Talk:Azerbaijan: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Line 271: Line 271:


:This is a general article about the country. We do not include every criminal incident in a general article. [[User:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#464646">'''''Grand'''''</span>]][[User talk:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#808080">'''''master'''''</span>]] 21:15, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
:This is a general article about the country. We do not include every criminal incident in a general article. [[User:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#464646">'''''Grand'''''</span>]][[User talk:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#808080">'''''master'''''</span>]] 21:15, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Grandmaster. We cannot write everything related to the country in the general article about the country. There are specific articles in Wikipedia where specific topics could be mentioned. --[[User:Interfase|Interfase]] ([[User talk:Interfase|talk]]) 21:28, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 21:28, 27 February 2014

Good articleAzerbaijan has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
October 1, 2009Peer reviewReviewed
May 21, 2011Good article nomineeListed
May 24, 2011Peer reviewReviewed
Current status: Good article

Template:Outline of knowledge coverage Template:Vital article

Northern Iran

Since a huge number of Iranian population are Azeri (Including me!) and those people are genetically related to other Iranic Peoples, I think the term "Northern Iran" is both historically and logically more accurate.

according to many histories azerbaijan people are a mixture between proto turkish people like scythians and huns and later turkish people like khazars and seljuks and later during mongol invasion some uighor turkish tribes immigrated to the area, the north and south azerbaijan has been a turkic accomodated area for at least 3500 years, geneticaly azeri people are so close to people of turkey, common turkic looks is white skinned and colored eyes with hairs varying between black to pure blond, this is while persians of iran are brown and semitic, genetics of turkic people are also very similar to many east european nations because of massive cuman, kipchak, bulgar, khazar and other turkic tribes immigrations to the east europe countries, this is while persians have the closest genetic traits to Arabic and semitic people, based on the historical facts it is quite wrong to consider azerbaijan an iranian area, the only known government in azerbaijan were local khanats, later during the safavid dynasty of iran (which were also a turkic clan) ottoman empire captured azerbaijan, but the area remained under khanat feudal systems until russian empire and qajar dynasty of iran commensed some claims over the area and at last a war begun between qajars and russians over deviding the lands, after many years of war they agreed to put the arax river as the border line, since then north azerbaijan was under russian and later soviet rule and south azerbaijan occupied by iran, nowaday north azerbaijan has gained its independence but south azerbaijan is still under iran's cruelty. the population of azeri turks in iran are at least estimated to be about 20 million souls, this must not be the source of mistake about considering persians as whites, those are iranian azeri turks, persians are a brown semitic people. also this is a very accurate map about the azeri accomodated areas in iran: http://www.joshuaproject.net/profiles/maps/m18859_ir.pdf more references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_origins_of_the_Turkish_people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seljuq_Empire http://southaz.blogspot.com/2010/07/irans-multi-cultural-and-multi-ethnic.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural-Altaic_languages http://www.iranian.com/main/blog/jahanshah-javid/genetics-iranians-least-similar-europeans-or-other-near-easterners http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qizilbash http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/21326/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Azerbaijan#Azerbaijan_Democratic_Republic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanid_race http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/tomyris.html

Map of Azerbaijan (Karabakh)

Since the Karabakh region is not under Azerbaijan's control (and has never been under Republic of Azerbaijan's control) I propose the main map of Azerbaijan to have Karabakh highlighted in different colour, just like in the current map of Georgia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Georgia_%28orthographic_projection_with_inset%29.svg/550px-Georgia_%28orthographic_projection_with_inset%29.svg.png

MosMusy (talk)

Lead section

I propose the following instead of the current one. The existing lead is less informative and poorly written with puffery expressions. I tried with the best of my ability to abide by the rules of MOS:LEAD. I also request from skilled contributors to help with more succinct and concise wordings. Thank you all in advance.

Azerbaijan (/ˌæzərbaɪˈdʒɑːn/ ⓘ AZ-ər-by-JAHN; Azerbaijani: Azərbaycan), officially the Republic of Azerbaijan (Azerbaijani: Azərbaycan Respublikası) is the largest country in the Caucasus region located at the crossroads of Western Asia and Eastern Europe.[1] Known for its wealthy crude oil and natural gas reserves, Azerbaijan is bounded by the Caspian Sea to the east, Russia to the north, Georgia to the northwest, Armenia to the west, and Iran to the south. The exclave of Nakhchivan is bounded by Armenia to the north and east, Iran to the south and west, while having a short borderline with Turkey to the northwest.

§2

At 86.6 thousand square kilometers (33.436 thousand sq mi) in total and around 9.4 million people, Azerbaijan, with its strategic geopolitical location,[2] [3] has been at the crossroads of several civilizations over the centuries. Known to have the majority of the climate zones, the country is home to rich and diverse fauna and flora, which is also reflected in the richness of the national cuisine.

§3

The location of human and pre-human habitation that dates back two million years, remnants of Azerbaijan's history include Bronze Age petroglyphs and medieval structures. In modern times, it was the first Muslim-majority country to have operas, theater, and plays.[4] The Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR) also, established on May 28, 1918, was the first secular Muslim-majority country build on the principles of western style democracy with a constitution that granted equal rights to all citizens, including the voting right for women.[5] That entity, however, existed only for 23 months as it was invaded and incorporated into the Soviet Union by the Red Army under the name Azerbaijan SSR.[6] At the verge of the Soviet Union's collaps, ethnic strife in Nagorno-Karabakh and Moscow's indifference to the conflict resulted in calls for independence and secession, which culminated in Black January. Subsequently, the ADR's flag was restored as the state flag and, following that, the modern Republic of Azerbaijan emerged as a successor to Azerbaijan SSR on October 18, 1991.

