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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 112.119.116.84 (talk) at 09:43, 16 November 2020 (→‎It's not right, not neutral, to have: "...is conspiracy theorist" as opening statement.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Notability

I doubt that this meets WP:NBIO: the sources are not really about the person but about social media and the popularity of conspiracy theories. Some mention her among others, other don't at all. WP:1E is also relevant, —PaleoNeonate – 07:26, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, User:PaleoNeonate, I think your statement was true on 6th September, however over the last week Ms Shemirani has been the subject of coverage in both the Times and Jewish Chronicle. I've added the references to the article. I would appreciate your consideration. --Salimfadhley (talk) 14:47, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
These are indeed about her. Maybe the next AFC submission will also pass, we'll see. If it does, I won't be the one to nominate it at AfD considering these new sources. Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 23:51, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I marked the page as patrolled (WP:NPP: not vandalism, not a hoax, not an obvious attack page, has the necessary AFC/WP tags). It's still pending WP:AFC review however, it'll be moved to mainspace if it's accepted. —PaleoNeonate – 00:15, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose I could just move it myself, but It seemed appropriate to wait until I could find somebody else to do the AFC review, given that this is a biographical article of a controversial person who is also currently in the news. --Salimfadhley (talk) 00:19, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I won't get in the way if you move it, but I agree that it's probably best to wait, —PaleoNeonate – 00:23, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The lead probably should include a claim of significance like when and why she became prominent, —PaleoNeonate – 02:04, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well it's partly there, it could probably be improved, so the reviewer immediately sees it, —PaleoNeonate – 02:06, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's a tricky question to answer... why is she prominent? She's a loud-mouthed activist who makes a lot of noise on twitter, insta. She got famous for being kicked off social networks and campaigned with David Icke, and other loonies. --Salimfadhley (talk) 20:04, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Considering she’s one of the leading voices in the UK when it comes to spreading misinformation, lies and conspiracy theories about the COVID-19 pandemic and in the last few months she has gained quite a bit of notability, I think she is notable enough for an article. There are more than enough reliable sources that can be used as references and 9/10 references to the so-called protests always mention her.--LeftiePete (talk) 16:39, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Style

In case these could help to improve the article:

—PaleoNeonate – 23:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, are there any specific concerns regarding style. I'm rather "close" to the article, so it can sometimes be hard to spot my own errors. --Salimfadhley (talk) 00:20, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
BLPs are not my forte and unfortunately I didn't really find there the actual list of suggested headers that I was looking for... I noticed that some citations were before the punctuation (the common style for some wikis like fr-Wikipedia, but en-WP expects them after the comma/fullstop). The lead has citations, which is less of a problem, but unnecessary if it's just a summary of the body. I could help with the citation cleanup later on too. There are other minor things that could be done like selecting a timestamp format (i.e. {{use dmy dates}} or another and making sure all dates use it...) An |access-date= parameter can also be useful for web citations, but it's less important than |date= that are already given. —PaleoNeonate – 00:31, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is it in British English? If so {{Use British English}} can also be added so it remains consistently so in the future, —PaleoNeonate – 00:44, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, thank you for these suggestions. --Salimfadhley (talk) 07:41, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Credentials, personal life, affiliations, activities

Are there sources covering basic aspects like birthday, family background, other beliefs, affilations or activities, etc? Many BLPs have a personal life section and if there's eventually an infobox (although it can also be useful in the lead), such details can be useful... —PaleoNeonate – 06:42, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've not seen any particularly good quality sources for the basic biographical data. Many newspapers have mentioned that she is 53 years old, but I don't have any actual source that confirms her age. --Salimfadhley (talk)
It possibly could be an argument for lack of notability and WP:1E (known mostly for one scandal, etc)... We'll see, —PaleoNeonate – 08:07, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Her name is “Kay Allison Shemirani”, but she goes by the name “Kate”. See [1].--LeftiePete (talk) 11:55, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
According to public records which contain details about her and are in relation to now defunct businesses she was associated with, she was born in January 1965. See [2] [3].--LeftiePete (talk) 11:58, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Redundancy in the conspiracy theories section

I realized that when adding more material from the Jewish Chronicle source (that I found good and confirmed to be reliable via WP:RSN archives) I also added a bit of redundancy to the section. It'd be a good idea to review/cleanup the whole section in relation to this... I could perhaps also help for that later but I'm likely to stop editing for today. I may also have tainted the text with Canadian/American English-isms. —PaleoNeonate – 08:17, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Genocide

