Talk:Abortion

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Lead: 2006, 2007-10, 2011 Lead image To-do items (active)
Notable precedents in discussion
"Unborn"/"human" vs. "embryo"/"fetus" "Fetus" vs. "foetus" Pictures, 2, 3, 4, 5, Use of "Death"

Lead sentence opposition

The lead section options section has indicated multiple options. I've tried to list them here in order of most supported, to least. Here we should discuss / list opposing reasons for each option in an attempt to remove some of the options. The emphasis, in my opinion, is on the functionality of the definition and adherence to Wikipedia policy and our goals.

At the last second, I've added "Oppose reasons", the intent is to put point form problems with the lead option; the points can be tweaked and expanded as necessary (hence not signed) please re-sign if modified. But a consensus is needed to strike out a reason, with a followup signed rationale for removal. (see below for my example attempt, anyone can unstrike and say why) An RFC can be listed for this. Hopefully by September we can at least agree on what we don't prefer. Oh and please comment on possible tweaks to remove your opposition to an option. - RoyBoy 04:56, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Termination before viable

“ Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy before it is viable. ”

Oppose reasons

• While complete for medical text(s), it is too narrow a definition for a generalist encyclopedia. Wikipedia should include exceptions. Or simply: Wikipedia is not a dictionary / medical text.RoyBoy 03:44, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
• Per WP:Lead, "In general, specialized terminology and symbols should be avoided...." Many medical and non-medical sources use a broader definition, and it's not NPOV to favor the narrower specialist terminology, or use it to limit the scope of the article.Anythingyouwant (talk) 09:46, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
• I am not going to mince my words here - this is weak factually, it would be intellectually dishonest [we know that third trimester abortions do take place and can be legally performed up to full term in some jurisdictions and that they are called abortions and are abortions regardless of the stage of development of the fetus, or it's ability to survive outside the womb]. Lacking in content [no mention of baby/embryo/fetus or mother/female], and bad semantically and gramatically. Would set a very poor example for an encyclopedic definition.DMSBel (talk) 23:28, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments

Termination with medical clarification

“ Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, involving destruction of a fetus or embryo, although medically the term "abortion" does not usually apply if the fetus has become viable. ”

Oppose reasons

• "usually" is a weasel word we should avoid. Used in Britannica; and there are unknowns we cannot rigidly define. - RoyBoy 03:44, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
• This would include induced labor and birth.Anythingyouwant (talk) 09:51, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments

• FYI, I changed "loss" to "termination" and "destruction" to "removal or expulsion". - RoyBoy 03:44, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
• Removing "destruction" now makes the definition so broad that it could cover live birth. After "embryo" I would add "and its demise". The word "demise" is not merely a synonym for "death". Sometimes it means death, but it can also simply mean termination.Anythingyouwant (talk) 10:25, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
  • I came back to this definition with those very concerns. Demise cannot be used because it requires personhood (while death/destruction doesn't). I have put destruction back, and switched "a" to "the". Thanks for the feedback. Well, looking here demise does seem appropriate, but here it seems not appropriate. - RoyBoy 17:28, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
    • Your second link doesn't seem convincing, because if you click on "more" you'll see that Google Dictionary has met its, uh, demise. Google Dictionary is not a reliable source. I can support "destruction", though.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:04, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Ironically based on Wikipedia, demise being "used as a stilted term for a person's death" seems to exclude it from consideration. It was an excellent attempt at creative compromise. - RoyBoy 15:49, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Version superseded
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Current version “ Abortion is technically defined as the termination of pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo before fetal viability; however, the term may be defined more broadly to include any termination of pregnancy before birth. ” Oppose reasons Repetitive "defined" and "termination of pregnancy"RoyBoy 03:44, 12 August 2011 (UTC) The goal of a lead is to broadly yet accurately define a topic, not relegate it to a secondary option.RoyBoy 03:44, 12 August 2011 (UTC) Additionally, a reader might easily think that inducing a premature labor qualifies as terminating pregnancy before birth, so it would be clearer to say "other than birth" instead of "before birth".Anythingyouwant (talk) 09:59, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Previous death consensus

“ Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion of a fetus or embryo from the uterus, resulting in or caused by its death. ”

Oppose reasons

• Death has a dual meaning, broadly it fits; but in common usage it implies an individual / person has died.RoyBoy 03:50, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
• In a small minority of medical definitions.RoyBoy 03:50, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
• This is not NPOV unless the "viable" definition is also provided somewhere in the article.Anythingyouwant (talk) 10:15, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
• The word "demise" would be better, it's a broader word than "death", not merely synonymous.Anythingyouwant (talk) 10:15, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments

• While I get it, death is correctly defined once at Wikipedia. It seems easier to understand than viable, so we preferred it in 2006. - RoyBoy 03:50, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Death is blunt, simple and straightforward, but it's not used when tonsils are removed. Tonsils are not really a distinct organism, whereas a fetus/embryo is regarded as a distinct organism, or at least a parasitic distinct organism. The word "death" has strong connotations, perhaps suggesting brain death, which is an organ that may not yet have formed in the embryo. The word "demise" is much better; it sometimes means death but can also simply mean termination.Anythingyouwant (talk) 10:15, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

• This is straightforward and clear as a formal definition, there is nothing counterfactual here in regard to what an abortion basically is. Some may regard a fetus/embryo as a parasitic organism, it is incorrect though as parasites are from a species different to the host species. In origin and manner the dependent intrauterine relationship of baby on its mother is not the same as parasite on a host. I don't see a NPOV issue or a need to give more than one definition as viability will be mentioned in the article, but is non-essential to a formal definition. DMSBel (talk) 01:57, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• I don't regard it as parasatic. My point was merely that some people do regard it that way, and as far as I know there's no dispute about whether parasites end in death. Of course they do.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:58, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• We had this discussion already a million times. Consensus by posting until other editors give up and go away is not strictly forbidden, but there is a time to just leave things as they are and walk away. NW (Talk) 03:50, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• Talk page discussion is rarely discouraged regarding how we can get a consensus that allows removal of a disputed tag. Only three or so editors have even commented about whether "termination before birth" might be misunderstood to include premature labor induction, for example. No one likes endless discussions, but that's often what happens when high-profile articles are substantially changed without any consensus whatsoever for the changes (as happened here). I can support changes and compromises here, but the thing is not settled yet.Anythingyouwant (talk) 09:58, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• Agree with Anythingyouwant. The removal of death was non-consensual, supported with bogus (anti-scientific) arguments and anyone who dissented was/is accused of being a right-wing religious nut-case. We should revert back to the 2006 death consensus.-- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 11:25, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• It's worse than that. The original section for comments was repeatedly changed--statements modified after people had voted for them--and it continues to happen here. There has been a long discussion to get to the current stable version and any discussion not starting with that is just another attempt to get the much-loved 2006 version back in. If a discussion of this form is to work it needs to include statements that are not modified during the discussion of them, just for starters. Waiting until a stable version was reached then trying to get it thrown out and the old, old version restored is just another delaying tactic in hopes of wearing out the editors on the other side. It isn't an honest attempt to reach consensus. JJL (talk) 15:26, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• A 48 hour straw poll qualifies as a honest attempt? If changes to unsigned proposals are noted, transparency remains, this is the Wiki-process. "stable version" is that another joke? Motive guessing again, I waited for the "Lead section options" to slow then proceeded to construct an actual consensus. The current lead is messy and (I think) undermines the whole point of a lead (to define something broadly once), if you want to keep it, fine. I'd like to verify this is what the community actually wants / expect; they'll likely want the "termination before viable" version... well I certainly hope not. - RoyBoy 04:53, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

