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August 17

Proof of Identity Documents

I've been asked to show someone some documents as proof of my identity, but on some of them - my National Insurance Card, Birth Certificate for example, have on them in bold capital letters "This is not proof of identity".
So my question is how can someone use something as ID when it says on it it is not or cannot be used as ID ?Scotius (talk) 11:37, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Simple – they can't. The only valid proof of ID is a passport or other national ID card. --Viennese Waltz 11:56, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It would help if we knew which authority in which country was asking for "proof of identity". --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:17, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you believe that documents which are explicitly marked as "NOT proof of identity", have any relevance to proof of identity? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 12:20, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Many companies etc. accept them as proof of identity regardless of this disclaimer, which probably make people think they actually are proof of identity. 77.218.255.248 (talk) 12:37, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The country is the UK & I've been asked by the bank, various people for interviews & for to enroll on various training courses.
I just assumed that if the disclaimer is on the ID for a reason. Scotius (talk) 12:53, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ah OK. Surprised they've asked you for a National Insurance card, rather than number. Most people ^{[citation needed]} don't have a card; certainly I lost mine 20+ years ago and don't think I've ever been asked for it, thank goodness. I think you're saying this is when asked by prospective employers. They're more likely to be assessing your eligibility to work in the UK than your identity. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:25, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In the UK there is now a general requirement for a form of ID with a photo (hence a passport or a modern photo driving licence - though there are others that can be obtained). It is too easy to obtain (or forge) documents without a photo, and then present them as proof of identity - so you now need to show something with a photo that can be compared with your actual face. Wymspen (talk) 14:40, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The disclaimer on things like school id cards and birth certificates let's you know that the agency who issued it isn't prepared to vouch for you. They can't meet whatever standard the law requires for "Identification", so they make sure to say so. They're protecting themselves, basically.

So why do places accept those as ID? It's a trade-off between how strong they need the proof to be, versus how many legit customers they want to turn away.

The local library, which is mostly concerned with not turning anybody away, will take almost anything with your name on it. They're not worried about serious scammers, the very weak id requirement is just to stop honest people from telling fibs.

The bank, on the other hand, would prefer to send you home empty handed rather than give your money to the wrong person. If you need a new bank card printed, expect them to be rather strict about what counts as ID.

If you're trying to enter a defense manufacturing facility where they handle uranium, you can expect them to be very strict about what kind of ID they want. They'd rather send a thousand people home empty-handed than let in one guy who shouldn't be there.

It's not about a bright line between proof/not-proof. It's about trade-offs. ApLundell (talk) 14:53, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is no blanket "proof of identity" which is acceptable in all context. The organization which needs such proof will establish which guidelines they choose to be acceptable "proof of identity" Some accept any government-issued picture ID, some require multiple forms, some accept passports only, etc. etc. Literally, the ONLY way to find out what is an acceptable form of ID is to ask whoever needs to see that ID. They will tell you. --Jayron 32 14:58, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That wasn't the OP's question. He already knows that the documents he mentions are acceptable forms of ID to some organizations. What he's asking is why they are acceptable to those organizations. --Viennese Waltz 15:14, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a law prohibiting those organizations from using those items as forms of ID? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:47, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No. The Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) which in the UK checks whether people have anything in their past which might make them unsuitable to work with children or vulnerable adults also accepts a range of documents for identification. In the UK, there is no requirement for anybody to hold either a passport or a driving licence as long as you don't want to go abroad or drive a motor vehicle. I suspect that there are plenty of people who possess neither. Therefore, identity can be established by using a number of other documents, those accepted by the DBS are listed here. So to satisfy the DBS you have to supply several documents, one of which is ideally a "Primary identity document" (passport, driving licence etc) but if you don't have these, then there are a range of other ones you can use including a bank statement or a telephone bill, but none of them is acceptable in isolation. I see from that DBS link that a National Insurance Card is not now on the list, but I can assure you that it was until fairly recently. So the answer is that these documents on their own are not proof of identity, but they can be used together with other documents if there is nothing better. Attempts to introduce a British national identity card foundered in 2010 on grounds of expense and civil rights issues. [1] Alansplodge (talk) 18:50, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Depending on the importance of the identification, different standards would apply. If somebody wants to withdraw all the money from your bank account, one would hope the bank would insist on proper ID. On the other hand, if you've earned your free cup of coffee after buying 10 (and recording them in the vendor's rewards program), then any ID requirement may be quite minimal. There's 2 reasons for this. First, if somebody fraudulently gets a free cup of coffee, it's no big deal, and also it can be assumed that nobody would procure phoney ID in your name just to get a cup of coffee. StuRat (talk) 07:31, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My point is that many British people will not have "proper ID" as they are not required to have it. Therefore, a portfolio of lesser documents can serve instead, exactly which ones will be specified in advance. Alansplodge (talk) 12:26, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

