Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 November 1

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November 1

Men's and Women's Winter Olympics

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 00:29, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Followup: Per agreement of all participants and the closer at User talk:BrownHairedGirl#Category:Men’s_in_freestyle_skiing_at_the_2014_Winter_Olympics (permalink), the following 10 categories were renamed again to correct my error in the nomination:

10 categories

--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:18, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Women's alpine skiing events at the 2002 Winter Olympics to Category:Women's alpine skiing at the 2002 Winter Olympics

61 more removal of "events" or "events in"

Nominator's rationale. Remove the superfluous word "events" or the phrase "events in" from these categories. The parent categories of events-by-sport are all just called "<sportname> at the YYYY Winter Olympics" (e.g. Category:Alpine skiing at the 2002 Winter Olympics), and there is no need to add the word "events" when subcategorising by sex — it conveys no extra information and resolves no ambiguity.

Some are gendered categories are already named this way, e.g. Category:Women's rowing at the 2016 Summer Olympics and the 10 other subcats of Category:Women's rowing at the Summer Olympics, or Category:Women's ice hockey at the Winter Olympics/Category:Men's ice hockey at the Winter Olympics. This nomination would rename the others to match.

For anyone wondering about the absence of Summer Olympics categories from this proposal: none of the by-sport subcats of Category:Women's events at the Summer Olympics uses the word "events".

Note that the status quo would not be a god option. The list above includes two different formats: "<sex> <sportname> events at the YYYY" and "<sex> events in <sportname> at the YYYY". Some cats are already named "<sex> <sportname> at the YYYY", so we currently have three different formats.

(Aside to anyone questioning the utility of these categories: these subcats by sex capture a WP:DEFINING characteristic of the events. Where men and women complete separately, categorisation on that basis is explicitly permitted by WP:Cat gender.) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:54, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom - makes sense and brings the Winter categories in line with the Summer ones. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 08:31, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support - makes sense. Nimrodbr (talk) 09:08, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Hanson (band) members

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 00:27, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting Category:Hanson (band) members (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Per consensus/convention that "categories should not be created when only one [band] member has an article." Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 19:47, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Television templates by genre

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Merge. Timrollpickering 16:50, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merging Category:Animated series templates, Category:Children's television templates, Category:Comedy television templates, Category:Drama television templates, Category:Reality television series templates, Category:Soap opera templates, Category:Sitcom templates, Category:Sketch comedy series templates, and Category:Variety television series templates to Category:Television program templates

Nominator's rationale: Genre is certainly a relevant categorization for television program articles. However, categorizing their templates by genre is of doubtful utility, in the same way that categorizing these templates by any of the other bases for categorizing their articles (e.g., by year or country of origin) would be. But, lacking is a parent category for television program templates, and this proposes to create one by merging these several genre categories. --Bsherr (talk) 15:26, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Convicted book-thieves

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering 16:48, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Convicted book-thieves to Category:People convicted of book theft

Nominator's rationale: To be consistent with all the other "People convicted of . . ." categories. UnitedStatesian (talk) 14:33, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok as creator. Johnbod (talk) 14:40, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom; you learn something new every day here. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:06, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support for consistency reasons. Is the main topic library theft or book store shoplifting? Dimadick (talk) 19:49, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support for consistency --Lenticel ^(talk) 00:52, 6 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

TV episodes by country and series

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 16:48, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting Category:Chinese television episodes by series (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Irish television episodes by series (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Polish television episodes by series (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Swiss television episodes by series (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: These are unnecessary for navigation, as they only hold a sub-cat for lists, and the parent Category:Television episodes by country and series now directly holds Category:Lists of television series episodes by country. The sub-cats have other appropriate parents, so no merging is needed. – Fayenatic London 10:34, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Holy orders in the Catholic Church

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: no consensus. There was strong opposition to Category:Clerical state in the Catholic Church and to merging with Category:Catholic clergy, but Category:Major orders in the Catholic Church seemed to get traction, though whether it should replace this category or be its parent was unresolved. I recommend a follow-up nomination with a new proposal and without the rejected proposals muddying the waters. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 05:49, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Holy orders in the Catholic Church to Category:Clerical state in the Catholic Church

