Talk:List of awards and nominations received by BTS

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Possible page revamp?

(ugh forgive my poor brain for the PCA part of my orig question, I kept looking for it under "P" and stupidly failed to see it was listed under "E! PCA" so I removed it) So I've been looking at a bunch of GA/FL music articles to get an idea of how to improve the main BTS articles (artist page, awards list, discog list) and I was wondering how feasible it would be to rearrange the page to something similar to this? It's very comprehensive and one easy scroll. Ofc she noticeably has less awards than BTS hence the "feasible" part given how long a BTS list would be, but I'd appreciate any thoughts or input on the matter to help make the page a better read so pinging some of the most active editors I know @DanielleTH, Snowflake91, Ukiss2ne14lyfe, Lirim.Z, Alexanderlee, and Explicit:. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 18:54, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Sure, but I would combine the Korean and International award section into one.--Lirim | Talk 20:13, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

@Lirim.Z: Yes, that's what I was thinking of, combining all the awards into one table. My only issue is that, as it stands now each international award has a short description for the section so unfamiliar readers are able to get a brief idea about it, but if we combine all into one there won't be any place to offer that sort of information to readers, unless we place notes for each one? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 21:02, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

For FL review, 90% of awards in "other awards" section should be removed anyway, they are most likely not notable enough, only those major awards should be listed like at that example of Meghan Trainor.

100% not notable, random awards with very limited or zero coverage in secondary sources

• SBS MTV Best of the Best
• Mp3 Music Awards
• Arirang TV Pops in Seoul Awards
• Arirang TV Simply K-Pop Awards
• MBC Music Show Champion Awards
• Hanteo Awards
• Busan One Asia Festival Awards
• A' Design Award and Competition
• KBS World Radio
• KBS MV Bank MV Best 5
• Korean Consumer Forum's Brand of the Year Awards
• Journalists Federation of Korea
• Seoul Metropolitan Government
• YouTube (diamond play button is not really an award)
• Korea Green Foundation

Most likely not notable to be included in FL article

• Soompi Awards
• V Live Awards
• iF Design Award
• Philippine K-pop Awards

Notable awards

• The Fact Music Awards Snowflake91 (talk) 21:20, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: Thanks for the input. I already started working up something in my sandbox and filtered out most of what you recommended so they won't appear in the table when I'm done. I'm rubbish at tables though (they're the one thing I still can't understand on wiki to this day) so when I link it for you guys to look at help fixing or advice on how to adjust would be great. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 00:24, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: I can help you with the tables, just link the sandbox.--Lirim | Talk 00:34, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

I've been working on getting some BTS-related lists to FL (it's a slow process, unfortunately), but yes, this page needs a revamp. All of the pointless separations (Korean vs. non, "other"... who determined what's "other" and what's not, anyways?) need to be combined into one, like was said above. I think using Trainor's page as the sample may be difficult due to the stark difference in notable noms; maybe Lady Gaga's or Madonna's versions would work nicer as they have a higher number of entries. It's worth noting that you don't have to base FLs on previous ones, though there's usually a reason why the same formats are used over and over again. Other stuff: the lead could use a revamp, the explanations of the various awards can stay but need sources, and the sources themselves need to follow a consistent format. Other more minor stuff (like adding more images where possible, alt text) can be dealt with after the formatting is fixed. I also think it may be better to make a draft rather than putting a in-process version of this page in your sandbox, Carlobunnie. I'll gladly help in the improvement process!

As an aside, it may be worth it to have a BTS-specific WikiProject like many other artists do. Artists with a much smaller number of pages already have them (such the aforementioned Meghan Trainor and Camila Cabello), and it could help get some much-needed changes done faster/easier. I have very little knowledge on how to set one up, though. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 01:53, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

The List of awards and nominations received by Camila Cabello page failed for FLC status, because the current format is all in one table. The Madonna has been a Flc for 8 years. I would go with one table, or we split them up by country. So Korea, US etc.....--Lirim | Talk 02:06, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

@Lirim.Z: I didn't list Cabello's page as a sample of a good list, just a WikiProject. I'm not opposed to just a table, though I do think an explanation of the awards is needed if it doesn't have its own page, maybe via a footnote system or a column for a one-line explanation. An award without context is meaningless. Trainor's page has a handful of other issues (no alphabetic contents box, one image on the entire page) so I'm very opposed to following it verbatim, but it could be a decent starting place. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 02:19, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Small follow-up: listing by country could work if one isn't giving precedence over the other (such as Korea > others), though there would be some sections with just one award/listing. And what should we do with accolades that aren't awards but are treated like them, like world records or a Time 100 placement? An "other notable accolades" section? DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 02:26, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Literally none of the FL articles have different sections like "International" or "other awards", this is what people have been using on K-pop articles for ages for no apparent reason. Accolades like YouTube Diamond play button etc. are not really an awards or nominations either, should be mentioned (it probably already is) at BTS only. For Guiness, see Gaga or Taylor, it should mention only the current records I guess, so the broken records should be deleted. Snowflake91 (talk) 08:56, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Took a look at the other artists lists you guys recommended and they're similar to how the BTS page is currently in terms of format so if I go with how those are done I'd just have to remove the Korean/Intl headers so everything's all in one, reorder alphabetically and filter out the less notable awards as mentioned above. Should I still make a draft like DanielleTH suggested if that's the case, or just edit the page like normal? I originally sandboxed because I thought a table might have been better, but if we're going the Madonna/Gaga/Taylor way then it won't be necessary at all. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 14:51, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Not where I wanted to be before I hit save but I don't have any more time so this is as far as I've gotten for today. I removed the entire "Other" section completely, extracted The Fact Awards from it and included it with everything else reordered alphabetically. Hope my math was correct for the top box. Only 2 or 3 other awards might make it back in so I'll add those next chance I get (or someone else can if they feel one should be added). Leaving the lead revamp/replacement photo for last. I think I checked every single citation and all are good, added archived/missing links where necessary, reworked some of the award descriptions so they don't all sound the same. So like 50% of the way to being redone, but still a looong way to FL status. Feedback is appreciated! -- Carlobunnie (talk) 01:02, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Looks good, just remove the previous Guinness records, or there needs to be a note explaining which record is still current and which were broken, since it says "BTS currently hold seven Guinness World records", but there are ten records listed. There also needs to be "Won" column at the Guinness, like at Taylor Swift or Lady Gaga. The numbers in infobox also seems wrong since the actual number of "{{won}}" parameters in the article is 174 according to browser search, will look into it and fix it. Snowflake91 (talk) 10:03, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie and Snowflake91: Remove the records they no longer hold. It's not their "award" anymore; BTS holding it previously can be mentioned in the prose of the main article. The Order of Cultural Merit is considered a state honor and should be listed seperately (example here). Would it be worth adding mentions on notable listicles (Time 100 and Forbes Korea Power Celebrity, for example)? I'm not really considering if they're listed elsewhere or not, since we don't have to follow any of the sample pages to a T if we consider them notable. Also, Lirim.Z is correct that the "small tables under separate headers" style of list is no longer considered acceptable. I would hate for you to put all this work into updating it and have the list fail its FL nom for organization issues, Carlobunnie. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 16:13, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: The notable lists mentions will go in the lead but I'm leaving that for last. Priority is the table first. Even though I orig mentioned putting them all in one table, you did say Meghan's wasn't a good sample to use for that and then the Madonna/Taylor pages were recommended later in the conversation so I patterned it after those. I misunderstood Lirim.Z's mention about why the Camila page failed, thinking they meant that it was because it was all in one table, and didn't check the archive discussion even though they did say they would go with the one table format so it's my own fault I wasted all that time doing it the wrong way. @Lirim.Z: will you still help me with the table? I'll use the Kylie page moving forward (should I just C+P it to my sandbox and move things around or start from scratch?) @Snowflake91: About the GWR, when I changed it from ten to seven it was because I had misread the record titles (since some are very similar) thinking it was the same records claimed multiple times (there is only 1 record where this actually occurred). This should be the correct list of 9 (to the best of my knowledge/the internet none have been broken by anyone else):

1. 2017 Most viewed music video online in 24 hours by a K-pop group
2. 2017 Most Twitter engagements (average retweets) overall
3. 2017 Most Twitter engagements (average retweets) for a music group
4. 2018 First Korean act to reach No.1 on the Billboard 200 albums chart
5. 2018 First Korean act to reach No.1 on the US Artist 100
6. 2019 Most viewed YouTube music video in 24 hours by a K-pop group
7. 2019 Most viewed YouTube music video in 24 hours (first held in 2017 but reclaimed in 2019 so removed 2017 entry)
8. 2019 Most viewed YouTube video in 24 hours
9. 2019 Best-selling album in South Korea

-- Carlobunnie (talk) 18:16, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: If Lirim isn't able to help you out with the table I will be happy to aid in it, I'm rather good with coding tables. I would say such a big overhaul should be put into a draft space though, so you don't feel pressured to revamp the whole thing in a single edit. Leave your sandbox, even if we aren't using that formatting you did vet the notable awards already. It'll be a wonderful reference as we build the new table. (The new format will be long and take a bit of time to construct, so keeping that as a reference means we definitely don't have to do it in one big edit.) DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 03:44, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: Snowflake91 actually started testing the table format in my sandbox already if you wanted to take a look. I would definitely welcome your help with the table (I struggle w rows). However I'll be at a 3-day convention from today (leaving shortly) until Sunday night (with minimal internet access) so I'll get on it either later tonight if I can or Sunday night as my time will be virtually nonexistent for these next few days. Just in case you don't see any immediate activity from me and want to know why. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 11:23, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: You don't need to apologize for being busy! If you're okay with me editing your sandbox I'll chip away at it, too! DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 22:42, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: No problem at all, feel free to pitch in! More eyes the better to pick up on things I might miss. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 03:00, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91 and DanielleTH: You might notice I restored the '10 guinness world records' bit in the lead. I have a couple questions about one of the particular records I wanna run by you guys before I possibly change it again (to less), so I still listed the 10 in the table for the time being. Been working on the page since this morning and only noticed you guys made some edits when I happened to check my watchlist just now so thought I'd give you a heads up in case you see it and wonder wth I'm doing. Added in the separate section at the bottom for the special medals/awards like with the kylie page. The remaining awards between will be assimilated into the table. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 18:00, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Ill add it here since the page is "in use" so dont want to edit it now, the gaon sources are all linked to the identical archived link, use "refname" to merge them, on the source number 26 (Gaon 2014 Best new artist) replace the source with:

Extended content
<ref name="gaonarchive">{{Cite web|url=http://www.kpopawards.co.kr/history.php|title=Gaon Chart Kpop Awards – Winners|website=www.kpopawards.co.kr|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180224070051/http://www.kpopawards.co.kr/history.php|archivedate=February 24, 2018|dead-url=yes}}</ref>

Then, simply replace source #27, #28, and #30 with only <ref name="gaonarchive"/>. Also, merge "BTS" rows in Genie Music Awards, change rowspan from 5 to 13 and remove "BTS" parameter from Golden Disc Awards "Rookie of the Year" and Genie "The Male Group" (btw, isnt the word "best" missing here and in other Genie awards, or it should be like that?) as it will be merged. Dont worry, if you dont know how to fix those then I will, I just included it there just in case so I wont forget it. Snowflake91 (talk) 18:48, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Oh and there is also the name of the song missing in one of the Guiness Records, it says only "By BTS", it should be "Idol by BTS" Snowflake91 (talk) 19:02, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: World records shouldn't be in the main list of awards. They're adjacent like the Order of Merit, which is why Minogue's page separated them. I can create a sample of the adjacent awards section (I won't call it that) at the bottom of the page for discussion. I'll go ahead and make Snowflake91's changes. Most of the sources need to be rewritten for consistency's sake, anyways. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 20:14, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: Already fixed the row issue in a previous edit. Changed the genie award name but can't find anything in recent articles about the awards showing 'best' included in it. The ref the orig editor included doesn't even work anymore so I'll trawl naver for some working ones one and adjust any other names accordingly.

