Talk:Changi Airport

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Archive 1: December 2004 to September 2006

Names in multiple languages

Currently, Changi Airport's many names in many languages are listed both in the infobox and in the first sentence. Why is this necessary? Can't we just list them once in the infobox, where they don't disrupt the flow of the text?

(Please note that "some other articles do it this way too" is not a valid argument in my book; see also [1].) Jpatokal 04:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as folks in some wikiproject are concerned, however, consistency in presentation does preoccupy alot of their time. To dismiss the fact that other articles may also include an extensive list of names in the introduction (with each language clearly indicated) seems a little disjointed from the community direction here.--Huaiwei 13:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:AIRPORTS is neither here nor there with this issue, so lets not flog that horse again! The relevant guidelines are WP:LEAD and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)#Include alternatives. A useful quote from the former:

"If there is a significant number of alternative names or forms it may be helpful to keep only the most common two or three in the first paragraph and a list of them in a separate section or footnote to avoid cluttering the lead; see Freyr for an example of this."

I understand the intent of that policy. But mind tell us which name is "most common" in this context then?--Huaiwei 17:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Um, English? Jpatokal 09:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh really? So are you suggesting English is the "most common" language used in Singapore?--Huaiwei 15:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

This would seem to be pointing out the obvious, but yes?

Please provide any statistical evidence stating that English is the "most common" language used in Singapore.--Huaiwei 15:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I can only presume you think this is funny. You will note that, for example, Languages of Singapore notes that English is "the business and working language" and is "used to teach all academic subjects in primary schools". SingStat [2] notes that 71% of Singaporeans are literate in English (meaning that an even higher percentage can speak it!), as opposed to 65% for Chinese. Happy now? Jpatokal 06:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Why you should find humour in a serious topic as this is beyond me. Let me stress, that the "most common" language used in Singapore is not neccesarily correlated with literacy. I may understand English, but that dosent mean I want to use it. Census statistics from the same source clearly shows that "Vernacular languages continue to be the most common languages spoken at home by the three main ethnic groups", and not English. Wikipedia is based on common usage, and not literacy.--Huaiwei 17:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Naturally each ethnic group has its own mother tongue, but what's the one language that binds them all together? English. What language would a Chinese person speak to an Indian? English. If signs or literature are written in only one language in Singapore, what language is used? English. Therefore, English is the most common language in Singapore. I've given my arguments and presented the facts, now it's your turn: if it's not English, then what language is more common? Jpatokal 10:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I would be greatly amused if National Education worms its way into wikpiedia in this manner! ;) A "binding language" is not neccesarily the most "common language". What you just wrote is only what you assume is correct hypethetically. Do you have statistical data to support your claim, which I have, and which already answers your last question? Meanwhile, may I just point out, that the "binding language" for Singaporeans is not just English. Malay (or more specifically, Baba Malay) happens to be the lingua-franca for Singaporeans for centuries, and remains so for most Singaporeans in their 40s onwards. I am beginning to wonder just how familiar are you with Singapore not to be aware of this basic fact?--Huaiwei 10:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's stick to the facts instead of going into ad hominem, and I'll stay quiet about your spelling and grammar mistakes. Remember, this is an encyclopedia, so the target audience is literate readers, and the stats above are perfectly clear on the point that the language Singaporeans are most likely to be literate in is English. Do you dispute this? If yes, where is your evidence? Jpatokal 04:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I draw my comments from the same facts you tried to use, and which you obviously cannot utilise properly. This is Singapore, and if you want to use Singaporean statistics, you have to apply it in the Singapore context. You basically ripped out information from one section on literacy, and proclaims that language as the most commonly used language. The exact same source counters this assumption with statistical facts. You also fail to notice, that in subsequent statistics, there is higher literacy in Chinese and Malay for their respective ethnic groups by significant amounts, both of which also make up a far larger proportion of Singapore's total population. So I throw the question back at you. Are you ignoring certain sections of that same source in order to fit your agenda?--Huaiwei 11:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

That was a yes or no question. "The language Singaporeans are most likely to be literate in is English. Do you dispute this?" Yes or no? Jpatokal 14:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I dispute your understanding of the relationship between literacy and common usage. I am not compelled to answer a question I deem inappriopriate in this regard.--Huaiwei 16:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Just to make this crystal clear: I'm fine with keeping the other official languages in the infobox, but this is the English Wikipedia for an English-speaking country and there is no point in cluttering the first paragraph with the rest. Tell me which is more important for the average Wikipedia reader: the fact that Changi is "a major aviation hub" (now on the third line in my browser), or that the Mandarin pinyin reading of its hanzi is "Xīnjiāpō Zhāngyí Jīchǎng" (now on the first)? Jpatokal 08:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Relative importance is but a matter of personal tastes. I personally consider the name of an entity the most important element over its quality and characteristics. And here in Singapore, where there are four official languages, it is only proper that all four names should be included as local languages in the introduction. It may add clutter for the unitiated, but is vital in multi-cultural Singapore.--Huaiwei 15:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

So should we also list the names of Changi Airport in Icelandic, Telugu and Proto-Quechua? This is an article about an airport, not multi-culturalism, and its audience is not just four million Singaporeans with axes to grind, but eight billion people in the entire world. Again, what is wrong with listing the languages only in the infobox? Jpatokal 06:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Are Icelandic, Telugu and Proto-Quechua official languages in Singapore? I can only presume you think this is funny. That official languages are added to an article related to that political entity is not confined to Singapore-related articles. Would you like to propose removing all non-English titles in all articles across wikipedia, instead of choosing to nitpick on this one? I have already stated why I object to using an infobox compared to inline-texts. You only need to open your eyes and read and type less often.--Huaiwei 17:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The only argument I see from you is that it's "only proper" to keep the names in the lead, which is a non-sequitur. (In my opinion, it's "only proper" to keep them out!). Again, I have nothing against listing the official languages in the infobox, but they are not of primary importance for this English-language article.

