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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Bdmwiki (talk | contribs) at 08:56, 15 July 2018 (→‎Reference re consensus of historians). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

"Slaves" vs. "People he enslaved"

A recent edit changed the word "slave" in multiple places to "(woman) (people) (etc.) he enslaved" - the "he referring to Jefferson. I understand the distinction that is trying to be made here - that this was a PERSON, not a "slave", but rather a person who had been enslaved by others. However, I object to the terminology "a woman he enslaved" as if he done it personally - as if he had taken a free person and enslaved them. Can we just say "enslaved woman", "enslaved person", etc. - as a reasonable substitute for "slave" that does not suggest that Jefferson personally made them into slaves? --MelanieN (talk) 01:56, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your point about using the term "woman he enslaved" being inaccurate. However, I must strongly disagree with your point about the word "slave". Of course, a slave is a person. Libertybison (talk) 05:29, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You're right of course, but this is part of the new kind of political correctness. IMHO it's an awkward construction. I think it's silly to replace every usage of the word "slave" with "enslaved person," but I won't be reverting such changes. YoPienso (talk) 07:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Number of children

I see that Sally Hemmings gave birth to six children in the synopsis at the top of the article, but later it is stated that she only had five children with Thomas Jefferson. Am I to infer that she had a sixth child with another man (which seems inconsistent with her ages at both the beginning and end of her relationship with TJ) or is there a mistake between the two article sections? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.135.206.151 (talk) 21:54, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No Sally did not have any children with anybody other than Thomas Jefferson. But there is confusion and debate over whether they had 5 or 6 children together. Madison Hemings' 1873 newspaper account said they had five children together, including their first child who "lived but a short time". Jefferson's Farm Book also lists five children born to Sally, with the eldest being her first daughter named Harriet born in 1795 and dying in 1797 (Sally had another daughter with Jefferson named Harriet in 1801). It's unclear if the first child of Thomas Jefferson and Sally who died young mentioned in Madison's account is supposed to be Harriet I or not. Madison claims that Sally was already pregnant when they left Paris in 1789, but Harriet I wasn't born until five years later. Since all of these events happened prior to Madison's 1805 birth, he didn't have any firsthand knowledge of them. So we can't be sure if Madison was mistaken on the number of children born to Sally and Thomas or if he was mistaken on exactly when their first child was born. Sadly, the article is an incoherent and contradictory mess on this point because different editors have made edits based on the 5 or 6 children numbers and there is also no mention of the uncertainty on this point in the article. Libertybison (talk) 21:49, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Reference re consensus of historians

At the beginning of the article it states, "A consensus of historians believe Jefferson was the father of her five children." The sole Wikipedia reference to this claim is the link, www.monticello.org/sallyhemings/. I don't see where in this link it establishes the fact of this consensus of historians. I do see that this link does clearly note two studies, one by the Thomas Jefferson Foundation, and one by the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society...which studies came to diametrically opposing conclusions on the matter.

I guess a sort of legalistic claim could be made that within the confines of each of these two studies an isolated consensus of historians reached their (respective, disparate) conclusions, such that it could be technically claimed that, "[One isolated] consensus of historians believe [Thomas] Jefferson was the father of her five children," but this sort of defense of the existing wording would be highly misleading, to say the least, without also noting that a different, isolated consensus of historians in the other study arrived at the polar opposite conclusion.

Another, even more cynical defense of the current wording would be that it doesn't specify Thomas Jefferson as the Jefferson, even though virtually 100% of naive readers would assume that it was referring to Thomas Jefferson in this sentence. It is technically true that the DNA evidence apparently established that one Jefferson male was a father, but therein lies the rub, as the other study concluded it was highly unlikely that this Jefferson male could have been Thomas Jefferson.

Or alternatively, perhaps I'm just missing in this monticello.org link the noting of a study of historians establishing a current consensus, in which case the article should do a better job bringing that unequivocal factual support to an interested reader's attention. Otherwise, if there is no such study or other basis of requisite academic weight establishing this "consensus of historians", it seems like the intro section of the article should simply highlight the fact that two nearly contemporaneous studies involving historians have reached opposite conclusions on the matter.

I don't care one iota whether Thomas Jefferson was the father or not, so please don't argue the case either way. I do want the article to be accurate with respect to the academic reality and to provide an appropriate reference to the existing claim that a consensus of historians supports only one conclusion. 19:45, 13 July 2018 (UTC)Bdmwiki (talk)

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