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Case name Closed
Historical elections 13 Sep 2024
Request name Motions  Case Posted
Clarification request: The Troubles none (orig. case) 15 May 2018
Clarification request: Civility in infobox discussions none (orig. case) 15 May 2018

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Use this page to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.

  • Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
  • Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including bans).

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  4. Add the diffs of the talk page notifications under the applicable header of the request.
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Clarification request: The Troubles

Initiated by Swarm at 00:39, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
The Troubles arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Swarm

Greetings. So, WP:TROUBLES#Guide to enforcement contains a 2011 provision that places all pages in the topic area under a blanket 1RR page restriction that is specifically enforceable without warning, provided {{Troubles restriction}} has been placed on the talk page. This directly contradicts the current awareness criteria for enforcing page restrictions, and it's unclear to me whether that provision is exempt from, or has been superseded by, the modern awareness criteria that were implemented in 2014 and 2018. In spite of the contradiction with standard practice, it continues to be advertised as an active sanction on many articles, which is apparently validated on the case page. However, there's no apparent record, anywhere, of an intentional exemption to ArbCom's now-standardized procedure regarding awareness. It also claims to derive its authority, at least in part, from a community decision, but there is no record of such a restriction at WP:GS or on the case page, so it's unclear as to whether the "no warning" provision is actually the will of the community. Thanks in advance.

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

The Troubles: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
  • By its own terms, the motion applies only to page restrictions placed as discretionary sanctions and does not apply to restrictions directly imposed by the Committee, such as 1RR from The Troubles or the General Prohibition from PIA3. As far as I remember, comments from arbitrators from the original motion supported that interpretation. Similar interpretation at the ACN talk thread. Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 01:46, 15 May 2018 (UTC) I'm not recusing because this is a procedural clarification request per Jan 2018 precedent (mailing list login required). Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 01:49, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry, I misread this. Community consensus was apparently here: permalink. Looks like it was at AE, though, so it probably doesn't really count as a community-imposed sanction. Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 02:01, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • It also appears that if the community did impose 1RR, it may have been rescinded by ArbCom in this motion, which superseded "All extant remedies of The Troubles" with the intention of "Clarity and complying with general expectations", as arbitrator David Fuchs said. In any event, this ends up beyond the clerks' pay grade in interpreting ArbCom decisions. Hope the links help. Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 02:06, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Troubles: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • The general 1RR in the area was placed as a discretionary sanction by an administrator, so it is subject to the awareness criteria while enforcing it. This includes the requirements for page restrictions, as individual administrators cannot supersede the awareness requirements set by the Committee. (They could theoretically make them more stringent, but not less.) ~ Rob13Talk 16:21, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The concept of giving a warning, before blocking or sanctioning an editor for innocently violating a DS restriction, originated in a comment I made in a 2008 case that it would be unfair to penalize an editor for doing something that is generally allowed, but isn't allowed on a page covered by DS. The intent was certainly not that this observation evolve into a complicated rule-set of "awareness criteria," in parallel with the rules-creep that continues to take place all over the wiki (as observed in this essay by a community-elected WMF trustee). The importance of reasonable warnings is reinforced when we periodically get AE or ARCA appeals from editors who are blocked or topic-banned for a DS breach and respond in good faith along the lines of "I didn't know there was any such rule" or "what the heck are you talking about?" To me, "warn before sanctioning if it isn't clear the editor knew (or clearly should have known) he or she was violating a restriction or acting improperly" remains a basic precept of wiki proportionality, fairness, and common sense. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:10, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification request: Civility in infobox discussions

Initiated by SchroCat at 15:47, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Civility in infobox discussions arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by SchroCat

As the committee is aware, Cassianto has been put under sanctions by Sandstein (in this edit). The wording he has put together is "you may not edit discussions about anything related to infoboxes, either as regards their use in specific articles or in the abstract". I've looked through the ArbCom decision and I cannot see any restriction in the DS that stops involvement in a discussion "in the abstract"; this means that Cassianto is unable even mention IBs in any forum, or even to vote in the Wikidata RfC.