Incidentally, would you be in favor of listing the names of Delhi Airport in India's official languages in the first paragraph -- all 22 of them? Or you would find that kind of silly? Jpatokal 10:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

India has 23 official languages, but only Hindi and English are stipulated for official usage by the Central government. In Singapore, however, all four languages enjoy the same privileges in official capacity. While I explained why it is "proper" to add all four official languages, your only reasoning for their removal is nothing more than "removing clutter". NPOV vs presentation. Who prevails? The answer is obvious.--Huaiwei 10:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. I agree that it's obvious, and have solicited third opinions from Wikipedia talk:Lead section in the hope that they'll enlighten you too. Jpatokal 04:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

When we have someone who actually thinks Singapore is in China, I suppose that's third opinions for you. Perhaps the path of enlightenment goes the opposite way than what you intend.--Huaiwei 11:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Resetting indentation... I agree that the alternate names should only be in the infobox. English and maybe one other should be in the first paragraph. This is the English language WP, so English should be the first thing listed in every article. In the Chinese WP, Chinese should be listed first, and English can go in the infobox if that's what the editors decide. Having too many languages clutters up the paragraph, and if they're in the infobox, they are still prominent and at the top of the page. A better example than India is South Africa, with 10 or so official languages, all of which actually are "official". Should Johannesburg Int'l have all of them in the first paragraph? DB (talk) 15:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the English name does lead this article, so I do not see it contravening your first assertion, and your comparision with non-English sites. What constitutes "clutter" is but a matter of astetics and personal preferences. You need not compare Singapore's case with extreme examples such as India or South Africa, because Singapore-related articles arent bounded by naming conventions for their respective articles. Could you show any wikipedia-wide convention directly ruling out the possibility of having multiple official language names in the introduction?

After so long, this has been the first time any wikipedian has attempted to argue against the Singaporean practise of displaying all four languages. Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore) went through countless reviews and reached FA status, but no one complained about its multi-lingual introduction. Some other airport pages, including Hong Kong International Airport, have an even more unweldy introduction (and Hong Kong, an FA, has almost the entire first paragraph to itself just on various versions of its name alone), yet I dont see either editor here complaining. So care to explain the sudden keen interest in this and other Singapore-related articles?--Huaiwei 16:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I never really thought about it until this discussion came up. Now that I look at it, the Hong Kong one looks crappy too. DB (talk) 23:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

And why arent we surprised by that comment? ;) It would be interesting to observe how a tiny number of individuals are going to go round telling others how to present their articles over and beyond the MoS...with "looks crappy" being the main source of contention.--Huaiwei 17:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Daddy mack, the reason I've editing on Wikipedia for three years and counting is to make this a better, more informative and more readable encyclopedia — and I presume this drives you too? I think the current opening sentence with its slew of names violates WP:LEAD, and so far the numbers are four in favor (me, DB, Circeus, Sebastian) and two against (you and wangi). Jpatokal 02:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Lord justice, since you are so inclined to WikiLawyering, may I seek your enlightenment on just how the current opening sentence violates WP:LEAD? The closest I could find were the words "clear and accessible style", which is, of coz, purely subjective. The same guideline specifies that the lead "may include variations," which aptly descripes what this article does. If these articles are indeed a violation of WP:LEAD, then care to explain how they could reach FA status, and how this could become a GA? And you can spare your effort finding "concensus" through numbers. Is Wikipedia an experiement in democracy? yes? no?. You go check it up yourself.--Huaiwei 12:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You know, I really haven't been argumentative here, and the admins are already annoyed with you for picking fights with people. You might want to watch how you phrase your replies. Any time someone points out something that should be changed in a Singapore-related article, you seem to take it as an attack on the entire country. DB (talk) 05:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe there is a distinctive difference between disagreeing over facts/presentation and picking a fight. Would you mind showing evidence for this accusation, and could you please list me the specific admins who were annoyed at this? It appears that I arent the only one who needs to "watch my phrasing", because "picking a fight" certainly does not sound very cordial. If you think I take your actions as being targetted against an entire country, then that is merely your deduction. I do, however, have an issue with individuals who choose not to appreciate the fact that there ARE location-specific articles who attempt to keep to a certain standardised presentation format (as is the case for sg-related and hk-related articles), just as you insist on keeping all aviation-related articles to another format. So in what way do your "standardisation rules" overide that of other "standardisation guidelines"? What utter hypocrisy.--Huaiwei 12:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Skimming your talk page for block notices, I found that Joelito, WinHunter, William M. Connolley, and novacatz all blocked and/or chastised you for fighting or edit-warring. And yes, whenever someone starts pointing out parts of a Singapore-related article that should be changed, you immediately respond very defensively by asking why they are trying to invade Singapore-related articles. It's not all articles about Singapore; it's this one. Furthermore, overarching WP-wide guidelines (such as how to format the lead paragraph) do override specific content guidelines on articles for individual countries. In case you didn't notice, no one has just gone through and removed the text in question. We are trying to say why it should be removed, though. These aren't my guidelines. The paragaph was tagged for fixing by someone else. DB (talk) 15:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Lets put things in perspective here. Are each of these admins "annoyed with me for picking fights with people"? Did you solicite their opinions? These admins were trying their best to contain a long-drawn political dispute I have with another specific individual, so in what way does that amount to holding a personal annoyance against me as a person? Seriously, if you are just trying to say you are the one feeling annoyed, just say so. There is no need to implicate others. And of course. In what way is that dispute related to this dispute over here?

You comment that "whenever someone starts pointing out parts of a Singapore-related article that should be changed, you immediately respond very defensively by asking why they are trying to invade Singapore-related articles" followed by "It's not all articles about Singapore; it's this one." Very interesting and amusing. I would certainly love to see you justifying that statement above with all relevant diffs. And yes, I would safely assume "whenever" equates to "every single time". Show it. Oh, and care to comment why this seems to happen only in this article?

You comment, that "overarching WP-wide guidelines (such as how to format the lead paragraph) do override specific content guidelines on articles for individual countries." Is this an assumption, or is this based on relevant guidelines? Show it.

As for the final statements, what makes you feel they are neccesary? Are wikipedians not entitled to comment on a proposal until they have come into effect? Is there a need to remind that this is merely a proposal, as thou others are censored from commenting until it is too late? As for what constitutes "your" guidelines, I dont suppose its an entirely alien concept for you to assume "ownership" of wikipedia's assets? I am still amused by your comments on the order of continents in Airline destinations, for some reason. ;)--Huaiwei 16:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting you bring that article up, since your reply to my comments on the Continental Airlines destinations article got you blocked for a week. DB (talk) 23:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Resetting indentation...

