Talk:Black people and temple and priesthood policies in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

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Merge

the two pages seem to cover the same information. So either we need to make clear what each page is for or merge them. Miiohau (talk) 08:45, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, much of the information is duplicated. If the pages are merged, it would be nice to keep the "doctrine" of the day separate from statements from leaders that weren't doctrine. It's difficult to separate those, though... Would the new page be "Black people in Mormonism" and have a section on Black People in Mormon Doctrine? I'm a little worried that the page will be too long if all the information is merged--it might be better to have a summary section in the Black People and Mormonism page that directs to Black People in Mormon Doctrine. What are your thoughts? Here are some other users who have worked on either page and might wish to comment: @FreePeoples, Good Olfactory, Johnpacklambert, COGDEN, Bahooka, and Jburlinson: Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 16:38, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think part of the problem is what constitutes Mormon "doctrine". When a Mormon prophet says "thus saith the Lord", other prophets can later say he was only expressing his opinion. Even scriptures could be downgraded to stories or symbolism (like 6 days really means 6 creative periods, and not actual days.) Even if we as wiki editors were to somehow come to a consensus on what constitutes Mormon doctrine, new editors will invariably stumble upon the same pit falls. It may be better to avoid trying to split it along doctrinal/non-doctrinal lines. Right now it seems that Black people in Mormon doctrine focuses mostly on the priesthood ban, while Black people and Mormonism incorporates several aspects of the interaction between the LDS church and black people. I think the priesthood ban is big enough to warrant its own article. I propose we rename Black people in Mormon doctrine to something like Mormon priesthood ban, which could also incorporate information about women and the priesthood. I propose we have Black people and Mormonism be the main article that summarizes everything about the LDS church and black people, and then add supporting articles like Black people and early Mormonism, Mormonism and slavery, Mormon priesthood ban and Black Mormons. I am working on Mormonism and slavery offline and I think breaking that article out will keep the main article from getting too long. FreePeoples (talk) 18:10, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I have tried to incorporate the information contained in the "Race and the Priesthood" Essay into the Black people in Mormon doctrine article. This subject needs to be covered in a way that reflects current theological teaching. Strong statements by Jeffrey R. Holland and Dallin H. Oaks on the matter are probably also needed in the article. There is a place for a consideration of history, but with the articles current name it needs to start with a consideration of the reality of what the doctrine is at present.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:42, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • What about splitting out History of Mormon Priesthood ban or History of Priesthood (LDS Church)? That way, this article can focus on the current status and the history stuff can be covered in the supporting article. That would emphasize that the priesthood ban was historical, and not today. (Though I am still confused about the modern interpretation of the Book of Abraham.) It could also be linked from other articles such as Priesthood (LDS Church) which should have similar information. FreePeoples (talk) 21:28, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • I just noticed that there is a redirect called Blacks and the Priesthood (LDS). Maybe we should just redirect this page there (so no merge needed) and only keep the stuff about the priesthood, and then summarize the priesthood stuff on the Black people and Mormonism page and redirect. FreePeoples (talk) 17:33, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • I like this idea. If you changed this page to Blacks and the Priesthood (LDS), would the page look pretty much the same, or would the information about the curse of Cain and such be moved to the more general page? The attitudes of the leaders about race may have influenced their continual denial of the priesthood to Blacks (so it might make sense to keep a lot of the information here). Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 20:40, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
          • The way I envision it (there is no controlling wiki editors) is that Blacks and the Priesthood (LDS) would look a lot like this page. We would probably take out slavery, and darkness associated with sin, since while that is related to doctrine, it isn't specific to the priesthood. We could probably summarize related concepts and link it to Black people and Mormonism. The big change is that we would summarize all of the priesthood information in Black people and Mormonism and then link it to the Black people and the Priesthood (LDS) page. I also think it would be more intuitive so that new editors will better understand where new information goes. FreePeoples (talk) 22:57, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Considering the LDS priesthood restrictions on women and those of African descent in the same article is a horrible idea that shows a failure to understand the situation for either. To understand LDS doctrine one must realize that the most sacred ordinances occur in the temple. Thus despite some outward rhetoric what matters most is not holding priesthood office but being able to go to the temple. In the case of those of African descent before 1978 after about 1850 there were very few cases in which they could enter the temple, by either men or women. On the other hand, women have had full access to the temple since the 1840s and some of the ordinances of the temple are administered by women.