Talk:Adnan Oktar

Sources list

Retain this thread indefinitely, do not archive 
--Geoffry Thomas (talk) 08:13, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Rather than further circular argument, it may be useful to focus on which main sources are considered reliable and to what extent they can be used if the source is a strong advocate of one viewpoint. As an example of this in action Talk:Israel Shamir has a list of agreed sources that were used to re-build this controversial subject after it was reduced to a stub. With such a basic list of agreed sources, justifying text for inclusion creates far less heat. Fæ (talk) 09:18, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Some initial suggestions, online in english (particularly for the incidental biographical and contextual information): --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 09:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

(Reformated only, please add opinions on reliability or suggested limitations due to bias next to each source. Fæ (talk) 10:09, 23 November 2010 (UTC))

Sources listing

1-10

1. Hameed, S (2008), "Bracing for Islamic Creationism" (PDF), Science, 322 (5908): 1637–1638, doi:10.1126/science.1163672, ISSN 0036-8075, OCLC 297161310
2. Riexinger, Martin (2008), "Propagating Islamic Creationism on the Internet", Masaryk U. J.L. & Tech., 99

   I am unable to find this listed on WorldCat. The link appears to be to the abstract rather than the article. The journal is Masaryk University journal of law and technology, Faculty of Law, Masaryk University, ISSN 1802-5951, OCLC 299175896 {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help) and I am unclear on how significant or respected this journal is, there are very few citations to the Journal listed in Google Scholar. Fæ (talk) 10:27, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

3. Kjaergaard, P C (2008), Western front: Creationism is on the march in Europe (PDF), New humanist : the bimonthly journal of the Rationalist Press Association. 123, no. 3: The Association, pp. 39–41, ISSN 0306512, OCLC 229319553 {{citation}}: Check |issn= value (help)CS1 maint: location (link)
4. Clash Of Discourses: The Discussions On Evolution And Creationism In Turkey Elif Cavuslu.

   N This appears unpublished and so probably not peer reviewed. I find no matches to this author on WorldCat. Fæ (talk) 10:41, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

5. Evolving Allah: Can one man Succeed in Stirring up the Muslim World Against Darwin? doi:10.3200/SRCH.20.2.24-30, Nathan Schneider

   No abstract and behind paywall. Unable to find this article on JSTOR or WorldCat. Fæ (talk) 11:16, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

6. Akhtar, Shabbir (1990), A faith for all seasons : Islam and the challenge of the modern world, I.R. Dee, ISBN 9780929587639

   Y I find this book cited in Google Scholar 21 times. Fæ (talk) 11:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

7. Taner Edis (1994), "Islamic Creationism In Turkey", Creation/Evolution, 34.1

   Y Appears to be a suitable summary though being 16 years old this might be superseded or factually out of date (see #34 below as an alternate). Fæ (talk) 14:29, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

8. Mohd. Nor bin Ngah (1983), Kitab Jawi: Islamic Thought of the Malay Muslim Scholars Kitab Jawi : Islamic thought of the Malay Muslim scholars, Research notes and discussions paper, no. 33, Institute of Southeast Asian Studies, ISBN 9789971902292 {{citation}}: Check |url= value (help) also see review in Asian Studies Review doi:10.1080/03147538408712353
9. Yudhijit Bhattacharjee (May 23, 2008), "Newsmakers", Science, 320 (5879), American Association for the Advancement of Science: 995

   Y This news item (not an article) is probably covered in easier to access sources. The relevant text is extracted below for those without access:

   Newsmakers - In The Courts

   PROLIFIC. An Istanbul court has sentenced an influential Islamic creationist to 3 years in prison for starting a criminal organization and profiting from it. But the conviction, which Adnan Oktar says he will appeal, seems unlikely to stem the flood of creationist books and DVDs he is publishing. Oktar, who uses the pen name Harun Yahya, became well-known outside Turkey when his Foundation for Scientific Research (BAV) widely distributed its Atlas of Creation, a stunning, 768-page tome (Science, 16 February 2007, p. 925). BAV is not directly linked to the activities that landed Oktar in trouble, and creationism had nothing to do with the charges. Even so, a BAV spokesperson says Oktar is being persecuted “because of his ideas.” Given the political pressures on Turkey’s justice system, that’s “not entirely implausible,” says physicist Taner Edis of Truman State University in Kirksville, Missouri, who has followed the case closely. BAV says “the work will go on” even if its leader goes to prison.