And I tought I brought up Airline destinations, not Continental Airlines destinations. But since we are at it, are you suggesting the said admin blocked me for a week because he was "annoyed with me"?--Huaiwei 07:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd been very careful not to state anything here until there was a greater consensus and the hostilities had ended, but apparently that's not going to happen. I suppose it's time to the throw the proverbial hat into the ring. While I do see the importance of having the name in multiple languages, namely the locally important ones, I have to say that having them in the infobox serves the exact same purpose just as well. The only thing that's different is the name of the language which it is in does not show up in the infobox. However, if you don't understand Pinyin, for example, it does no good to be told that the name is in fact in Pinyin. Almost everybody skips over the names in languages they are unfamiliar with anyway and Singaporeans are no different. If we were to add the name in Spanish, French, German, etc. we'd see them speedily removed. On a side note, I was the one that put it in the To-do list to trim down the lead paragraphs. They are fairly choppy to read and even I could not make out all of what it says in the first reading. As per WP:LEAD:

The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and describing its notable controversies, if there are any. It should be between one and four paragraphs long, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, and should be written in a clear and accessible style so that the reader is encouraged to read the rest of the article.

Do the lead paragraphs in this article meet that? Not that I can see. I'll be soliciting the opinions of other editors who have contributed to this article in order to get their feedback here, and possibly a few admins as well. The only thing I can say is that this sounds like a violation of WP:POINT. thadius856_talk 16:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not think we should only have the alt names in the infobox. Thanks/wangi 13:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you explain your reasoning? Jpatokal 16:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

--- observations by an Admin there is a consensus to remove some of the titles in other languages. As a lot of uses do not have east Asian character support most people see the Chinese and Tamil versions would appear as ???? to most users. As per wikipedia standards wikipedia should not be browser or extension specific it should be readable to every one. And as such I am going to remove the said material. please do not go against wikipedia standards and consensus and re add them Betacommand ^{(talk • contribs • Bot)} 16:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I do believe that Huaiwei may be somewhat confrontational. That's not a good thing. I also note that there are about 3 or 4 editors who have voiced their rather strong opinions about the other languages. I personally don't think the other languages should be in the text if another place could be found to put them. However, it is important to note that most articles tended by SGpedians consistently have the names in the other languages. This issue should not be discussed alone in this article; it should be discussed as a whole. Until the issue can be resolved, and unless the presence of the other names explicitly violates rules, the status quo which has existed for several reviews should remain. --Rifleman 82 17:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no concensus to remove only Asian-script text in this article, and is it not a wikiwide-concensus to do so too. Removing them at this time by claiming "standards and concensus" when they do not exist goes against wikipedian guidelines.--Huaiwei 02:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I came across this article as I noticed the reversion and have some thoughts. What is the airport called on the road signs to the airport ? - Do the various different languages exist on all the roadsigns and on the terminal building. If so, then leave the article as is, but if not, then simply display the name displayed and any English translation as necessary. London Heathrow Airport has potentially dozens of different names around the world, including at least 4 additional different names in Britain & Ireland alone (the Scots, Gaelic, Welsh and Irish). Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 18:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Although I am not a native Singaporean, can I add that Singapore holds all 4 languages as her official languages, and this itself is a good enough reason to have the name of the airport in its four different languages listed here. On another note, for naming problems, wouldn't it be better for the locals to hold a general concensus on what is best for the page; after all, it is a reflection of Singapore and her image. le petit vagabond 18:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

In response to User:Heligoland: I cannot recall what *exactly* is written at Changi Airport. However, to my knowledge, all government-owned buildings (schools, community centers, ministries, police stations) have their names written outside in all four languages. English is the most prominent, but I must emphasize that all four languages are included. On the streets, only English is used, with certain exceptions such as Chinatown, and more touristy spots where Japanese may occur. --Rifleman 82 19:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Sg-related articles are actually working towards a presentation style which mimics that of some government buildings: Four official names proudly displayed at or near the entrance, but the main building name in English for all to see from afar. Thus, wikipedian articles have their article names in English where appriopriate, but show the other official languages in the leading sentence. Wikipedia is not a road signboard, and is not restricted by the amount of metal space, just as it is not paper and is not restricted by a physical page.--Huaiwei 02:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." -William Shakespeare

As I see it, the fact that government buildings in Singapore have multiple languages on them is unimportant. Where I live, in San Jose, California, the demographics show a very broad racial makeup. Many of our restaurants and businesses have names in English, Spanish, and at least 2 Asian languages (Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Cantonese, Tagalog, Mandarin, etc etc!). Even more impressive is that you'll very rarely find a car dealership in the region that deals in less than 15 languages/dialects or doesn't advertise this. Does that mean an article on one of them should include all of the names? No! Perhaps they might be useful in an infobox, but the names in other languages are largely unimportant and are definitely undeserving of being placed in the lead itself as implied in WP:LEAD and complicates matters regarding WP:0.5. While Singapore and the United States may have different official languages, common usage is more important than what is and isn't officially recognized. Open the article I linked above and you'll notice that the proper name of my city is The City of San Jose, though it's rarely spoken or written; the title reflects this and it's only mentioned as a blurb at the end of the lead. thadius856_talk 22:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

But the difference is we are not asking to list 15 languages, nor are we listing every language which appears in roadsigns anywhere in Singapore. We are listing names only in the four official languages. Yes, common usage is important, but that is precisely why the article name itself conforms to this standard. Are there any wikipedian guidelines which specify less common names must be removed from the leading paragraphs?--Huaiwei 02:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

From WP:LEAD:

"The relative weight given to points in the lead should reflect the relative weight given to each in the remainder of the article."

"A significant argument not mentioned after the lead should not be mentioned in the lead."

From WP:PERFECT:

"A perfect Wikipedia article...

..."starts with a clear description of the subject; the lead introduces and explains the subject and its significance clearly and accurately, without going into excessive detail."

..."is engaging; the language is descriptive and has an interesting, encyclopedic tone."