§4

The early years of independence were overshadowed by the Nagorno-Karabakh War with Armenia. By the time of the ceasefire agreement in 1994, Armenia occupied and expelled over half million people from up to 16 percent of the Azerbaijani territory, which included Nagorno-Karabakh, its surrounding territories and the enclaves of Karki, Yukhary Askipara, Barkhudarly, and Sofulu.[7] Concerning that, four UNSC resolutionscalling on Armenian forces to withdraw from the occupied territories, yet to be implemented. As such, Azerbaijan remains to have one of the highest number of refugee and internally displaced people per capita in the world.[8] Despite that, relative to the other Eastern European and CIS states, it has reached high levels of human development,[9] economic development,[10] literacy rate,[11] as well as a low rate of unemployment,[12] and intentional homicide.[13][14] With diverse musical traditions, the country also won the 56th annual Eurovision Song Contest and recently launched its first telecommunication satellite. Azerbaijan has increasing global significance in counter terrorism efforts and as a provider of energy security for Europe,[15] as well as its recent non-permanent membership of the UNSC.[16]

§5

Today, being one of the six independent Turkic states and a unitary constitutional republic, Azerbaijan has diplomatic relations with 176[17] countries and holds permanent memberships in 48[18] international organizations. The constitution of the country does not declare an official religion, and all major political forces are secular nationalist, but the majority of people and some opposition movements adhere to Shia Islam.[19] The Constitution recognizes the language rights of diverse ethnic minorities of the country, which include the State's responsibility to ensure the development of the minority languages, their rights to use, to be raised in, to get an education, and to engage in creative activities in their native languages. It further states that, no one can be deprived of the right to use their native language. By joining the European Convention on Human Rights Azerbaijan also abolished the capital punishment in 1998 replacing it with life imprisonment in 2001, and legalized the same-sex sexual activity in 2000. The households headed by such couples, however, yet to be eligible for the same legal protections available to heterosexual couples.

Gulmammad | talk 14:45, 6 July 2013 (UTC)Gulmammad | talk 16:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, this is a lot worse. Putting things that aren't even remotely connected in the same sentence (e.g. "Famous for its wealthy crude oil and natural gas reserves, Azerbaijan is bounded by ..."), general peacocking (e.g "strategic geo-political", "it prides itself for ..."), etc. — Lfdder (talk) 15:07, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comment. Can you please list all the places that need improvement and suggest alternatives? Rejecting the whole thing based on the argument you brought is not really helpful. Lets be WP:BOLD. "It prides itself" is softer than sharply stating "It is" when in reality I could use the latter as it is supported by sources. I look forward to your further suggestions. Thank you, Gulmammad | talk 15:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The introduction to this article is poorly written. There are many grammatical mistakes and awkward wording. I presume the writer(s) is/are not native English speakers. In a general introduction to the country, it does not seem appropriate to give so much attention to homosexual rights/attitudes. This may be a side issue but it does not serve as a way to speak generally about the country. Briangammill (talk) 09:04, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Briangammill. Your comments are noted and will be taken into account in the next revision. Could you please elaborate more on "There are many grammatical mistakes and awkward wording"? I'd like to know specifically what needs to be fixed. If possible, please mention all the issues. Regards, Gulmammad | talk 17:37, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What should be done is the restoration of the older introduction and only changing to a new one once it has actually been agreed to on the talk page. I see you still have left out any link to the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. CMD (talk) 10:04, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, putting gay agenda in the lead is POV and Azerbaijanis would certainly find it insulting.--Kohelet (talk) 13:37, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please consider discussing your lead-related edits on here before moving them to the article. User CMD: as I've mentioned in your talk page, the subject of this article is Azerbaijan not NKR. The lead has a lengthy paragraph about NKR War and the infobox has a link to NKR. Also, lets not forget that this article is watched by 314 users and if they have objections, they can present them here. Thank you. Gulmammad | talk 20:34, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The proposed lead is quite long in terms of WP:LEAD and contains excessive details, particularly it repeats the data on population and area, already provided in the infobox. On the other hand, it doesn't highlight the fact that Azerbaijan is one of the founding members of GUAM, CIS and Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. Having compared both versions (the previous and the currently existing one), I'd rather opt for the previous one, which showcases a better summary style. Brandmeistertalk 12:30, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comment. I completely agree that the current version of the lead might not be the best but at the same time we should avoid reverting it back to its several months past version. That version was in so many ways outdated and had irrelevant information too. What we should be doing is to improve the current version by taking into account other people's changes as well. I hope this suggestion is not off putting and you will continue improving the article. Gulmammad | talk 21:46, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Basically this was the lead when the article was promoted to the good article status (much like the previous lead version). Since the current lead rather breaches WP:GACR (particularly criteria 1, 3 and 5) and has a slight advertisement tone, I propose to retain the previous lead until the proposed version becomes ripe enough and ready for replacement. Many excessive details, like those about Constitution or LGBT issues, may go to the relevant sections of the article rather than lead. Brandmeistertalk 11:04, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Brandmeister, I see you have reverted to some older version again. Here is the problem with that version: Many things have changed since the article was promoted to the good article status. For example, the current version states that, '"Azerbaijan has diplomatic relations with 158 countries and holds membership in 38 international organizations,"' citing a source of 2007 but in reality '"Azerbaijan has diplomatic relations with 176 countries and holds permanent memberships in 48 international organizations."' Worse yet, a whole paragraph is filled with the names of international organizations which is completely irrelevant. Also, the current version lacks these recent significant achievements: '"relative to the other Eastern European and CIS states, it has reached high levels of human development, economic development, literacy rate, as well as a low rate of unemployment, and intentional homicide. [...] the country also won the 56th annual Eurovision Song Contest and recently launched its first telecommunication satellite. Azerbaijan has increasing global significance in counter terrorism efforts and as a provider of energy security for Europe, as well as its recent non-permanent membership of the UNSC."' We could perhaps improve the wordings of the mentioned facts but I believe they should not be left out. LGBT and minority rights related information is also, in my opinion, relevant. Below is the lead I propose and underneath let us discuss the improvements.
§1