• But it wasn't structured very well, like the current lead. If the current version holds its own re WP:Lead, then there is no change required. Besides, if things were "left as they are", we would be forced to revisit every year. That possibility is preposterous to me, but if you're willing to sign up then awesome fantastic! BTW, NW do you find "demise" okay, or equally poor / misleading as "death"? - RoyBoy 04:59, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

• Misleading is a bit strong; perhaps "imprecise" describes my feelings towards it a bit better. In any case, can we postpone this discussion until after the Arbitration case concludes? I plan to request some sort of binding mediation structure imposed by the Arbitration Committee and administered by an uninvolved editor/admin, which I think might help us. NW (Talk) 14:58, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks for the clarification. No worries, this section has long intentions; and it can float... opening an RfC to get more voices in this section could help. However, there is no rush. - RoyBoy 01:52, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Current version Sept

“ Abortion refers to the termination of pregnancy at any stage that does not result in birth; medically, abortion is typically defined as the termination of pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo before fetal viability. ”

Oppose reasons

• Repetitive: "termination of pregnancy". - RoyBoy 23:48, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
• Medical definition is weaselly. - RoyBoy 00:15, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Comments

• It's getting better. Perhaps tweak first "termination" to "ending" (hmmm... ending might not be good enough), and "end with" to "result in"? - RoyBoy 04:09, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

• Glad to see we are near to same page. I'm not sure that either termination or ending works there (the former because it's repetitive, the latter just seems off), but the other thought sounds good. NW (Talk) 13:13, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

• Once technically became 2nd fiddle, lead wasn't awful... perhaps "loss" for the first termination? But I come back to this: "A definition should not be negative where it can be positive." I brought it up here and Anythingyouwant replied many definitions use not viable / nonviable. Though I'm still thinking it's poor form simply for political correctness. - RoyBoy 23:48, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
• Hmmm, does "loss" run the risk of conflating the definition with stillbirth? A stillbirth does not terminate/end the pregnancy, but its technically lost? - RoyBoy 00:14, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

• Updated lead with "result in" tweak, also removed "live" as birth is always alive. Now I want to replace ", though it is often technically defined" with "; medically abortion is defined" - RoyBoy 23:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Any comments? - RoyBoy 16:40, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the "often" or "generally" could be inserted before medically, and I think "live birth" was used in previous revisions to differentiate birth from stillbirth. I have no strong opinions on either though. NW (Talk) 16:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

After some minor edits after, "often" got changed to "typically"... I tried often simply to avoid another "lly" word. I concur with JJL it's weaselly, so I'll add that as an objection. - RoyBoy 00:15, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

If the medical defn. with all its sourcing, is only "typically" as given, what possible basis is there for the first half of this highly synthesized defn.? Wouldn't it require even stronger caveats? JJL (talk) 00:34, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough JJL. I'm with you both. NW (Talk) 01:34, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The first definition is meant to be encyclopedic, broad but accurate, so caveats and even refs aren't necessary. That's why it is first, primary, and I'd maintain; only definition required. I admit, over the arc of the debate I've come to acknowledge the medical def is more relevant than I initially weighted. - RoyBoy 03:35, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The sources waffle, so we should waffle. Both the medical and general language dictionaries go back and forth regarding the viability limitation, with the medical sources leaning a bit more toward that limitation. Using words like "generally" and "usually" is virtually mandated by WP:NPOV, so we don't end up endorsing one medical definition over another, or one general-language definition over another. BTW, the sources that use the viability limitation never seem to tell us what we're supposed to call a termination of pregnancy after viability, which is a mystery I guess.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:54, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

General comments

I have reinserted the above thread to keep it visible while the pending arbitration runs its course. - RoyBoy 23:01, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Why this one particular section of yours? There are lots of discussions of the topic throughout the archives and we'll no doubt need to revisit the whole issue anyway. There were so many midway changes to this one that I don't see any reason to treat it specially. JJL (talk) 16:54, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