In WP:1.0, it has been proposed that only the lead section of most articles be included, unless they are of higher importance, which this airport is not in the grand scheme of things. Do you not agree that if this were to happen, the current lead would be a disservice to most readers? thadius856_talk 05:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

All relevant points you sourced from the above two are once again a matter of personal tastes, and does not directly rule out current practises in this article. What you pointed out from WP:LEAD refers to what factual points or argument should be discussed in the leading paragraphs. The various names of a specific entity hardly amount to being a "factual point" or "argument" in my book, even if you consider them as such. WP:PERFECT talks about being informative "without going into excessive detail". What you consider as being "excessive" may be considered "informative" for another reader (and I do notice folks who usually consider it "excessive" are North American individuals who also happen to find no reason to install any language reader for any language outside the Euro-American sphere. WP:BIAS seems relevant here as well). But how is WP:1.0 relevant to this discussion, anyhow?--Huaiwei 07:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Personally I think the English and Chinese names should be in the lead, with the other official names as a footnote (compare with SIN's offical website which only has those languages available). However I don't really think there's anything wrong with having all the official names in the lead... /wangi 23:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with you, Wangi, that Chinese should remain—I'm not sure that was ever contested by anybody. But pinyin, Tamil and Malay are not needed. thadius856_talk 05:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Strongly disagree. Why should Chinese be included, but not the other two? As Vision says, doing so introduces a grave bias as far as local context is concerned. In fact, I have to point out ethnic Malays did express unhappiness over the sole inclusion of Chinese translations in some sg-related articles early on in the project, and went about adding Malay names. This is only understandable, and the subsequent practise of having all four names included should be sustained.--Huaiwei 07:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

As stated above, I've no problem with keeping all four (hang me now, "WP:AIRPORTS" and on the same "side" as Huaiwei! ;). However the airport's website itself only has options for English and Chinese - do they devalue the other official languages of Singapore? BTW, what's shown in the airport on signs, all four/five languages? Thanks/wangi 00:03, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Keep all 4. It only takes 150 Bytes, no big deal. All four are official names, and removing any one (or two) constitutes systemic bias. Bear in mind that these are useful information, especially to non-native-english and multilingual readers. I personally find the inclusion of Chinese name very helpful. And since it has an official chinese name, it should be presented upfront, following the english name; same for Malay and Tamil. It may not be useful to all of you, but please be considerate to other readers and fellow contributors. Again, it only takes 150 bytes; after all, we presented the entire La Marseillaise in French without any complaints. --Vsion 06:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

While this page only has 4 languages and may or may not look cluttered (personally, I think it does), there are other countries with even more - such as South Africa, which I mentioned - so the question is where to draw the line. I don't think the people here support listing all 10 of South Africa's official languages on all the articles, so how many is too many? DB (talk) 20:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Unless you (or anybody) wishes to go on a crusade to purge wikipedia of undesirable alternate language names, and unless there are wikipedia-wide rules which specifically prohibit these names, I think that the presence/absence/line drawn should be dictated by a consensus of the people in those wikiprojects tending to the articles. Uniformity and consistency is definitely a good thing but these policy issues really shouldn't be discussed in this page: Talk:Singapore Changi Airport, with this limited number of respondents. Side note: I think the pinyin should go because pinyin isn't one of the 4 languages in Singapore. Merely a representation. --Rifleman 82 20:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Not particularly. I was also under the impression that WP:LEAD dictated that multiple languages shouldn't be listed. It looks like there's a proposal for that on the talk page, but until that's officially added to the Manual of Style, I guess it makes sense to evaluate on a case-by-case basis. I agree that Pinyin should be dropped though. Maybe a compromise here? DB (talk) 22:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I was also under the impression that WP:LEAD dictated that multiple languages shouldn't be listed. I challenge you to quote the specific guideline which specifically rules against the inclusion of multiple languages as alternative names in the lead sentence/paragraphs.--Huaiwei 23:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

"I think that the presence/absence/line drawn should be dictated by a consensus of the people in those wikiprojects tending to the articles."

The only objections here to removing the names, so far as I can tell, are not members of WP:AIRPORTS. Huaiwei has openly and publicly stated that he has no desire to ever join the project, on the project's talk page no less. Have you conceeded mistakenly, or are we finally coming to somewhat of a close? By the way, the proposal was never to rid the article of the alternate names anyway, but simply to have them in the infobox only, at least as far as I see. thadius856_talk 22:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Neither. While WP:AIRPORTS tends this page, so does SGpedians, and the Architecture group as well, from the banner. I don't know why the SGpedians haven't placed their banner here, but the presence/absence of a banner is not definitive. What I can note is that looking at the article's revisions, prominent members of SGpedians such as User:Mailer Diablo, User:Sengkang, User:Terence Ong, and User:Vsion have made contributions. Think about it this way. It would be rather upsetting if people belonging to the Singapore group not to have a say in how the article of a Singapore airport works. --Rifleman 82 22:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Apparently we had a misunderstanding on that one. I was trying to communicate how I find it ironic that you say it should be handled by the WikiProject with jurisdiction, yet then move it yourself to SGpedians instead, which is not a WikiProject. I wasn't saying that SGpedians should have no say in this. Are we clear(er) now, Rifleman? thadius856_talk 23:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I am clear now, that you find it ironic because SGpedians is not a wikiproject, while Airports is. That's my mistake for not knowing the difference. (I still don't know the difference beyond the semantics.) That said, my whole point was that the inclusion/deletion/modification of the names in other language in the lead paragraph should be synchronized with all the other Singapore articles, hence this is not the right place for discussion. --Rifleman 82 23:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Ideally, it should be at the center of a discussion for a policy on this across all of en.wiki. But since we know that probably won't happen any time soon, I agree that SGpedians is probably the best place for the time being.

I've raised this issue at Wikipedia talk:SGpedians' notice board; if you or any other interested party is interested in a productive discussion, do drop by there. --Rifleman 82 22:39, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

As per my post over in Wikipedia talk:SGpedians' notice board: I find it nonsensical that jurisdiction over articles is now being fought over based on nothing but project banners. I remember there was a time disagreements were so heated over the content of the article that the Singapore Changi page was even removed from the Airport project. Would you like us to go down this path once again? We very well might if this kind of provincial thinking persists. Wikipedia is a SHARED project. Try arguing against that.--Huaiwei 23:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't see how a trivial matter has turned into a hairsplitting issue. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 23:20, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Huaiwei has openly and publicly stated that he has no desire to ever join the project, on the project's talk page no less. Could you find the relevant quotes stating that I wont ever join that project? I hope you arent making such definitive decisions on my behalf, but without my consent.--Huaiwei 23:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

How am I making any "decisions" on your behalf, Huaiwei? You posted it yourself, reading: "On the other hand, I do not feel welcome here, and chose not to be part of this project despite my long extensive study and keen interest in aviation-related topics." in this [3] edit.