August 19

How exactly do I contribute to society by saving money in the bank?

Normally someone gets paid because they work in a job, i.e. they contribute to society. I get paid by saving money in a bank as the bank pays interest on my savings. What exactly am I being paid for? It doesn't feel that I'm doing anything to better society.

The bank lends the money I deposit to other people. That enables them to buy things they otherwise couldn't afford... in the near term. But ultimately they have to pay back the debt plus interest, so they can actually afford less in the long term. Is it just that I'm being paid to satisfy people's impatient desires? It doesn't seem that I'm contributing to long-term economic growth, and it seems that I may even be hurting it.

I don't know anything about economics. PeterPresent (talk) 03:07, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The loans from the bank typically are used to buy stuff, which in turn goes to to the company that produces stuff, which pays salaries, etc. See: ~~trickle down economics~~→ Supply-side economics. — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:D4EC:691A:1EDC:835D 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:D4EC:691A:1EDC:835D (talk) 03:30, 19 August 2017 (UTC) - P.s: there must be a better link, but I don't know what it is.[reply]

Savings are supposed to be there for you when you need them. Presumably this helps society by not having to bail you out of a jam. Banks are required to have a certain proportion of savings on hand to make loans. Perhaps the idea is that there is an optimal savings rate for individuals, banks and society that will even out economic fluctuations. But one wonders if that rate is consistent/compatible between the three. Abductive (reasoning) 04:17, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I get the impression that the economics is complicated. I have a theory: by choosing to save money in the bank, I am doing my part to lower the interest rate slightly, just like choosing to sell a good is doing my part to lower that good's price slightly (typically explained in terms of a supply and demand diagram, and an increase in supply). Now, somehow, the reduced interest rate is good for the economy, and that's how I contribute to society. I say "somehow" because I am hazy on that part, but it does seem to be implied by the IS curve. PeterPresent (talk) 04:38, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, if you deposit your excess cash in my bank account, I'd be glad to spend it all in order to help the local economy.

— 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:D4EC:691A:1EDC:835D (talk) 05:25, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

One error in the OP's and the first couple of responders' thinking is that loans issued by banks are solely for personal consumption. These types of loan indeed do not contribute a whole lot to collective wealth. However, a larger portion of the money deposited in banks is normally loaned to businesses for investment, which is essential to economic growth. Money loaned for the purchase of real estate also helps to increase the collective wealth, by increasing the housing stock and the quality of buildings in a given location. Now, there is always a possible downside, because such loans can also contribute to speculative bubbles. However, in a properly regulated capitalist economy, the saving rate is considered a major contributor to economic growth and prosperity, as savings that are recycled into the economy by banks contribute to ensuring that funds that are not immediately required are put to a more effective use than they would be if they were simply kept stuffed in a mattress somewhere, to use a common image. Because your act of depositing money in a bank helps the collectivity get richer, you receive a benefit, in the form of interest (or a share of profits, depending on the banking model). Xuxl (talk) 13:46, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The (wildly simplified) function of a lending bank is financial intermediation. It collects funds from those with a surplus, and directs it via loans to those with a shortage. For the borrower, this allows her to invest or consume now, without having to first save up the money. For the depositor, it provides a safe place where funds may attract interest (i.e., unearned) income. The contribution to society is the redistribution of resources (money) from places of plenty to places of scarcity. In other words, facilitating supply and demand by way of a trustworthy (stop snickering) intermediary.

