Talk:Pythagoras

Pythagoras father Mnesarchus

Mostly all the ancient historians agree that Pythagoras's father Mnesarchus was originally from Tyre. Aristoxenus in his book the life of the Pythagoras says it, Aristarchus (who was from Samos himself), Theopompus and Neanthes, as well as Clement of Alexandria says it as per this source https://books.google.se/books?id=teoyAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA20&dq=neanthes+of+cyzicus+pythagoras+tyre&pg=PA15&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Hippobotus says the same according to this source https://books.google.se/books?id=teoyAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA20&dq=neanthes+of+cyzicus+pythagoras+tyre&pg=PA15&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Herodotus and Isocrates state also his father was from Tyre as per your previous Note Herodotus, iv. 95, Isocrates, Busiris, 28–29 say he was originally from Tyre. Later writers called him a Tyrrhenian or Phliasian, and gave Marmacus, or Demaratus, as the name of his father: Diogenes Laërtius, viii. 1; Porphyry, Vit. Pyth. 1, 2; Justin, xx. 4; Pausanias, ii. 13.

I could not find the Fergusson source that you posted in digital format but I did find Fergusson's book Pythagoras: His Lives and the Legacy of a Rational Universe in Scribd where in page 29-30 she goes into the discussion of his father's ancestry. In this source the author states that Iamblichus’ research indicated that both parents traced their ancestry to the first colonists on Samos. The problem with Lamblichus's research is that is based on mythology as exposed in Iamblichus' Life of Pythagoras (p.2-3) found here https://books.google.se/books?id=EB5UvHrdMpsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=iamblichus+pythagoras&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwihgaulgNDXAhUIGZoKHcXSDlEQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=iamblichus%20pythagoras&f=false where he says he descends from Anchaeus and Jupiter who was ordered by the oracle to establish a colony named Samos. Then he goes and says that Pythagoras might actually be the son of Apollo according to some Samian poet. Lamblichus even got the name of Pythagoras' father wrong calling him Mnemarchus instead of Mnesarchus according to this source https://books.google.se/books?id=teoyAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA20&dq=neanthes+of+cyzicus+pythagoras+tyre&pg=PA15&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=tyre&f=false.

Lamblichus research making Pytagoras a descenddant of Jupiter or the son of Apollo sounds too much like a fantasy as most mythological genealogies. It does not seem like many or any authors agree with Lamblichus research except perhaps with Hermippus. I say perhaps because as stated by Diogenes Laertius in Chapter 1. PYTHAGORAS (c. 582-500 B.C.)

"Having now completed our account of the philosophy of Ionia starting with Thales, as well as of its chief representatives, let us proceed to examine the philosophy of Italy, which was started by Pythagoras,1 son of the gem-engraver Mnesarchus, and according to Hermippus, a Samian, or, according to Aristoxenus, a Tyrrhenian from one of those islands which the Athenians held after clearing them of their Tyrrhenian inhabitants. Some indeed say that he was descended through Euthyphro, Hippasus and Marmacus from Cleonymus, who was exiled from Phlius, and that, as Marmacus lived in Samos, so Pythagoras was called a Samian. [2]

it could be that Hermippus and Aristoxenus might be talking about Pythagoras himself as a Samian or a Tyrrhenian, not about his father just like in your previous Notes 3 source. Aristoxenus has already stated in his Life of Pythagoras that Mnesarchus was from Tyre as stated in the above source https://books.google.se/books?id=teoyAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA20&dq=neanthes+of+cyzicus+pythagoras+tyre&pg=PA15&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false so I do not know why Fergusson or any of the later authors of Laertius source Aristoxenus might would think he was refering to Mnesarchus

Fegusson also states that Porphyry also says he was from Tyre and that another two of his sources says he was a "Tyrrhenian" and thus he was uncommitted. She then states that Diogenes Laertius, the earliest of the three biographers, pointed out that the ancient historian Aristoxenus of Tarentum – with excellent contacts, such as Dionysius the Younger of Syracuse and Pythagoreans in the fourth century B.C. – also had said Mnesarchus was a Tyrrhenian. But again Laertius statement is not clear as weather he was talking about Pythagoras or his father and repeating again the above Aristoxenus said also Mnesarchus was from Tyre https://books.google.se/books?id=teoyAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA20&dq=neanthes+of+cyzicus+pythagoras+tyre&pg=PA15&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false This accounts then to two sure sources saying Mnsarchus was a "Thyrrhenian" according to Porphyry.

The problem with the term "Thyrrhenian" is that it was used to refer to non-greek groups of people in ancient times to identify not just the Etruscans, non-greeks from Lemnos and sea peoples but also the Phoenicians who settled colonies in the Thyrrhenian Sea "triangle" of Pirgy, and Punicum in the border of Latium, Sicily and Sardinia as stated in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians#Identification_with_the_Phoenicians_from_Tyre long before the other groups.

This leaves Lamblichus and his mythological research pretty lonely regarding the origins of Pythagoras's father with the majority of authors stating that he was from Tyre or linked to the Phoenicians of Tyre through the "Thyrrhenians". CalinicoFire (talk) 22:31, 21 November 2017 (UTC)