@DanielleTH: Unsure what world records you're referring to. If you mean the GWR, Kylie's are listed in her Awards&Noms table right after her GQ Men of the Year Award wins and I included BTS' ones in their table the same way. If you're referring to the ones in the State and academic honours section, I was just trying to say that I had jumped ahead (since I was doing the 1st section alphabetically all the time) and created the separate 2nd section (at the bottom of the page) for them to be displayed as they should (as per the kylie page), and that I would get to the remaining awards (i.e. now from MMA's to V Chart Awards in the old format)currently left in the middle of the page afterwards. Sorry if I created any confusion by not explaining myself properly. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 04:30, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: I totally missed that. I did notice they put listcles in the main table as well. I'm confused as to why these accolades are put in the main section when they're not really awards. We don't have to follow Monogue's page exactly since were adapting it to a very different artist, so, with that said, I'm curious about your thoughts on this. Personally, I'd prefer having them both be separated out like the state honors, especially the world records, since we'll need a key that indicates which records they currently hold and which they do not. Cabello's page failed for lots of mini tables for no justifiable reason, but if we're able to justify why certain categories are separated out, we should be fine. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 04:50, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: I understand what you're saying about having them listed separately, and it makes sense if keys will be involved although I had previously thought about just including a fn for any record held prev that was broken before being reclaimed again. That was actually part of what I was referring to in one of my comments above when I mentioned I had some questions for you guys about the GWR, i.e mainly BP breaking the 24 hr views record 2 times(?) iirc but then BTS reclaimed them right after with each successive comeback so they still hold each record right? BP never rec'd any official type of certification/accolade for the brief period of time that they held any record either. There were only BB articles written about receiving confirmation from YT at the point in time. So as far as I can see BTS still hold every single one? Dunno why it feels like I'm making this out to be more complicated than it is. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 05:28, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: They do still hold the 25 hour MV record for example, but BWL holds it, not Idol, so they'd be an indicator that Idol held it for a time. It'll probably be easier for me to strike up a sample. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 06:08, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Few sourcing issues:

• Asia Artist Awards: the archived voting links for 2016 and 2017 editions are identical (dated November 2017), so obviously wrong, 2016 is therefore not sourced. I guess that the link is for Popularity Award – Music, but the two wins (Best Icon Award – Music and Best Artist Award – Music) are not sourced either.
• Golden Disc Awards: all nominations are unsourced, only the winners are in source
• Genie Awards: same as above
• Korean Music Awards nominations seems unsourced as well
• Mnet Asian Music Awards:
  • 2017: Generic link to www.mwave.me/en/mama/Nominees as a source, which not only it doesnt work anymore but its not archived either
  • Many nominations are not sourced (Favorite KPOP Star, 2018 Best Male Group, iQIYI Worldwide Favourite Artist, Best Dance Performance – Male Group etc.)
• 2018 MTV Millennial Awards: source is for nominations only, winners are not mentioned since the source is from before the winners were announced
• 2019 MTV Millennial Awards: no source for nomination Fandom of the Year, the source mentions only the winners

So basically a lot of nominations are unsourced, for FL it would need to be sourced. Snowflake91 (talk) 10:16, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Source for MIAW 2018 wins and for MIAW 2019 Best Fandom nomination. If I find other sources, is it better to edit this page or the draft? --Chiya⁹² 16:25, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

@Chiyako92: You can add it directly to the draft. Just make sure no one else is currently in there already editing. Thanks for the help! -- Carlobunnie (talk) 16:33, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: The 2017/2018 Golden Disc links are good. Nominees in each category are listed on the page with the winner displayed at the top left in a black column. 2019 link also mentions the nominations. Found archive link for 2014 nomination. Will add it in. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 19:40, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

I dont think so, "Golden Disc Asian Choice" 2017 and "Global Popularity Award" 2018 doesnt seems to be anywhere in the source, or maybe I just dont see it. Snowflake91 (talk) 19:47, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

You're right about those 2. I got them mixed up sorry. Initial searches turn up no reliable/english sources mentioning either nomination. Apparently both awards were voted for on the GDA Kor/Chinese mobile apps but that's all I could find (from twitter no less). Checking for Korean sources right now but they don't seem like they're worth mentioning tbh, especially if we can't properly source them. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 20:40, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: @Carlobunnie: Hello all the authors and editors here!! I read the whole discussion. I too would like to help you all in making edits. Firstly I would like to add that BTS has received 2 new nomination in TEEN CHOICE AWARDS FOR CHOICE FANDOM and CHOICE SUMMER TOUR, i found that this new edit (as its released only 2 days before) wasn't made in the DRAFT. So please make the change as its already included in this "BTS AWARDS AND NOMINATION" ACTIVE PAGE already.I have already made this edit with the reference too.

Also I found that V LIVE AWARDS and SOOMPI AWARDS are not included in draft. I think that they should be included as they are being held for so many years and after 2017 Soompi have been mentioned by various NOTABLE sites like (Billboard, Forbes, ABS CBN News, Fuse TV) etc. Also for Vlive there is a proper ceremony held and broadcasted on the V LIVE APP too and hence are notable. I didn't made any edit on the draft myself as I am still new here I wanted to first check from already experienced authors. CookyMooky (talk) 15:16, 9 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

@CookyMooky: Thank you for expressing interest in wanting to help! I'll respond to your concerns in the order you mentioned them:

1) The new TC noms will be added in when we get to that section of the new wip list. Currently we're at M/N.

2) You'll notice that both the VLA/SA were in the 'Other Awards' section. I removed the OA section altogether because compared to all the other awards kept in the main table, those ones were the least notable/some were not notable at all. I did mention in one of my comments above that there are a few awards that I feel should be added back in once we've finished compiling the main list but discussion will take place for us to determine which ones really should be. Ik a lot of ppl feel the SA should make the cut as they've gotten increased coverage over the past 2 years (esp since BTS started winning so many of them) but that doesn't necessarily make it a notable award to be included as it is not on the same level as say the iHRAs that also have a lot of fan voted awards. Reliable sources (BB, Forbes etc) have published articles containing info taken from unreliable sources (twitter, chartdata etc) in the past but that didn't make the information/sources suddenly reliable. Same principle applies here. SA might probably pass notability but I won't include them just yet until some sort of consensus is reached saying for sure.

Hope that answers your questions. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 16:33, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: No i totally agree with you!! There should be a PROPER DISCUSSION and CONSENSUS about which awards to be included from "Other awards" category!!

But i personally still feel V LIVE AWARDS and SOOMPI should be written or alteast mentioned in other awards, because even in the main awards category we mostly look upon for these sites only (like Billboard, Forbes etc) and see the coverage of that award on other additional sites, and then finally record it. So i feel the same should happen with the above mentioned awards, specially for V LIVE AWARDS as it was properly broadcasted and was mentioned in various newsletters.

If all the experienced editors still think its not notable then also its okay!! I just wanted to put my point forward!! CookyMooky (talk) 17:25, 9 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky CookyMooky (talk) 17:24, 9 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

Can you add some sources which covers V LIVE awards? Secondary sources from media, not twitter, facebook, V Live page etc.? If there are no sources and coverage then the awards are non-notable, despite holding a broadcast. Snowflake91 (talk) 16:52, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: Yes there are various sources for V LIVE AWARDS other than their official site and broadcast. This is official NAVER site (the most popular search engine in Korea) https://campaign.naver.com/v/2018globaltop10/en/ and this is from SBS official site: https://www.sbs.com.au/popasia/blog/2019/01/04/v-live-announce-2019-global-top-10-and-artist-prizes and https://www.soompi.com/article/1287445wpp/v-live-announces-2019-global-top-10 (as you only have said Soompi can be used as secondary reference) CookyMooky (talk) 17:24, 9 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

@CookyMooky: Soompi can't be used as an example of coverage because it can't be cited as source, see WP:KO/RS. SBS PopAsia also falls under that category. In terms of the Soompi Awards, I'm pretty indifferent on adding them. Website awards that don't have a real ceremony is included on Monogue's page. You listed publications that mention the Soompi awards but didn't provide any links. Would you mind linking the coverage you mentioned? DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 17:39, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

@Danielle: But V LIVE Awards have a proper award ceremony, coverage and broadcast!! ALSO This is official NAVER site reference (the most popular search engine in Korea) if the other ones are not applicable. https://campaign.naver.com/v/2018globaltop10/en/

And for Soompi awards I still feel they too should be noted as awards are awards even when they are website award. But if you all still think it shouldn't be include, then also its okay, u all are more experienced!! CookyMooky (talk) 17:48, 9 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

Do you have links to the articles on Billboard etc. covering the Soompi Awards? DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 17:51, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Actually Billboard is covering Soompi Awards 1, but if we add it, what will we do with awards prior 2017? If Soompi are added for 2017 and 2018, then it should be added for 2015 and 2016 as well even if awards were not coveraged much, otherwise it would be weird. Snowflake91 (talk) 18:02, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Well they won 1 SA in 2015 and 3 in 2016 so even if there aren't much or any reliable eng sources (given that the awards weren't as widely known then hence less coverage) we might still be able to find a few Korean sources at the very least. Iirc BigHit's official account usually tweets out a link to a Naver article talking about the group's noms/wins after receiving one. I'll try to see if I can find anything. At least we have sources for the later years so half the work is already done. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 18:37, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Im fine with adding soompi awards and all its nominations if there is a source (for wins it should have reliable media reports, but for nominations it could be that youtube videos from soompi or their twiter). Btw change something in the very first sentence of the article, its not good like that, use something like at Taylor Swift. Maybe "South Korean boy band BTS have received many awards and nominations for their music work. BTS was formed in 2013 under Big Hit Entertainment and released their debut single album 2 Cool 4 Skool in 2013." Total numbers of awards and noms should not be mentioned in the first sentence, in other articles it is not mentioned at all. Snowflake91 (talk) 19:14, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: As per my comments above early on in the revamp discussion, the lead will be reworked and improved but I'm leaving that for last. My priority is getting the table in order first and there's still a bit of work to be done finding/replacing citations. I'm not rushing things as I can only work so fast, so I'm tackling the major changes (main table, citations, lead, new photo/s in that order) one at a time. If you wanna have at it in the meantime though you're welcome to start, and we can always polish it up later. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 20:55, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you all for considering my point of adding V LIVE awards and SOOMPI awards!! I too will help you all in finding references for previous years!! CookyMooky (talk) 19:37, 9 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

Snowflake91, Carlobunnie, and anyone else who would like to comment, please tell me what you think of this for the bottom section of the page. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 20:12, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

@Danielle: I personally liked your idea of including a picture to make that look better. And have no problem in including the BTS rankings of various magazine.

But i feel that "World record" should be recorded as it is already done in the main draft of @Carlobunnie i.e. including it in the main section of the list. CookyMooky (talk) 20:55, 9 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

Problem with the version currently on the main page is that there's no way to have the highlighted indicators for which records are no longer held, and the column headings don't make sense (Guinness World Records isn't an award ceremony and the "won" column for a record doesn't make sense). DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 21:37, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

@Danielle: I understand your point but the 2 records no longer held by BTS, was broken by BTS themselves and not someone else in 2019 with their song "boy with luv". Also Guinness world records are proper "plaques" awarded to each record holder (which is kind of award), so even if its included in main section with won column then also its okay according to me because writing them in different column will only lead to increase in usage of space on page and won't look good! — Preceding unsigned comment added by CookyMooky (talk • contribs)

I'm aware that they broke their own record but the table needs those indicators for clarity's sake. Plaques don't make it an award in the same sense a daesang is, in the same way that platinum records get plaques but aren't awards. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)}

@Danielle: I totally understand your point, I just said my view I think we should wait for other experienced editors like you to give them opinions too. And then I think you should made that edit, because its better to have different opinions! :) CookyMooky (talk) 00:58, 10 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

@DanielleTH: They look good, but my only concern is that now there's 3 additional tiny tables below the main awards list rather than just the one for the Honors. Hopefully they won't raise any issues so I guess we can do them like that if no one has any objections and change it later if they do. Also, about the GWR table key wording, maybe it's just me but it reads like they no longer hold the tagged record altogether even though they still do just with a diff song currently. And are these two records supposed to be the same thing (the titles are slightly different though) because they seriously confuse me, which is why I went from 10 records total to 7 to 9 to not being sure of exactly how you're supposed to count the records correctly:

• 2017 Most viewed music video online in 24 hours by a K-pop group DNA (for clarity who holds it now since they no longer hold it?)
• 2019 Most viewed YouTube music video in 24 hours by a K-pop group BWL (or is above no longer held because now it's this?)

-- Carlobunnie (talk) 01:51, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: In terms of tables we can wait and see what reviewers say, if they raise concerns the nominator either justifies it or makes the changes (or otherwise discusses them). The point of FL reviews isn't to shoot something down but to help it get to the extra step needed to get to FL status. This is the first K-pop group awards list that's anywhere close to FL status, so it's a trial run. As a result, we have to use artists who are considerably different as samples due to this, so hiccups are expected. I'm going to assume (?) at least part of the group improving the page will co-nominate it, so we can write up an initial post that explains our reasoning for the section. I reworded the dagger indicator, apologies for the lack of clarity. This was somewhat hard to word, but I think it suffices. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 02:40, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

As a follow up, I can probably adapt the listicle section to the main table if you would like/feel they're similar enough to be merged. I'm rather in favor of this, since the biggest reason the other two are separated out is due to needing custom keys.DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 02:53, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: Just change 'an' to 'a' in the key and you're good to go. I don't think that 'now-former' really needs to be hyphenated either but that's like a case of potayto/potahto tbh. And like you said, this article is the first of its kind so we'll see how it's received. Reviewers might have better ideas for the wording of the key for all we know. You can go ahead and insert the listicles into the table if you prefer. Do you want to do it now? Because I was cleaning up the MAMA citations but I can save and exit so you can go ahead. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 03:42, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: You can finish up with what you need to on the page, I have to fix the citations in the section before I move them onto the main draft. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 03:46, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: @Carlobunnie: I have found sources for 2016 Soompi awards and V live awards, so please let me know whenever you will be adding those two awards in the draft, I will add these citations! And i am still working for 2015 Soompi citation! CookyMooky (talk) 14:41, 10 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

@DanielleTH: Sorry i didn't mean to disturb your editing but I couldn't see the "IN USE" NOTIFICATION as I was making an edit even before you came and I forgot to add "IN USE" template!!