The reason I didn't pursue an RfC for this was active arbitration, the goal is to eliminate oppose reasons... if not addressed lead maintenance remains difficult and revisiting might be every few months, instead of years. I don't see how "midway changes" impacts its utility. Treat it for what it is, unresolved. The current lead is written by committee and doesn't mind redundancy and defining it "technically" first. I doubt I'm alone in taking issue with this. - RoyBoy 02:55, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

That's not true of the current lead. It's already changed (and not in the way I would have preferred). JJL (talk) 03:57, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

How would you prefer the lede JJL? DMSBel (talk) 01:06, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

I think I've addressed this in great detail and endless repetition, but once again: The one-line viability-based defn. used by the medical community. JJL (talk) 04:05, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Nailed me on that one! Abortion takes a while to load, sometimes I skip. Trying to massage it in my head to streamline... hmmmm, not succeeding. - RoyBoy 03:52, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Needs a picture

This article needs to be illustrated with a picture, or several pictures, of babies murdered through abortion - so that readers can better understand the anti-abortion point of view. Note that I am not using wikipedia as a soapbox by making this comment, and I shall treat any removal of this post as censorship. Conservative Philosopher (talk) 05:11, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Awesome. MastCell ^Talk 05:19, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Very funny.Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:27, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I demand that this post be removed IMMEDIATELY. Gandydancer (talk) 15:00, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

It is a bit amazing that with all the graphic procedures featured on Wikipedia the Abortion article is more or less blank on the matter. I suppose showing pictures of this particular procedure qualifies as propaganda. PeRshGo (talk) 16:38, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

It's not blank at all. The article does have an image of an abortion being performed. It's a diagram rather than a photograph, which seems to leave some people unsatisfied. MastCell ^Talk 17:33, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

(I'm not serious about removing the post - I guess it's hard to kid around with this article) Gandydancer (talk) 19:09, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

A winky would have helped. - RoyBoy 00:52, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I am proudly pro-life and I believe that abortion is murder and always wrong. I want a picture of a baby murdered through abortion here not to push my point of view, but because the pro-life side often uses such pictures, and it would help to show one here to explain their perspective. Why is hard-core porn acceptable on Wikipedia but not a picture of a murdered baby in this article? Conservative Philosopher (talk) 00:02, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Had to add the image request tag, since an image was requested. My own view is that we need to be careful here and not put in images just for shock value remembering this is an encyclopedia and the subject is a highly sensitive one. DMSBel (talk) 02:09, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Please discuss here first62.254.133.139 (talk) 02:43, 9 September 2011 (UTC)DMSBel (talk) 02:44, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

What policy-based argument for inclusion hasn't already been gone over ad nauseum in the archives of this talkpage? LeadSongDog come howl! 19:35, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

There is a video in commons, I think it should be discussed first before adding though as it is not pleasant to watch.--Traveler100 (talk) 20:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

The video is from the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform, a pro-life pressure group which believes that "abortion represents an evil so inexpressible that words fail us when attempting to describe its horror." I'm not sure that's the sort of source envisioned in WP:RS, although I'm sure opinions will differ on the subject. MastCell ^Talk 20:30, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Sure it (abortion) is a clear cut evil, its the taking of innocent human life.DMSBel (talk) 20:49, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

While offtopic, I feel the need to point out "innocence" appears meaningless. A felled tree is an innocent life. A person born with severe mental retardation and dies at the age of 28.25 is "innocent". Innocence is relational to lack of consciousness or agency. While it has religious meaning, practically I don't see it having meaning. Child mortality takes the innocent, to many religious folk this is "in the hands of god". - RoyBoy 03:03, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

