblinks.

Suggestions to add pages

General pages:

• International Conference Atlantis 2011 , Santorini/Greece _____2,8 Mio. rank. No advertisments.

The conferences clearly have to be mentioned, be they considered "good" or "bad". They are the most striking fact on the search of Atlantis.

• Atlantipedia.ie _____3,7 Mio. rank. No advertisments.

Atlantipedia is the best provider of information on ongoing Atlantis search. There is no better one.

• Atlantipedia.com _____13,4 Mio. rank. Eye-catching advertisments.

Another Portal on Atlantis.

• Systematic Weblink Collection _____22,6 Mio. rank. No advertisments.

This weblink collection

• has by far the most weblinks on Atlantis
• is maintained, and no double weblinks;
• non-existence hypotheses are put first, mystic hypotheses last.
• Its systematic approach in categories and description fields ensures a high level of information.
• Additionally Wikipedia covers 90% of all existing pages by this single weblink. Thus, it will be easier for Wikipedia to reject further weblinks by the argument, that they are contained, here, already - respectively, that everybody is invited to suggest additions to this systematic weblink collection, instead of spamming Wikipedia.
• There are no advertisments on this page, in contrary to most of the other weblinks already there.

Yes, it is my page, but there are good reasons to add it.

Then, it makes sense to add some example weblinks to example hypotheses, e.g. the following (not important which one, but only few):

• Atlantis-Bakhu in Northern Africa
• Atlantis in Israel
• Atlantis in the Sea of Azov
• Atlantis before the mouth of Gibraltar

Suggestion hidden text

The following hidden text exists already on the page:

There are hundreds of Atlantis websites

some of which advocate a particular view of

Atlantis. Before adding another link, please

consider whether the particular hypothesis

you support has been adequately covered.

I suggest to replace it by the following hidden text:

CAUTION: Before adding a new weblink consider the following:

(a) There are thousands of pages on certain Atlantis hypotheses.

Naturally Wikipedia canot display all of them, but only very very few!

(b) There are thousands of general pages on Atlantis.

But only few of them reach a high level of quality.

THEREFORE: Do not just add a weblink, but go to talk page first!

If the weblink is not accepted:

(a) You can try to add a weblink into one of the few pages linked by Wikipedia.

(b) You can try to mention the hypothesis within the article's text and add a footnote with the weblink.

Further comments

Headlines: Can be shortened, in order to clarify the meaning.

• First pages with general information. No pages on single theories.
• Then pages on certain theories.

--Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 19:57, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Review: Better division of chapters

After closing the weblink review we can start another useful review:

Problems:

(1) There are two big chapters full of subchapters, and some small chapters with partly only one subchapter.

(2) The division of chapters does not always group hypotheses together, which are related, and do not reflect the idea behind the hypotheses.

Suggested Solution:

Following new main chapters are suggested,

which bring together hypotheses based on similar ideas, and grouping them in a more equal distribution on several chapters:

(Final titles to be discussed.)

• Near to Egypt: Greece & West of Greece (Thera, Helike, Cyprus, Malta, Sardinia etc.).
• Near to Egypt: East of Egypt & Greece (Turkey, Black Sea, Middle East).
• Near to Gibraltar (Spain, Morocco, Spartel, Madeira).
• Atlantic Ocean: North (Britain, Ireland, Denmark, Sweden).
• Atlantic Ocean: West (Azores, Canaries, Donnelly).
• The Americas.
• Other.

Pease add your thoughts on this! --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 19:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Sea of Azov

I removed this section as the sourcing was poor, consisting of one unreliable source and one primary source. Please see WP:PRIMARY, WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:44, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

And the primary source is self-published. The editor repeatedly adding this is a WP:SPA and taking into consideration the amount of detail added it looks promotional. Dougweller (talk) 14:31, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

This is totally false! that there could be no confusion between "greater than" and "in the center or middle of"

This is totally false! Anyone with minimal knowledge of Greek palaeography, knowing full well that neither in Plato's time or the time of Solon, the Greek Z, word meizon, "greater than," was never equal to the Greek S, or sigma. Both letters were written always very different,at least different enough so that there is no possibility of confusing the word Meizwn with the other inn, "in the midst of, in the middle, in the center." It is also true that Crete was described as being located in "the middle of Libya and Asia." That is a tremendous blunder alsobecause Asia began at the border with Egypt, Libya, therefore, Crete could only have said that it was in the middle of Libya and Europe, but never was in the middle between Libya and Asia. That's why no one cites sources about it, because are not exist! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.156.18.83 (talk) 07:02, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Please provide reliable sources to support your opinions. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:07, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Mexico

Deleted the entire section as the links were to a self published book and an advert/blog for that book. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Gene_Matlock for more info on the author. The book also has, at the time of writing, only received 3 reviews on Amazon in over a decade (one of which is worth reading for the critical panning it gives this work) DoubleDoubleDouble (talk) 03:08, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Self-published and not a significant view, see WP:UNDUE. I see it's been replaced, I'll go and remove it. Dougweller (talk) 08:53, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Reported Underwater Pyramid Off Azores Islands

Recently, uncorroborated and unsubstantiated claims about an undersea pyramid being found off the coast the Azores island appeared recently in new stories. The Portuguese public television channel (RTP1) reported on September 23, 2013 that an underwater pyramid had been found by a sports fisherman looking for fish. He reported the pyramid to be 60 meters tall, 90 meters wide, and its summit at a depth of 40 meters. This alleged pyramid is discussed in Terceira: Subaquatic pyramidal shaped structure found – Azores in the September 19, 2013 Portuguese American Journal. More recently, the Instituto Hidrográfico reported on its web page, Avaliação da Marinha à “Pirâmide Subaquática” ao Largo da Ilha Terceira, that a review of existing bathymetric data by the Portuguese Navy indicates that the fisherman's data and interpretation are erroneous and that the pyramid is only a natural submarine mountain. Another video report is Marinha nega pirâmide no mar dos Açores (Vídeo). It is quite clear that recent news reports about a pyramid being found off of the Azores Islands are too unreliable to be acceptable as Wikipedia source material and evidence of the Azores being Atlantis. Paul H. (talk) 02:45, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Why it can’t have been in Finland