I was updating "MTV MIAW 2019" as the results are out now, so the "pending nominations" need to be changed to "Won" in MTV Millennial Awards Brazil as BTS have won in both the categories in Kpop exlosion and fandom of the year. I have even found proper citation for the above. Please let me know when you are done with your edit so that I can make this one!! :) CookyMooky (talk) 15:25, 10 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

@CookyMooky: No worries! Please remember to place the template {{in use}} at the top of the page below {{sandbox}} while you work! There's a lot of us working on the project, which is great, but we can overlap sometimes. Feel free to fix what you need to, now. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 15:27, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Just a general note to all: looking at other FLs that follow our format, it looks like they organize the list by award, year, then alphabetically (as in, the awards from GDA 2017 are alphabetized). That may mess up sourcing, and it looks like right now the list is organized by wins first then noms, which should be okay as long as they're organized somehow. I know you're working on sources Carlobunnie and I don't want to mess you up, so I'll leave it alone for now. CookyMooky, thank you for finding the source, just don't forget to add a title! DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 15:35, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: Okay!! Done. CookyMooky (talk) 15:47, 10 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

@DanielleTH: God I didn't think to check if that was a thing. I didn't even know listing awards alphabetically was a thing. We can reorder them I guess if it would read better. I was just trying to avoid listing the same award too many times on the table (esp if they win it consecutively, like the AAA Popularity Award for eg which is a minority instance) although in some cases you really wouldn't be able to avoid doing that depending on what else was won. And watching how this section on the talk page has grown I'm reconsidering your draft suggestion so that any further discussion can take place in the appropriate space instead of cluttering up here. I really should have done it earlier but didn't think things would grow this big. Also, is there any way to link/archive/transfer this revamp section to the talk page of the draft? Would love to have had all of this connected to it somehow but ah well T_T -- Carlobunnie (talk) 16:38, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Why are now Forbes and Time 100 included in the main table? Those are not an awards. Snowflake91 (talk) 16:20, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: The discussion's a little higher up due to concerns with the smaller tables, the listcles didn't need a key and with other FL samples it's unclear what not-award awards (for lack of a better word) can be put where. I've made both versions and can put the separate table back and wait for the FL nom for further discussion, if that'd be easier. @Carlobunnie: For the relocation, I believe you should be fine if you just move the page via the move button up top, then cleaning out your sandbox so it doesn't redirect. You'd move it to Draft:List of awards and nominations received by BTS and replace the sandbox template with {/{template|Draft article|List of Awards and Nominations received by BTS|brief=yes|subject=music}/}. If anything goes wrong there's always getting an admin to WP:HISTMERGE. That'll probably be needed anyways since the draft's edit history needs to be on the main page when it's eventually replaced. In terms of this discussion, we can just continue the discussion there and put some notice at the end of this one that it's moved. (Though when the draft is put onto the main page, its talk page discussion will follow, so it may not be necessary.) DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 17:13, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: Do I remove the sandbox template before I click move? I wanna move it asap. Haven't had to do this since my INU article so I don't even remember what I back did then. Ah nvm, figured it out lol. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 19:14, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: I must have missed that!! Actually the problem is that all the reliable sites are mentioning only the main category awards IN TEEN CHOICE AWARDS i.e. Choice International artist and Choice collaboration. Hence I thought until I get a better source for Choice Fandom and Choice Summer tour I should mention it for temporary purpose!! As I am still researching a better source for the latter.CookyMooky (talk) 16:58, 10 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

@Carlobunnie: @DanielleTH: In the main draft "The Hall Of Stars Awards" held in SPAIN 2018 is not recorded, any special reason for that?? I researched on it and found few sources for the same. So should I add those awards in the main list or not?? I wanted to confirm before making any wrong edit as I am not sure. Sources:https://www.koreaboo.com/news/bts-wins-2-awards-spanish-award-ceremony-hall-stars-awards-2018/ and This is from SBS NEWS official site not "SBS POP ASIA" https://news.sbs.co.kr/news/endPage.do?news_id=N1004741873 Please check BOTH THE SITES and let me know! CookyMooky (talk) 17:49, 10 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

@CookyMooky: For now, no further awards will be added to the list (with the possible exception of the Soompi awards and maybe maybe Vlive). If you check through the discussions above you will see mentioned why I removed what I removed and why what is currently in the table was kept. The MOST NOTABLE awards are what we're going with. Both sources you have there are unreliable. Please check this listing WP:KO/RS for what you can and cannot use as sources. And about the TCAs and sourcing in general, it's usually best to wait until you have found a source that is good/reliable and then add it, rather than using a temporary (and oftentimes unreliable) one in the meantime. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 18:19, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: I too was a bit doubtful about those awards that's why i first asked!! Okay!! Got it!! CookyMooky (talk) 18:27, 10 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

Snowflake91, DanielleTH, Lirim.Z, Chiyako92, list has been moved from sandbox to draftspace here. Heading over to its talk page. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 19:48, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Issues with MAMA citations

Searches for articles about the UnionPay Album of the Year nominations have turned up nothing. The MAMA 2015 wiki article is useless (that had 2016 nominees linked) and Mwave doesn't have an official announcement video for AOTY that I can tell (but I found ones for ArtOTY and SOTY which I don't need). And the multitude of articles about the winning album don't mention the others nominated alongside it in the category so Snowflake91 it looks like for 2015 there'll only be a BMG nom cite and the list of winners cite. If anyone else can find anything then cool. It'll be slow going with the rest of the MAMA section for now because I get easily stressed out when I can't find what I'm looking for and I can already tell this will take me longer than usual to get through. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 20:11, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: So this sent me on a rather long hunt and the strangest thing is that AotY was never covered anywhere online publicly, from reliable or unreliable sources. Soompi covered the noms but AotY isn't listed, and the RS that shared the noms also didn't mention AotY. The only way I was able to find the noms was by finding a recording of the actual MAMA broadcast, where the album was shown as part of the nominees. You might have to use {{Cite AV media}} and cite the broadcast directly. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 15:14, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: was what you found an official recording (like from Mwave/Mama directly/naver video upload by news media) or an unofficial recording? Please link me to it when you can. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 16:32, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: It was not an official upload, and it doesn't look like anything was posted to tv.naver.com. As far as I know, only the MMAs post videos of artists winning the actual awards. This doesn't mean you still can't cite it as the source using the AV Media tempalte, especially since, truthfully, it is the source we're relying on. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 21:43, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

There is no prior nominations for albums AFAIK, they reveal top5 albums only at the ceremony in a broadcast. Snowflake91 (talk) 16:39, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: My search for sources was based on your comment from the other talk page about the MAMA section: "...Many nominations are not sourced...". I started checking each nomination one by one thinking you meant we needed to have sources for all of them. I didn't recall there being no prior nominations for some of the major MAMA awards. Are there any other Korean awards I should be advised of that would have no prior nominations so I don't waste time looking for them as I go down the list? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 18:19, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

BTS actually was nominated for 2015 artist of the year, but source for that would be hard to find. Pretty much every artist that is nominated in at least one category is also nominated for AotY, so its ~50 nominations, but then they shortlist this to the final 5. There is actually a template for that at Template:Sho, for that case it should be "longlisted" or something. Snowflake91 (talk) 08:53, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Kor Broadcasting Awards fn ref

For the KBAs, I want to use the 2017 win ref as the ref for the footnote also, but when I tried to do it the table got messed up in the preview. I'm guessing there's a special way to link it but idk how so can someone do it? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 21:34, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: Done. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 04:14, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Just Jared/Just Jared Jr as reliable sources?

I've been looking for a reliable replacement Eng source for the 2019 TCA Choice Summer Tour but so far no luck. Reliable ones that mentioned the second wave nominations only wrote about the TV noms with no coverage of the additional music noms, except for Just Jared Jr who posted the full second list of nominees. Can't find anything on wikipedia calling it an unreliable source but the only reason i'm partially hesitant is because parent site JJ is generally famous for its entertainment gossip coverage, even though it's also known for providing breaking entertainment news as well. Idk if the gossip bias would be applied to JJ Jr/tip it into unreliable territory. Thoughts? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 03:27, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Just Jared is not a reliable source as it's a gossip magazine. I found a reliable radio station covering the news with a credited author, so we can use that. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 17:38, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Do we need to add wikilinks for every single ref?

DanielleTH I noticed you added wikilinks for a bunch of citations in the lead (didn't scroll all your edits) but I recall an editor on another page telling me a while back that repetitive wikilinking was unnecessary for citations and that's why earlier today I removed them from your listicles/world records section and elsewhere on the page. I feel like the earliest citation(s) in the article can have the wikilink but ones after that don't need them added in again. As for 'work/website' I'm still sifting through the page and trying to put the correct parameters so there'll be more that you find because I either just didn't see it or haven't gotten there yet. Also there's some 'cite news' that I thought I changed to 'cite web' but apparently a few slipped past me. I've seen other editors add the language parameter even if the link was in English so I was just following that, sorry. If I'm making a lot of tiny but very obvious mistakes it's because I've been staring at my pc screen for hours on end these past few days so multiple apologies. Fun fact: I was editing all this time and just went to save only to realise you went in because i didn't use the tag and now I want to die. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 01:35, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: I just did a big edit replacing website and some other stuff, so if you're editing currently, be warned on that. I think I put the template up but I'm not sure how long you've been editing. In terms of wikilinking, see MOS:REPEATLINK: "Citations stand alone in their usage, so there is no problem with repeating the same link in many citations within an article." It's a preference thing in the end, and usually I like doing it because of the fact that citations are used just once. One person clicking on one citation won't know if it was linked previously in a citation they didn't check. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 01:39, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: I was editing before you put the tag lol. My fault for forgetting it when I went in. Ok, noted. I'll add them back wherever else I removed them because I'm going back in now. Any reason you removed all the translations for the non-english citations? I read that eng translations should be provided wherever possible. Think I saw that on an MOS/FL criteria and somewhere else. I don't want to be giving anyone extra work to do but I edited based on what I read on wiki and then you basically undid a lot of it. I would like to be on the same page to avoid wasting my time doing something going forward. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 01:49, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: I probably should've discussed that with you first, apologies. I can put them back since I removed them. My reasoning is that for FLs citations are expected to be as uniform as possible, meaning that if some non-English articles have translated titles, they all do. More lacked them then had them, so I figured they were leftovers from the older page. Translated titles are very helpful truthfully, but there are 57 of them, which may be a lot. (I think this said it in an edit summary but I figured I would mention it again -- you don't need to indicate language when it's an English source. The language indicator doesn't show up in the citation because sources are assumed to be in English unless otherwise stated.) DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 01:54, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: I'm all clear on the no lang param necessary for Eng citations so I won't repeat that again (i might have added it in a couple of places but the majority were brought over from the orig article). If there any instances left I'll remove them. With regards to the non-eng citations, only some had translations because I was slowly working my way through and adding them as I went (sometimes in order, sometimes not). I'll re-add the trans-titles. I don't think it should be a problem come review time about there being so many translated titles because they are a foreign artist so a lot of their coverage would come from predominantly non-eng sources for the majority of their awards. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 02:09, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: Great, thanks again for writing up the translations. As long as they're all there the citations will be acceptable. I'll hunt for missing sources in the mean time. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 02:11, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Youngest recipients

@Carlobunnie and Snowflake91: Is mentioning that BTS are the youngest recipients of the Order of Merit worth noting via a footnote? It's worth mentioning somewhere on the page, but I feel like it belongs in the caption under the photo to the right and/or in the lead. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 01:19, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Looking at the edit history, I believe you were the one who added it, Carlobunnie, so I'll direct this question mostly to you. Changing the caption would be rather easy: "BTS at the ninth Korean Popular Culture and Arts Awards, where they became the youngest recipients of the Hwagwan Order of Cultural Merit." DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 01:23, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

It really should be in the lead. Apologies for the blunder. You can remove it. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 05:48, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Removed it today. Couldn't last night when I replied above because I had to give up the pc I was using (and sorry if I sounded kind of abrupt). -- Carlobunnie (talk) 23:46, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

What to do abt links that are not dead currently but don't archive properly?