The time value of money assumes that money today (cash in hand) is worth X, and that money tomorrow (next year, etc) is worth X + some additional amount. If today’s $100 earns 2% interest, today's value of that $100 in 12 months time is $102. In reverse, borrowing $100 today at 5% requires repayment of $105 next year (retail borrowers pay more than retail lenders – that is, depositors – earn). The bank takes the 3% differential as its compensation for assuming the risk, and if it gets the calculation correct, that becomes its profit (after expenses, taxes, etc).DOR (HK) (talk) 16:34, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Extreme value discount on Vintage Antiques Roadshow

This just piqued my curiosity. I was watching the Antiques Roadshow, in the new format they call "Vintage (city name)". They've been doing this the past year or so. They recycle an old Antique Roadshow show, broadcasting an episode from, say, 2002, and after each appraisal they show the value it was given then, and then what it's worth as of 2017, with two forms of fanfare music: one signals if it's gone up, and the other down (and an up or down icon next to the 2017 price). It's hooked me. Sometimes the items may change significantly in value, but one I saw the other day (Vintage Charlotte, broadcast 7/31/17) really requires explanation. It was an appraisal of a c. 1820 American silk Militia flag, with an embroidered eagle, 13 stars, "death before dishonor" banner, etc. Whoops. I wrote this but I stopped to try to see if I could target it better and actually you can watch the appraisal yourself: here. My question is if anyone knows why this might have gone from being appraised at $75,000 – $85,000 in 2002, to $8,000 in 2017. It's highly unusual for a historical artifact to diminish in value by an order of magnitude. Consistently watching the show, I can tell you this is unusual, and also that they have given explanation for such extremes in the past (such as for an artwork, that it was discovered to be a fake, or that a huge trove of some type of item was found so the marketplace was flooded) but they provide no explanation here.--67.244.114.239 (talk) 14:26, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As a long-term fan of Antiques Roadshow myself, it's not unusual for the expert to comment that, a few years ago such an item would be worth £xxx but in today's market it's worth £xx. The market can rise as well as fall, and to an extent if you buy an antique you are taking a gamble on resale value. --TammyMoet (talk) 19:07, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We may never know without contacting both experts. Some possibilities:

Mistakes. One or both experts might have messed up.

Faded colors. The flag has most of the colors faded away entirely, especially blues, leaving the top banners virtually unreadable, and this might affect price. Perhaps the first expert didn't account for this, while the 2nd did.

Supply versus demand. In a small market, even a minor change in either can dramatically affect the price. StuRat (talk) 20:45, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I once priced a rare book at Amazon; the asking price was $400.00 Since I had two copies, I offered mine for $375 plus express shipping. There was a price war, and we got into the $100 range when others entered the market, last I checked the book is selling for $20-$40, and I have withdrawn mine from sale. This seems to be a very typical effect with Amazon. Many more books are being listed. Every time I go to the library I see at least one person with a laptop and ISBN scanner looking for bargains. I can't compete on that scale. Likewise, almost all the used CD and DVD storefronts I know of suffered a crash in prices a few years back, and they are out of business. At one point they were offering $0.10 for items which the year before would have gotten $3-$10. Here are a few articles on crashes in used car prices and Elvis memorabilia which illustrate the same principle. μηδείς (talk) 18:25, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Have you considered that it might just be a typo for $80,000? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:38, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Volatility (finance) is, I believe, the correct term here. The market for rare, unique, and collectable items is highly volatile. --Jayron 32 14:23, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Based on what the OP wrote, if volatility was the issue, they would have explained it. It would have made interesting content. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:45, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Account

How do I delete my account? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rumpaskid (talk • contribs) 16:47, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You can't. Just stop using it. 92.8.219.206 (talk) 17:27, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's not possible to delete it, because the edits you made could not be attributed. This article may help with a solution: WP:FAQ. Also this: WP:Courtesy vanishing. Akld guy (talk) 21:13, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bearing in mind that the OP's account is most likely not the one he's talking about. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:18, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

He/she said "my account". What do you mean? Akld guy (talk) 03:27, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semis

Why do semis "hop" a little when they start accelerating? CTF83! 19:30, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