There is no part of the ArbCom ruling or in DS that justifies the addition of the words "or in the abstract". This additional restriction steps over what was voted upon by the committee and clarification is needed to establish that this is beyond the scope of the probation. – SchroCat (talk) 15:47, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • As I am asking for clarification, rather than appealing anything, this seems an unnecessarily bureaucratic way to avoid looking into another flaw in the way this case has run, but so be it. - SchroCat (talk) 16:29, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • BU Rob13: nope. I've made it very clear that I am asking for clarification. This is the second time that I have seen wiki-lawyering by the committee to avoid admitting there is fault, and it is an unedifying spectacle. Unfortunately it's not really a great surprise either. Now: can you provide clarification as to whether "or in the abstract" is beyond the scope of the DS or the ruling? Once we get to that point, Cassianto will then be able to appeal against the additional unwarranted wording. - SchroCat (talk) 17:08, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How big of you Sandstein. Burob, I said before you should have recused from this case, considering your previous actions at an idiotbox discussion and an FAC: you were disruptive then, and your views are obviously affecting your decision making process here. Mind you, given the response at the last discussion where the committee deciding evasion pointy near-trolling comments were the order of the day, I remain unsurprised that you couldn't actually arbitrate your way out of a wet paper bag. - SchroCat (talk) 17:39, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • And while you're all fucking about wasting time looking through Cassianto's history, did you not think it worth to spin through the thread? How about an editor re-opening a discussion less than 24 hours after another discussion had been closed, then adding the box back after 11 days, while the RfC is still open? Excellent news that ArbCom managed to "sort" all that messy IB nonsense out then. Good work: give yourselves a big pat on the back for a job well done complete fuck up that missed the point and has no effect. More and more proof (not that this was needed) that this case wasn't about "sorting out" the IB question, just in punishing Cassianto. If the (linked) re-litigating and edit warring had been to remove the box, rather than force it back in, all hell would have broken out and it would have been ANI, blocks or ArbCom to ensure punishment was meted out. - SchroCat (talk) 17:45, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sandstein

As BU Rob13 notes below, only the sanctioned users themselves may appeal a discretionary sanction. Sandstein 16:22, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If anybody cares, a previous appeal by Cassianto at AN was rejected, and I have now noticed a recent topic ban violation by Cassianto, and blocked them in response. Sandstein 17:17, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cassianto

Query by Iridescent

BU Rob13, where are you getting Cassianto will need to be the one to bring any appeal from? This is a clarification request, not an appeal; the motion you're presumably citing says that only the sanctioned party can appeal a sanction, but there's nothing in either the motion or WP:ARBPOL to say that a third party can't query Arbcom as to whether a particular action taken at WP:AE is in line with what the committee intended when a sanction was issued. Asking "Hey, Arbcom, what did you actually mean when you said this?" is exactly what this particular board is for. This is "Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment", not "Arbitration/Appeals", and SchroCat's query is fairly explicitly a request for clarification, not a request for amendment. ‑ Iridescent 2 16:41, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by power~enwiki

As a clarification, the case allows for "standard discretionary sanctions", which are "broadly construed". Discussions of infoboxes "in the abstract" seem to fit in this. I also remind SchroCat that Comments that are uncivil or intended to provoke a negative reaction are unhelpful.

As a straight appeal, I don't see the value in preventing Cassianto from discussing infoboxes outside of article or talk space. power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:45, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mr rnddude

Just so we're clear: this is the edit Cassianto has received a block for. Going to a neutral third party admin for assistance (specifically one that came in to save the day after the shitshow that was the last ARCA) in response to this bit of editing. There's a big DS notice when you edit the article, and there's a short instructional note to "PLEASE DO NOT UNCOLLAPSE THE INFOBOX WITHOUT SEEKING A CONSENSUS FIRST ON THE ARTICLE'S TALK PAGE" (the allcaps, is not mine, that's actually in the article). Their justification for ignoring the notices? "... I thought that it [the collapsed infobox] was quite useless". *sigh*, directly, the intervention of ArbCom here has been a failure in what it tried to achieve, and a success in what its proponents wanted to achieve. That is, you failed to even lessen the issue, but succeeded in kicking Cassianto to the ground. Mr rnddude (talk) 22:00, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: No, I'm not asking for the block or TBAN to be removed. No, I am not adding to an appeal. No, I'm not even addressing the ARCA. I'm dropping you the exact edits that have led to this here. You work out if your intervention looks successful to anyone not interested in punishing Cass. For me the answer is: No. Mr rnddude (talk) 22:07, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by RexxS