Azerbaijan (/ˌæzərbaɪˈdʒɑːn/ ⓘ AZ-ər-by-JAHN;Azerbaijani: Azərbaycan), officially the Republic of Azerbaijan (Azerbaijani: Azərbaycan Respublikası), is the largest country in the Caucasus region of Eurasia.[20] Known for its wealth of crude oil and natural gas reserves, Azerbaijan is bounded by the Caspian Sea to the east, Russia to the north, Georgia to the northwest, Armenia to the west, and Iran to the south. The exclave of Nakhchivan is bounded by Armenia to the north and east, Iran to the south and west, while having a short borderline with Turkey to the northwest.

§2

Azerbaijan, with its strategic geopolitical location,[21][22] has been at the crossroads of several civilizations over the centuries. Known to have the majority of the climate zones, the country is home to rich and diverse fauna and flora, which are also reflected in the richness of the national cuisine.

§3

The location of human and pre-human habitation that dates back two million years, remnants of Azerbaijan's history include Bronze Age petroglyphs and medieval structures. In modern times, it was the first Muslim-majority country to have operas, theater, and plays.[4] The Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR) also established on May 28, 1918, was the first secular Muslim-majority country built on the principles of a western style democracy with a constitution that granted equal rights to all citizens, including voting right for women.[5] That entity, however, existed only for 23 months as it was invaded and incorporated into the Soviet Union by the Red Army under the name Azerbaijan SSR.[23] At the verge of the Soviet Union's collapse, ethnic strife in Nagorno-Karabakh and Moscow's indifference to the conflict resulted in calls for independence and secession, which culminated in Black January. Subsequently, the ADR's flag was restored as the state flag and, following that, the modern Republic of Azerbaijan emerged as a successor to Azerbaijan SSR on October 18, 1991.

§4

The early years of independence were overshadowed by the Nagorno-Karabakh War with Armenia. By the time of the ceasefire agreement in 1994, Armenia occupied and expelled over half million people from up to 14 percent[24] of the Azerbaijani territory, which included Nagorno-Karabakh and its surrounding territories[25] and the enclaves of Karki, Yukhary Askipara, Barkhudarly, and Sofulu. Concerning that, four UNSC resolutions calling on Armenian forces to withdraw from the occupied territories, yet to be implemented. As such, Azerbaijan remains to have one of the highest number of refugee and internally displaced people per capita in the world.[26] Despite that, relative to the other Eastern European and CIS states, it has reached high levels of human development,[27] economic development,[28] literacy rate,[29] as well as a low rate of unemployment,[30] and intentional homicide.[31][32] With diverse musical traditions, the country also won the 56th annual Eurovision Song Contest and recently launched its first telecommunication satellite. Azerbaijan has increasing global significance in counter-terrorism efforts and as a provider of energy security for Europe,[33] as well as its recent non-permanent membership of the United Nations Security Council.[34]