This is my take on the issue: WP:AIRPORTS deals only with the structure of airport articles, and hence the article should reflect that. But the language and text of the article, including the inclusion or noninclusion of the multiple names, is the decision of the SGpedians, and the article should reflect that. My real opinion is that there would be middle ground on this issue (I see no American airports running into issues with WP:USA), but if we have to split jurisdiction (and I do NOT want to see this happen), here is my proposal. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 23:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any arguments that WP:AIRPORTS should have jurisdiction here, so I'm not sure why it keeps coming up. DB (talk) 23:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The proposal is extremely divisive, I admit that. I don't want to go down that road. It is only a proposal of last resort, when this dispute becomes so heated it becomes an ultimate joke. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 23:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the word "jurisdiction" has some sort of WikiConnotation I'm unfamiliar with? Let me try to explain what I was intending to mean. For example, William III of England would fall under WP:BIO, WP:UK and WP:MILHIST. Is there something I haven't been told here? :\ thadius856_talk 00:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I hope WP:AIRPORTS is not forming the dogma that it can dictate the editorial decision of other contributors. The aim of Wikiproject is to establish guidelines, not rules and regulations. --Vsion 02:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

You're entirely correct, Vsion. However, just because some of us who have chipped into the discussion are participants in the project does not mean that we are speaking in an official capacity or that our opinions reflect concensus on the part of the project. I know I'm not speaking for anybody else. thadius856_talk 05:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

A mediation cabal case has been opened, could involved parties please state their stand regarding the dispute, and why you think the names should stay/go? Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-11-18 Singapore Changi Airport#Discussion, please. Thanks. – Chacor 02:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Peer Review

I requested a peer review yesterday and was glad to see that an automated bot trolled the article and gave some general comments on the subject. I not only proofread and copyedited the article through the Ground Handling section (too long for one sitting), I also corrected its suggestions throughout the entire article.

Criteria of the automated review I have addressed include:

• Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:MOSDATE, months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.
• Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:BTW, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006, but do not link January 2006.
• Per WP:MOS, avoid using words/phrases that indicate time periods relative to the current day. For example, recently and previous [day/week/month/year] might be terms that should be replaced with specific dates/times.
• Temporal terms like “over the years”, “currently”, “now”, and “from time to time” often are too vague to be useful, but occasionally may be helpful. “I am now using a semi-bot to generate your peer review.”
• Per WP:MOSNUM, there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 18mm, use 18 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 18 mm.
• Per WP:MOSNUM, when doing conversions, please use standard abbreviations: for example, miles -> mi, kilometers squared -> km², and pounds -> lb.
• Per WP:MOSNUM, please spell out source units of measurements in text; for example, "the Moon is 380,000 kilometres (240,000 mi) from Earth.
• Please alphabetize the interlanguage links.
• Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) may be too long- consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per WP:SS.*As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space inbetween. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2]

If anybody else would like to pitch in, there are more issues to be addressed. Please see Wikipedia peer review or the WikiProject Airports Peer review department for more information. thadius856_talk 06:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Air Traffic for 3 runway configuration?

for 2 runway planes for each runway can turn in opposition direction to from a ciruit. how would it work for 3 runway, does the center runway fly straight until it is clear of the traffic on both sides? ;P Akinkhoo 14:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, the center runway (02C/20C in this case) is only for straight-in approaches. You can't run traffic patterns on a center runway unless one of the others is closed. thadius856_talk 18:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Good Article Review

Reasons I passed this article:

• The article contains a lot of high quality information, which is written in a simple enough form.
• The article covers a large scope of information.
• The article is well referenced and sources are used throughout.
• There are numerous images and photographs which compliment the article well.
• The quality of the article more than justifies its length and size.

The article can be improved further by finishing off the 'To-do' list at the top of this page - it covers several minor things. --Sagaciousuk ^(talk) 22:06, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Names in multiple languages (Reprise)

OK, as per this mediation cabal _{(There is no Cabal)} case, can someone please leave only the English name of the airport in the lead, moving the other names into the infobox? (I'm assuming that the case is closed as no one has posted there for a while, and several people have agreed to this idea. Of course, if you wish to dispute this, just leave a message below this one saying that you wish to dispute, and then actually dispute it in the Mediation Cabal case page). I'd do it myself but I don't want to start another edit war... Thanks. The Duke of Singapore Changi Airport 22:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

It appears that the dicussion there has been pretty one sided. I, of course, object to the above initiative as per reasons already detailed above.--Huaiwei 16:46, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

You were notified of the MedCab case on your talk page, as you were listed as one of the parties involved. Given that you declined to comment for the length of the case, which was left open for well over 4 weeks, should it not be seen that you abstained from participating? thadius856_{talk|airports|neutrality} 02:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

For your information, the notice was dropped in my talk page on 1 December 2006 [4], which by my calculations hardly amount to a month (why it takes 13 days before a notice appears in my talk page...I have no idea).--Huaiwei 12:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

That's the day the case opened, I suppose, though it was created about 4 weeks ago. We all received the notice on the same day, within minutes of each other. Regardless of my math error, all parties were notified and the case was left open until no comment had been left for a substantial amount of time. thadius856_{talk|airports|neutrality} 06:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Well thank you for at least admitting that mathematical error. I am very disturbed when I am being portrayed as having happily ignored a MedCab for an entire month when the duration was merely half of that.--Huaiwei 17:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

• Huaiwei: please post at the case page; comments left here will not be taken into account by the Mediation Cabal as an article's talk page is not a part of the Mediation Cabal jurisdiction. Thanks.