I think many of you will know my strongly pro-infobox views, but I have had a good relationship with Cassianto since he started editing, and like Brad, I'd love to find ways to have him return to making his prolific contributions without running into conflict over what is really an unimportant issue when viewed dispassionately. The collapsed infobox that sparked this off was a hard-fought compromise that both sides of the infobox dispute could live with. Neither side saw it as ideal, but both agreed that it would be acceptable. That explains the ALL-CAPS notice within a comment, asking that the box not be uncollapsed. It is delicate compromises like these that I had hoped the ArbCom decisions would help stabilise. Nevertheless, I think that anyone could appreciate that Cassianto might well be justified in being upset by the change to the infobox.

I believe the purpose of the ArbCom remedy was to keep Cassianto out of further on-wiki conflict concerning infoboxes. Its intent was laudable, but its effect was also to muzzle him from reporting what he must have seen as a flagrant breach of the circumscribed editing environment now in place around infoboxes. Instead of tackling the editor who caused him upset, he went to Bishonen to seek assistance. Lots of editors do, and for good reason; you usually get a sensible, humane resolution to your concerns. It's much better than ANI for any reasonable editor. The result is that he's blocked for a week. I have to ask, was that really the intention of ArbCom when they placed his restriction?

I've already suggested to Sandstein that I'll happily listen to Cassianto off-wiki if he has concerns in future, and I'll do my best to help him resolve them. Naturally, Sandstein only sees that an attempt on my part to "circumvent the ban", but I suppose I was foolish to expect anything else. Hopefully, with good will all-around (and just a bit less process-wonkery), we can get Cassianto back to contributing productively soon. --RexxS (talk) 23:01, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by GoodDay