§5

Today, being one of the six independent Turkic states and aunitary constitutional republic, Azerbaijan has diplomatic relations with 176[17] countries and holds permanent memberships in 48[18] international organizations. The constitution of the country does not identify an official religion, and all major political forces are secular nationalist, but the majority of people and some opposition movements adhere to Shia Islam.[35] The Constitution recognizes the language rights of diverse ethnic minorities of the country, which include the State's responsibility to ensure the development of the minority languages, their rights to be used, as well as the rights of ethnic minorities to be raised in their distinct culture, to get an education, and to engage in creative activities in their native languages. By joining the European Convention on Human Rights Azerbaijan also abolished capital punishment in 1998 replacing it with life imprisonment in 2001. Gulmammad | talk 21:33, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Removed from §2 At 86.6 thousand square kilometers (33.436 thousand sq mi) in total and a population of around 9.4 million, from §5 legalized the same-sex sexual activity in 2000. The households headed by such couples, however, are not yet eligible for the same legal protections available to heterosexual couples. and It further states that no one can be deprived of the right to use his native language.
Some obsolete data, as you have mentioned, should be updated, like diplomatic relations. I also support the inclusion of "relative to the other Eastern European and CIS states, it has reached high levels of human development, economic development, literacy rate, as well as a low rate of unemployment, and intentional homicide" to the current lead. But I agree with Briangammill in that LGBT issues are redundant in the lead and the rest should be agreed before inclusion. Brandmeistertalk 22:19, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All the issues raised here have been addressed. If you have any further comments/suggestions, please present them here. Otherwise I will go ahead and move this lead to the article. Thank you. Gulmammad | talk 04:50, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
They have not been addressed. No-one else has agreed this WP:Puffery lead is a good idea; in fact, they see it as worse than what is currently there. Again, make specific suggestions on what you want to change in the current lead, it'll probably get you further. CMD (talk) 16:28, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
CMD: Let others who were part of this discussion talk on their own behalf. I have made all the changes they requested. Unless you have specific suggestions (such as 'X' should be changed to 'Y'), I shall take your attempt as simple trying to inhibit the process of improving the article. Thank you and happy editing. Gulmammad | talk 23:50, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Others talked on their own behalf above ^ . Asking me to offer specific suggestions on your lead when you have refused to do so for the current lead, is quite wp:pot. As it stands, the wp:burden is on you, who wants to change the lead from the stable version, to convince others that your lead is an improvement. This has so far not been done. CMD (talk) 15:39, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As Brandmeister point out above, the proposed lead is not only less concise (I object to the removal of "at the crossroads of Asia/Europe") but has an unfortunate "advertising tone" that is not a good WP fit (for ex., all in one lead: "most significant", "increasing significance", "sensitive location", "strategic...location", "keys to the rich energetic...increasing...", "rich" and "richest" in the same sentence," "also won...Eurovision" (in the lead?...in the history section? really?), "in a country called Azerbaijan." Too much hyperbole. DLinth (talk) 18:02, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
DLind: None of the list of phrases as you present above appear in the lead and the rest is in accordance with MOS:LEAD (please check the lead therein). CMD, unless you are going to tell me what exactly should be changed rather than throwing vague expressions around, your stand is invalid. I update the lead. If you have suggestions, we can discuss them further before adding to the lead. Gulmammad | talk 15:23, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The current version still has some problems. The previous lead had four distinct paragraphs about the country's outline, history, international relations and internal development. Now it's a kind of mishmash, featuring various topics mixed in five paragraphs. Also, "Moscow's indifference to the conflict" brings some neutrality problems - it might or might not be so, but it's not the best wording and place for it. I think we can resolve the issue by considering what should be added to the previous version, not by completely rewriting it. Brandmeistertalk 17:18, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What should be changed is that you should stop this insistence on bloating the lead with puffery like "strategic geopolitical location", "rich and diverse", fluff like winning eurovision, and avoiding direct mention of the NKR. Propose changes to the current concise lead, like you keep asking everyone else to do with yours. CMD (talk) 12:28, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
CMD, it seems that you have nothing but hate towards the subject of this article. All of the phrases that make you unhappy ("strategic geopolitical location", "rich and diverse", "winning eurovision") are cited properly and none of them is insignificant, especially winning eurovison. Only Armenians would despise it or see as insignificant because they never won a eurvision competition. Yours is the story of the fox and the grapes. And your attempt of including what you call NKR in the lead is baseless. Unless you have something constructive to say, don't interfere. I have no obligation of lubricating well-cited facts just to make them smooth for you. Gulmammad | talk 05:53, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A claim to the higher ground based on hate is extremely tenuous if in the same breath you decide to go bash Armenia. Just because something can be cited doesn't mean it should be included. It's not just me anyway, every other editor here has disagreed with your version. See WP:Consensus. CMD (talk) 13:32, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Urek Meniashvili's reinsertion of Median and Eliseus pictures

Please don't reinsert the images that allude to the link between modern Azerbaijani Turks and Medians or "Caucasian Albanians." Zimmarod (talk) 22:01, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Azerbaijan

Azerbayjan Country lying south of the Caucasus and east of the Republic of Armenia. The present Independent Republic of Azerbayjan is the northern part of the Turkish-speaking region which also includes north-western Iran. The capital of the southern part of Azerbayjan is Tabriz whilst the capital of the Independent Republic is Baku. The Independent Republic of Azerbayjan received its name from the Turkish invasion of 1918 although historically it may be identified with the Albania of classical writers. The country lies to the south of the Caucasus and to the east of the Republic of Armenia. More than half of the country is mountainous, though the eastern coastal strip bordering the Caspian Sea is relatively flat. From the twelfth century at least Baku has been known for its natural oil wells which are also the basis of its modern economy. Turkish became the main language of the country after the Seljuk invasions of the eleventh century. Most of the population is Muslim although there are a small number of Zoroastrians with their own fire-temple. Unlike much of Central Asia and Iran Azerbayjan has its own well-developed, dressedstone masonry tradition. This can be seen in the tombs, madrassas and mosques of Azerbayjan which have façades carved in relief in a style reminiscent of Seljuk Anatolia. One of the best examples of this stone-working tradition is the palace of the Shirvan Shas in Baku which has monolithic stone columns with austere geometric capitals. Baked brick was also used throughout Azerbayjan, though predominantly in south (now western Iran). One of the most elegant examples of Seljuk brickwork is found in the Gunbad-i-Surkh at Maragha which was built in 1146. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.162.1.63 (talk) 15:15, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology section