Nominator's rationale: rename, apart from the eponymous article the category has a much broader content than just Holy orders. Clerical state would be a better term, per e.g. this source. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:54, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Alt What about Category:Holy orders and the Catholic Church? Also, not all clerics are ordained. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:40, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The alternative does not resolve the problem mentioned in the rationale. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:39, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯ xplicit 07:12, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I still prefer my alternative. While it does not resolve the "problem" mentioned in the rationale, that can be solved by manually moving those things that are not Holy Orders. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:59, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose "Clerical state" is highly ambiguous, and not a common term, surely? Johnbod (talk) 14:42, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Johnbod: The term is mostly used as part of the phrase "loss of clerical state" (e.g.). Please clarify why it is ambiguous or not common. Do you have a better suggestion for the category (given the fact that the current category content is broader than just about Holy orders)? Marcocapelle (talk) 21:12, 4 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, exactly - you've answered the "not common" part yourself! "Clerical state" may be the correct technical term, but will suggest Vatican City, Mt Athos, or pre-invasion Tibet to many. A better name is needed. Johnbod (talk) 00:39, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

An alternative might be to merge to Category:Catholic clergy. But that category is (until now) a set category, while here we have topic articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:33, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd support that alternative. Chicbyaccident (talk) 21:54, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - This is part of the structure of Category:Sacraments of the Catholic Church. And has a related article by that name, not to mention that that is the explicit name of the sacrament in question. I could support a Rename to Category:Holy orders (Catholic Church), to match other category members, if wanted, I suppose, though all of those could be renamed to "X in the Catholic Church", so I'm not really advocating a rename, so much as I'm strongly opposing the merge and the above suggested renames. - jc37 02:20, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This category makes sense as a stand-alone category. However it may be better organised in conjunction with parent Category:Chrisitan ordination (which I added) as child Category:Major orders, which is highly redundant. It does not bother me that content not only covers the (holy) orders themselves, but also topics common to all orders in relation to other topics (women, homosexuality, celibacy, religious orders, vocations etc.). In this respect, a title with orders seems more appropriate than (clerical) state. I am however open to alternative renamings such as Category:Holy orders in the Catholic Church (no capital O), Category:Major orders in the Catholic Church (merged with Category:Major orders) or Category:Ordination in the Catholic Church. This category should remain distinct from individual clergy categories. Place Clichy (talk) 12:49, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming to Category:Major orders in the Catholic Church and merging Category:Major orders into it is certainly an improvement as it broadens the scope of the category to not just the sacrament of holy orders. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:10, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Seems to make sense. Chicbyaccident (talk) 16:43, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would not oppose the creation of a parent category like Category:Major orders in the Catholic Church which would be a parent of the current nominated category. I would oppose a straight re-name though as Holy Orders is sufficiently defining to merit its own category. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:21, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Catholic Church offices

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Rename to Category:Catholic ecclesiastical titles without prejudice to a broader nomination of the tree. After long debate this has the most local consensus. Timrollpickering 21:51, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merging Category:Catholic Church offices to Category:Catholic Church organisation

Nominator's rationale: Pretty much identical scope? For any entry that cannot be dealt with as inside an identical scope should probably rather be subcategorised somewhere else? Chicbyaccident (talk) 07:38, 8 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