In the other sources I was looking for this term but failing, it's now in however. The reason was that many such conspiracy theorists who promote global religious persecution myths also support some that go as far as genocidal claims, like: Great Replacement, White genocide conspiracy theory (an extreme identity-politics version of Christian persecution complex). Here it's another type of genocidal claim though that just alleges a general depopulation conspiracy? —PaleoNeonate – 09:16, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is par for the course in most conspiracies. Promoters need to up the threat of whatever stirs their paranoia. I suspect that they feel that only an existential threat like genocide can justify the level of fear that these individuals feel towards their subject. --Salimfadhley (talk) 09:25, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm yes... reminds me when I saw the Auschwitz comparison and thinking: whatever is outrageous enough to attract attention, controversy, publicity and clicks... —PaleoNeonate – 08:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Antisemitic canard

I'll just copy here text that is now removed, in case it merits reinsert: "Other conspiracy theories Shemirani promotes are reminescent of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and blood libel antisemitic hoaxes. An alleged small group of Jews are claimed to be running the New World Order." These were sourced to the first Jewish Chronicle source. —PaleoNeonate – 09:22, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is a tricky one: I am sure if we asked Shemirani "are you antisemitic" she would reply that she was not. She'd point to the fact that she never mentioned "the jews" in any of her speeches, and yet the writers of Jewish Chronicle raise a valid point which is that she builds her conspiracy theories on age-old theories which have clear roots in anti-Semitic conspiracy theories of which she may be wholly ignorant. Even if that were the case, I do not think she is excused. She is engaging in precisely the same mode of thought that demonized a race of people since the middle-ages. She is actively demonizing the scientists, doctors and other health professionals who are trying to combat the current and next pandemic. She's making a scape-goat of the engineers who are trying to build our communications infrastructure. She may be targeting different people but it's the same paranoid style. --Salimfadhley (talk) 20:02, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I now also saw that there's an existing mention of antisemitism anyway, I had missed it yesterday when typing the above because I didn't include a dash in my page-search. —PaleoNeonate – 08:35, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I honestly don't see how you can think that, based on the evidence that's been provided, that this woman is prejudiced against Jewish people. Based on the evidence, she clearly is more involved in the New World Order conspiracy theory and not the antisemitic conspiracy theory. The most obvious reason why she is not antisemitic is because she is comparing things she doesn't like with Nazi Germany. For example, she "has branded the National Health Service 'the new Auschwitz'" and "deemed that current measures by the government to tackle the pandemic were comparable to the Nazi Holocaust." Surely if she was truly prejudiced against Jewish people, she wouldn't use Nazi Germany as a negative comparison?
The article also says that her belief in "the 'Committee of 300' conspiracy theory, which paved the way for the notorious antisemitic forgery the Protocols of the Elders of Zion." This is not evidence of antisemitism but is far more obviously evidence for belief in New World Order conspiracy theories. The Committee of 300 conspiracy theory is, according to its own Wikipedia page, "actually deploring the oligarchic implications of this statement, and [does] not suggest that the 'Three hundred' were Jewish." The fact that it may have led to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion does not make belief in it any more antisemitic than it does an interest in the works of Nietzsche, which were actually appropriated by the Nazis.
The source also points to her posting a picture of the swastika with the word 'Clap!!!'. She is clearly parodying the clapping for the NHS trend in the UK as if it were like Nazi propaganda. Again, if she was actually prejudiced against Jewish people, why would she compare something she doesn't like to Nazi propaganda?
Also her criticism of Soros is mentioned but criticising George Soros, or any Jewish person, does not necessarily mean you're antisemitic. She doesn't criticise him for being Jewish, she criticises him for funding Black Lives Matter and for doing "what Hilter did." (Again, why would she criticise Soros for being like Hitler if she was antisemitic??)
I strongly suggest that this subsection be renamed 'New World Order Conspiracy Theories' for the sole reason that the evidence clearly points to this. She repeatedly refers to 'illuminati' and 'satanic elite' and these kind of ideas are not, in themselves, antisemitic in any way shape or form. The evidence for her being antisemitic is feeble in comparison if not completely non-existent.--DovicKnoble (talk) 20:02, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Orphan

It's probably possible to link to this article from another one and de-orphan Shemirani... —PaleoNeonate – 00:58, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe Talk:QAnon § New section for QAnon in the United Kingdom could be an opportunity to link to this article if it manifests, —PaleoNeonate – 03:08, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Do we have a source that clearly links Shemirani with the QAnon movement? I already linked to this article from Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic--Salimfadhley (talk) 08:46, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Good question, I saw mentions in the article but let's see the relationship: [4] only mentions that the gatherings included some QAnon promoters. Same with [5] and [6] that mention promoters present. It's probably too ambigious at this point and the aforementioned thread above is not active yet. Super for the link from the COVID-19 misinformation page, that's obviously relevant. Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 12:18, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism has begun

[7] --Salimfadhley (talk) 07:27, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

[8] --Salimfadhley (talk) 06:44, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