So there are a few sites in the refs that display horribly when you try archiving them. Even past archived links display without photos that appear on the live page currently, or they do not allow you to click to the respective tab on the web page to view the nomination/win notice, hence the reason I didnt include archived links for some references. Yin yue tai V Chart Awards is one example ("korean" tab). Ik that obv the next best thing would be to find articles on the noms/wins and use those since most archive perfectly., but I like keeping the orig websites as much as we can. For general knowledge sake, is there any way to work around the archiving issues? I also wondered if it was maybe my browser and all the filter plugins that were affecting how I was seeing the pages but they didnt appear any differently on incognito so I guess that's not it either. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 01:49, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: See if archive.is works, when you save a page there a “screenshot” tab will also be available. That may document the page even if the html can’t be saved. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 16:13, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Replacement group photo for lede

Would we be able to use this [1] as a suitable replacement? I've been hunting for some time for a new one. K-media might have as well but I haven't gone thru Naver yet. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 05:23, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

It's a photo by Reuters and it doesn't seem released under a Creative Commons license. I think the most recent photo of them holding an award at Commons is the 2017 one after the BBMAs. --Chiya⁹² 12:35, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Yeah I saw that but I was hoping we could use a more recent photo since that one is 2 yrs old. Most reliable eng sources I found have either Reuters or UPI photos that upon further checking require licenses so those are out (and those photos are perfect for the article, sigh). On to Naver I guess. Hopefully someone from k-media might have a useable picture. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 04:53, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

2015 MMA Top 10 Artists

I saw the Top 10 Artists nomination at 2015 Melon Music Awards was removed, but judging from this page, it looks like it actually happened. Correct me if I'm wrong. --Chiya⁹² 12:35, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

@Chiyako92: Ik the nom has been listed on the current article for the longest while but the ref used for the 'nomination' to me doesn't really prove they were nominated. It only shows the artist that topped the voting, the photos of other artists in the bg aren't labelled w ranking positions or vote percentages nor do they show everyone else who would've been part of the original voting pool, so that's really why I excluded it. Naver only talked about the actual Top10 w no mention of BTS so I thought it was a mistake. The link you shared above clearly shows they were originally nominated so thank you so much for that (it's perfect!). I'll add the nom back in and use your ref and I'll also change it on the current article as well. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 16:47, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Korean Popular Culture and Arts Awards and Soompi and V live awards

@Carlobunnie: @DanielleTH: U have mentioned "Korean Popular Culture and Arts Awards" as "state honors" in a different table not main table which is okay but you have NOT COUNTED them as awards and LISTED THEM "IN AWARD SUMMARY BOX". I personally feel they should be counted, as proper award ceremony is held and individual awards are given to each members specially "Order of cultural merit". Hence I have added that in the "AWARD COUNTING BOX"

Also Sorry I had my exams and hence wasn't active here, I actually wanted to ask that when you all are going to add Soompi and Vlive awards?? So that I too can help because I found sources for 2017 awards!! Please let me know!! and if there is any other thing any of u need help with then also I am more than ready!! CookyMooky (talk) 17:16, 15 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

If you're talking about soompi 2017 winners, we already have billboard sources for that for like whole year so not needed, find reliable media sources for Vlive instead (NOT primary sources like official Vlive website which is hosted on naver, this is a primary source created by Vlive and doesnt prove notability of the awards). Snowflake91 (talk) 18:26, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: Okay!! I will report here as soon as I find something for 2016 V Live. CookyMooky talk) 18:33, 15 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

@CookyMooky: Just letting you know I added the Soompi Awards in so please check the edit history for my notes before you add anything for 2015/2016 ok? (if you were planning to that is) If you have sources for either of those years feel free to share them here so we can check that they're good to use. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 04:47, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: I am still working on Soompi and Vlive, sorry its taking a lot of time,as it is a bit tough to find that (they weren't popular award shows back then)!! I will notify you here as soon as I found sources for the 2016 awards so that you can first check it, before I make any changes!! CookyMooky (talk)

Infobox is messed up again, its 163 wins in Awards and nominations section + 2 wins from State honors = 165, but it says 166. Snowflake91 (talk) 18:49, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

I thought you had fixed that the other day? That's why I reverted Cooky's edit to it. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 19:13, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Of course I did, but since then someone changed MAMA 2015 world performer from won to nominated, mistake? Snowflake91 (talk) 19:17, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Edit history says it was DanielleTH yesterday. Think she changed it to Nom in error when she was switching around the awards order. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 19:44, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: @Carlobunnie: I know you all know better but I just checked that all awards are mentioned in there except "Korean Popular Culture and Arts Awards/state honors" That why I made that edit and added those 2 wins & 3 nominations back on the INFOBOX. Even something like STATE HONORS is also not mentioned in the table. Except that every award is mentioned. I request you all to look into that matter or else the number of awards and nomination counting will go wrong!! CookyMooky (talk)

Yup the MAMA error was on my end, apologies. I've been alphabetizing the individual awards per FL standards and have been doing my best to not mix things up, but with all the rowspans it can be a little tricky. If I change a win to a nom or vice versa without explaining why, it was a mistake. In terms of the Korean Popular Culture and Arts Awards, I don't see them in the main infobox. I could understand an argument for including them since they are technically awards, just a different and usually more important kind. (Versus the other two which are notable accolades that can't really be put anywhere else.) DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 22:33, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

No need to apologize. I figured the rearranging would be tricky so it's cool. We've got multiple eyes on here anyway so someone will eventually pick up on any flubs any of us make. I understand the argument for why they should be included in the top box but at the same time the Kylie page doesn't include the Honors she's rec'd in her topbox either (as far as I can tell). Ik we don't have to follow any other page to the letter but just pointing it out. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 03:20, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Soompi Fandom nominations are not sourced, when I originally included those videos as a source in January I couldn't find it. Snowflake91 (talk) 09:34, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I added this source, I dont know if its reliable since its a blog, but its written by official and verified Twitter Korea account with over 1 million followers. Snowflake91 (talk) 10:26, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91:I think the official twitter account source should be reliable but if the particular section doesn't past muster when we nominate it for review then we'll just remove it entirely altogether. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 21:36, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

If YouTube cannot be used as a source then simply delete entire soompi awards, because you wont find nominations anywhere else. Snowflake91 (talk) 20:50, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't think there is problem in using Youtube just for nomination, because though Soompi award winner list has been mentioned on Billboard etc but its nomination list is only present at their official site or at their official Youtube account only. So using Youtube's reference just for nomination is okay according to me and for actual awards we already have the sources!! CookyMooky talk) 21:04, 16 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

@Snowflake91: (Edited my comment because I just saw DanielleTH's comment in the edit history) I didn't have time last night to make all the changes to the Soompi section so I left them as is. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 21:36, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: I researched on the LINK @Snowflake91 gave me FOR V LIVE AWARDS and finally found all these articles stating their awards of 2019 and 2018 All sources are from "The Korea Herald" which according to WP:KO/RS are notable. All 4 awards BTS WON IN 2019 V LIVE AWARDS (best artist, best channel, best V original and video of the year) source and 2 awards BTS WON IN 2018 V LIVE AWARDS (Global top 10) source AND (The Most Hearted Star of Vietnam) source Now I am finding source for the only award (Global top 10 award) BTS won in 2017 V LIVE award show in the same link!! CookyMooky (talk)

@CookyMooky: Korea Herald sources are fine. I'll check the rest of your sources after you add them. Thanks for finding them! -- Carlobunnie (talk) 21:36, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: I have added all the V LIVE awards with proper citations from Korea Herald, except just one "Global top 10 award - 2017" I am still working on this particular award, But for the time being I have written Naver's site citation for it (Temporary) and I am done with my edit so please double check it once!! CookyMooky (talk)

Somewhat unrelated but to everyone: please remember to organize each award ceremony by wins first followed by noms, then within that alphabetize. I'm working on doing that as I clean up citations but setting it up correctly when you add it can save so much time. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 04:03, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: Just removed the soompi section. Will help you out with the alphabetical reordering tmrw once I have pc access. Don't wanna risk it on mobile. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 04:37, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I've just finished another bit of hunting across naver/google, and Wikipedia in general, to finally make up my mind about the SA after all the comments above since I put them back in last night. We orig excluded them due to the fact that even though they've received increased coverage over the past few years that coverage is still very limited and the most editors consider them to be not as notable as other awards. Part of me still thought enough reliable sources existed to warrant keeping them in but:

• 1) locating older sources turned out to be more difficult than I anticipated.
• 2) we're also having difficulty finding replacement sources for more recent years as well since the majority of sources come directly from Soompi.
• 3) if these awards are as important as @CookyMooky: has been advocating they are (and I wanted to give Cooky the benefit of the doubt first rather than steamrolling a no over them) then surely they would be included on the pages of all the other artists who have also won them right? But I checked, 10 diff wiki articles for other kpop groups (exo, nct, mx, svntn, got7, bigbang, twice, ikon, girls generation [FL], bp), and nowhere on their awards/noms list articles are their SA noms/wins mentioned.

Clearly they're not as important as has been argued for them in the past if references to them can't be properly sourced or sourced at all. With the BTS page being the only one (or one of the very few since I haven't checked every single artist's page) to currently still include them, I feel it's more due to fans liking seeing a high number of wins/noms in the top box hence all the disturbance any time someone attempts to remove lesser awards from the article rather than understanding that the SA simply don't cut it. We gave it a fair chance here for inclusion but it can't fully meet notability requirements so I firmly believe 100% that the Soompi Awards aren't worth including at all and I would like to take them out once I can edit the page again. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 23:18, 16 July 2019 (UTC) forgot to tag Snowflake91 and DanielleTH -- Carlobunnie (talk) 00:59, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

As of right now four sources used are unreliable, and the source for 2019 only lists winners so the nominees are fully unsourced. If the Soompi Awards don't have the media coverage needed to fix that then they fail the notability requirements. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 03:59, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: @DanielleTH: @Snowflake91: I checked Soompi is included there in the other awards sections of all these artists TWICE, GOT7, GFRIEND, MONSTA X, NCT, STRAY KIDS wiki pages !! (mostly they all have used Youtube for nomination and a proper article/official twitter notes for award)The thing I wanted was to include everything they have won, as then only this page will be more informative according to me and not to exclude even one award just because its a website award!! We all assumed the same for V LIVE awards right, but in the end we could find proper sources!! I still feel they should be recorded if not of previous years when Soompi didn't have that wide coverage but atleast of 2018 AND 2019(as billboard, hollywood life have reported the winners list starting from 2018 only) also because at one point you will have to add those if not in 2019 then 2020, as now Soompi is getting even more media coverage then previews years for kpop related stuff. Also we just can't remove whole section of an award if we couldn't find nomination for previous years.I tried my best to convince you all and will request u all to consider my point again but if u still think the same then also its okay u all know better!!CookyMooky (talk)

2017-onwards Soompi awards are easily notable, with coverage in major outlets like Yonhap or Billboard, there is just no sources for nominations outside of primary sources which is obvious, there are several awards in this article which doesnt have nominations outisde their own website. Those awards were included in all articles, but at some point they were deleted because Soompi is considered as unreliable. I even found 2015 winners at Yonhap. "BigBang came out on top over the likes of seven-member boy band Bangtan Boys (BTS)" means a reliable source for Best Male Group nomination for example, apparently there are enough sources even for pre-2017 awards. If someone who knows Korean fluently can search in Korean sources, there would probably be some coverage as well. Snowflake91 (talk) 08:39, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: That's what I'm concerned about, we can't cite Soompi. I'm decent at navigating Naver so I can see if anything was posted there. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 18:26, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH, Snowflake91, Chiyako92, and CookyMooky: I just wanted to clarify a couple things regarding what i said above:

• when i checked all those other artists pages for the SA it didnt even occur to me to check the 'other awards' sections because i thought if they're that notable they must have been put into their own separate section up with all the other main awards by now. But they weren't, so i thought those pages no longer contained them. I apologize for not checking properly.
• with regards to the sources, i thought they needed to list all the nominees for the category mentioned (2015 best male group had 10) and since i couldnt find a reliable one that did that i dismissed the yonhap article (i did come across it in my searches and even bookmarked it in a wiki resources folder i have) since it only mentioned 3 groups (even though it shows bts was a nominee). Another misunderstanding on my part.
• i was also not aware that we could pick and choose which years of an award show/ceremony to include, especially if some years could not be sourced. My searches had turned up nothing useful (based on what i thought was required) and no one else had found anything reliable for 2017 up to just before I removed the section so i took it out because if 2015/2016 couldnt be sourced, and we couldnt find suitable nomination replacements for the 2017 yt video sources since nowhere else listed them, then that was half of the section and it didnt make sense to me to keep only half of the awards. If you guys find sources on naver/elsewhere that can work then great. Problem solved and the section will go back in easy peasy.