~~Keep~~ [see below] - the scope is by no means identical. The purpose of Category:Catholic Church offices is to subcategorise articles relating to positions in the Church such as bishop, pope, abbot etc. Oculi (talk) 21:23, 8 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The category should mainly consist of articles, most of the subcategories are not about a particular office (as a topic) so they may be moved to Category:Catholic Church organisation or to somewhere else in the tree of Category:Catholic Church. But that is a matter of reorganizing the content, not of reorganizing the categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:25, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Marcocapelle has updated the category's contents commendibly. However, doubts remain. Perhaps now the category might better be renamed to "Catholic ecclesiastical titles" or something similar while these entries that don't quialify there ought to be categorised inside Category:Catholic Church organisation? Relatedly, don't Category:Roman Catholic titular prelates by type‎ and Category:Military ordinariates rather belong in subcategories of Category:Holy orders in the Catholic Church‎? Chicbyaccident (talk) 11:41, 13 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't object to Category:Catholic ecclesiastical titles, but keeping the category name at offices does not harm either. I left Category:Holy orders in the Catholic Church‎ here as a subcategory but I do wonder what it is really meant for. With the current content, it is not quite about the topic holy orders (apart from the eponymous article). Marcocapelle (talk) 13:04, 13 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure either. It is rather unclear. That's why I think this category merits some reconsidering. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:30, 13 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯ xplicit 03:54, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to Category:Catholic ecclesiastical titles per parent Category:Ecclesiastical titles. The category's contents are indeed greatly improved. Oculi (talk) 08:36, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, as the nominator, I'd support that as second best option. Chicbyaccident (talk) 14:15, 3 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Please take care when choosing a category name to use words that are unambiguous to the lay reader. Be aware that certain terms which tend to mean one thing in modern, colloquial English may have a specialized meaning in the context of Catholic doctrine or administration. Some of these are known well enough outside Catholic circles, others less so. Bishop, priest, or deacon might be a position or an office to you and me, but they are (holy) orders in this context. Conversely, office can be something else. Other seemingly unambiguous terms like congregation, ordinary, or religious can have specialized meanings in a Catholic context which differ sufficiently from the more generalized sense as to permit confusion. So when choosing a name for a category, as far as possible terms should be chosen which will not confuse the general reader. Mathglot (talk) 21:11, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathglot: thank you for your advice. Which name would you recommend in this particular case? Marcocapelle (talk) 06:00, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep (perhaps renamed) So not merge. The category deals with job titles in the church. I would go with Occuli's suggestion, unless someone comes up with a better target. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:58, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and rename to Category:Catholic ecclesiastical titles. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:57, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯ xplicit 07:12, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and rename to Category:Roman Catholic Church titles; there are other Catholic Churches than the Roman one, and using "titles" removes the WP:ENGVAR spelling issue of Organi(s/z)ation. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:11, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This category is about the Catholic Church, overarching the Latin Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:21, 4 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to Category:Catholic Church titles of office. - From what I am reading, "office" is the right term, per various references. I think, as one person noted above, there is a misunderstanding in this discussion that the word office=title. It doesn't. And use of "ecclesiastical" is redundant, since we're already saying "Catholic Church". And so, by extension, I'd suggest that the parent category be renamed to Category:Ecclesiastical titles of office. I see that the related article has been recently Boldly moved, I might suggest it be moved to Ecclesiastical titles of office, for clarity, as well. - jc37 01:49, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as this is a distinct topic from the proposed target. I am open to renaming to Category:Catholic ecclesiastical titles per mother Category:Ecclesiastical titles. I removed Women in the Catholic Church which is unrelated. Place Clichy (talk) 12:49, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. In Category:Christian religious occupations, "X ecclesiastical offices‎" seems to be an established formula. Not sure what to make of that, though. Consider also: Category:Byzantine ecclesiastical titles and offices. Chicbyaccident (talk) 18:36, 22 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've been debating how to close this, and it's down to Category:Catholic ecclesiastical titles or Category:Catholic ecclesiastical offices‎. The discussion above suggests "titles", but my instincts lean toward "offices" per the convention for the category tree (e.g. Category:Anglican ecclesiastical offices). Foo titles of office (suggested by jc37) may be appropriate but would involve a wider nomination that includes the parent Category:Ecclesiastical titles. So, I'm not quite sure what to do... I think your comment contains relevant information that may have been overlooked before, but I'd prefer not to relist a third time. I think I'll come back with fresh eyes in the morning, though I'd be happy for someone else to close the discussion if they can see a clear consensus more readily than I can. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 06:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Black Falcon: Good luck with closing this discussion. - just a friendly reminder :-) Marcocapelle (talk) 12:07, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.