Why the useful and cited section "Etymology" was removed and deleted by the User:Chipmunkdavis in this revision?! That section was an accepted revision and because of that the whole article Name of Azerbaijan redirected to it. I don't see any valid reason for this mass removal of sourced content. Please, User:Chipmunkdavis and User:Brandmeister discuss that. --Zyma (talk) 08:46, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure how that was caught up in all of that. Reinserted, assuming no objections. CMD (talk) 12:32, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Good. But please review your edits before and after saving. Thanks. --Zyma (talk) 17:09, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Urek Meniashvili's reinsertion of Median and Eliseus pictures, Guba grave nonsense and other issues

I repeat for the second time - please don't reinsert the images that allude to the link between modern Azerbaijani Turks and Medians or "Caucasian Albanians." This is edit war and will be dealt accordingly. I also deleted the controversial map pf Azerbaijan since it is a fringe opinion not replicated anywhere else (see this map for a more common perception on regional geography); furthermore, I think this is doctored evidence. The Guba mass grave section is about a nationalist POV that is not supported by any sources whatsoever; the mentioned sources are either irrelevant or POV. Zimmarod (talk) 16:33, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Azerbaijan" on the map "Russia at the Caucasus"

According Wikipedia:Consensus "After someone makes a change or addition to a page, others who read it can choose either to leave the page as it is or to change it. When editors do not reach agreement by editing, discussion on the associated talk pages continues the process toward consensus". Please, don't use this map before editors reach agreement by editing.

About map. As we see, region Azerbailan is a part of Russian Empire, but not Persia. It's nonsense, because in 19th century this name means region in Persia and sometimes (after 1880-x) for Iranian Azerbaijan and modern Azerbaijan, but never only for modern Azerbaijan. Divot (talk) 13:50, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually this issue was discussed already in Russian Wikipedia. Administrator concluded that the image could be kept in the article. Second time also[1]. --Interfase (talk) 14:24, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Divot, as you did in Russian Wikipedia, you are continuing to make some original conclusions according to this map. There are enough sources saying that the term Azerbaijan was used also for the territories showing on this map. --Interfase (talk) 14:29, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And what about errors on the map? Russian Wikipedia is not reliable source. Divot (talk) 14:32, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Once more. In 19th century this name means region in Persia and sometimes (after 1880-x) for Iranian Azerbaijan and modern Azerbaijan, but never only for modern Azerbaijan. Divot (talk) 14:34, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"never only for modern Azerbaijan" - who says that? By the way the part of the term is in Southern Azerbaijan. But you cannot interpreted this map yourself and say that there is some error. Look, I don't have any time to make the same discussion with you with the same arguments. It was already discussed in Russian Wikipedia. I think that you prefer to go against consensus (wherever it's reached). This is destructive action. SO I reported you. --Interfase (talk) 14:51, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
""never only for modern Azerbaijan" - who says that?" - for example Robert H. Hewsen map. Divot (talk) 14:57, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And? This is not an argument. This map doesn't show us that the term "Azerbaijan" was not never used for the lands in the north of Araks. --Interfase (talk) 15:02, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This map shows us that the term "Azerbaijan" means Iranian Azerbaijan. Maybe with moderm Azerbaijan too, but Iranian Azerbaijan indispensable Divot (talk) 15:06, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, this map shows us that Hewsen used the term to describe the certain region for the certain part of the history. --Interfase (talk) 15:12, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Iranica: AZERBAIJAN i. Geography: "characterized by volcanic constructions—along the “volcanic cicatrix” that follows the internal ridge of the Zagros and marks its contact with the central Iranian plateau". Divot (talk) 15:06, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Great. According to this article: "On the other hand in certain passages, he annexes to it, in addition to the steppes of Moḡān, all of the province of Arrān, bringing the frontier of the country up to Kor, indicating, however, that from this period the conception of Azerbaijan tended to be extended to the north and that its meaning was being rapidly transformed." --Interfase (talk) 15:10, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"extended to the north and that its meaning was being rapidly transformed" don't means "replace to the north". Divot (talk) 15:16, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But we can see that it was used for the north. If some other lands wasn't mentioned around the term on the map you cannot say that there is some error as well as there are no sources claiming that the term wasn't used for these territories. So your opinion and your conclusions are not reliable. --Interfase (talk) 15:23, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see the sense in this discussion. You can call the mediator. Divot (talk) 15:25, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Listen, we already had discussed this issue with the mediator in Russian Wikipedia. You know that the decision of mediator was to keep the image. You came here with the same arguments and want to start everything again. This is a destructive action. --Interfase (talk) 15:29, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In Russian Wikipedia administrator referred to english good article with this map ("Более того, она находится в том же разделе и в ХС англовики, нейтральности которой я доверяю больше, чем данному диалогу"). Now you refer to the Administrator's decision in Russian Wiki? Charmant. Call mediator ))). Divot (talk) 15:37, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In Russian Wikipedia administrator delete this map: "Чудесная история с добавлением в англовику и ссылкой на мое решение. Убираю.". Divot (talk) 22:29, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I asked George Bournoutian about this map, here's his answer:

The map is wrong. The word Azerbijan is written in another font and script--compare it to Georgia. It is impossible to put Erevan and Lake Sevan in the so-called Azerbijan in 1847-- since it was until 1840 the Armenian Province and after that the Erevan Guberniia.

All Russian sources (see Akty etc. do not use Azerbijan for anywhere except the Iranian northwestern province. Either the map is a fake or it is totally wrong-- just because a map has a designation does not make it right. The Arabs have for years refer to the Persian Gulf as the Arab Gulf--

That does not make it right.