The Duke of Singapore Changi Airport 12:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, the article has been changed in accordance with the Cabal case, and no one has officially argued against the ruling... therefore the case is closed. The Duke of Singapore Changi Airport 10:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I reverted the move. I was personally opposed to the way the MedCab process was conducted, hence my decision to abstain from it. And is it the business of the Mediation Cabal to effect a change when it is obvious that the involved parties are not representative, and that no "compromise" has actually been put into effect?--Huaiwei 12:06, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

It is not the fault of the MedCab if you abstained from the case. Since you did indeed do so, you don't have the right to tell us that we're wrong/ You had a chance to express your thoughts, and you didn't. – Chacor 12:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Please elaborate on my rights, for as far as I can tell, no one has ever told me just what my rights are pretaining to the MedCab. Please also show me the relevant guidelines or legislature which governs these rights.--Huaiwei 13:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at your own talk page: [5]. Or if that's too much work, click on WP:MEDCAB, which is the first link in the message above.

Incidentally, Huaiwei, a genuine question: what would it take to make you change your mind? What parties are in your opinion "representative" and what forum would be the correct place to address this dispute? Jpatokal 06:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Did anyone inform me about the medcab? I had no idea the discussion have migrated to another page. I had stated my opinion earlier; use of alternative official names in other languages is common across wikipedia, if the main contributors of this article wish to keep them, so be it. Why introduce and impose such a trivial "rule"? That would violate Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. --Vsion 06:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:OWN is more important than WP:IAR, no-one owns the article. The "main contributors" don't get to decide if they stay or go, consensus does, and since the "main contributors" did not voice their opinion when asked for it, consensus amongst those who did voice an opinion has already decided the outcome. As for whether you were informed, you were not listed as a party to the MedCab case, please take that up with the user who filed it. – Chacor 09:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Again, I expressed my opinion against removing the alternative names before the Medcab was filed, as did several other users. There is obviously no consensus on this, contrary to what you suggest. --Vsion 14:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The consensus was reached at the MedCab case. The fact that you - and others - chose not to participate in it (I also left a message about it on this talk page, so if you had wanted to join you would have). That is not the fault of the MedCab, it's your own. – Chacor 14:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Still, there is no consensus, don't you think? ;) --Vsion 14:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

In otherwords, Chacor is suggesting it is perfectly alright for one faction to initiate a MedCab, list a majority of members who are sympathetic to their opinions as "involved parties", hope the "rivals" members fail to notice the existance of the MedCab, then happily declare its results binding without a chance for the other party to make a whimper of protest. If this is the true intent of the MedCab process, then I must say it plays a really bad job to build concensus in a "relaxed, informal" manner. I am pretty sure my sense of "hostility" (maybe too strong a word, but you get my point) just rose one more notch as a result of this little "mediation" exercise of sorts.--Huaiwei 17:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Do NOT put words in my mouth. I won't hesitate to take you to task. Furthermore, the same message was posted right here on this very talk page notifying everyone about the case. – Chacor 17:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

By insisting a "concensus" has been reached when there are obvious flaws in the Medcab process as I pointed out above, and basically refusing to acknowledge opposition to that process, you are indeed seemingly vindicating the flaws I mention above. I said you were suggesting something; I didnt claim you said anything. By the above, I suppose I should take it as a personal threat against me?--Huaiwei 17:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Refusing to participate in a medium of dispute resolution, then complaining about the results of said mediation, is a flaw in itself. Don't expect to boycott something and then start going off about its results. If you want a peaceful resolution, then participate in the means of resolution provided, not insist on flaws, keep silent, and then bitch about the aftereffects. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 23:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I seriously don't care which way the resolution goes, as long as it ends peacefully. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 23:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

</indent> First off, allow me to apologize for Vsion not receiving a notice. However, it was posted here the entire time. I had tried listed every person who had commented above, regardless of their opinion on the matter, but apparently I missed Vsion. If you look at the parties involved in the case, you'll find that I think he's the only person not listed thats said anything here.

It was a true attempt to try and reach an agreement between all parties with a neutral third-party mediator (two in this case). But since mediation is by nature voluntary, all it takes to throw a wrench into the gears is for involved parties to not participate. Abstaining from discussion in such a situation could indicate that a party no longer has a strong opinion on the matter, would you not agree? In order words, if you didn't voice your opinion in the case, how were we to know you still had one either way? thadius856_{talk|airports|neutrality} 19:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh. please don't apologize, it's not your fault, next time I will be verbose to get myself notice (just kidding). As a compromise, I would suggest remove the pinyin, and keep the four official names. I would rather remove the alternative names in the infobox; the reasons are:

1. the lead sentence also lists the languages but the infobox currently does not.
2. Listing the alternative names in the lead sentence is still the most common practice across wikipedia.
3. The text in the lead sentence is also more portable and easiler to parse automatically, without the table format markup.

The article Switzerland also has four alternative names, since the objections are against having four or more alternative names, these objections should apply to Switzerland as well. I strongly urge, as a matter of good faith, to bring Switzerland into the discussion as well, so as to avoid inherent systemic bias against Asian Langauges. --Vsion 23:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

A modest proposal

Since Singapore has four official languages, why not use those? (Beautful country, by the way. I fell in love with it and hope to visit again). Durova^Charge! 23:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that is the locus of the current (or now happily forgotten?) dispute. Some believe that the inclusion of the names in the four languages cluttered the lead paragraph. I myself hold no opinion, and I have nothing against this particular proposal, but urge a consensual and peaceful resolution. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 04:07, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The four languages are and will stay in the article: the question is whether they should be in the infobox or the lead. Jpatokal 10:00, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Correct. I ended up getting pretty burned out when I took it to RfA and it was majorly shadowed by the Husnock case. I somewhat gave up trying at that point, and it seems the discussion has gone pretty much dead since. If anybody wanted to file a RfC and post it at the Village pump, that'd most likely get the ball rolling again constructively. thadius856_{talk|airports|neutrality} 22:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I am horrified to look at your LEAD again. What an unreadable mess. I thought it had all been reasonably resolved by the RfC, and now I come and see THIS dog's breakfast. Please do something about it. You have a beautiful infobox. Use the infobox. It is not like the names in other languages and scripts will not exist. They will be right there, beautifully displayed. And this is ENGLISH Wikipedia. We do not need to turn every article into an unreadable mess. We are here to learn something. Not to have to fight through the text to extract some information. Please do something about this!!!--Filll 21:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

What looks like an unreadable mess to you may look beautiful to others. I fail to see any new, valid points raised by your comment pertaining to this issue.--Huaiwei 22:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Is there a reason why we must perennially fight over such a trivial issue, with the same results each time (namely, four languages in the lead and bad feelings spread amongst the editors)? --²¹⁰physicq (c) 22:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I will not attempt to do anything about it. I just will shake my head in amazement at what looks like a very bad choice for an English encyclopedia. --Filll 01:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Tiger flies to Manila, not "Angeles City"

From a comment on the main page: Tiger Airways doesn't fly to Manila, they only fly to Angeles City. Clark and Angeles City is the same, but Diosdado Macapagal International Aiport is located in Angeles City. Therefore, we should state Angeles City as the destination. We should not state Manila or Clark as the destination. Thank you for understanding.