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:46, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, that certainly is not clear from reading this article. A wiki article is supposed to be geared towards those who do not understand the situation. I think an article explaining who could use the priesthood and when they can use it would help clarify the situation. There is no mention of the situation of women being different than blacks because non-black women could administer some of the ordinances in the temple. The Priesthood (LDS Church) article isn't much help either. It says "The Aaronic priesthood is conferred upon male church members beginning at age twelve by the laying on of hands by men who hold either an office in the Melchizedek priesthood or the office of priest in the Aaronic priesthood." No mention of women using the priesthood in the temples. If the situation with women is different than with blacks than that should be clear, at least somewhere. Maybe it is more appropriate for the Priesthood (LDS Church) article, which doesn't really give any information about the history. FreePeoples (talk) 21:28, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Johnpacklambert's comment above is not entirely accurate. Black women did not have "full access to the temple since the 1840s". Even if a black woman could enter a temple and receive the endowment, she could not receive the highest ordinance of the temple – sealing or celestial marriage – if her husband was black, because a man had to hold the priesthood to participate in that ordinance. So while technically the church could say that nothing was being withheld from black women, in the vast majority of cases black women were married to black men, so the highest ordinances were being withheld from black women. Also, the concept of women using the priesthood in the temples is controversial and not clear cut because it is not often spoken of by church leaders or set out clearly in church teachings. Good Ol’factory (talk) 09:49, 29 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Proposal - I propose we move Black people in Mormon doctrine to Black people and the Priesthood (LDS). I propose we modify this article to just talk about the priesthood, with a small summary of related issues pointing to Black people and Mormonism for more details. I further propose we summarize the information on the priesthood on the Black people and Mormonism page, with a link to Black people and the Priesthood (LDS) for more information. This would greatly reduce the overlap of information and hopefully be an easier distinction to understand. I had mentioned this in the comments, but I wanted to make an official proposal. Please vote on the proposal. FreePeoples (talk) 19:08, 1 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that there is too much overlap between the two articles as they now stand, but I think that "Black people and the Priesthood (LDS)" has too narrow of a focus. There was also an endowment and marriage sealing ban, and there was also the closely related practice, in at least one (and maybe only one) case, of sealing black people to white people as their servants (see Jane Elizabeth Manning James). Therefore, I would favor something that more broadly included Mormon rituals in general. I would be tempted to call it "Black people and Mormon ordinances", but Mormons use the term ordinance in a somewhat archaic sense that most readers other than Baptists would not understand. Maybe "ceremonies" or "rituals"? This article would still have to at least briefly summarize the historical doctrinal context of these bans, but could leave the doctrinal details to the main article. COGDEN 21:20, 2 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Would temple ordinances and sealings be extensions of the priesthood, specifically the new and everlasting covenant of the priesthood? I think when people talk about the ban, they usually refer to it as the priesthood can. The LDS church's article is called Race and the Priesthood, even though it talks about the temple and sealings. I agree that calling it the priesthood can seem a bit misleading, because you usually don't think about women entering into the new everlasting covenant of the priesthood as being part of the priesthood, or even about receiving blessings and sealings for that matter. You usually think about ordination to the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood, but the priesthood is much more than that. Confusion aside, it is standard practice to have the title be how it is commonly referred, even if it is technically inaccurate, (See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use common name)) which is why people look up Mexico instead of the more accurate United Mexican States. Most people refer to it as the Priesthood ban, even though it involved aspects other than priesthood ordination. We should make it clear in the introduction that it included several aspects. FreePeoples (talk) 22:36, 2 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that someone typing in "Blacks priesthood Mormons" should reach the page. I also agree that the page should cover more than just the priesthood ban. I like FreePeoples's proposal so far... but Cogden, do you still prefer Black people and Mormon ceremonies? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 18:54, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Before any action is taken to merge or re-title these articles, it is necessary to address the serious, perhaps fatal, issues plaguing this article and the "Black people in Mormonism" article, both of which have numerous tags which have not been addressed for years. The most significant problems relate to use of religious texts as sources, over-reliance on primary sources associated with the LDS church, and original research. There is also an article titled "Black people and early Mormonism" that covers the same subject matter and suffers from the same defects. --Jburlinson (talk) 21:06, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I didn't respond earlier. I don't want to stand in the way of any revisionary work going on here. I think it's moving in a positive direction overall. COGDEN 22:40, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Proposal - I propose that "Black people in Mormon doctrine" be withdrawn entirely, due to its almost total reliance on questionable source material. It is basically a summary of positions held by the LDS church, sourced nearly entirely by LDS primary materials. As such, it constitutes original research under Wikipedia policy. In addition, the content provided by the article is nearly duplicated by other articles that utilize at least some appropriate reliable sources. --Jburlinson (talk) 21:34, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I think deleting the page entirely is a bit extreme. I agree that the page needs more contextualization and neutral sources. There are some places on the page that refer to scriptures for their sources, and I believe it would be preferable to link to commentary on the scriptures. There are also sections that are well-researched and represent issues well. If the page were deleted, would you move some of its information to Black people and early Mormonism? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 22:23, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure which sections you're referring to. They may be "well researched", but Wikipedia is not a forum to publish original research. This is a major part of the problem with these articles. Combing through LDS scripture and primary materials constitutes original research -- which is contraindicated by WP policy. What unduplicated material of substance is contained in this article that should be brought forward? As to the article on Black people and early Mormonism, it is even more troubled by problems with inappropriate sources than this article is, with long sections actually quoting passages from Mormon scripture. There is almost a cottage industry in writing articles about black people and the Mormon church, including an article on "Black Mormons" and an article on "1978 Revelation on Priesthood", both of which suffer from the same problems. In my opinion, there should be a thoroughgoing reconsideration of all of these various articles, with the goal of reducing their sheer number and improving the quality of sourcing. What do you think? --Jburlinson (talk) 01:10, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with you and I think we need to come to a consensus about how to make further edits; a page entitled Black people in Mormon doctrine sort of welcomes the sort of primary research we want to avoid. Do you think we should delete this article and keep the others? Which article should we concentrate on improving first? FreePeoples, I know you've been working on this and similar topics--what do you think of Jburlinson's proposal? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 18:47, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I wanted to comment more specifically on the problem of quoting primary sources. I think that any page about this topic is going to have to quote LDS scriptures and prophets at some point. Ten Commandments in Catholic theology is an FA that deals with a similar problem. For every verse it discusses, it uses the discussion of Catholic commentators to support the discussion. However, sometimes the commentator is the pope, as in the section on the third commandment (which I think is similar to our problem of how to quote prophets). This is an FA, so it seems like it's acceptable to quote prophets when discussing their interpretation of scriptures. Would you agree, Jburlinson? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:05, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree that the article on the 10 commandments and Catholicism would be a good model; it's clear from the discussion of the FA review that the editors made a strong good faith effort to offer a balanced view from protestant and catholic theologians, that reliable secondary sources predominate and that the references to scripture were illustrative in nature and not intended to "preach" dogma. To be more specific in my proposal regarding WP articles on black people and Mormonism -- I'd recommend that all of the following be consolidated into a single article: Black people and Mormonism, Black people in Mormon doctrine, 1978 Revelation on Priesthood, Black people and early Mormonism, Black Mormons. and Mormonism and slavery. All of these articles cover much the same territory and all suffer from the same pervasive problems with sourcing and original research. The historical and doctrinal situation as regards the LDS church and black people is treated in a number of reliable secondary sources published by scholarly presses and written by mormons and non-mormons alike, including Richard and Claudia Bushman, Newell Bringhurst, Armand Mauss, John G. Turner, and Gregory Prince. There are others, of course. Such an effort might work best if done in a coordinated fashion by a team of editors who would be willing to work together under the wikipedia guidelines. I, for one, would be happy to take part in such an effort. Thoughts? --Jburlinson (talk) 04:26, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I'm happy to help with such an effort. Mormonism and slavery seems like it should have its own page, and it could use more secondary sources as well. We're wrapping things up for the semester break here, so I'll be on wikibreak until January, but I'm planning to help out then. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 16:50, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    That's great. Thanks. I'll take some time to go over these articles more thoroughly and perhaps come up with an outline of what a consolidated article might look like. The general contour of the Black people and Mormonism article might be a starting point, with an effort made to winnow out the duplication, redundancy and questionable sourcing. Does that sound OK for a plan? January sounds like a good time to make a resolution to address the longstanding issues that have been troubling these articles. Have a happy holiday season! --Jburlinson (talk) 21:51, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I think that we should focus on Black people and Mormonism. Once we get that cleaned up, we will have a better idea of the size of the cleaned up version and what sub-topics actually warrant a supporting article or not. At that point, we can decide whether to clean up the supporting articles, move the relevant information into Black people and Mormonism, or completely reorganize it. I personally think there is enough information to warrant multiple articles, but I think the current separation is a vague and repetitive. However, I don't think we should delete any pages until we have a chance to clean it up. I agree with Rachel that Mormonism and slavery deserves a separate article. I also think there should be a page that specifically talks about the priesthood ban, however we want to name it. FreePeoples (talk) 20:24, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm perfectly OK with starting with Black people and Mormonism. I'm willing to hold off on the others until that article is up to snuff. It's my belief that if that article is covered satisfactorily, there will be no particular need for "black people in mormon doctrine", "black mormons" or an article on the priesthood ban. What more need be said about that subject if it is covered accurately in Black people and Mormonism? The only other thing that's salient about priesthood bans is the ban on women holding the priesthood, which is addressed in Mormonism and women, although that article too has more than its share of problematic issues. If there is agreement on starting first with the article on Black people and Mormonism, what should the next step be? My suggestion would be to work from that article's talk page; there's already a "merge" topic there that basically refers interested editors to this talk page. However, if we're going to revise that article, it should probably be done on the other talk page, in order to ensure that the largest number of interested editors are able to contribute. --Jburlinson (talk) 00:04, 21 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Race and the priesthood, Jeffrey R. Holland and Dallin H. Oaks quotes

This article seems to need to beter incorporate the Official LDS essay "race and the priesthood".John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:20, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Do you know the modern interpretation of Abraham 1:27? While the essay unequivocally condemns all racism, Mormon scripture supports the idea that people of a certain lineage could not have the priesthood. While there is room to argue whether Pharaoh was black, he was certainly denied because of his race, whatever it might be. So you have the essay saying one thing and the scriptures saying another thing, even calling certain races "chosen". Which is a better reflection of Mormon doctrine? To me, it seems that the essays simply show their opinion, just like Young's statements were his opinion, while the scriptures are better indication of doctrine. FreePeoples (talk) 21:39, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The LDS church isn't a neutral source in itself either, so citing a neutral third party (difficult with Mormon issues!), in addition to stating the current "official" position would be ideal, in my opinion. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 16:54, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree on the need to base these articles on neutral sources, but I don't think it's so difficult to identify these sources. There has been a great deal written on this subject by credentialed historians and other scholars, both Mormon and gentile, and issued by reputable scholarly publishers. Even statements of the "official" position could be sourced to reliable news media and not reliant on pronouncements by the Church itself. This article, and the other related articles, would be considerably shorter than they are now, without the extended quotations of passages from primary texts; but that would only be to the good, IMO. --Jburlinson (talk) 21:14, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I recently checked out several books on the subject that seem fairly neutral, and I'm hoping to have one of my students start editing pages soon. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 22:27, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds great. That would be a big step forward in the treatment of this subject. Thanks. --Jburlinson (talk) 23:58, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

White supremacy and Mormonism

Where is it heading and should we forget it's historical background. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba.olatunde (talk • contribs) 16:01, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Could you clarify? I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. Thanks. Phelps (BYU) (talk) 19:29, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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