Divot (talk) 20:48, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The map is wrong and unprecedented. Mistakes do happen now and did happen in the past. There are various dubious images and propaganda and other POV texts about "Guba mass grave" which I deleted. The article is in poor shape and should be re-edited in its entirety. Hablabar (talk) 02:20, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Hmains. I removed the "referenced" text because it is not referenced properly. References are not relevant. Please consult WP:NPOV to see what is proper referencing and NPOV sourcing. Hablabar (talk) 04:11, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The arguments of Bournoutian are not logical. The font for Persia on the same map is also different, that does not mean that the term is wrong. And British consul to Persia also placed Azerbaijan on both sides of Araks: [2] If it is a mistake, don't you think there are too many such mistakes in historical sources? Grandmaster 23:12, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"don't you think there are too many such mistakes in historical sources?" - We don't think, but Azerbaijani historians think so. Divot (talk) 23:20, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. "British consul to Persia also placed Azerbaijan on both sides of Araks" - but this map placed Azerbaijan only on one side of Araks. Divot (talk) 23:22, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The word "Azerbijan" is actually written across the border line. Grandmaster 23:41, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Of course not. On this 'historical' map Ardabil and Tabriz are not included in Azerbaijan region.
BTW, British consul to Persia and your map - primary sources. According Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources: "Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources".
However, I have no reason five time to explain the same things, call moderator. Divot (talk) 00:06, 16 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't changed my mind. Divot's arguments are not reliable. He claims that the map is wrong. But it is just his own opinion. There are a lot of sources saying that the term "Azerbaijan" was used also for the lands on the northern part of Araks river. In the map we can see it clearly. Divot refers to Bournoutians words, but they are not published in reliable sources. The arguments of Bournoutian are not logical and not reliable. So there are no any proofs that the map is wrong. Divot and other users want to remove this map just because they don't like it. This issue needs solution.--Interfase (talk) 22:43, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Maps

I, to an extent, agree with Gransmater that maps alone cannot be references but I found that notion stated explicitly nowhere. Perhaps I didnt look at a right place. But anyway that does not apply the the recent revert by Gransmaster since in Hewsen atlas and in Redgate maps come with accompanying commentary, and I included that language into references. As to Albania, yes Hewsen uses Albania but also Arran and Aghuank, and mentions the marzpanate period as well. Hablabar (talk) 01:57, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see maps being mentioned anywhere as reliable sources in WP:RS. Plus, personal interpretation of maps is an WP:OR anyway, so any references to maps should go. Maps can only be used to illustrate the text of the article. As for Hewsen's text accompanying the maps, he clearly talks about Caucasian Albania as a state there, in particular with a reference to Artsakh, and does the same in a more detailed work "Ethno-history". I see no mention of a marzpanate or whatever in either of the works. In particular, in his atlas Hewsen dedicated a special text to explain what Artsakh was (on p. 102), and there he mentions only Albania, and no marzpanate.

Arc'ax was lost to Albania in 387, while Sawdk' remained as one of the districts of Siwnik. Under Albanian rule, Arc'ax, while often referred to, does not appear to have been a recognized political entity, and, beginning with the ninth century, when our sources become more explicit, we find it composed of a number of small political units. For example, a Siwnid principality called Xac'en in the center and an Aransahikid one called Miws Haband 'the Other Haband' (later Dizak) in the south. The Arc'ax of the ASX also contains the principality of Kolt', and it is not impossible that the princes of Kolt' were its original owners, although at the lime of the cession of these lands to Albania in the period 363-387, Kolt' and Arc'ax are spoken of as separate entities. At present, then, we have no idea what the Arc'ax of the ASX is meant represent: an Armenian principality, an Albanian jurisdiction, or a rough lumping together of territories by the author who did not understand the nature of Arc'ax to begin with.

I don't think that you can twist the references like this, removing Albania and replacing it with some "marzpanate". Please refer only to published texts, and provide quotes at talk before inclusion, so that we could verify them. I will do the same. Grandmaster 15:33, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Map for the section Name of Azerbaijan

I created the "Name of Azerbaijan" section, where the usage of the term "Azerbaijan" (not "Atropathena" of "Adargaigan") is described. Here we can see a lot of sources claiming that the term "Azerbaijan" was used also for the lands on the north side of Aras river. In the map we can see it very well. I think in this section we can use this map which illustrates this fact very well. --Interfase (talk) 20:05, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The map is wrong. See '"Azerbaijan" on the map "Russia at the Caucasus"' section. Divot (talk) 20:32, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You still didn't show any sources saying that this map is wrong. --Interfase (talk) 20:57, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Proper sourcing always depends on context; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process.". Divot (talk) 22:37, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And? Where is common sense? I just see your non reliable opinion saying that "the map is wrong". Without any serious arguments. --Interfase (talk) 22:53, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Once more, see '"Azerbaijan" on the map "Russia at the Caucasus"' section. Divot (talk) 23:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