That's ridiculous tosh: lots of airports are located in neighboring cities. Should we list that Finnair flies to Vantaa, JAL/ANA to Chiba and that Air Asia X will be flying to Uttlesford? No, they fly to Helsinki-Vantaa, Tokyo-Narita and London-Stansted respectively. Jpatokal 10:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It was noted that the above comment was most probably inputted by a local Filipino bent on "administrative correctness" across wikipedia when it comes to this, and has made similar amendments across the site. While I do find this a little overdone as well, I do note that some sources also emphasizes this distinction between the two cities, particularly local airlines flying to both airports. We may have to evaluate this one a case by case basis.--Huaiwei 11:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Mainly, airlines fly to the city that is serving not to that exact location (like Narita is stated as Tokyo-Narita despite being very far away from Tokyo). I think this should not be the case as this make things complicated for some readers who don't know that Narita is in Chiba and BKK is in Samut Prakan so the destination will be called "Samut Prakan" that is dumb imo. Its just ridiculous to have the destinations named according to the administrative areas rather than the place is primarily serving. I think they put Clark as Manila-Clark. Forgotten already, will check if I visit again. Terence Ong 11:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Result of Mediation on name in multiple languages

Here is the result of the discussion at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-11-18 Singapore Changi Airport

Case outcome As per User:Hunterd's suggestion:

• "I think option three is fair, as this is the English Wikipedia, not the Chinese, Malay, etc. etc. version of WP. Keep the alternatives in the infobox. Another reason for this is that, as was stated by someone else, the alternate language versions are merely translated versions of the English name, and therefore do not provide any extra information to the non-traveling reader. However, for the reader who is traveling, then the translations are in the infobox. The Duke of Mediation Cabal/Cases 10:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Case closed by The Duke of Mediation Cabal/Cases 10:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Please do not re-add the Airport's name in multiple languages in the Lead paragraph. Blueboar 01:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Kindly read Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal, and tell us if the Cabal can unilaterally impose an "outcome" without inputs from all relevant parties, in particular the primary opponents to this move?--Huaiwei 01:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

You're the only "primary opponent", and your input was requested, repeatedly. You refused to give it and only started whinging (and reverting) after the mediation process was over. Jpatokal 04:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Entirely false.

Your input was requested, true or false? Repeatedly, true or false? You refused to give any input on the mediation page, true or false? You did not object to the mediation process while it was going on, true or false? Jpatokal 12:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

lol. My comment was in response to your first sentence. Duh.--Huaiwei 12:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Then it wasn't entirely false, now was it? "Duh." Jpatokal 03:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

How so? ;)--Huaiwei 14:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I have noticed certain members are consistently being kept out of discussions, in particular User:Vsion. This has been the primary reason why I dispute the conduct of the "mediation" process, while you pretend all is well, and attempt to counter-accuse me of "whinging". Could you explain your failure to allow a fair representation in the mediation process? Could you explain your "involved members" selection criteria?--Huaiwei 11:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

'Tain't mine, thadius856 and Hunterd ran the process. thadius856 already duly apologized to Vsion for not notifying her directly, and she accepted the apology.

But I'll repeat my earlier, genuine, unanswered question: what would it take to make you, Huaiwei, change your mind? What parties are in your opinion "representative" and what forum would be the correct place to address this dispute? Jpatokal 12:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

So we are to assume that an "accepted apology" for a obvious "oversight" means the mediation outcome is acceptable to him as well? If you are clearly aware of this oversight, why do you refuse to acknowledge this, and instead, attempt to single me out as the "primary opponent"?

As for that odd question of yours, if I were to put it back to you, what would make you change your mind? I find your question extremely insulting, in that you are suggesting I am opposing your views for the sake of it. If this is where you are coming from, then you can forget about "dispute resolution".--Huaiwei 12:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

You're still not answering me, but I'll humor you: if the Mediation Cabal exercise had concluded that the majority supports keeping the names in the lede, then I would have shut up and moved on. You obviously have not done the same. So for the third time: What parties are in your opinion "representative" and what forum would be the correct place to address this dispute? Jpatokal 03:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Because I do not need to answer that question, and I have already explained why. But of course, you just wont acknowledge that, because you arent getting the "answer" you are trying to squeeze out of me. I need not utilise mediation vehicles such as the Mediation Cabal just to prove a point. And the fact that you arent even telling us just why this article should be bounded by the "recommendations" of the Mediation Cabal just tells me that a restoration is in order very soon.--Huaiwei 14:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Sure Haiwei, you are free to dispute the mechanisms for dispute resolution here on Wikipedia, and the mechanisms for determining concensus. You are free to go against them, but there are of course consequences for this kind of action. If you go out of your way to create acrimony and dissension on WP in the face of community consensus, the community has many options for dealing with this. For example, you might get banned from editing this article, either temporarily or permanently. You might get banned from WP, either temporarily or permanently. You might get your whole range of IP addresses a nice IP block, either temporarily or permanently. If you create sock puppets to try to circumvent the ban, your sock puppets can be hunted and banned and blocked. So there are many options should you choose to continue down this road. However, you are free to choose them. I would think that an editor interested in consensus and accommodation would rather choose the more productive options, instead of forcing the community's hand. --Filll 14:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

You are completely off-tangent. Could you quote me any of my comments which indicates I am actually disputing the dispute resolution's mechanisms?--Huaiwei 15:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

<reduce indent>Huaiwei, obviously in a fit of pique, you decided to boycott the Mediation. Now you are not happy with the results. And threatening to aggressively act in direct opposition to the results of the Mediation. Direct contravention. So, this behavior would show complete disregard for the community and its mechanisms. Clear enough?--Filll 15:12, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

<reduce indent>From my viewpoint as an outsider, what might change my mind is something like:

• A government entity in Singapore bought WikiMedia and changed the rules of English Wikipedia that it had to feature the official languages of Singapore in all articles on English Wikipedia, and every other Wikipedia in every other language.
• If the laws were changed in the US to require that all articles on the internet that originate in the US have to feature the official native languages and foreign scripts in articles about foreign countries
• If Singapore defeated the USA in a war, and imposed its laws on the USA.
• If the WikiMedia foundation made it a policy to try to discourage the use of WP by creating very impenetrable leads to all WP articles.