May we have something more clearly worded? How about a list of where an editor can & can't post or edit about infoboxes. GoodDay (talk) 22:21, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If this includes not being able to contact administrators about infobox concerns, then that's rather harsh, IMHO. GoodDay (talk) 23:49, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Civility in infobox discussions: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Civility in infobox discussions: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I hate to focus on procedural issues, but Cassianto will need to be the one to bring any appeal. Other editors cannot appeal on his behalf. If he notes here that he wants this to be his appeal, then we can do that to avoid unnecessary bureaucracy, but otherwise, this will need to be closed without Committee comment. This is actually important because, if we were to decline an appeal, Cassianto would be barred from raising the appeal at AN or AE. He must be the one to choose if he wants to raise the issue here so he can decide if he wants to forego appeals elsewhere. ~ Rob13Talk 16:16, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Saying "I'm asking for clarification that this sanction is impermissible under the arbitration remedy" is equivalent to saying "I'm appealing". ~ Rob13Talk 17:01, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Any discussion about infoboxes is included in the discretionary sanctions. Nothing restricts the remedy to just discussions about a specific infobox. ~ Rob13Talk 17:19, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • @SchroCat: The discretionary sanctions were how we dealt with the issues in this topic area. Where did you give that editor a DS notice? Where did you file a report at AE? ~ Rob13Talk 18:19, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • @GoodDay: For a topic banned editor, that list consists of all pages on-wiki. ~ Rob13Talk 23:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • It does include contacting administrators about the topic area, and that is harsh. Topic bans are usually placed due to severe disruption that could not be curbed with lesser sanctions. They are an attempt to avoid a block by removing the editor from a topic area completely. It’s important to note the years of conflict here, as well as the attempt to restrict Cassianto in a much lesser way. He did not abide by that restriction, leading to a topic ban that removes him from the topic of infoboxes entirely. I hope that he will be able to return to that area soon, but he’ll first need to convince admins that he’s able to abide by his lesser ArbCom restriction. The current topic ban violations are not doing a great job of showing that. ~ Rob13Talk 12:58, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand the concern that this "clarification request" actually serves as an appeal by someone other than the sanctioned editor. Such disguised appeals by others are usually disallowed, partly because they may be a poor use of time if the sanctioned editor doesn't actually wish to appeal, and partly because the request may not put the sanctioned editor's best foot forward. Having said that, in this instance the dispute remains an open sore in the community and there can be little doubt of Cassianto's point of view, so I'll address the merits. Remedy 2 in the Civility in infobox discussions decision provides: Standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all discussions about infoboxes and to edits adding, deleting, collapsing, or removing verifiable information from infoboxes. (emphasis added). This is very broadly worded and I don't see anything to prevent an admin, in a proper case, from barring an editor from discussing infoboxes abstractly as well as specifically. Whether imposing that broad a topic-ban on Cassianto and blocking him under it were proportionate is a different question not currently before us. I will add this: it is sad when a quality content-creator stops contributing content, voluntarily or involuntarily, over a relatively peripheral issue such as infoboxes. I wish I had a suggestion for steering Cassianto away from the point that, according to the infobox information in the box on the top of his talkpage, he says he has reached. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:36, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree with the notion that infoboxes themselves are steering away content-creators from contributing content; my understanding of the frustration, from a wider perspective that I believe has been implied by myself and others in the past, is that for these editors, when they try to calmly explain their editorial viewpoint in regards to content, frequently they get non-argument responses that soon turns into accusations of biting and ownership on their part. This is incredibly restricting knowing that anything content you write can be immediately dismissed, and any attempt at a civil discourse will likely be futile as all opinions, whether or not they are valid, are presumably treated equally. While in principle, all editors should be treated equally across the project, but I have a strong feeling that sometimes we are giving far too much leniency to supposedly new editors without considering whether or not they are/were really here to become legitimate contributors, or do not consistently reprimand editors who do not communicate properly in the acceptable standards of this community. I am not dismissing that being uncivil and overprotective of certain articles is not an serious issue for some of these seasoned content-creators, but I think it should be highlighted that one of the key reasons in my opinion that pushed these editors to these behaviours is the declining mutual respect between parties and declining notion of common sense and decency in these interactions.
    Back to the clarification request, I will echo the thoughts expressed by RexxS; imposing the discretionary sanction in this case was perfectly fine as it was what was authorised by the remedy, and the interpretation was within the scope in the broad sense I suppose (even though I do not support this particular interpretation as proportionate, but like Newyorkbrad said this is for another discussion). However, I believe the purpose of any remedies is to seek improvement, and I thought Cassianto's post to Bishonen's talk page was certainly an improvement on their approach to the infoboxes issue. While it may have been a violation of the wording described in the topic ban that was imposed, I did not think the block was necessarily constructive. Alex Shih (talk) 04:23, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • As above - yes, you can ask for clarification of another editor's sanctions here, though it is kind of confusing and unnecessary given the now-realized possibility that they will appeal in their own right. On the substance, yep, you can get topic-banned from infoboxes "in the abstract" (read: "broadly construed") if you're already restricted in the input you can offer and then it turns out you're unwilling to work within those limits. As is often the case with AE sanctions and their follow-up blocks, I don't know that I would have personally implemented these, but that doesn't really matter; they're within the normal range of administrative discretion. I hate to say it, because it sounds so procedure-y, but I think more commentary than that from arbcom would start to risk crossing the streams with the still-outstanding AE appeal, which may yet end up back here. (But, you know, hopefully not. Listen to long-term sane people like RexxS and Bishonen.) Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:47, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • For all those who are always suspecting arbcom of various elaborate conspiracies: as usual, poor coordination is more likely than successful conspiracy execution. This was closed and reopened because another arb noted, correctly, that the answer was clear and that having this open was potentially a distraction from the AE thread, and asked the clerks to archive it. My inattentive self then came along and made the highly original observation above that the answer is clear and that having this open is potentially a distraction from the AE thread. The case clerk came along a bit later and closed it, as requested. Trying to read too much into who closed it or when isn't going to get you anything except a headache. Opabinia regalis (talk) 09:05, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes the topic ban is within the scope of the remedy. That's not to say it was justified in this instance - that's a matter for the admin who imposed it, and for the current AE appeal. In passing, agree this ARCA seems to have closed a bit early. Pleased it was reopened and apologies to a)the clerks for the contrary directions they received, and b) to any editor who wanted to comment and didn't previously get the chance. The outcome seems pretty clear given the comments already received in this section, but more input welcome as always. -- Euryalus (talk) 07:48, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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