I think i need to take a break for a bit from editing because I've been making some really stupid mistakes recently and idk if it's because I'm tired from pushing myself really hard over a wikipedia page of all things (even though i said before i was gonna take my time w this project), or why really, but it stresses me out when I dont see something that's right there on a page or I misunderstand what everyone else seems to know. I don't wanna mess up the article or give anyone additional work to clean up after me. So again I'm really sorry and good luck with the rest of it. There are far more capable editors than me anyways. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 06:16, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Hello everyone!! I actually found a korean site Source who is reporting Soompi awards (of 2016) I researched on it and have already found 2 articles citing nomination for 2016 soompi (which I have added in the draft)!! CookyMooky (talk) 16:09, 22 July 2019 (UTC)CookyMooky

I've been searching sources for Soompi Awards, but I'll leave them here for checking before adding them to the draft:

• Soompi Awards 2013 -> Rookie of the Year (won)
• Soompi Awards 2017 -> all nominations
• Soompi Awards 2018 -> Best Male Group (nom)

--Chiya⁹² 09:42, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

@Chiyako92: I am not sure about the 1st source you mentioned for Soompi awards 2013, but the other two sources seem fine to me. But I think you should wait until DanielleTH and Carlobunnie too verifies these sources as I often get confused between sources notability. CookyMooky (talk)

@Chiyako92: Kstyle source is good. Breaktudo appears reliable as well (I browsed five sections of the website and it looks okay, no gossip-ish things that I could tell). Destinationkpop seems to be a fan run kpop site/portal. There's nothing to indicate they're a reliable source from everything I've read/browsed, which is a shame because their piece on soompi is exactly the type of article we need. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 03:26, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Destination K-Pop is run by this company which doesn't have anyd publishing credentials. I looked into their authors who have zero public credentials as well; all of their social media was fan accounts. I don't think it's reliable. Starting with 2017 all the Soompi Awards were broadcast on Viki, so we can cite that. Also, I feel like I should clarify that the "2013 Soompi Awards" for our case is "2014" since they hold the awards at the start of the year for the year prior. (Think GDAs and SMAs.) DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 15:54, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

I think to speed this up we should just cite broadcasts — 2015 it was broadcast Myx TV, and in 2016 Rakuten distributed it. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 14:18, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: as in we cite the broadcasts for the remaining nominations tagged w 'cn' or u mean just use the broadcasts for each year across the board? I was thinking we could just use the broadcasts for the remaining noms that still need citations since sources were already found for everything else so far, or do you think it would look more uniform to use one cite ref for each year? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 17:29, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Just for the missing ones! DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 18:19, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Alphabetization

@DanielleTH: Need some clarification please, before I sort the wrong way (though I can always correct what Ive already done if need be):

1. BBMAs: should it read as 2017/2018 TSA>2019 Top Duo/group>2019 TSA (sorted by wins in order of year then alphabetically within year) or 2017-2019 TSA>2019 Top Duo/group (which puts wins for same award first and then other win listed after)?
2. EPCAs: Group of the Year>Social Celebrity of the Year>Music Video of the Year>Song of the Year (sorted alphabetically by award name but listed by Nominee first ("BTS") since the AAA rowspan covers it), OR GoTY>MVoTY>SCoTY>SOTY which is alphabetically by award name only?
3. GMAs: Best Rap/Hip Hop Performance+Song of the Year"FL/Idol">Best-Selling Artist of the Year"BTS" (this is how its currently listed in table which is sorted by shared Nominee FL first) OR BRHHP>BSAoTY>SOTY"FL, Idol" (which is alphabetically by award name)

Similar occurrences might come up as i go down the table but clarity on these will help me going forward overall. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 04:01, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: Thank you for helping with this, I've had less time to be on Wikipedia recently. It should be wins first, then noms, and within that alphabetical. See the Seoul Music Awards as a sample, as that's been done already. This was the formatting most of the table was in already so I'm just helping it be uniform. Also, if alphabetization causes a source to be needed further on the page but blocked, I suggest naming the source (I can help if needed) rather than just having two sources in one large box. It helps readers. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 14:06, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: Got it. Re: the sources, it just didnt occur to me to number them so I put those 2 together in one box but I'll remember for future editing. I'll fix the few alphabetization concerns I had when you're finished editing, unless you correct those while you're in there. Also, about missing sources for noms, should I use ones that show the longlisted nominees or the shortlisted? As an eg, I found one for the 2019 SMAs that longlisted the Hallyu Special award nominees (and all the other awards actually), but what I ended up using was one that mentioned only the shortlisted final 3 nominees and who won by what percent. What kind would be considered better since both show bts being nominated? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 16:36, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: I'd say either works fine. Shorter may be better since it's just less to slog through, but I personally would prioritize how reliable the publication is, followed by if it's in English or not. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 16:41, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Quick follow up, feel free to edit what you need to. I'm just splitting sources right now and the notif is lingering since I have to do some real life stuff in between. It's pretty simple to fix after an edit conflict though (just adding rows and adjusting rowspans) so I should be alright. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 16:44, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

2018 Asia Artist Awards

There's an error with 2018 Asia Artist Awards wins: Popularity Award – Music was won, as stated by the ref provided for the other awards. On the other hand, the template count is correct. --Chiya⁹² 14:51, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I'll fix that in this big edit I'm doing. For some reason it was changed to nom... it could be a result of the alphabetization. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 15:12, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

@Chiyako92: that was my fault. I changed it to Nom by mistake and didn't notice the error. I was using my friend's macbook to edit last night and the keypad was giving me a bit of trouble, hence the change and the typos in the 'Time' headings you had to correct. I was unable to remove the misplaced text. Sorry about that. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 16:46, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: It's no problem, no need to apologize. ;) --Chiya⁹² 16:53, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Golden Disc Awards 2016

Found archived voting links for the Global Popularity Award nomination. Page shows all the nominees during the voting period to the top of the page and then lower down explains how the votes are tallied to determine the winner. My question is: should I use an archived link dated during (Dec 2015) the voting period, or one after it closed on Jan 10, 2016 (earliest archive is dd Mar 4, 2016)?

• http://archive.today/2015.12.20-053433/http://isplus.live.joins.com/award/30goldendisc/en/vote_abroad.aspx (Dec 22)
• https://web.archive.org/web/20160304083328/http://isplus.live.joins.com/award/30goldendisc/en/vote_abroad.aspx (Mar 4, page notes voting is closed)

Either way BTS is not in the winning position but the latter would obv show a more accurate depiction of the nomination/vote tally. Maybe I'm splitting hairs but to me it makes a difference. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 21:03, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

I think the latter is the best option. --Chiya⁹² 09:19, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

@Chiyako92: I was thinking the same as well. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 17:53, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

2017 GDA Asian Choice

1. So apparently the award is actually called the 'Asia Popularity Award'? (eng articles that I found) I changed the name accordingly (translators rendered the hangul that way as well).
2. I used '골든 디스크 시상식아시아 인기상을 2017' & '골든 디스크 시상식아시아 인기상을 투표' to search on Naver and every relevant article result I opened only mentions the award being 100% voted for by fans and Jaejoong winning. No mention of other nominees.
3. This article says voting was done on Weibo? I dunno if there's a Chinese source about it but I got nothing so if someone can find something that would be great. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 20:54, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, voting was done via Weibo. Jaejoong Soompi forum thread provided voting link, but the archived page has rules only, no nominees. --Chiya⁹² 08:56, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

This article mentions it, says Jaejoong is in second for the award behind Shinee, and mentions the other nominees, including BTS. Found it through Naver. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 16:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Oh thank God! Nice work finding that!!! I can breathe a sigh of relief now lol. One step closer to the finish line. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 16:40, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you

I would like to thank the editors creating this page for their work developing/altering tables for the purpose of reformatting a list of individual tables into a singular table. I would not have been able to proceed with my current FL nomination without this page as a guide to speedily reformat my article. I look forward to seeing this list soon become a FL also, as it will surely sail through a nomination. NicklausAU 00:32, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Nominated

There would need to be an explanation (something like "key" in the State honors section) why are there 3 different colours of "nominations". I see that the "shortlisted" template is used, so it should also read "shortlisted" then, or use a key to explain that the silver "nominated" is the second place finish (I guess?), while the gold "nomination" is a shortlist (top 5?) or something. Snowflake91 (talk) 08:32, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

And "Seoul Metropolitan Government" is not really an award, why was this added to the main table now? Its just a plaque or some kind of a one-time recognition for promoting tourism, not an actual awards ceremony. Snowflake91 (talk) 16:20, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: Though a special award ceremony was not held for "Seoul Metropolitan award" but this award was given to BTS in MAMA HONGKONG 2018 red carpet ceremony by the head official of SMG on behalf of the Korean Government and got full coverage along with all other MAMA 2018 awards on notable sites like KOREAN TIMES, HERALD etc !! Also they got this award for spreading and promoting "Hallyu" (BTS is their ambassador)[2] rather than only for "tourism". Also Guinness world records are also plaque and but are still recorded, this is why I added that in the table as I really don't see any reason to remove it!! But if you still think this award shouldn't be recorded then you can remove it!! CookyMooky (talk) 17:00, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Its not an award ceremony, its a decoration/recognition plate, if this is part of the MAMA awards ceremony then include it in Mama section. Snowflake91 (talk) 17:47, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: Okay I will make this edit!! CookyMooky (talk)

No leave it like that then, it has nothing to do with MAMA Awards apparently, even though this shouldnt really be in the table at all probably. Snowflake91 (talk) 17:54, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: I decided to try it out last night while source hunting (your comment from above in the mama section prompted the change) to see how it looked in the table. I think it's better than just 'nominated' due to no coverage being available for these particular noms. I still have to adjust it, as you noticed, and I'll create a key/footnote, but it's a good way to handle these particular ones right? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 17:45, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Yup, its more precise if there are shortlisted/longlisted awards, but it needs a key of some kind, otherwise someone can just guess why are colours different. Snowflake91 (talk) 17:47, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: I read the article for the plaque, it's just a non-competitive award selected by the government of Seoul to a handful of K-Pop groups for tourism contributions (groups like SF9 also got it). I had thought it was related to the ambassador thing but they're actually unrelated. It's presented by the MAMA Awards, so I feel like we include it, we can put it there, just with a note. Where it is now feels a little odd since the Seoul Metropolitan Government isn't an award ceremony. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 16:28, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Delete it, if this is so important it can be mentioned in the lead, but its not a state honour either so probably not needed. Or inlcude it in MAMA section, even though the award has nothing to do with MAMA and was just presented there. Snowflake91 (talk) 16:51, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

My two cents, I don't think it's worth including in the table. From my understanding, being given or awarded a plaque of appreciation is different to winning an actual award or trophy for something in a competitive category, which is what everything else in the table is more or less. I don't think we even need to mention it in the lead either. Could probably include it under 'Endorsements' on the main BTS article, near the part about them being tourism ambassadors if anything. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 18:53, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Well if everyone thinks this award is not worth mentioning then its better to ignore it rather than messing up the prose section!! CookyMooky

Sources

CookyMooky, please see above discussions about sourcing. Don't use website, use work instead, please link Wikipedia articles if the publication, and make sure all the parameters are filled. If you're having trouble, you can look at some of the other sources or ask someone else to help! DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 15:56, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: Sorry for causing you all trouble!! Please bear with me as I am new here and still learning from you all. This is the first project, I am participating in and hence wanted to give my best, by helping you all to make this page as much informative as I can!! Obviously I won't be as good with tables as you all are, so that is why I try to do the research work of finding sources, see if any award is missed or not or is there any new updates. I am trying my best to improve my work and will keep this point in my mind while finding sources next time. CookyMooky (talk)

@CookyMooky: No need to apologize or anything like that, just trying to share some tips. We were all newbies once, myself included. I'll happily write up citations for you if you're having trouble, just tag and ask! DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 16:34, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: I will keep your suggestion in my mind next time finding sources and thank you for your help!! CookyMooky (talk)

Carlobunnie I was reading your edit summary about sourcing, and I'm a bit confused about what you mean. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 01:29, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Also just to mention it, looking at other FLs the alphabetization is inconsistent so I guess it's not part of the standard. Going through all of it will be tedious so I think I'm just going to organize it wins first then noms for readability purposes and leave it at that. Figured I'd inform other editors. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 01:34, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

The 2017 bonsang nominees were orig a pool of 50 artists (1st source) which would be/were filtered down to 10 (2nd source) after voting (if I understood the sources correctly) so I was basically asking if it was ok to have both sources which together show how BTS lost their nom. Also, I thought we were already doing it wins then noms? This is nothing new. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 01:49, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

I mean't I'm not going to alphabetize anymore, just organize by wins and noms. I'm personally not sure both citations are needed since I feel like the shortlist could be enough, but I could understand having both. Cite overkill is just having multiple sources that accomplish the same thing, if two different sources clarify one thing it's totally fine to have. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 02:11, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Isn't the entire table already arranged by wins and noms and alphabetized though? That's what I'm saying. I think we pretty much did it all already so there isn't anything new to adjust as far as I can tell except for maybe if your checking of the remaining sources turns up something that requires spitting. And if tables are abt consistency wouldn't it look weird if we did the majority of it one way only to start doing it differently in another part? I'm not saying you can't arrange however you like but I got used to how we've done it and it seems a shame to abandon that now. But I guess it won't really make much of a difference anyways. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 02:31, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Has it been complete? If so we may as well keep it consistent. I was under the impression it was not; apologies. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 18:28, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Yep I finished up the alphabetization/reordering iirc. With the exception of 1 mama award, whose order I might still change, the table is all good. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 19:18, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

More on the Soompi front. Does this link work for anyone? It keeps telling me to install flash. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 01:50, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Doesn't work for me, not even on incognito with all my filters/extensions disabled. Says I need to download the latest vers of flash which I already have funnily enough. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 02:33, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Blegh. The earlier Soompi Awards were broadcast on Myx and I figured I'd be able to cite that, but they had to delete it, of course... DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 02:48, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Seoul Music Awards 2016

I'm having trouble locating a source that mentions Bangtan's being a nominee for the Hallyu Special Award & Popularity Award. For the PA, most articles only covered Junsu's win and the % of votes he got over Exo+SHINee. For the HSA, archives of the voting site that I found (like this) don't show nominees. Or at least none of the pages loaded on mobile showing nominees for me. I searched '2016 서울가요대상' + '2016 서울가요대상 투표' on Naver but no luck so far. @Chiyako92: dunno if you can find something? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 19:35, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

There's this article that lists all of the SMAs category and then lists a bunch of groups, including BTS, and says they'll all be competing for those awards, though I think that may be too general of a statement to use as a source. We might have to cite the broadcast directly on this one again. You can obviously your own judgement on it, though. I searched what you did, as well as BTS' name in Korean and the names of the specific awards they were nominated for in Korean, and got nothing. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 01:27, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree. The source's wording is too vague to connect to the specific awards in question. Looks like broadcast it is. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 02:03, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I searched and searched, but I couldn't find anything connecting BTS to those two awards, and apparently voting was done via app. I hope they recapped nominees during the live broadcasts. If we can't find sources, are they to be removed, I guess? --Chiya⁹² 09:31, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