New Section Name Azerbaijan

This new section by Interfase is based squarely on WP:CHERRY where hand-picked sources, some of the dubious, are called to support an old nationalist claim about an Azerbaijan that supposedly stretched across Iran into the Caucasus. The controversial map lobbied by Interfase before and discussed by User:Divot served the same purpose. Please consult WP:NPOV and WP:BALANCE before any further edits and discuss this section thoroughly in TP. Hablabar (talk) 23:12, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted your edits, because this is WP:VANDALISM. The section is based on reliable sources showing the usage of the term in the history. If you have something to add do it. --Interfase (talk) 11:43, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is not just a matter of reliable sources, as Interfase argues. First, the newly added passage "name of Azerbaijan" is totally irrelevant and redundant, for previous section titled "etymology" does by definition mean the origin of the name and there is no need for another section. Second, the sources of the newly added passage are in fact selective and confusing and there is no need for such a detailed historical review here. And finally, Interfase definitely cannot accuse those who revert his edits of vandalism, because it is his edit that tries to disrupt the integrity of the article and not the revert of it; and the revert in this case obviously does not qualify as vandalism the way it is defined in WP.Roses&guns (talk) 20:46, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, this revert is a typical act of vandalism. You removed the significant information about the history of the term "Azerbaijan" and its usage in the history with a lot of reliable sources. This is very useful information about Azerbaijan and shows that how in the history "Azerbaijan" was used for the lands of the region. --Interfase (talk) 21:01, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please inspect what vandalism is not. This is not vandalism. Your sources are one sided per WP:CHERRY and possibly misquoted. The entire paragraph is a POV overkill. Hablabar (talk) 23:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Safarov