It appears meaningless? Sorry I am not at all clear as to what you are saying. No one refers to trees as either innocent or guilty.DMSBel (talk) 18:31, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Some see trees as innocent... but set that aside. To clarify, innocence is a state of lacking knowledge or agency. A lack of agency can be demonstrated by a tree (not a perfect example). A fetus can bring optimism with its potential and fresh outlook, it is offset with the larger reality the fetus is blank. There is no moral imperative from innocence, same for a tree. To bring on-topic: this is why Wikipedia avoids these descriptions. (Not accusing, just trying to tie into article/talk.) Religious texts speak to protection of innocence, but this is laid waste by human / deity destruction and the harsh reality of nature, where innocence is lost every moment. While I appreciate we wish to rise above this, it does not make absence of guilt an asset. - RoyBoy 06:16, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Having watched some of it (not all), it's very unpleasant to watch, which I knew it would be. I don't agree with it going in the article, for a reason that is difficult to explain, and may be flawed, but is not to do with censorship - I don't disagree with CBR for making it available. Thats were I stand on the matter, the CBR are quite correct though abortion is horrible.DMSBel (talk) 01:24, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Where is the video? 03:47, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Legitimate definition

This was deleted:

*"Induced termination of a pregnancy with destruction of the fetus or embryo; therapeutic abortion." {{cite book|title=The American Heritage Medical Dictionary|publisher=Houghton Mifflin|year=2008|pages=2,395|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=kT7ykAhh3fsC&pg=PA2&dq=%22termination+of+a+pregnancy+with+destruction+%22&hl=en&ei=gneUTq21BY-htwf0uLWDBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22termination%20of%20a%20pregnancy%20with%20destruction%20%22&f=false}}

Is the problem that it contradicts our lead, as several of the other sources in the Note do?Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:16, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I didn't take a look at the URL; I thought from the last two words quoted that you had come up with the definition for "therapeutic abortion", not "abortion". Please feel free to readd it, along with the second definition that you left out for some unstated reason. NW (Talk) 20:44, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

(Undent)I don't know why this should be the only definition in the "Note" that should include both the primary and secondary listed meanings, but I'd be willing to add the second meaning if you like. However, I am reluctant to revert your mistaken edit for the reasons I'll explain.

This source still contradicts our lead, as do several of the other sources given in the Note, but you've indicated no willingness to insert a qualifier in the lead (like "typically" or "usually" or "often"), no matter how many contrary sources are added to the Note. To say that medical sources never use the word "abortion" with respect to abortions after viability is, well, inaccurate to say the least. Repeatedly removing the qualifier "often" or "typically" is wrong, misleading, contrary to NPOV, and disruptive. If I were to reinsert such a qualifier, doubtless I would be accused (and sanctioned) for disruption, when in fact there was never any consensus for how to change the lead sentence that existed for five years, much less to change it in this misleading way that wrongly indicates a uniform medical denial that there is such a thing as abortion after viability.

It seems that there's one set of rules at this article applicable to one set of editors, and another set of rules applicable to another set of editors, and that's about as civilly as I can describe it. An editor (MastCell) correctly said at this talk page on July 11 that there is an "obvious lack of consensus" regarding changes to the lead sentence.[1] Yet WP:Consensus plainly says that "More than a simple majority is generally required for major changes". Editors have changed the five-year version without even a simple majority agreeing how to change it, and continue to change it without consensus. This type of aggressive behavior has made this article and talk page a battleground, and driven away many editors who do not want the aggravation. Whether ArbCom ratifies this type of activity or not, I don't ratify it, FWIW.Anythingyouwant (talk) 11:36, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Does the first half of the lede sentence stand completely uncontradicted by any sources? JJL (talk) 16:52, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The sentence should be reverted to the last consensus version, and anyone who changes it repeatedly without any hint of consensus should be blocked. The first half of the sentence would be wrong without qualifiers, and the second half of the sentence is that qualifier. The problem is that it's too categorical. If we cannot go back to the last consensus version, then I'd modify the sentence as follows: "Abortion refers to the termination of pregnancy at any stage that does not result in birth; medically, abortion is usually defined as the termination of pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo before fetal viability." In the mean time, I've decided to go ahead in a few minutes and insert some medical dictionary sources.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:47, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

There was strong consensus this year against the version from way back when. The Bush years are over. JJL (talk) 00:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