We may probably have to yes because the year Jaejoong won they didn't show or announce nominees, they just announced he won and he came out on stage to collect it. Didn't check for video of Junsu's yet but I have a feeling it might have been the same for this too. -- Carlobunnie (talk)

Unless I misread, I think this article mentions it. It mostly discusses a sponsor for the 2016 SMA but mentions BTS as one of a few artists who are performing and were nominated for some awards, including these two. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 00:42, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

This source that I orig added on Jul 28 said the same thing as the one you have above and I initially interpreted it the same way. Then I re-read it a day later and felt the wording was more about the acts being mentioned for their performances/the response from fans to the results of the awards, rather than a correlation between the idols specified and the awards listed. A partial trans: "...and a number of influential idols, including Seventeen, BTS, GFriend and iKon, will perform, along with prizes for the main award, popularity, rookie award and overseas voting through the results of the vote that took place, which will earn great response from fans" and that's why I removed it on th 29th, now here we are again lol. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 07:14, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

The link doesn't seem to work, do you happen to have another? I'd like to cross check some stuff. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 19:24, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: Try it again and remove the last 3 characters '%7C' that show up in the url (no idea why they appear) and the link should work fine. Also, quick question: the exo page has 'publisher=Yonhap' but should it be 'work' (like what we've been doing here) or leave it as is? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 19:31, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: Yonhap is a news publication so it should be under |work=. Publisher would be something like CJ E&M posting information to their website or data released by award shows, since they're not a written publication. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 21:19, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I did put all instances as work so your confirmation of that is appreciated. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 03:31, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie and Chiyako92: Alright, long time looking, but I finally found it. Through all this endless hunting I was able to find that we missed their Hallyu Special nom in 2017. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 18:40, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Never mind about the previous, I forgot that they call the award show hosted in 2018 "2017". They were still nominated for it though, but that's covered by your voting source. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 18:51, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: when using archive.is for archived links you're supposed to use the long links for wikipedia, not the short. So you gotta change it for the 2016 hallyu/popular edit you did. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 20:48, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie:Where would I find that? Only the short URL displays. Nevermind, got it. Thank you for informing me of that rule, I didn't know about it. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 21:19, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Np. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 21:29, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Singularity Best Chroeo

Given that's V's solo song, wouldn't that award belong on his page? DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 01:29, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Was the nomination listed as BTS - Singularity or V - Singularity? If it's the former then I'd say it could stay in the table. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 03:51, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

It's listed as "Singularity (BTS's V)". --Chiya⁹² 08:29, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Some things of note/helpful links when doing citations

1. For articles where a published date is not visible this is an easy way to find out the page date so that it can be included in the reference.
2. Format order I have used throughout the entire article: 'cite web|url=|title= or script-title=|last=|first=|date=|work= or publisher=|language=|format=|archive-url=|trans-title=|archive-date=|dead-url=|access-date=|via='. (cite av media & cite episode follow a diff format)
3. script-title: enter the 2-letter ISO 639-1 language code found here if article is in kor/jpn/chi. That list is super helpful for learning the codes.
4. Where an article doesn't state who wrote it, I've used 'author=(<!)--Not stated--(>)' in place of where the last/first parameters would go (remove the brackets)
5. We aren't using the 'website' parameter for anything, only 'work' or 'publisher' (you may have noticed I change it every time someone uses it in an edit)
6. language: the 2-letter code is also used here (I put them in lowercase as per the language template). I find less letters easier/faster to type. Not needed for Eng citations.
7. format: for any special instructions on how to view relevant material on a webpage
8. archive-url: if archiving from archive.is then the LONG url must be used.
9. trans-title: if a reference is not in eng a translation must be included (this is not a general wiki rule but simply what we've done here)
10. via: please be sure to include this parameter if the article url is on a host site. This occurs most commonly with Naver links but other news sites like Chosun, Maekyung, Hankyung etc. host articles from Osen, Newsen etc. as well, so you just need to carefully check the article to know. If using the original article instead of the host link then 'via' isn't necessary.
11. Date format for date/archive-date/access-date parameters: use mmmm-dd-yyyyy (ie. August 3, 2019). It saves someone else having to come in and do consistency cleanup. There are templates that enforce a particular style for readers but until one is applied to the table (and we probably should as an admin recently recommended to me on the Exo page) please stick to the current format.

Ik some of us already know either most or all of this, or not, but I figured it was a good place to keep reminders/useful links while editing (also these are some of the most common things I have to clean up across various articles on wikipedia). I forget stuff sometimes and I usually have to look through bookmarks to find the relevant wiki page to remind myself of something or ping someone for an answer so hopefully this is helpful in some way. If anyone has other things they think would be good to link here for easy use/access please feel free to do so. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 23:00, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Awesome write up! Here is the link for #1, since it seems to be broken in your post. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 03:34, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Linking

In Philippines Kpop Awards, Love Yourself links to the Bieber song, someone correct the link since I dont know if its "Her" or "Answer" or "Tear", and the album name should be in italics. Also, in 2017 MAMA awards, song of the year award wrongly links to the album of the year award. Snowflake91 (talk) 09:22, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

And there is inconsistency in song/album linking across the article, for example in Korean Music Awards "Fake Love" is linked twice, while in MAMA, "Blood Sweat & Tears" is linked only once, same with Fake Love. Some newly-promoted FL articles are linking the songs/albums only once in entire table, while other articles are linking it every single time, so use either all-linking for every mention OR only one link in entire table per song (link only the first mentioning). Same with awards linking - should MAMA song of the year be linked everytime, or only once? Snowflake91 (talk) 09:34, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: I took a look at the Kylie page, and they've continuously linked every repeated award nom/song/album throughout the table so I'll update ours likewise for consistency. I myself was unsure about repetitive linking (so I didn't do it for past edits to the same MAMA section) so thanks for mentioning it now so that I could know what to do going forward. Good thing you caught the PKA error because I haven't started double checking that stuff yet and didn't even notice the wrong link for that particular award (which I still feel is the equivalent of Kcon giving an artist an award but oh well. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 16:18, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree, dont know why would this award be notable, only Manila Bulletin and KStreet Manila are reporting about those awards, and I have a feeling that they are media sponsors of the event, or somehow connected to it. The album was 100% Love Yourself: Her, but cant find a reliable source for that, only fan tweets. Feel free to delete those kpop convention awards if you want. Snowflake91 (talk) 19:08, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Now that it's fully sortable tables, every link opportunity should be taken apparently. See bottom of Dua Lipa FC archive. NicklausAU 06:48, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Rework of Lede

I decided to begin partial testing here instead of having multiple edits made to the main article until we get it right. The final perfected piece is what will be added to the page. Please feel free to make comments/suggestions for each section. Splitting it up into 4 as we currently have 4 existing p'graphs. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 18:33, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

1st p'graph

BTS is a seven-member South Korean boy band formed in 2010 under record label Big Hit Entertainment, comprised of three rappers, RM, Suga and J-Hope, and four vocalists, Jin, Jimin, V, and Jungkook. The group's official debut single album 2 Cool 4 Skool (June 2013), and subsequent extended play O!RUL8,2? (Sept 2013), garnered them several New Artist of the Year awards, including at the 5th Melon Music Awards, 28th Golden Disc Awards and 23rd Seoul Music Awards. Two years later, in May 2015, they received their first number-one music show win on South Korean music program The Show for the single I Need U (2015), off their third EP, The Most Beautiful Moment in Life, Part 1 (2015). Four years later, they currently hold the record for the most awarded song in music show history this century with 21 wins for "Boy with Luv".

Comments

Was thinking of putting a footnote for 'music show': "South Korean music programs air weekly across various television networks and award the artist with the most popular and best performing song in the country for that week. Winners are selected based upon a combination of specific criteria per show including: digital streams and sales, physical album sales, music video YouTube views, and in some instances, pre and live voting via SMS. (with this as the ref)

Yes, I think stuff specific to the Korean entertainment industry like that should have footnotes. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 03:27, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Other comments

I appreciate you starting this Carlobunnie, but I feel like it might be better to discuss structure before starting to write anything. Like the rest of this project we don't really have a sample that covers all the ground we'd need to for BTS so I'd hate for you do write a ton of drafts that need constant adjusting. I was actually gathering some sources for this and I have a few saved already. Here's the structure I was considering:

• P1: Brief intro sentence, then a chronological overview of their discography mentioning the major awards that each album/bigger singles brought. The rookie awards from their 2013 albums, their 2014 ones having a quieter reception, then their growth from 2015 onwards. Their discography is long so this may be worth splitting in two; 2013—2015 or 2016 to open, then another paragraph from then til now. We can probably tack on the music show stuff at the end here.

• P2: They have a lot of awards and other stuff that isn't directly music related but ties more into fandom size, like a lot of popularity awards and TSA which definitely needs to be mentioned somewhere. I think it would also be a good idea to put their world records here?

• P3: Listcles and state honors, since they both are related to cultural impact and general influence.

My logic for this is that I think it covers everything major on the page and it flows in a logical way. My biggest issue with the current lede is the lack of organization and that comparatively smaller awards and placed right next to bigger ones before switching back. It makes it muddled. Obviously my structure isn't perfect though, so I'd love to hear your thoughts! DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 20:00, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Your ideas are good. Honestly I was just using what was already there and trying to improve that until someone presented a better way of tackling it, since like you said there's really no base that we can follow for how these are written. My only concern is that we don't fit too much into the lede because what you mentioned covers a lot of stuff. But I'm fine with working through it as you've suggested. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 20:52, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you! I can write up a sample if you would like, though sometimes leads do end up long. I think something like this would venture into too long territory. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 03:26, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

A sample would be great if you have the time. Kylie's is pretty heavy but not as chock full as Gaga's. I've been perusing lede intros on band articles and thus the opening sentence above. I think it's ok to add it in for now, and we'll adjust/improve the rest after you share your sample. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 00:37, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I still have some issues with the lede that I will address ASAP. Unfortunately the discussion on the lede happened to come about during a time where I couldn't really come on here. What we've got now is a pretty good version so I may just make something based off of that and we can discuss it. Something that we can discuss here, though: I don't really think certifications belong on this page. It's already listed on the discography page (and if it's not in that lede it should be) since they're sales acknowledgments. Also, lede image. BTS holding an award is generally preferred but not mandatory, and I know there were issues with the image before, so it may be worth changing. The most recent image of them holding an award is this image from December 2017 (the current one is from January). There's also quite a few recent images of the group on award show red carpets—too many to list individually but the most recent one is this photo from the 2019 BBMAs where all the members are much more clearly visible. I'm not exactly sure which image is best or what other editors prefer. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 04:39, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: I have no issue with the certifications being removed. A more recent photo is best imo and I like the Billboard one, especially because the quality is great so idm at all if we use that as a replacement. Feel free to edit the lede as you like. I'm not in a rush for it to go to FL review as yet even though Snowflake thinks we should. I'd like the article to be the best we can get it to be before we nominate it. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 04:53, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm somewhat upset that this draft was moved without consent from the other editors working heavily on this page, because the issues aren't address that needed to be. The lede is not up to standard, the image needed to be discussed further because it's not license reviewed yet and thus can't be used on the page, and the idea was to keep discussion on that talk page to help prevent clutter. Additionally, it was moved incorrectly which is why I would've liked a proper discussion about it, since I (or a different editor) now needs to clean that up. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 17:58, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

I'll just go ahead and do them, though we should definitely have a big discussion when it comes time for the FL nom. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 18:02, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: I was under the impression that Snowflake was capable of moving it correctly when he initially talked about doing it, and I didn't think we needed consensus to move it from draftspace so I'm really sorry about whatever trouble I've given you by telling him to go ahead and move it without you being onboard with the move. Ik we still have stuff to work on as regards the lede/photo (in order for it to be FL nom ready) but unless I've missed other issues I thought the article was mostly fine otherwise? And I didn't check the photo because I assumed that when you shared it on the talk page, you did so because it was a viable, approved option. It never occurred to me that you would link something that wasn't fully reviewed yet, so I guess a lot of miscommunication happened on all our parts. Tell me what can I do to help with whatever problems you have. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 18:17, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: Striked it out since I don't really agree with what I wrote anymore, there's not much discussion left to have other than the lede. I offered it to discuss it, to see if I attempt to get it reviewed. I'll put back the old one as a placeholder. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 18:20, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Where does it say that the page needs to be perfect and flawless to be in main space? Therefore 99% of list articles should be moved to draft since they are not FL. The article is more than good enough to be in main space, the only reason why it was moved to draft more than a month ago was because the table-replacing process would be too long and disruptive to be done here, since it cant be done over a night (well apparently it can since NicklausAU managed to do it for Exo in just a few hours, so we were obviously doing something wrong while converting old tables into a single table because it took us ~ 1 week, and there were 3 editors, not just 1). Snowflake91 (talk) 18:26, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