I am sure if you are imaginative, you can think of other scenarios under which your suggestion might make sense. However, baring those, I am afraid most people do not seem to agree with you. Is there a Singapore Wiki? If there is, you are free to argue your POV there.--Filll 15:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Ignorance can be embarrassing, there are alternative names all over wikipedia: see Switzerland, Delhi, the Sheremetyevo International Airport in Moscow, and the airports articles listed under List of airports in the People's Republic of China. Are you going to recommend all these countries to declare war against USA? --Vsion 17:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I find this commentary shocking. I suppose you are suggesting that this site is owned by the United States government, that this site is manipulated by American law, and that America occupies Singapore and is imposing its laws there, since we are currently not in any of those scenarios you suggested?--Huaiwei 14:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Shocking? I was asked under what potential scenarios I would support having a completely unreadable lead sentence. I gave you some. I did not claim that this site is owned by the US government, although it is under the jurisdiction of US law. Definitely. All internet sites hosted from the US are subject to US law. Or did you not know that? My my. For example, you know we have a war on terror going on. Do you think that the US government does not use its powers to fight terrorists using US internet sites? I never claimed that the US occupies Singapore. That makes no sense. I do not understand where you are going. I am showing under which scenarios I would agree with you. And as you so correctly point out, we are not under those scenarios. Therefore, I do not agree with you.--Filll 15:09, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Those questions arent directed at you, so I am kinda wondering from where you got that idea. Now of course part of this site is hosted in the US, and is subject to certain jurisdictions (while i suppose you are suggesting Dutch and Korean law somehow dosent apply?). But since you feel it fit to mention it, are you suggesting Wikipolicies are regulated by US law regulations? How does that happen? Merely by the fact that Wikipedia is partly hosted in the US, or because the US government owns this site? Gosh. So by the fact that we have to remove all non-English words in the lead of every article across the English wikipedia, I recon we are now acting fully within the law as far as American legislators are concerned? Im blown over by this revelation!

Meanwhile, what you consider as "unreadable" can be very much readable to someone else.--Huaiwei 15:30, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely that ignorance is embarassing. I think that the leads of any of those articles that is cluttered and also have a nice infobox available, should declutter their leads and make use of the infobox to feature the alternate names, pronunciations, scripts, languages etc all very prominently. So I would change Switzerland, Delhi, and the top 4 or 5 articles I looked at at List of airports in the People's Republic of China. I did not see a problem at Sheremetyevo International Airport but I have to look again. I brought this up in the WP:LEAD and Policy discussions at the Village Pump and it was agreed that this approach was the best for readability while displaying the alternate information very prominent at the top of the article. It strikes me as a reasonable compromise and very informative. Suppose we follow the logic to its illogical conclusion: For this article we could have:

• 2 different names
• each in 4 different languages
• each having a pronunciation guide
• each having an audio link
• each in a different script
• the 3 nonenglish scripts being transliterated (possibly in more than one way)
• abbreviations in each language
• IATA and ICAO codes
• dates

All shoved into the first sentence, in a bit unreadable list of maybe 8+8+8+6+4+4+2+1=41 or more separate bits of information, all strung together in a meaningless mass. On the other hand, we could typset them all, offset, beautifully listed in a nice list, in an infobox; accessible, prominent, attractive and useful to the reader. And leave the text readable in English (or mostly in English). Sure is not a difficult decision to make.--Filll 17:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

If it is all agreed and applied consistently across wikipedia, I don't see any reason why this article should not follow suit. There is no need to spend time arguing this specific case, please provide the link to where this issue have been discussed and the solution "agreed" upon. --Vsion 17:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this should be a policy applied across WP. I think that the discussion on the Village Pump might have been erased but I will keep looking for it. I also think that the word "agree" is not correct; there is no policy agreement across WP at this point. It is more of a case by case basis, which I agree is ridiculous. Here is some very limited discussion at the WP:LEAD talk page:[6] and at WP:MOSBIO: [7]--Filll and here is some from the archived Village pump discussion (there is a lot more but it is hard to get at):[8] --Filll 18:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Destination dispute

Several members [9], [10], [11], [12] have attempted to add a supposed direct flight ny Thai Airways International from Singapore to Jakarta, based on nothing but the airport website's passenger planning feature. A check with Thai's official site shows the said flight number being flown only from Bangkok to Singapore, and no where else. For all of these members to insist on adding that information, I presume they have grounds to show the airport website is mroe accurate than the airline website? Could any of these members book a ticket on that flight as proof?

I also find it appaling that User:Chacor [13] finds it reasonable behavior to revert an edit in an obviously tense situation, yet demand others to discuss before they can do the same at the same instance.--Huaiwei 15:15, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Independent sources such as OAG.com and Amadeus.net both show that there exists Thai Airways flight 401 that runs between Singapore and Jakarta. Even the Thai Airways website shows this; if one clicks on the Flight Info tab on the homepage, and do all possible permutations of Bangkok-Singapore, Bangkok-Jakarta, and Singapore-Jakarta and input 401 as the flight number, a flight information will appear. Cheers. /ɪlεktʃɹɪk bluː/ 16:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

You are probably right. I just tried searching for the flight using the "Flight info" tab for TG401, and the Singapore-Jakarta flight appears. I am left wondering why it fails to appear when I attempt to book a flight on that sector, thou?--Huaiwei 16:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I just confirmed the existance of the route in [14]. My deep apologies to all for my oversight and over-zealousness.--Huaiwei 17:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)