[9] --Salimfadhley (talk) 16:30, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Page Protection Requested

I have requested semi-protection because an IP user is repeatedly vandalising this article. [10] --Salimfadhley (talk) 06:52, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

New Photos

I attended an event organized by Ms Shemirani today and was able to take some photos. They have been contributed to Wikimedia Commons. c:Category:Kate_Shemirani. --Salimfadhley (talk) 18:46, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I did an adaptation of File:Kate Shemirani at speaking at Trafalgar Square 4.jpg for a portrait (background blurred and focus on the face), but it seems that Commons uploads no longer work with secured browsers. I could eventually try reuploading with another setup, —PaleoNeonate – 03:03, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea, I think a version with more focus on the subject would be clearer for readers. --Salimfadhley (talk) 08:47, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It was uploaded and applied, feel free to improve/revert if it's not ideal, —PaleoNeonate – 19:22, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References which have been removed from this article

This citation was recently removed from the article. I'm parking it here in case it becomes useful in the future. [1] --Salimfadhley (talk) 14:15, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My error, two articles by the same journalist a day apart for TJC. Very similar content, but some details are better in one than in the other and vice versa. Philip Cross (talk) 15:29, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, the article has been considerably improved. If you have any interest in this subject, would you look at Mark Steele (conspiracy theorist), please? --Salimfadhley (talk) 15:37, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Harpin, Lee (2020-09-09). "Revealed: anti-vaxx nurse at centre of Covid hate demos". The Jewish Chronicle. Retrieved 2020-09-13. Kate Shemirani–who has united the far left and far right activists–is a supporter of a notorious conspiracy theory.

Name

Has she ever revealed her maiden name? Her name is “Kay Allison”, but she uses the name “Kate”. There are sources which refer to her as “Kay Allison Shemirani”.--LeftiePete (talk) 21:38, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've not seen any sources which discuss her early life. I don't think she was involved in anything noteworthy at a time when she used any other name. --Salimfadhley (talk) 22:07, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This reminds me of this earlier talk page section, Talk:Kate Shemirani § Credentials, personal life, affiliations, activities. If you can find sources for these they would be a great addition to improve the article, —PaleoNeonate – 19:24, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm concerned about this section

Hey, @LeftiePete:, this recently added text seems too extreme:

"Shemirani believes that anyone who disagrees with her or accuses her of lying must be “lying, misinformed or jealous.” She also believes that in particular, “overweight, envious nurses come in for particular criticism” will disagree with her because as she stated during an interview: "

I do not think we (or any journalist) can say what Ms Shemirani believes. We can report on what she has said provided reliable secondary sources. In this case she made a particularly incendiary remark abut her opponents but we do not know whether this represents a true belief or simply an attempt to provoke. --Salimfadhley (talk) 22:10, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I understand this concern and have also noticed it so have done some minor copy-editing earlier. If I missed other instances they likely also should be improved. It's a common issue with articles on conspiracy theorists: it's always difficult to know the true motivations and beliefs of advocates and we should, like reliable sources, simply report on their visible actions, what they promote, etc. —PaleoNeonate – 19:27, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Salimfadhley: Well that is what the source states she said. I mean, she’s barking mad so it’s not like reasonable people are going to take any notice of what she says or claims anyway. Because of her experience as a nurse she knows a few fancy medical terms and uses them to try and camouflage her real agendas and motives e.g. anti-vaccines, conspiracy theories like the New World Order, QAnon, etc. But, as soon as she opens her mouth then the cat is let out of the bag. I’ve also watched videos on YouTube of her talking about Satanic develop worshipping, her so-called Christian beliefs guide her in this “war”, etc. Even before her recent activism she was promoting pseudoscientific crap about curing cancer. I do find it laughable that she thinks of herself as “very slim”, when she is quite clearly not, but that’s a different matter altogether. She’s always trying to provoke people... she compared a Jew to Adolf Hitler and repeatedly posted images of Hitler and Nazi symbols. She has made snide remarks about Priti Patel during her speeches at protests. She makes up crap all of the time.--LeftiePete (talk) 11:53, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Section and sub-sections

She believes in more than just conspiracy theories about COVID-19 so I’ve created a section titled “Promotion of conspiracy theories” and created different sub-sections.--LeftiePete (talk) 21:08, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Quoting tweet

It's probably unnecessary and generally discouraged, we even have secondary reliable sources covering those claims instead. —PaleoNeonate – 01:55, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is there anything wrong with quoting one of her tweets? It's not like the article is littered all over with her silly tweets.--LeftiePete (talk) 12:49, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting semi-protection of this page

This page has been subject to vandalism and edit-warring recently. As a consequence I have requested semi-protection again. --Salimfadhley (talk) 19:11, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Salimfadhley: I’ve done the same. Persistent IP vandalism is becoming tiresome to keep reverting every day.--LeftiePete (talk) 12:49, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BBC have released an interview with Kate Shemirani's son

This interview is actually very sad. Sebastian Shemirani describes his mother as being a "narcissist" with a "god complex". It must be awful to loose a parent to conspiracy theories. --Salimfadhley (talk) 22:53, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Alas, no usable print sources on this interview as yet. Philip Cross (talk) 10:53, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
BBC have released a text version which should be easier to cite. --Salimfadhley (talk) 12:17, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It’s really a religious cult, not a conspiracy theory. I have some experience of it as a one time member.