And the page cannot be moved the "normal" way since the target page (List of awards and nominations received by BTS) already existed. Draft articles are usually done for a new articles, which are not in the main space yet. Next time use a sandbox for that, not draft, and then just copy/paste content from sandbox. It was originally in Carlobunnie's sandbox, dont know why it was moved to "draft" in the first place. Snowflake91 (talk) 18:32, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: I don't think we did anything wrong the way we worked on the table. The period of time anyone takes to convert a table or tables is irrelevant here. We're all at different skill levels on wikipedia, he just figured out a faster way to do it. But let's not get off track. I started off in the sandbox, and Danielle suggested later on down the line that draftspace would be better (can't recall why exactly at the moment) but I agreed when I did because I didn't want to clutter up the talk page on the existing article at the time with all the discussion that resulted during the rework. You and I both thought the article was fine to be moved as is so we went ahead with that. She initially disagreed with it yes, but that's over and done with now. I think she just wanted it to be more polished before we published it (which was a sentiment I shared at one point before this morning). But you moved it, and accommodated all my requests while doing so and now she's doing her cleanup and we'll get the lede sorted so let's not think too deeply on it please? We've all worked well together this far, wouldn't like to see that ruined or anything. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 18:53, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree with you, hence the strike on the comment. I was going to delete it but that ruins the archival purpose of talk pages. There have been drafts made for existing articles in the mainspace before, though. Sandboxes are more commonly used for a single editor but there's no rules against drafts existing for existing articles. That's why {{link to draft}} is a thing. (I personally prefer them if a large group is working since it's not in only one editor's sandbox.) I think the biggest issue we had was that may of the awards from 2015/2016 BTS were mostly just nominees, not winners, while Exo won more awards, so it got reported more. I only really found reports on nominations from RS starting from 2017 as kpop got more mainstream. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 18:41, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Footnotes

I see that the drill seems to be to add footnotes only for awards that have no articles of their own but I was thinking of also including fns for awards that readers may not be familiar w even though they have articles ie. the Asian/domestic Korean awards. I added to just the first 2 in the table to get feedback on whether it's a good idea or a waste of time. Carlobunnie (talk) 06:03, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: Pretty neutral on it. Doesn't hurt to have more information, though it could make the section too long/confusing. Wikilinking should just be enough if the linked article itself is clear. A confused reader can just click the link and read the lede of that page. though if you think it'd be better to have fns that's ok, too. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 18:28, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. @Snowflake91: could I get your opinion also? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 18:56, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Detailed info for every award, even those with an article, is obviously an overkill. We cannot be selective either, i.e. how can you know that the reader will know about MAMA, but not about Soribada for example? Either every award should have info or none of them (awards with an articles only, the ones without it should have some info). Snowflake91 (talk) 19:07, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

I wasn't gonna do it for every award. Was only asking for the Asian/domestic Korean ones because I was thinking on the premise that more readers would be less familiar w Mama/Soba/Gda etc. as opposed to BBMA, Ama etc. since the latter are generally more widely known ceremonies. That's why I only did 2. Removing them now. Thanks. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 19:19, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Thats the problem, we cannot be selective and assuming that the reader will know about some awards. It is not needed anyway, is there any FL article that has something like that ? Snowflake91 (talk) 19:22, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Idk. I don't usually go check for an existing FLA everytime I'm contemplating trying something on ours. Depending on what it is I want to test out, I sometimes just ask you guys for feedback. I refer to FLA's for things like formatting, referencing, coding, sorting, things like that. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 19:31, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

The Hall Of Stars Awards

Hello everyone!

Regarding BTS's wins at The Hall Of Stars (THOS) Awards 2018, there is a reliable source of the ceremony here:

https://www.timejust.es/cultura/el-teatro-la-latina-acogio-los-thos-adwars-2018

The article also has the information of the location and the photos of the red carpet and ceremony. I first thought of adding this in the Wiki page but then I decided to share here and let you people review it. I will happily add it in the BTS Awards Wiki page if there is no issue.

Facts Spiller (talk) 12:39, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@Facts Spiller: sorry for not being able to reply sooner, I've only just woken up. We determined the THOS awards to not be notable enough for inclusion as it received very minor coverage in the media. I'm still a bit groggy rn but iirc that's mentioned somewhere in our editing discussions above. And I appreciate very much that you chose to ask here rather than taking it upon yourself to "fix" the page and put it back in. A lot of work went in to properly updating it to what you see now.. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 12:49, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: No need to apologize. I saw the revamp of the page. It looks good. I am confused about one thing. The awards removed which have minor media coverage and are not notable, will this rule be applied for other K-pop groups' award pages or just for BTS? - Facts Spiller (talk) 13:11, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@Facts Spiller: it should be applied across all related k-artists pages but that is a very large undertaking and might not happen any time soon (or will happen very, very slowly as other editors get on board with revamping their pages). Lots of fan reverts will probably happen then (as occurred here after Snowflake moved our draft to the mainspace) but we can't force anyone else to do it on other pages. The Exo awards list page is the only other article currently that has done this because the user largely responsible for it used our draft as a guide and also received feedback from FL nom reviewers (of whom I was one) for additional improvements to the page. If you would like to jump start the same on other articles you can always leave a message on the respective talk pages and get the help of the editors who regularly maintain them. It would be great to see those pages properly cleaned up on wikipedia as well -- Carlobunnie (talk) 13:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: Ok then! I will try my best to help too. Facts Spiller (talk) 13:37, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Suggestions for "Listicles" Section

Hello! Kindly review the following lists and check whether they qualify for the "Listicles" Section or not.

Sisa Journal

Sisa Journal’s 2017 Year-End Special edition http://www.sisajournal.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=172914
BTS (Placed)

Sisa Journal - 2018 https://news.naver.com/main/read.nhn?mode=LSD&mid=sec&oid=586&aid=0000003203&sid1=001
2. BTS (Most Influential Celebrities)

Sisa Journal - 2019 https://news.v.daum.net/v/20190813090133566
8. BTS (Most Influential People in South Korea)
1. BTS (Most Influential Celebrities)

TIME

TIME: Best Portraits of 2018 https://time.com/best-portraits-2018/
BTS’s "Next Generation Leaders" Photo (Placed)

TIME 100 Reader Poll
1. BTS (2018) https://time.com/5472018/person-of-the-year-poll-winner/
1. BTS (2019) https://time.com/5570948/bts-time-100-2019-reader-poll-winner/

Pitchfork

Pitchfork Readers’ Poll Results 2018 https://pitchfork.com/features/lists-and-guides/pitchfork-readers-poll-results-2018/
6. BTS (Best New Artist)
1. BTS (Best Live Act)

A100 List

A100 List 2019 https://goldhouse.org/a100/2019/
BTS (Placed)

Vivid Seats

Vivid Seats's 2018 Year In Review https://www.vividseats.com/blog/2018-top-live-events
BTS (Artist of the Year)

Ticketmaster https://www.iq-mag.net/2018/11/bts-ticketmaster-ticket-of-the-year-2018/
BTS (Global Ticket of the Year 2018)

Facts Spiller (talk) 09:26, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

@Facts Spiller: Sisa and A100 look interesting though I've never heard of either before. Are there any news articles on A100 to prove notability (a primary source alone like the one above isn't enough), and ones that explain abt Sisa also? Time and Pitchfork no, though their topping the Time polls two years in a row could probably be mentioned in the impact/influence section on the main BTS article, but a second opinion on that would be good. Vivid and Ticketmaster are better suited under the appropriate tour articles not here. Tagging @DanielleTH: for input because the listicles section is her baby. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 03:30, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: For the A100 list, you can find a lot of articles on Google search e.g. Yahoo [3], The Wrap [4], Huffpost [5], abc7 [6], Billboard (it reported the 2018 list) [7] etc. Sisa Journal is an old South Korean journal which was launched in 1989. According to my Korean friend, the journal is a credible one as a current affairs and politics journal in South Korea. It is long enough to have a reputation as a politics and economics journal. Facts Spiller (talk) 05:38, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

@Facts Spiller: yeah I googled the A100 after I asked you. And I read the 3rd Sisa link and saw the explanation lower down in the article. DanielleTH hasn't replied yet but it should be fine to add in the meantime I think. @Snowflake91: you good with Sisa/A100 being included? I can do footnotes for both if they're added in. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 17:14, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Dont know much about listicles, add them as long as the publisher is reliable and reputable, i.e. not some soompi popularity list or some random crap like that. Snowflake91 (talk) 17:17, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: yes they're both reliable and reputable. Just wanted you to be aware first. @Facts Spiller: you can go ahead and add Sisa/A100 in. I'll do the fns after you're done and make whatever little adjustments if needed. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 17:29, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: It is kinda late here so I will have to do it tomorrow. I will follow your reference format. Facts Spiller (talk) 17:42, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

@Facts Spiller: no problem. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 17:49, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: Sisa Journal/A100 added. Kindly check format & archive links. Facts Spiller (talk) 11:15, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

@Facts Spiller: reviewed and made some minor adjustments. Sorry for the late reply. I still have a fn to do for Sisa but it's good otherwise. Thanks again for your work! Edit: can you locate some articles written by other news media that talk abt the Sisa journal? (I'll use that in the fn for it) Since all the sources we have in the table are only primary sources coming directly from Sisa they don't prove notability. I don't have time to search for them myself. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 13:18, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

@Facts Spiller: any update on those articles I asked for in my previous reply to you (ie. the 'Edit' part)? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 01:53, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: I apologize. I didn't get your notification so I didn't see your message. I don't know Korean so i had some difficulty in finding them. I found these (so far):

The Chosun Ilbo

http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2009/08/18/2009081800051.html

Mediatoday

http://www.mediatoday.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=37434

Hankyoreh

http://www.hani.co.kr/arti/653737.html]

http://www.hani.co.kr/arti/opinion/editorial/529735.html

http://www.hani.co.kr/arti/culture/culture_general/546754.html

Kyunghyang Shinmun

http://news.khan.co.kr/kh_news/khan_art_view.html?art_id=201008162213465

Korea Herald

http://biz.heraldcorp.com/view.php?ud=20131031000164

JTBC

http://news.jtbc.joins.com/article/article.aspx?news_id=NB10342076

Facts Spiller (talk) 12:56, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

@Facts Spiller: these are just fine! At the most we only needed maybe 2 or 3 to choose from so this is more than enough. Thanks for searching. I'll review them and do the footnote. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

BTS debut date - in prose section

@DanielleTH, Snowflake91, and Carlobunnie:I had a suggestion to make, In the prose section first line it is written that " BTS was formed in 2010" this point according to me shouldn't be written and rather than this it would be better if we would mention their official debut date of June 13, 2013 with the lead single 'No More Dream' on album '2 Cool 4 Skool. This should be mentioned rather that the formation period/year as the members were selected in 2010 and 2011 through auditions and were finalized in 2012 [8] (and that too no specific date for this was provided officially as their were many changes made by some members leaving and some new addition being made) and hence is debatable point. It is much more better to mention the official debut date as on all the major artist and groups pages like ONE DIRECTION, FIFTH HARMONY, EXO, MAROON 5 and almost all major K-pop groups etc have also mentioned the time they debuted with their first albums/songs and not the formation year. This is what I though should be done, but if you all think its way too important to mentione the formation date then we can at-least we can mention the debut date along it so that its not confusing to general readers. CookyMooky (talk)

@CookyMooky: the only reason that sentence is there because I transferred it from the old article. Remember we haven't rewritten the lede yet so whatever is there now only parts of that will be kept by the time it's fully and properly redone. I left it as 'formed' because the initial formation did occur in 2010. The official debut in 2013 will be mentioned, I just haven't figured out how to redo the lede yet. I was kind of actually waiting to see what DanielleTH had come up with since she said she was working on something.-- Carlobunnie (talk) 16:43, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: I know that you all are working on the prose section and that is why I pointed out my doubt relating to the year, so that the lede can be much more informative with no debatable points, also its better to ask than to holding doubts inside. CookyMooky (talk)

BTS received “Hallyu Culture Daesang” (Seoul Mayor Award) in K-Pop World Festival aka K-pop EXPO and MTV hottest summer superstar 2019

@Snowflake91, DanielleTH, and Carlobunnie: Kindly review this recent award received by BTS and check whether it qualify for the "awards" Section or not. On August 23, In K-EXPO where awards are presented to businesses and icons who have made outstanding contributions to Hallyu culture (aka the Korean Wave) where BTS received the first-ever “Hallyu Culture Daesang” (Seoul Mayor Award). REF: From the official NEWSIS (Korean news site) [9] and [10] I have checked, this is a regular award ceremony and festival held every year in which all the famous Kpop artist participates, with proper coverage on many other sites too. CookyMooky (talk)

It is not regular, this is the first time they have awarded this, seems like a random festival participation award, same as BOF Awards. Snowflake91 (talk) 09:14, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

The link which I provided is from a respectable Korean news site NEWSIS along with other respectable support source too, it got coverage in many other sites (like billboard etc) [11] with a proper ceremony being held, So I don't think this is a random thing, unlike the BOF award you mentioned who got negligible coverage on news site (except Soompi's link you gave) I have checked it was the part of the event, in the links provided many other awards were also awarded not only to BTS but to other famous kpop groups like Twice, artists, businesses and films too. So I request you to please look upon this once again. This is my point of view,if you still think that it shouldn't be recorded then you can undo my edit. CookyMooky (talk)

I was actually wondering about this same award myself yesterday and then I saw you asked here about it. The award itself was given out for the first time this year but the expo has been running for many years so there's more than enough coverage to meet notability. It doesn't strike me as a BOF award...I think it's okay to be included. Also CookyMooky when referencing you need to include the 'last/first/work' parameters for all citations unless that info is not stated in the article being referenced. Idk why you left them out even though the Newsis article has it. You also didn't archive it or the BB ref either. Remember the citation format I wrote out above to be used throughout the article for consistency ok? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 16:43, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: Sorry actually I was in a bit of hurry as my laptop battery was very low and its really tough to edit through mobile. But now I have archived the link, and Next time I will be more careful about the format.CookyMooky (talk)

@CookyMooky: I saw you added the links after I left the talk page. And there's no rush, you could always have added it in later after charging your laptop. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 16:52, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91, DanielleTH, and Carlobunnie: Kindly check the edit I made for "MTV's hottest summer superstar 2019". I checked this award has been given since 2013 [12] and BTS win got coverage on other news site too. [13][14] I have made this edit taking care about the format this time. If you think its not notable or have any problem with my edit than you can undo it. CookyMooky (talk)

Thats not an award ceremony, its a listicle/popularity ranking if anything. Snowflake91 (talk) 14:24, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Table of Contents

Tinkered a bit with the ToC today and was wondering if the compact style (which would include the other sections on the page in the toc bar) is better for the article than how it is currently since the ToC box under the lede was removed a while back. Even though I added it again just now to compare the two, I do think the compact style is neater and less obtrusive than the box (even though it can be hidden).