   —Fæ (talk) 11:50, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
10. Abdul Majid. "The Muslim Responses To Evolution". Islamic Research Foundation International, Inc.

    N Unable to find this paper on WorldCat. The author might be the author of the book "The glorious Qur'ān : text, translation and commentary". As the website/organization exists to "promote the understanding of al-Qur'an and Hadith in the light of modern knowledge" this website should be considered unsuitable as an independent source. As the website states "Anyone disagrees with any specific article, he/she may write an article with his/her opposing view points giving pertinent reference", it would fail WP:RS or WP:ELNO as it would count as an open forum rather than a publisher. Fæ (talk) 11:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

11-20

11. Williams, N (2008), "Secular Turkeys evolution battle", Current biology, 18.10, Current Biology Ltd: R398–R399, ISSN 0960-9822, OCLC 346906884

    Y This is a relatively short feature, generally about creationism vs. evolutionism with one relevant statement - "Headed by Adnan Oktar, BAV made headlines internationally in February last year when it mailed copies of a weighty and lavishly illustrated Atlas of Creation to teachers and researchers both in Turkey and worldwide. BAV's activities are integrally connected to the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Turkey, where secularism and science have become more rooted and strongly established than in many other Islamic countries." Fæ (talk) 22:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

12. Pasquale, Frank L. (2008), "The Cultural Particularity of Conflict between "Religion" and "Science" in a Global Context", Secularism & science in the 21st century, Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society and Culture, p. 75, ISBN 0615196349

    Y Brief mention on page 75. Probably too tangential to be a useful reference. Fæ (talk) 22:27, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

13. Turkey's EU Accession Reaches an Impasse, William Chislett, Working Paper 34/2009, 3/7/2009, Elcano Royal Institute Madrid http://www.realinstitutoelcano.org

    Y+ Quality source (probably) but unlikely to be that useful as the only mention of Oktar in this long document is to say "Intelligent design is taught in some Turkish schools, thanks to some extent to Adnan Oktar, a preacher who set up the Bilim Arastirma Vakfi (Scientific Research Foundation), and the schools of Fetullah Gülen. Oktar’s Atlas of Creation has been distributed around the Muslim world and Europe." I would also like to see where exactly this is published in terms of judging authority, it is a working paper and does not appear on WorldCat. Fæ (talk) 11:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

    I suggested this source to provide context. The shift from Evolutionism to Creationism in Turkey was part of a general shift in political ideology accompanying the rejection of Turkey from joining the EU, and its leaning towards becoming a regional power. --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 12:04, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

    Context is useful, however I would suggest a well respected book on the subject would be more authoritative than a (non-neutral) organization's working paper. Fæ (talk) 12:18, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

14. Riexinger, Martin (2009), "Responses of South Asian Muslims to the Theory of Evolution", Die Welt des Islams, 49.2, BRILL: 212–247, ISSN 0043-2539, OCLC 439756576

    Unable to get access, not available via JSTOR. Fæ (talk) 12:03, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

15. Guessoum, Nidhal (2008), "The Qur'an, Science, And The (Related) Contemporary Muslim Discourse", Zygon, 43.2, Blackwell Publishing: 411–431, doi:10.1111/j.1467-9744.2008.00925.x, ISSN 0591-2385, OCLC 438137469

    N Extensive paper, however the only mention of Oktar is once on page 429 in a footnote rather than in the text and even then he is only mentioned in a list of four writers. Fæ (talk) 12:14, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