The five-year-long lead sentence is something that I supported changing, and it should be changed. But not without consensus how to change it. I'm not aware that Bush was editing Wikipedia, which seems kind of beside the point. Feel free to identify any particular date on which there was any consensus about how to change the five-year version of the lead sentence.Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:14, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

You supported it being changed, and it has been changed. We can certainly continue discussing what the lede should be, but I can't imagine why anyone would think it helpful to keep complaining about how long the last one was successfully defended by its ardent supporters here. WP:OWN is not an argument. JJL (talk) 18:41, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Done. Now 6 of the 8 listed "other medical dictionaries" allow for abortion after viability, unlike our lead.Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:27, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

How strong do you gauge the consensus for your actions to be? JJL (talk) 00:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Please answer me this: Are there are dictionaries that you looked up that you did not add? If so, why not? Also, is there any particular reason you are doing a google scholar search for "termination of pregnancy destruction" instead of doing a more systematic listing of, say, all Credo Reference medical dictionaries? NW (Talk) 02:12, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I didn't do a search in Google scholar or anywhere else for "termination of pregnancy destruction" or anything like that. I don't know why you think I did. WP:NPOV instructs us to proportionately cover what significant reliable sources say. My purpose in adding further medical dictionary definitions was to point out that a significant minority of them do not deny there's such a thing as abortion after viability; I was not attempting to confirm that a majority do deny that, which has already been established here. So the sources I picked out were picked out for this reason.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:09, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

The sources don't deny anything: They state a defn. Saying that they are deniers of your truth because they don't mention what's important to you isn't helpful. Does the defn. of red deny blue? JJL (talk) 18:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Er... the URL you added here was clearly obtained by searching for the phrase "termination of a pregnancy with destruction". And why set up a situation where "6 of 8 listed sources" (i.e., a majority) support your wording, when you know that it's a minority view? How is that "proportionate"? MastCell ^Talk 03:58, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

The phrase "termination of a pregnancy with destruction" is an exact quote from the source, and it should be extremely obvious that I already knew what the source said. I was not using that to search for sources, but rather to go back to that particular source to get more info about it. Regarding setting up a set of sources that support my point of view or my proposed wording, that assertion is false. I simply want this Wikipedia article to recognize the minority view in the medical community. Since our Note already had several sources reflecting the minority view, and since our lead continued to ignore and deny that minority view, I added more refs to the Note reflecting the minority view. I was not seeking a lead that parrots the minority view, only a lead that does not flatly deny the minority view.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:26, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Can we agree that the length of the Note is now unreasonable? At this point its very bulk seems an attempt to undercut the defn. it presumably is meant to (on balance) support. JJL (talk) 18:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

The Note could be shortened after we reach consensus about the lead sentence.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question. NW (Talk) 04:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I did answer your question: "The sources I picked out were picked out for this reason". BTW, NuclearWarfare, why did you include tons of dictionaries in your Note, including a dictionary of "cultural literacy" and a dictionary of philosophy, but not a single legal dictionary? Any objection if I include one? Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

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Is there some reason why you chose the 1979 edition of Black's Law Dictionary to cite here? It looks like the most recent edition of Black's was published in 2009 - why not use the definition from the current edition, rather than one from 30+ years ago? Are they different (I don't have immediate access)? MastCell ^Talk 16:57, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Obviously, I had access to the 1979 edition and not the 2009 edition (I own the former and not the latter). An editor has updated the info to 2009, which of course is fine.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:53, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