~~The sudden increase in blood pressure. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:38, 19 August 2017 (UTC)~~ Oh, not that kind of semi. Nevermind. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:39, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you did there... --Jayron 32 02:26, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Diesel engines tend to have more torque than gasoline engines, and, if the truck is empty, and hence has a much lower mass than the engine is designed for, this can translate into a noticeable lurch. The truck driver could eliminate this by pressing the accelerator very slowly, but they typically don't bother. StuRat (talk) 21:54, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think the OP is not asking about a lurch due to sudden acceleration. I think he means axle tramp, a form of violent bouncing up and down of an axle assembly. We don't have an article on axle tramp, but one definition is here. I also think the problem has nothing to do with whether the vehicle is diesel or not. Akld guy (talk) 23:37, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVQ5iZQTQJI video of axle tramp (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 01:10, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wow that's a really bad case of axle tramp. Good illustrative video. Akld guy (talk) 02:29, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is a description of axle tramp, with diagram, here: [2] 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:5560:5BBD:5A94:28E2 (talk) 07:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here's another kind of axle tramp: [3]. :-) StuRat (talk) 16:11, 21 August 2017 (UTC) [reply]

Wow that's a really bad case of axle tramp. Good illustrative photo. Akld guy (talk) 20:39, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Connecting analog phone to PC and/or alternatives

I am aware that dedicated VOIP phones exist, but this is quite a nice analog phone. I would have thought that my PC sound card would be able to output appropriate signals to operate it, so is there a combination of software and a simple analog adaptor that would allow me to use said phone as a VOIP phone for Skype for Business?

Failing that, what would be a cheap way of making use of it? I'm aware that nothing is free, but what might be a good bet?--Leon (talk) 19:59, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am guessing that you no longer have land line service in your home, and thus need to find a way to repurpose this phone. Is this correct ? StuRat (talk) 20:38, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You need an Analog telephone adapter. Phil Holmes (talk) 10:30, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Light on power strip

The little red light on a power strip, for example this, is a tiny little light bulb, not an LED. What is it called? How many watts does it use? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.194.69.36 (talk) 20:54, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Neon lamp#Indicator. This post by Clive Mitchell says of one "They typically run at 1mA which is low enough just to use a single resistor to drop the current directly from the mains. The voltage across the neon is about 90V when it strikes and 60V when lit, so theoretically the power dissipation of the neon lamp is just 0.06W. However with the resistor loss included it's about 0.1W at 110V and 0.25W at 240V. Virtually nothing in other words." -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 21:05, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

August 20

Filter for a digital camera

For taking pictures of the solar eclipse, what kind of filter is needed for a camera? — Melab±1 ☎ 00:32, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral density filter 5.0. Ref :[4] Aspro (talk) 01:42, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Are most filters that are sold compatible with most cameras? Like a Coolpix B700? — Melab±1 ☎ 20:43, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is this lens on Amazon that kind of lens? Does it fit a Nikon Coolpix B700? How can I tell if it fits? The Amazon page says it is 76 mm, but is that it's diameter? — Melab±1 ☎ 20:47, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That link is for a square sheet of polymer ("stronger than mylar") so you can "make your own filter for a fraction of what factory made filters cost". 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:EC30:98E9:F083:2A5E (talk) 22:45, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your camera seems to take 62mm filters:[5] 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:EC30:98E9:F083:2A5E (talk) 22:54, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

August 21

Is camping at Haiti's Citadelle allowed?

I've looked around online to find any answers to the questions I'm about to ask, but there is nothing to be found yet, so I came here to ask. I'm planning to go to Citadelle Laferrière in Northern Haiti in the future. I love the outdoors in general. I'm wondering since it is in a national park, if camping or sleeping for a night under the stars is permitted in or next to the premises of the Citadelle. If so, would it be safe, how much would it cost, and would I pay a guide or the office to do that? If staying for a night at the Citadelle is not allowed, is there a time limit to stay at the mountain top fort? 173.170.94.104 (talk) 06:08, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Did you ask the same question at Yahoo Answers? —2606:A000:4C0C:E200:F9E3:2F35:FA19:8314 (talk) 07:29, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Try posting your question here: https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Tourist_office (I googled "camping in Haiti". I would not do it.)196.213.35.146 (talk) 12:01, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Camping is a high-risk activity in certain parts of Haiti and is not recommended." https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Haiti 196.213.35.146 (talk) 12:07, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/haiti

https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings/haiti-travel-warning.html