Thoughts? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 21:26, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

I personally like how it is now with both the ToC and the compact box. --Chiya^ko92 08:14, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I edited the compact box to hide the 'contents' name so it only shows the award letters instead, and left the ToC box as is. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 16:14, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Edits

@Chimmy87, BPL2007, Dionysus8, and Kyliex2008: I pinged all of you here because it's easier than going to each of your pages. Your enthusiasm and willingness to help update this particular wikipedia article is appreciated but more often than not the edits you make are either incorrect, disruptive, or simply do not follow the way the rest of the page is maintained (ik there are many ip users who do this as well but yall are the most recent ones with registered acs that I could reach out to). Considering the amount of work that went into redoing this entire article to get it up to a certain standard, please please PLEASE come to the talk page first before you do anything to ensure what you want to add is correct/notable/worth inclusion or has not already been added. We do not do live updates as awards are given out at ceremonies or announced online by official twitter acs. Wait for reliable secondary sources to be published first. If there is something you believe is missing come and talk to us to find out why it was removed or not added at all. Not every award or accolade or list that BTS receive/make it on meets wikipedia's notability requirements and constant attempts to add them to the page amount to repeated vandalism, especially if other editors have to keep undoing your edits. As can be seen from the page's edit history, editors come in at the appropriate times and update wins accordingly so there's no need to rush and make a mess of things just to have the info added in asap. And more so, once we submit the page for Featured List review, the edits you make and the way you do them will not be acceptable at all. So please take this into consideration the next time you want to make an edit. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 16:02, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

@DanielleTH, Snowflake91, and Carlobunnie: I was just scrolling through the page, when I noticed there is some problem with the Sources/References written for all the awards. As you see, that all the references there are showing "Cite uses deprecated parameter" I tried learning about it and tried rectifying it but I couldn't, hence I though of informing you all here. I don't know how that happened, as there was no edit made by anyone!! I think its better if you all too look into this matter as soon as possible!! CookyMooky (talk)

Leave it for now until consensus came out, it should be fixed by bots anyway. Its caused by changes to cite web template (see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Is there a semi-automated tool that could fix these annoying "Cite Web" errors? and Help talk:Citation Style 1#Template documentation updates needed in cite template examples for dead-url= parameter). If the "dead url" parameter should be deleted then this can be done in one click for all references, dont bother with manually fixing references as this will take you too much time, I can do it with the tool if you're not sure how to do it. Snowflake91 (talk) 19:19, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Number of Guinness World Records

I was looking at the World records section, and I think that probably Most viewed YouTube music video in 24 hours - "Idol" shouldn't be there. As stated by Guinness World Records, that record was broken by Ariana Grande's "thank u, next" and is therefore defunct. BTS eventually earned it back in 2019 with "Boy with Luv", as reflected in the table, and we're now in a situation where Most viewed YouTube music video in 24 hours is listed twice: the first one for "Idol" and the second one for "Boy with Luv". If BTS had broken their own "Idol" record with "Boy with Luv", we would have just kept the 2018 daggered "Idol" row and removed "Boy with Luv" one, but, since this was not the case, I think we should remove Most viewed YouTube music video in 24 hours - "Idol" and just keep Most viewed YouTube music video in 24 hours - "Boy with Luv" as if it were a brand new record. I don't know if I managed to explain mysef. What do you think? --Chiya^ko92 08:57, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Premios Telehit 2019

Kindly review this award. BTS won the “Best K-pop of the Year" award at the Premios Telehit 2019.

Source: https://www.telehit.com/premios-telehit/premios-telehit-lista-ganadores-2019

Facts Spiller (talk) 08:49, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

No primary sources, find at least two reliable media sources covering this or the award is not notable. Snowflake91 (talk) 11:00, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

As of now I found one source, also stating they were nominated for Best Video (Mejor Vídeo del Público).--Chiya^ko92 13:57, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

I also found this source. Two former 1D members also performed at this show... Facts Spiller (talk) 14:05, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

MMA 2019 Top 10 ref

Hey @Snowflake91: was there something wrong with the source I used for the nom? It was a reliable source and contained the exact same information as the source you replaced it with so I'm confused as to what the problem is/was. My only mistake was I thought I had changed 'pending' to 'won' but I didn't. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 16:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

I thought you added outdated reference for nomination only (not win) according to edit summary, sorry. Snowflake91 (talk) 18:12, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91 and Carlobunnie: Kindly review this site for reference for Melon Music award 2019. If this is acceptable then please use it to make changes,as I am new here and don't know how to properly edit the tables.

Of course its not reliable, its a random personal blog. Snowflake91 (talk) 19:30, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

"Not in source" edit

Hey @Snowflake91: what were you saying isn't in the source? The article lists out every single win at the end of the piece and all 9 of BTS' awards are there. Did I miss something or label something incorrectly? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 14:44, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

I meant the edits added after by someone else, in the lead section, I thought it was reverted properly but apparently it wasnt since I did something wrong, your edits were fine. Snowflake91 (talk) 14:47, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie:@Snowflake91: BTS attended Variety Hitmakers Brunch today to get "group of the year" award at the ceremony.I checked that there was a proper award ceremony with various other artists too getting awarded.

[15] and [16] Please let me know if this can be added in the awards section CookyMooky (talk)

Variety Hitmakers award

I don't think this is in the right section. It wasn't an accolade given to them as part of an online list but a legitimate physical award presented at an annual award ceremony held by Variety so I think it should be in the main table. Does anyone think differently? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 03:18, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: Yeh I agree with you!! I too was trying to point out the same thing. They attended the show, where they were presented with individual trophies and even gave acceptance speech. Also there was many other categories in which other people won; same like an award show. What do you think @Snowflake91: ?? CookyMooky (talk) 10:10, 14 December 2019

FL Status

@Snowflake91, Chiyako92, CookyMooky, and Carlobunnie: I feel like this article is in a good enough state to nominate for featured status. Before I jumped the gun I figured I would tag you as other frequent page editors, in case you feel there are things that still need to be fixed or would like to co-nominate. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 21:28, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

I think the lead is too long now, and considering that unless something big happens, they will also win every major award in the next 3-4 years which would make it even longer if every award would be mentioned. Maybe ditch music show programs in the last paragraph entirely since they arent even listed in the tables, and those lists like forbes and variety. To compare – BTS has 26 rows of text, Swift has 20, Lady Gaga 19, Ariana Grande 17, Kyle Mingoue 17, Meghan Trainor 10 etc. (out of FL articles) Snowflake91 (talk) 21:55, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: Removed what you suggested other than one sentence mentioning the Time 100, just to have something in the lead that acknowledges that section, and that's the most notable one. Cut down on what I thought were excess details and removed the IFPI thing since that's about record sales and belongs on their albums discography that actually tracks sales. I think that length is OK in comparison to the FLs you mentioned. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 23:10, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Thats MUCH better now, the only thing I would still remove is "HotelsCombined", I dont think that temporary sponsored names should be used, use simply "song of the year". Snowflake91 (talk) 23:15, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Done. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 23:27, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

I've nothing more to add to what Snowflake91 has already pointed out. --Chiya^ko92 13:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

By the way, is the infobox image properly licenced? If the YouTube video shows an image, even if the video has "reuse allowed", it wont make it free, this apply only for in-motion screenshots taken from the original video. So basically, if I take a copyrighted image, make a video in which I show this image and set YT video to cc 4.0, that wont make this image free to use, the image was deffinetely not taken by "티비텐 (TV10)" since its all over the web and there is no info that the image is originally from 티비텐 (TV10), or...? Snowflake91 (talk) 22:56, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: TV10 is owned by TenAsia. TenAsia were the original photographers (that's why its watermarked as TenAsia) and then they used their own photograph in the video. So they're allowed to release it under CC. If they had purchased the photo from Getty Images then they wouldn't be allowed to. I actually had this conversation with a License Reviewer on Commons with a different TenAsia file! And understand the confusion. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 04:05, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Just as a follow up: TenAsia links TV10 from their website as part of the list of their socials, which confirms their ownership. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 04:08, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

@DanielleTH: The lead reads much better now. Good job cutting it down/reorganizing it. Sorry for the late reply, haven't been online much due to irl things. There are 3 references in the table I wanna fix a little (will do it later as I'm heading out now) before we nominate, but other than that, I think we're pretty much ready to go. Carlobunnie (talk) 12:30, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

@Carlobunnie: Apologies but I ended up nominating it before I got this message. It's here! DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 08:00, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

@DanielleTH, Snowflake91, and Carlobunnie: iheartradio Music awards nomination is out, BTS is nominated for 2 categories ~ Best fans and Best music video LINK I was going to make the edit myself, but then I am afraid that I will make some mistakes and make your workload even more as this page is already nominated for review. So I thought its better if any one of you make this edit.CookyMooky (talk) 17:16, 8 January 2020 (UTC)CookyMooky

Added. We need Seoul Music Awards nominations next, the noms have been released for quite some time now but no one has added them yet, probably because of sourcing issues Snowflake91 (talk) 12:12, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

@Snowflake91: Looking for sources rn. Will add to the table shortly. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 17:30, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

On IB Times, what is this "Main Award" category they listed? Is it Record of the Year, or just regular Bonsang? Are Bonsang and Daesang awards even nominated, or just given? Snowflake91 (talk) 23:20, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Looking at the sources again, and the SMA page, I think it might be for the Bongsang given how many nominees there are. None of the sources I found on the awards, Korean or English, specify whether it's for a Bongsang or Record of the Year. They all just state 'Main Award', which I initially interpreted as AOTY. Bongsang awards are based on sales, voting and judge's decision, ppl do actually get nominated. I can edit the table to say Bongsang for now since perhaps AOTY is incorrect. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 23:56, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

@Snowflake91 and Carlobunnie: Yep it is Bonsang award/ Main award. I kind of follow all Korean award shows hence I know about it. All artists are nominated for bonsang, and then out of nominated bonsang awardees, top 10 are given bonsang award on basis of fan votes. Afterwards judges points and album sales etc are taken into consideration and then the main DAESANG award/ Grand award is given out of these 10 bonsang winners. CookyMooky (talk) 14:01, 10 January 2020 (UTC)CookyMooky

Golden Disc

In 2015, 2016 and 2017, they should also be nominated for Disc Daesang. As far as I know, the 10 winners of Bonsang Award are further nominated for Daesang. If there is no direct source for it (there is ususally no source since those 10 Daesang nominees are not known prior awards ceremony), we can use the same source for Bonsang win and a nomination for Daesang. It would help if someone would find a source from any year which confirms that the system is like that (Bonsang winner = Daesang nomination), so it can be added as a note without needing direct sources for those nominations. Snowflake91 (talk) 14:50, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

This article confirms that Daesangs are chosen out of the Bonsang winners, it should be added as "shortlisted". Snowflake91 (talk) 22:15, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Hey @Snowflake91: can we request WP:PCPP for the page while it's under review? I think I remember that being done for the Exo page while it was under review. Or would it not be applicable? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 15:30, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Non-notable awards

I've noted many awards on the article don't have a page on Wikipedia, just citing a note that explain them, which isn't enough. They should be removed..unless they have a page on another language. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 02:33, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

I haven't heard anything like this that if certain awards doesn't have a wikipedia page, they shouldn't be noted. Any award which have proper coverage and is supported from reliable sources & articles can be mentioned.

Also with notes given for each & every award, there are clear mentions of the cited sources too, if you want to furthur check its reliability you can go & check. This page is now in featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced & maintained by good & experienced editors, hence I think the format should be left like it is & shouldn't be unnecessarily touched.CookyMooky (talk) 10:10, 16 April 2019