    Again for context, these and several of the following were to highlight Evolution vs Creation in Islamic thought. I thought it was better if the source at least mentioned Oktar. --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 12:36, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

16. Propagating Islamic Creationism on the Internet
    • Duplicate. Fæ (talk) 11:06, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
17. Filiu, Jean-Pierre (May 21, 2009), "The Return of Political Mahdism", Current Trends In Islamist Ideology, 8, Chapter 8{{citation}}: CS1 maint: location (link) (PDF)

    Suggested for context, Islamic Messianism is mentioned in several of the sources already quoted, but not covered in the wikipage. --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 12:37, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

    Y+ Possibly a reliable source, however the publishing organization has a particular non-academic political mission and their own statement "To contribute to the development of American policy options and public diplomacy efforts within the Muslim world and to strategies to prosecute and to win the war against radical Islam." seems rather partisan and may influence the choice and content of publications. Fæ (talk) 10:30, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

18. The Anti‐Christ and the End of Time in Christian and Muslim Eschatological Literature
19. Apocalypse in Islam
20. Islam at the Dawn of the New Christian Millennium

21-30

21. Constantinople and the End Time: The Ottoman Conquest as a Portent of the Last Hour
22. New Muslim discourses on pluralism in the postmodern age: Nursi on religious pluralism and tolerance.

    Suggested for context, Bediuzzaman Said Nursi, and his influence on Oktar, is mentioned in several of the sources already quoted, but not covered in the wikipage. --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 12:38, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

23. Bediuzzaman Said Nursi's Discourse on Belief in Allah: A Study of Texts from Risale-i Nur Collection
24. God, Life, and the Cosmos: Christian and Islamic Perspectives Edited by Ted Peters, Muzaffar Iqbal and Syed Nomanul Haq
25. Reflections on Gülen Movement: How Islam is Promoting Liberal Democracy in Turkey
26. Turkish Islam's Moderate Face
27. Fethullah Gulen and His Liberal" Turkish Islam" Movement
28. Intercivilizational Conflict: Some Guidelines and Some Fault Lines
29. Post-Islamism and the Religious Discourse of Abd Al-Salam Yasin
30. Religion and politics in Turkey

31-40

31. Towards an Islamic Jurisprudence of the Environment
32. Technology and religious change: Islam and the impact of print
33. Cultural transitions in the Middle East
34. Access Controlled: The Shaping of Power, Rights, and Rule in Cyberspace‎
35. Sayin, Umit; Kence, Aykut (Nov–Dec 1999), Islamic Scientific Creationism: A New Challenge in Turkey, vol. 19, Reports of the National Center for Science Education, pp. 18–20, 25–29, ISSN 1064-2358, OCLC 425451166{{citation}}: CS1 maint: date format (link) CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link) Summary: Compares "being Muslim" in Turkey with other Islamic countries and describes the regime changes of the Ottoman Empire to the Turkish Republic. Explains evolution in Islamic understanding and discusses creationism's effects and evolution's place in the high school biology curriculum. Defines the Science Research Foundation's (BAV) and Harun Yahya's roles in the Creationist movement.
36. Emergence of the Islamic creationists by Jeffrey A. Stratford. Pdf-version here
37. Harun Yahya's Legal Troubles
38. Harrison, Peter (2010). The Cambridge Companion to Science and Religion. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 141. ISBN 0521712513. -- has about half a page on Oktar. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 07:41, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
39. Spencer, Robert (2003). Islam Unveiled. San Francisco: Encounter Books. p. 27. ISBN 1893554775. -- 1/3 page. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 07:48, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