The case of Ramil Safarov is entirely left out of the article, while it has been an outstanding international case involving Azerbaijan - it has been extensively publicized in the media and addressed by most of the major international organizations. It needs to be included either as a separate section or within the section "Foreign relations of Azerbaijan".Roses&guns (talk) 14:26, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is a general article about the country. We do not include every criminal incident in a general article. Grandmaster 21:15, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Grandmaster. We cannot write everything related to the country in the general article about the country. There are specific articles in Wikipedia where specific topics could be mentioned. --Interfase (talk) 21:28, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Azerbaijan may be considered to be inAsia and/or Europe. The United Nations classification of world regions places Azerbaijan in Western Asia. Conversely, the BBC,Collegiate Dictionary, andWorldatlas.com place Azerbaijan in Europe.
  2. ^ "Azerbaijan decides Europe's energy security". United Press International. Retrieved July 6, 2013. [...] Azerbaijan is accordingly to Zb.Brzeziznski, former US National Security Adviser under J.Carter administration one of the most significant "geopolitical pivots" of Eurasia. Due to its geography, Azerbaijan has a "sensitive location" that presents itself as a "defensive shield" for the Caspian Sea : it opens or blocks the access to many significant extra-regional actors, oil and gas thirsty. Baku has a pair of keys to the rich energetic Caspian Sea region whose place in the global geopolitics of energy is increasing proportionally to the degree of instability in the Middle East.
  3. ^ "Geopolitical Journey: Azerbaijan and America". Stratfor . Retrieved July 6, 2013. There is a point where three great powers -- Russia, Turkey and Persia -- meet: the Caucasus. At the moment they converge in a country called Azerbaijan. That fact makes Azerbaijan a battleground for these three great powers, which have competed with each other along various borders for centuries. Read more: Geopolitical Journey: Azerbaijan and America {{cite web}}: Text "Stratfor Follow us: @stratfor on Twitter" ignored (help); Text "Stratfor on Facebook." ignored (help)
  4. ^ a b E. Cornell, Svante (2006). The Politicization of Islam in Azerbaijan. Silk Road Paper. pp. 124, 222, 229, 269–270. Cite error: The named reference "E.Cornell" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
  5. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference Swietochowski Borderland was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  6. ^ Pipes, Richard (1997). The Formation of the Soviet Union: Communism and Nationalism 1917–1923 (2nd ed.). Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press. pp. 218–220, 229. ISBN 978-0-674-30951-7.
  7. ^ "Tackling Azerbaijan's IDP Burden". International Crisis Group. Retrieved July 1, 2013.
  8. ^ "Education in Azerbaijan" (PDF). UNICEF.
  9. ^ "Human Development Index and its components" (PDF). United Nations Development Programme.
  10. ^ "Interactive Infographic of the World's Best Countries". Newsweek. 15 August 2010. Archived from the original on 22 July 2011. Retrieved 24 July 2011. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  11. ^ Literacy rate among schoolchildren in Azerbaijan is 100% – UN report –News.Az–Published 28 October 2011.
  12. ^ "Employment statistics in Azerbaijan". The State Statistical Committee of the Republic of Azerbaijan. Retrieved 2007-05-26.
  13. ^ "Seventh United Nations survey of crime trends and operations of criminal justice systems, covering the period 1998 – 2000" (PDF). United Nations Office on drugs and crime division for policy analysis and public affairs. pp. 13–15. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2006. Retrieved 2012-05-06. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |archivedate= (help)
  14. ^ Homicide statistics, Trends (2003–2008) UNODC. Retrieved on 5 May 2012.
  15. ^ "Azerbaijan decides Europe's energy security". United Press International. Retrieved July 6, 2013. A decade ago it would have been unthinkable that Baku would be dictating the terms of European energy security but in a fast-changing global energy landscape, yesterday's small actors are increasingly today's dynamic players and possibly tomorrow's major decision-makers.
  16. ^ "Azerbaijani official: Lifting Section 907 would boost ties with U.S." AZERNEWS. Retrieved July 5, 2013. Who could imagine 25 years ago that Azerbaijan would become a non-permanent member of the UN Security Council, Azerbaijani and US soldiers would serve shoulder to shoulder in Afghanistan and Azerbaijan would provide the energy security of Europe?—Richard Morningstar
  17. ^ a b "The List of Azerbaijani Embassies, Missions, and Consulates Abroad" (PDF). Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Azerbaijan. Retrieved July 5, 2013. Template:Az icon
  18. ^ a b "Government:: Azerbaijan". CIA. Retrieved July 5, 2013.
  19. ^ Cornell, Svante E. (2010). Azerbaijan Since Independence. M.E. Sharpe. pp. 165, 284. Indicative of general regional trends and a natural reemergence of previously oppressed religious identity, an increasingly popular ideological basis for the pursuit of political objectives has been Islam.... The government, for its part, has shown an official commitment to Islam by building mosques and respecting Islamic values... Unofficial Islamic groups sought to use aspects of Islam to mobilize the population and establish the foundations for a future political struggle.... Unlike Turkey, Azerbaijan does not have the powerful ideological legacy of secularism... the conflict with Armenia has bred frustration that is increasingly being answered by a combined Islamic and nationalist sentiment, especially among younger people... All major political forces are committed to secularism and are based, if anything, on a nationalist agenda.
  20. ^ Azerbaijan may be considered to be in Asia and/or Europe. The United Nations classification of world regions places Azerbaijan in Western Asia. Conversely, the BBC,Collegiate Dictionary, and Worldatlas.com place Azerbaijan in Europe.
  21. ^ "Azerbaijan decides Europe's energy security". United Press International. Retrieved July 6, 2013. [...] Azerbaijan is accordingly to Zb.Brzeziznski, former US National Security Adviser under J.Carter administration one of the most significant "geopolitical pivots" of Eurasia. Due to its geography, Azerbaijan has a "sensitive location" that presents itself as a "defensive shield" for the Caspian Sea : it opens or blocks the access to many significant extra-regional actors, oil and gas thirsty. Baku has a pair of keys to the rich energetic Caspian Sea region whose place in the global geopolitics of energy is increasing proportionally to the degree of instability in the Middle East.
  22. ^ "Geopolitical Journey: Azerbaijan and America". Stratfor. Retrieved July 6, 2013. There is a point where three great powers -- Russia, Turkey and Persia -- meet: the Caucasus. At the moment they converge in a country called Azerbaijan. That fact makes Azerbaijan a battleground for these three great powers, which have competed with each other along various borders for centuries.
  23. ^ Pipes, Richard (1997). The Formation of the Soviet Union: Communism and Nationalism 1917–1923 (2nd ed.). Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press. pp. 218–220, 229. ISBN 978-0-674-30951-7.
  24. ^ Thomas De Waal. Black Garden: Armenia And Azerbaijan Through Peace and War. New York: New York University Press, p. 240. ISBN 978-0-8147-1945-9.
  25. ^ "Tackling Azerbaijan's IDP Burden". International Crisis Group. Retrieved July 1, 2013.
  26. ^ "Education in Azerbaijan" (PDF). UNICEF.
  27. ^ "Human Development Index and its components" (PDF). United Nations Development Programme.
  28. ^ "Interactive Infographic of the World's Best Countries". Newsweek. 15 August 2010. Archived from the original on 22 July 2011. Retrieved 24 July 2011. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  29. ^ rate among schoolchildren in Azerbaijan is 100% – UN report –News.Az–Published 28 October 2011.
  30. ^ "Employment statistics in Azerbaijan". The State Statistical Committee of the Republic of Azerbaijan. Retrieved 2007-05-26.
  31. ^ "Seventh United Nations survey of crime trends and operations of criminal justice systems, covering the period 1998 – 2000" (PDF). United Nations Office on drugs and crime division for policy analysis and public affairs. pp. 13–15. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2006. Retrieved 2012-05-06. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |archivedate= (help)
  32. ^ statistics, Trends (2003–2008) UNODC. Retrieved on 5 May 2012.
  33. ^ "Azerbaijan decides Europe's energy security". United Press International. Retrieved July 6, 2013. A decade ago it would have been unthinkable that Baku would be dictating the terms of European energy security but in a fast-changing global energy landscape, yesterday's small actors are increasingly today's dynamic players and possibly tomorrow's major decision-makers.
  34. ^ "Azerbaijani official: Lifting Section 907 would boost ties with U.S." AZERNEWS. Retrieved July 5, 2013. Who could imagine 25 years ago that Azerbaijan would become a non-permanent member of the UN Security Council, Azerbaijani and US soldiers would serve shoulder to shoulder in Afghanistan and Azerbaijan would provide the energy security of Europe?—Richard Morningstar
  35. ^ Cornell, Svante E. (2010). Azerbaijan Since Independence. M.E. Sharpe. pp. 165, 284. Indicative of general regional trends and a natural reemergence of previously oppressed religious identity, an increasingly popular ideological basis for the pursuit of political objectives has been Islam.... The government, for its part, has shown an official commitment to Islam by building mosques and respecting Islamic values... Unofficial Islamic groups sought to use aspects of Islam to mobilize the population and establish the foundations for a future political struggle.... Unlike Turkey, Azerbaijan does not have the powerful ideological legacy of secularism... the conflict with Armenia has bred frustration that is increasingly being answered by a combined Islamic and nationalist sentiment, especially among younger people... All major political forces are committed to secularism and are based, if anything, on a nationalist agenda.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Azerbaijan&oldid=597429697"