@Anythingyou want: If I recall correctly, for dictionaries I first included all major medical dictionaries from the 2003 McGraw-Hill (?) list and then went through Credo Reference's dictionaries in sequential order to ensure that I obtained as unbiased a sample as possible. we aren't looking for a systematic listing (such a thing would be longer than the actual article), and listing what individual editors deem to be important is very subjective. NW (Talk) 17:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't know much about Credo. It must be a poor resource if it doesn't include any law dictionaries. Several of the medical dictionaries that you listed defined abortion without regard to viability, so it's perplexing why you insisted that abortion occurs before viability according to the medical definition, without allowing any qualifier like "usually".Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:01, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Credo includes several law dictionaries; none of them came up in when I typed in "abortion" into the dictionaries selection and went straight down the list. And I'm not sure why you're insinuating that; I really don't care too much (see above to discussion with Roy, myself, JJL). NW (Talk) 18:06, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Like I said, it must be a poor resource if it didn't give any legal definition. I don't know exactly where you want me to look for the discussion you had with Roy and JJL (my little iPhone screen isn't good for finding stuff like that), but I do know that you've cared enough to revert other editors who sought a less categorical and one-sided statement of what the medical definition is. Anyway, we'll hopefully get this resolved before Wikipedia becomes obsolete. And then maybe MastCell will allow discussion of the fetus image.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:18, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Why is it important that the defn. of a medical matter be sourced (in part) to a legal dictionary? Of course there are legal issues associated with abortion--there are legal issues associated with any medical procedure. That's why you sign so many papers prior to surgery. I don't understand the insistence on using a legal dictionary here. Is that done to define other medical issues on WP? JJL (talk) 18:41, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Few medical issues have entries in law dictionaries. This one does, which is notable.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:54, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

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I think it's reasonable to include legal dictionaries, assuming we're committed to the dictionary-listing approach. My main concern is that the law varies substantially by jurisdiction, and so by focusing on U.S. legal dictionaries we're locking ourselves into some serious U.S.-centrism.

I'm not familiar enough to judge the most prominent or reputable legal dictionaries, although it seems Black's is certainly among them. The resources for legal counsel at my institution rather surprisingly don't include Black's, but they do include:

• Ballantine's Law Dictionary: 1. The explusion of the fetus at a period of utero-gestation so early that it has not acquired the power of sustaining an independent life. 2. The crime of "abortion" is the wilful bringing about of an abortion without justification or excuse. 3. Although there may be a technical distinction recognized in medicine between abortion and miscarriage, the words are usually synonymous in law.
• Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage 2001: The word abortion, strictly speaking, means no more than "the expulsion of a non-viable fetus" (W3).

Interesting. I guess if we're committed to legal dictionaries, the question is how wide of a net we wish to cast. Again, I don't pretend to have personal knowledge of the most prominent legal dictionaries - these are dictionaries chosen as relevant by the legal counsel of my institution. MastCell ^Talk 19:06, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Black's is the leading legal dictionary, but there are others. The Nolo Dictionary says: "The termination of a pregnancy by the removal, by surgical or other means, of an embryo or fetus from a woman's uterus." I don't intend to insert this in the Note, because it seems like Black's is enough for now. I'm not trying to establish that one definition is the definition whereas all others are illegitimate imposters. Which is what our lead presently says.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:19, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe the lede says such a thing. It's an introduction to the article. We either have to have a defn. in the lede, or a statement that this case is so unique that no defn. can be given. I'm sure every defn. on WP would be argued by someone. I don't believe those reading WP are interpreting these lede sentences as mathematical defns. that precisely characterize the meaning of the term in accordance with everyone's judgment in all circumstances. You're setting the bar for this article unreasonably high. Think about what happens at articles like Philosophy and Mathematics. It's impossible to get all parties to agree that any defn. covers all conceivable aspects of the situation. We're not designing a dictionary entry. Does this lede help a reader decide if this is the right article, and what the basic idea is? JJL (talk) 20:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

This word has two specific meanings in reliable sources: one has a viability limitation and one doesn't. Mentioning both in the lead is not rocket science. Instead, you want to use only one---the one with the viability limitation. When anyone disagrees with limiting the scope of this article in that fashion, you accuse us of trying to sneak the word "death" in the backdoor, or trying to bring back the Bush presidency, or some other bad faith motivation. Please stop trying to limit the scope of this Wikipedia article by contradicting the Oxford English Dictionary, Black's Law Dictionary, and a large minority of medical dictionaries. Read the first paragraph of WP:NPOV; we're not supposed to rule out one POV in favor of another, but should describe both.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:08, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