I think the idea of Atlantis being in Finland needs to be debunked, too. Regardless what Hollywood may fool you to believe the forces of nature don’t act selectively. Suppose the Gulf Stream had warmed a place in the Baltic Sea near present-day Finland enough to stay ice-free throughout the last Ice Age. If so, almost all of the Nordic and Baltic countries south of the same latitude would have remained ice-free as well. All of Fennoscandia south of 58º N, almost all of Denmark, much of northern Germany, all of northern Poland, all of the Baltic countries and adjacent parts of Russia and Belarus show signs of having been ice-covered during the past 100,000 years. Climatologically, you can’t have a small area able to sustain humans sounded on all sides by ice.

In reality, only three small areas in western Scandinavia remained ice-free throughout the Ice Age. One was the south-western corner of Jutland which the ice never reached. To the people living in the area when the ice was the largest it would have looked like a stretch of higher ground between the ice to the east and Doggerland to the West. Another consisted of the highest peaks of the Scandes Mountains which would have stuck up as nunataks. These would have had too little vegetation to sustain any humans, much less a vivid human population. The third was the westernmost coast of present-day Norway. It would have resembled the south-western coast of Greenland when the Vikings settled there. This means mostly tundra with a few groves of small trees in sheltered places. Cro-Magnons could have reached this inhabitable coast by boat from Doggerland. When the Scandinavian and British ice sheet merged these could have become isolated from the rest of humanity. Yet their isolation would probably have lead tom their extinction due to loosing the technology needed to survive the hash climate. (The ground stayed snow-covered six months a year.) They might even have died out due to inbreeding before that.

2015-01-03 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.158.174 (talk) 20:03, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi, the article isn't for saying these are likely places for a mythical continent, but rather listing the various misguided hypotheses about the location of something that likely never actually existed in the first place (in my opinion as an archaeologist which is irrelevant to the article and its improvement). That's its only real purpose. As well, Wikipedia doesn't allow for inclusions of conclusions reached by editors on Wikipedia as it violates the policy against original research. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 15 Tevet 5775 22:50, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

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January National Geographic show (which claimed Judaism originated in Atlantis)

See this review. I'm removing the current poorly written and promotional edit which is simply pushing fringe ideas. If anyone wishes to replace it with one just listing the locations mentioned, maybe the idea that Judaism has an origin in Atlantis, have fun. Doug Weller talk 17:05, 5 February 2017 (UTC).

Wikipedia is now a publication-voice of antisemitism? Really? --88.11.159.198 (talk) 18:11, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

No, actually, that isn't even close to what Doug was saying. He is indicating that the material is poorly written and obviously promotional of a recent program aired in January. There is also the question of the amount of space given the material. If the program itself meets notability standards as per WP:NOTABILITY, I might suggest that someone create an article on it first, including the bulk of the data, which could then be linked to here. John Carter (talk) 18:47, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. This is obviously the same person as the earlier one with a different IP, identical edits and geolocation. Doug Weller talk 19:03, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I think the previous IP editor here even broke WP:3RR. Unfortunately, I don't know if that is enough for any sort of sanctions, as the newer address has only done something twice to date. John Carter (talk) 19:09, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Treat them as the same editor. Maybe a warning? Doug Weller talk 20:10, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

... or go for temporary semi-protection of the article against IP edits, perhaps? Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:00, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

If it gets worse. I won't do it as I'm too involved. Doug Weller talk 21:06, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

This is all kicking off again. I'll revert. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:11, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

National Geographic documentaries

In 2011 Simcha Jacobovici, involved in the production of a documentary on Richard Freund's work for the National Geographic Channel, stated that the biblical Tarshish was Atlantis, and that "Atlantis was hiding in the Tanach".

In 29/1/2017 was release the broadcasting of a new documentary "Atlantis Rising" in National Geographic Channel concerning Atlantis in the Atlantic and colonies in Mediterranean. The documentary has been produced for James Cameron and filmed for Simcha Jacobovici in various places of the Mediterranean (Sardinia, Malta, Santorini), Spain (Cadiz, Huelva, Seville, Jaen, Ciudad Real, Badajoz, and underwater sites in the Gulf of Cadiz) and in the Azores Islands. Robert Ishoy, the writer Charles Pellegrino, the azorean proffesor, Felix Rodrigues, the Dr. Richard Freund and the spanish atlantologist Georgeos Díaz-Montexano has already been interviewed in connection with this production. The documentary show that are the Richard Freund and Diaz-Montexano's arguments and discoveries the principal hypotesis of work, ie, that Atlantis it was an island situated in front of Iberia and Morocco (or in Doñana natural park), with the easternmost part of the Atlantis begining on the Gulf of Cadiz, before Gibraltar, and which it was a Chalcolithic civilization which flourished until the end of the Bronze Age, while that Sardinian, Malta, Sicily and other Mediterranean sites vinculated to Atlantis by some authors, would be colonies.

Please, this is relevant for Wikpiedia readers --80.26.235.207 (talk) 23:33, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

References

Sardinia

Someone has twice added a paragraph in Sardinia, including the implausible claim that "around 1200 BC ... the lager part of the island of Sardinia sank in the sea". The paragraph has no references. Such material does not belong in Wikipedia unless reliable published references can be found to support it. I have removed it again. Maproom (talk) 10:20, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

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