They kind of consider themselves to be “higher beings” that have been awoken by ancient spiritual forces, and they’re doing the work of god to fight satanic forces. I’m not joking at all about this - this is how they all talk, in private. But that’s the key thing - all the damage is done in their private social media groups. They’re smart enough to know that they need to talk differently in public. So, in public they tend to stick to more mainstream topics, such as Covid or 5g or child trafficking, or fighting the deep state- but in secret, they believe satanic forces control all of these things.

So, people like Kate join these private social media groups, without their families knowing. And while they’re in these groups they’re getting the same constant message - about how they’re these enlightened beings, awoken by ancient spiritual powers, to save the world from Satan etc etc. And about how any attempts by friends and families to change their mind is actually the work of satanic forces.

I believe her son says in the video that she often texts him, very distressed, telling him his life is in danger from the CIA. Well, see my statement above. That’s how cults brainwash people and keep people loyal - she thinks satanic forces have got to her son, and she’s the saviour.

To conclude, people are maybe redeemable if it’s less than a year. But I know over 50 people still in these conspiracy theory/cults, and I don’t think any of them will leave in the next decade. I mean, their wives have left them, and they’ve lost access to their children, and they dont care.

I mean, I know a young mother who had her baby taken away and adopted because her social media/conspiracy posts were so disturbing. And she loved the baby dearly, and it was devastating. But she loved the conspiracy more. She could have got the baby back by improving her behaviour on social media, but she’s refused to. And its all because she believes she’s this important person, whose been awoken to save the world. And that’s more important than anything. Which is what they all believe.

2A02:C7F:18AE:4900:3592:8F57:7A77:6E7F (talk) 14:51, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you. Let's not use this article's talk page as a discussion forum. I'd appreciate hearing more from you. Would you be willing to contact me via my personal talk page and we can continue this discussion elsewhere. --Salimfadhley (talk) 11:46, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion

This page should be deleted. She’s an absolute nobody. I mean, it’s hard to even find an article about her. Appearing in 1 daily mail article? That’s the criteria for being a public figure?

2A02:C7F:18AE:4900:3592:8F57:7A77:6E7F (talk) 14:23, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to nominate the article for deletion. The nomination process is described here. --Salimfadhley (talk) 11:44, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kate Shemirani is banned from Twitter

In the news on November 4th: Sussex Covid-19 conspiracy theorist banned from Twitter --Salimfadhley (talk)

Date of birth

Citation needed for date of birth. Daily Mail has it but that isn't considered reliable. There's a holistic site of some sort that also includes the full date of birth, but that doesn't appear reliable either. Laval (talk) 07:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What do people think of using the following source for her birthday?
https://bbsradio.com/guestson/guest-kay-allison-shemirani--LeftiePete (talk) 15:56, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not a good idea. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 07:33, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's not right, not neutral, to have: "...is conspiracy theorist" as opening statement.

'Conspiracy theorist' has a negative connotation, and is in fact a judgement (from several media). Therefore, it seems not right, not neutral, to have as Wikipedia's opening statement that someone "is conspiracy theorist". More neutral is, to state that Kate Shemirani is activist - that's how she became known, also to us - who is labeled conspiracy theorist by some.

That was the main purpose of my (clearly motivated) edit on 13 November, which was reverted within two minutes without any substantial countering motivation ("better before"??). (One thing was missing though in my edit attempt: I could/should have given two ref sources for the phrase "who is labeled by some news media as conspiracy theorist", for example refs 1 (Times) and 4 (Jewish Chronicle) from the current lead section.)

There's no point for me to start an edit war against Roxy the dog (and people who will come to his aid) so I advertise this disagreement here on talk page. --Corriebertus (talk) 14:18, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It was better before your edit, that is why I reverted you. It is well sourced that she is a conspiracy theorist, and policy requires us to have that which makes a living person notable at front and centre of a BLP. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 14:56, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm with Roxy on this. We (in WP and generally) cannot be so non-judgmental as to reject the existence of facts. If there is objectively no such a thing as a conspiracy theory, then everything is opinion and encyclopaedias have no value. 112.119.116.84 (talk) 09:43, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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