(((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 19:04, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

August 22

White people and slavery

Were white people the first race to abolish slavery? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.170.121.11 (talk) 08:14, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No – because human races do not exist. Cheers ✦ _hugarheimur 09:37, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's not exactly true. Races exist; they just are not strictly defined in the way that people think they are. The next time a black man gets shot for walking down the street in the U.S., ask him if his race exists! Saying race doesn't exist is disingenuous. Saying that race is a cultural concept is different than saying it doesn't exist. Culture is real. Culture affects human lives every day in profound ways. See Race (human categorization), to wit "Although such groupings lack a firm basis in modern biology, they continue to have a strong influence over contemporary social relations." (bold mine) Race and society is also a good read. But no, please don't play the "race isn't real" bullshit. It's real. Just because the Nazis and the bigots don't properly understand what it is doesn't also mean it isn't real. --Jayron 32 11:39, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't a better way of phrasing your question be, "which society was the first in history to abolish slavery?"? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:51, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Answering my question, using our article on Abolitionism, I'd venture to suggest France in 1315. That article seems to suffer from some of our usual systemic biases, in this case a Euro-American view of the world. That said, I'd doubt we'd have recorded history of an earlier abolition, though happy to be corrected. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:54, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For this, we have to stick with written history. There are oral stories that may imply that slavery was abolished. In written history, the Qin dynasty abolished slavery in 220 BC. Unfortunately, those laws were overturned when the Qin dynasty fell. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 12:01, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Likewise, Wang Mang of the Xin dynasty abolished it in 9 CE, but it was later reinstated. --Jayron 32 12:03, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We should get that information into our article. Got any references, 209 and Jayron? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:19, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

From the Wikipedia article titled "Wang Mang" , and I quote, "In 9, Wang Mang instituted a revolutionary land redistribution system...Wang also abolished slavery." --Jayron 32 12:22, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So, OP, I don't know what "race" Chinese people come from, but it's that one. No-one is going to beat 220 BC --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:19, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Traditionally, the Chinese are considered to be "yellow", as opposed to "white", "black", "red", etc. That's kind of an obsolete term nowadays. But at least it undercuts the OP's likely implication that whites would be superior because they abolished slavery first. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:46, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's rather like saying the British were the first to end the war in the American Revolution.--WaltCip (talk) 15:09, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Help understanding supermarket prices

Sorry if this is an incredibly stupid question but my maths skills are absolutely zero. When I go into the supermarket some products list their prices as "per 100g" and some "per kg". How do I convert between these? For example, some canned spinach is listed as "54.4p per 100g" while a bag of frozen spinach is "£1.15 per kg". How do I convert the kg one into grams and the 100g one into kg so that I can compare the prices properly? Thanks for your time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.255.78.25 (talk) 09:30, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

One kilogram (kg) is 1000 grams (1000g), which is ten times 100g, so to get the price per kg from the price per 100g you just multiply by 10: 54.4p per 100g is equivalent to £5.44 (i.e. 544p) per kg. Or you can do it in reverse: divide by 10 to convert from price per kg to price per 100g: the frozen spinach is 11.5p per 100g. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 09:41, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I often have to explain to people that if you multiply by 10, you move the dot to the right. If you divide by 10, you move the dot to the left. Then, they have to work out some way to remember that multiply is right and divide is left. Of course, I assume that they also need some way to remember which way is right and which is left. But, I can often get people to eventually comprehend multiplying and dividing by 10. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 11:57, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's very easy. Multiplying produces a larger number, so the whole number part becomes bigger (decimal point moves to the right). Dividing produces a smaller number, so the whole number part becomes smaller (decimal point moves to the left). A potential source of confusion is that shops price food by the hectogramme and also by the quarter for comparison. A quarter is 114 g, so if meat or cheese is priced at one pound/hg it will be one pound 14 p a quarter and ten pounds a kilo. 1 lb is thus four pounds and 56 pence and 2 lb are nine pounds and 12 pence. The rule is that a kilo is 10% more than 2 lb - in this example ten pounds and 30 pence. The difference is accounted for by a rounding error. 82.14.24.95 (talk) 15:14, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]