You're intentionally conflating the issue of putting all significant POVs in the article, which no one has ever opposed, with the issue of creating a single sentence that includes all possible defns. By your logic the lede sentence of Moon landing would have to include the material in Moon_landings#Hoax_accusations. As has been said here many times: It's a medical matter with a medical defn. Feel free to expand on that in the article body. Oh, and when I referred to the previous presidential administration I was really referring to your urge to cling to things as they were 5 years ago--you had cited the five-year time frame ad nauseam at that point. JJL (talk) 23:12, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Given the number of sources that use viability; I do not see how we can take silence on viability as meaning the source excludes the limitation and thus there are two specific definitions. Sounds more like one specific definition and one not so specific definition.

Also, Black's is not silent on viability...

The word 'abortion,' in the dictionary sense, means no more than the expulsion of a fetus before it is capable of living. In this sense it is a synonym of 'miscarriage.' With respect to human beings, however, it has long been used to refer to an intentionally induced miscarriage as distinguished from one resulting naturally or by accident.

— Black's Law Dictionary (9th ed.). Thomson West. 2009. ISBN 9780314199492. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

- ArtifexMayhem (talk) 00:33, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I looked up that quote online, and it appears to be from someone named Rollin M. Perkins, who is one of various people of various points of view quoted in Black's. So, it's not quite correct to attribute that quote to Black's. On the contrary, under it's definition of abortion, Black's gives "late term abortion" as an example. Anyway, putting aside Black's, it seems crystal clear from the Oxford English Dictionary that the word "abortion" (like thousands of other words) has more than one meaning, and I don't see why we would want to tell the OED that they're wrong. It's not at all unusual for a word to have more than one meaning.Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:42, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Lead sentence

I disagree with this edit from yesterday. It inserts a viability-based definition of "abortion" into the lead, contrary to numerous cited sources that allow that abortion is definitionally possible after viability. The lead sentence should take neither position, but rather needs to simply describe what the sources say. The new lead sentence is therefore contrary to just about every Wikipedia policy, mainly WP:NPOV. It also violates WP:Consensus, but that's nothing new around here.Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:57, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the Note, I doubt that we can simply describe what those sources say. However, this is the best-supported version we've had this year--that's as close to consensus as we can likely hope to get currently. JJL (talk) 18:41, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Have you read the first paragraph of WP:NPOV? If not, please do. It's not appropriate for us to pick out one POV and exclude all the others, even if the one you pick out is arguably dominant. This is a matter of following Wikipedia policy, not (as you said above) affirming the end of the Bush years. As for your version being the best-supported version, it isn't, and even if it were that's not the same thing as consensus, especially given the huge number of versions that have been proposed.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:50, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

The first paragraph of WP:NPOV does not state that "all significant views" must be represented in a single sentence, which seem to be what you want. JJL (talk) 20:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

The source from the 9 May 2011 "consensus" version:

Definition: In non-medical circles, the term ‘abortion’ is usually used to refer to the termination of an early pregnancy by artificial means whereas ‘miscarriage’ is used for those pregnancy losses occurring because of natural events. The medical term for both of these is an ‘abortion’, the definition of which is the termination of a pregnancy before 28 weeks (note that there is no mention of the cause); ‘miscarriage’ has no medical definition.

— Dutt, Trevor; Matthews, Margaret P.; Scott, Walter (ed.) (1999). "Chapter 13: Abortion". Gynaecology for Lawyers. Medico-legal practitioner series. London: Cavendish Publishing. p. 173. ISBN 1 85941 215 7. {{cite book}}: |first3= has generic name (help)

- ArtifexMayhem (talk) 19:00, 13 October 2011 (UTC)