41-

41. Numbers, Ronald (2009). Galileo Goes to Jail. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. p. 222. ISBN 0674033272.
42. "The Creationists: From Scientific Creationism to Intelligent Design" by Ronald Numbers
43. "The Illusion of Harmony" by Taner Edis
44. "TAXONOMY ALIVE AND KICKING: OR HOW TAXONOMY CAN HELP DEBUNKING CREATIONIST THINKING" by Thierry Backeljau, Kurt Jordaens & António M. de Frias Martins; published at the Gent University website; 2011
45. "AN ATTEMPT TO DESCRIBE ISLAMIC CREATIONISM" by Andya Primanda, Gadjah Mada University, 2004
46. THE MAHDI WEARS ARMANI, An Analysis of the Harun Yahya Enterprise; by Anne Ross Solberg, Södertörn Doctoral Dissertations, Department of Literature, History of Ideas, and Religion, University of Gothenburg, 2013

General comments on sources

1. It would be preferable to have had information on where these were published, and who the author is -- the first two elements in checking reliability.
2. The first three sources appear to be prima facie reliable.
3. The fourth I've got insufficient information to assess reliability.
4. The 5th seems to be reliable, but are behind a paywall (can't even find out what journal its from) -- please don't link to pdfs that are behind paywalls -- they're a complete and utter pain -- you end up with html mislabelled as pdf (and thus unreadable without changing file suffixes).
5. 6 & 7 appear to be prima facie reliable.
6. 8 I've got insufficient information to assess reliability.
7. 9 behind a paywall , but reliable.
8. 10 okay reliability (not published, but respectable author & website)
9. 11 behind a paywall , but reliable.
10. 12 reliable
11. 13 no page from link
12. 14&15 reliable
13. 16=2

Will take a break now. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 10:57, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Copyright violation

@Bbb23:, can you tell me what you are referring to by copyright violations? It definitely needs to go in the lead paragraphs, he is much more known for his cult than his creationism, at least for the last 5 years or so; I imagine most readers who are currently directed to this page are probably here because of the cult and the 'kittens'. In the past he was also known for his creationist work; not so much today, but it is still relevant and it's how he built his reputation; that's why I left it in the first paragraph.--Orwellianist (talk) 00:25, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Your material:

In more recent years, Adnan Oktar has been known for his televangelism on his TV channel, a9 TV; and has been described as the most notorious cult leader in Turkey. [1] His shows are noted for featuring 'kittens', his female devotees who apply heavy makeup, and undergo plastic surgery, and are usually wealthy socialites. It has been described as a 'feminist cult' and an 'Islamic sex cult'. [2] [3] He is also known to be extremely litigious, having filed more than 5 thousand lawsuit against individuals in the last decade. [4]

Here are the phrases that are either copied verbatim or closely paraphrased from the first source: "the most notorious cult leader in Turkey" (verbatim); "apply heavy makeup, and undergo plastic surgery. They also happen to be wealthy socialites." (a combination of verbatim and close paraphrasing.

As for the last sentence, it's in Turkish and I wasn't referring to it with my comment about copyright violations. I would say, though, that it's better not to describe the litigiousness ("known to be extremely litigious") but allow the facts to speak for themselves, i.e., "He has filed more than 5,000 lawsuits against individuals in the [specify the precise decade as "last" will change over time]." The same problem, btw, with the phrase "In more recent years". You should always avoid words like recent and current, etc.

As for the lead, it is supposed to summarize what's already in the body of the article. So, the material, when fixed, should go in the body first and then a "summary" of it in the lead if you and others think it's important enough to be included there.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:58, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I didn't imagine the phrase "most notorious cult leader" could possibly be subject to copyright protection. I guess I will make it "most infamous cult leader" then. Same for the other sentence. Also, I am aware that statements relative to the time of writing like recently should be avoided. But here it is meant to say "more recently", i.e. more recent than the events that the previous paragraph describes; it is not relative to the current time. You can still edit it if you like.

As for what to include in the lead section; the article already mentions the cult-nature of his group. The lead paragraphs didn't mention it, and perhaps it was appropriate 5 years ago, but thanks to his televangelism since then, it has gotten further attention. At the moment, the lead paragraph doesn't conform to WP:UNDUE; his reputation is currently based on his cult and his kittens, and his creationism is secondary, whereas the lead paragraph only focuses on creationism. I was merely trying to fix that. Television broadcasting section could use some expanding as well.--Orwellianist (talk) 02:12, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I have readded the paragraph, as well as other info. Tell me if you think there is anything wrong, or just edit them yourself if you like.--Orwellianist (talk) 03:58, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Historical revisionism template

@GorgeCustersSabre: why did you readd the Historical revisionism template? He contests he ever was a Holocaust denier, which I don't know if true, but from the article it seems evident that he most certainly is not now. What reason is there to keep that template?-- Orwellianist (talk) 19:06, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Dear Orwellianist, I hope you are well. Please don't take it personally. We merely disagree. IMHO Oktar was a revisionist, even if he disputes this. The evidence for this is overwhelming, as the article itself makes clear. If he no longer has revisionist views, or publishes revisionism, that is good but it doesn't mean the tag should be removed. Best regards, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 04:59, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

George Custer's Sabre, of course, there is nothing to take personally. In your opinion Oktar was a Holocaust denier. Fine. That's my opinion as well, he is probably lying when he says that that book was written by one of his friends, Nuri Özbudak. That's why I didn't remove those parts from the Holocaust denial and affirmation section. That section details the situation regarding that. But the problem is, Category names, list, and navigation templates do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, and they are unable to convey such nuances. Their use is especially sensitive in the case of biographies of living persons, see WP:BLPCAT. Holocaust denial is a serious charge, and a crime in several countries. If there is a good case to be made that he engaged in it in the past, then by all means the article should cover it relying on the sources, which it already does currently. I am merely saying that we cannot add him to Holocaust denier categories or navigation templates when he repeatedly reaffirms it and denies that a denial took place in his part. That would be in violation of WP:BLP. Even if we accept that there is no question that he was a holocaust denier (which we cannot, considering the severity of the charge the evidence is not enough), even then, there is no question that he is not one now, and adding such categories / navigation templates gives the impression that he is currently one. As I said, the problem with them is they are unable to convey nuances, and their use must be avoided in particular on the biographies of living persons if there is doubt.--Orwellianist (talk) 13:29, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Dear Orwellianist, I hope you are fine. This is a very thorough and helpful explanation and I can now see you are right and that I was in error. Thank you. Please let me undo my edit. Thanks and regards, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 04:57, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the very mature response. All the best, Orwellianist (talk) 07:14, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

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But this does not mean that these accusations are true until determined by the courts.

All accusations listed in the article can not be listed until determined by the courts, because any one can accuse anyone. If I accused someone, that does not mean that people can say that he is a criminal. that is not fair.

It is neutral and fair to add this sentence to the listed accusations "But this does not mean that these accusations are true until determined by the courts."

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmedsami1406h (talk • contribs) 00:14, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

I think that I will stop working on wikipedia because there are accusations and aspersions about Muslim scientists like Harun Yahya (Adnan Oktar) and I tried to add this sentence "But this does not mean that these accusations are true until determined by the courts." and this is the neutral and fair but I was blocked for two days and then seven days and my edit was ignored. This is not neutralism. And this is not fairness. So, mostly, I will stop working on wikipedia Insha'ALLAH.

Why Some people are misreported and when someone want to say neutral word, he is blocked. Is that an intentionally misreporting about Adnan Oktar or what?

People who say fabrications abuse themselves before they abuse the people who are misreported. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmedsami1406h (talk • contribs) 04:32, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

The truth is more valuable than wikipedia account. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmedsami1406h (talk • contribs) 00:48, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Fair warning

Editors of this article are given fair warning that User:Captain Occam, a creationist who was site-banned by ArbCom due to his editing in the "race & intelligence" topic area has been inexplicably released from his site ban by the Committee after an appeal, and has expressed in this thread his desire to "correct" the problems his perceives in this article. Captain Occam is a POV warrior whoae editing must be closely monitored for bias. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:46, 14 January 2017 (UTC)