Talk:Jan Grabowski

The page should be edited

Samsonowska - continuation

Wiez has published a text by Grabowski and further one by Samsonowska. [1] Xx236 (talk) 14:17, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Strange proportions

About 50% of the page describe his book The Hunt..., a subject of separate page. His other works aren't described in details.

Grabowski is a historian of Canada, of Poland and a propaganda writer/speaker. The three roles should be described here. Xx236 (talk) 14:25, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

The page is biased, it describes Grabowski as a historian of Poland only. His media/propaganda activities (200 000) should be isolated from his academic works. Grabowski is also a historian of Canada.Xx236 (talk) 09:30, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the length of the section of "The Hunt" and therefore trimmed the reception section. (I disagree with the assertions above - e.g. the 200,000 estimate is published scholarship). Icewhiz (talk) 05:42, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

That's not what Xx236 was writing about. He is fairly active on political views too, and this section should be expanded, rather than removing criticism of his highly controversial book.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 10:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Haaretz and the Center

Haaretz is an Isareli newspaper. How is it a reliable source regarding the Warsaw Center?

I'm unable to find anything about the Center in the Haaretz article.I'll remove the misquote. Xx236 (talk) 08:59, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Haaretz is about Grabowski's expertise. Haaretz is a top notch publication - a paper of record - and is definitely reliable for assertions on Grabowski's expertise. It is also reliable regarding Holocaust research - a topic it covers quite a bit (throughout Europe and elsewhere). Icewhiz (talk) 11:07, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Polish-Canadian professor of history at the University of Ottawa

What is Polish-Canadian professor of history? Are there such positions at Ottawa?Xx236 (talk) 09:07, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

200 000 repeated

The fake news 200 000 is mentioned twice in different places. Please unify or remove one instance.Xx236 (talk) 09:16, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

It's an estimate by the subject of the article - a quite notable estimate - there's nothing fake about Grabowski making and publishing this estimate (with others).Icewhiz (talk) 11:08, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Grabowski denies, now you admits he says it. It's difficult to lie, because sometimes one is catched.

It's not an estimate, it's a fake news pointing Datner.

The information is still in two places. Please remove one.Xx236 (talk) 11:45, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree, Icewhiz-Grabowski has since withrdawn from claiming the figure 200,000 is correct and this should be noted in the article.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 10:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Are false statements acceptable in this Wikipedia?

The statement There are no Polish bystanders in the Holocaust - is obviously false. Polish babies were bystanders.

Nazi language

Who were the Polish? Grabowski's father was Polish, does it make him a non-bystander? The Germans defined him as Jewish, do we accept Nazi German POV? If we accept Nazi language, it means that this Wikipedia is Nazi.Xx236 (talk) 09:23, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Polish Blue Police

Polish Blue Police is an example of biased language typical for Grabowski. The police was German, the Germans dissolved the Polish state police in 1939 and created Polnische Polizei subordinated to local German SS and police commanders. In several Western countries their police was preserved after the surrender. Polnische Polizei is Nazi language, like Endlösung der Judenfrage or Jüdischer Wohnbezirk.Xx236 (talk) 09:36, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Night Continues: the Fates of Jews in Selected Counties of Occupied Poland

The book exists in Polish only, does the context explain that the English title is a translation?

The book contains many errors and manipulations, so yes, let's offer them to Polish schools to learn how to read between the lines.Xx236 (talk) 09:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Please avoid making unfounded assertions on this generally well regarded piece of scholarship. I added the Polish name in parenthetical. Icewhiz (talk) 11:10, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Please avoid attacking me. It's a Wikipedia, not a battle place.

There are at least 5 reviews pointing errors in the book and the center will answer in the future. When they answer, you will be able to repeat your story about scholarship, now stop.Xx236 (talk) 11:49, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Reception of the book

I find the level of detail here excessive since there's a separate article on the book: diff. This needs to be summarised better. --K.e.coffman (talk) 14:43, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes. And less cherry picked - e.g. almost all English and German language reviews have been somewhere between mildly positive to glowing. The length here is excessive.Icewhiz (talk) 15:27, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Historical views aren't based on ethnicity or language Icewhiz.I don't see much value in pinpointing ethnic background of reviews.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:19, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

I haven't related to ethnicity. The Polish reviews mainly relate to the Polish version of the book - an earlier and different work (which had a more limited audience). The English reviews are (mostly) on the later English language book (larger audience, also won a significant prize). Some of the English reviews are by quite notable academics and are in top quality journals (which, as English has become lingua franca of science, tends to also be the top publications worldwide). We also have WP:NOENG which has us preferring English sources. The current selection of reviews is both overly long, and does not represent the reception of this work. For the reception and internal debate we have English sources relating to the debate in Poland - and we could stick to those English language sources.Icewhiz (talk) 23:05, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

I see absolutely no reason why reviews in Poland which is the subject of the book should be excluded, in fact this is quite a shocking proposal, considering that many are by highly renown scholars, academics and historians. As per WP:NOENG: Citations to non-English reliable sources are allowed on the English Wikipedia. However, because this project is in English, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance. Since most of the reviews from Poland present aspects not covered in English based sources presented here, removing them you would disturb the NPOV --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:13, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Available sources in Polish are of higher quality and greater relevance - there is no need for lower quality English sources that often contain errors and wrong information. Furthermore, most of the Polish reviews are written by experts on the subject - and incorporate nuances and aspects not found in English sources.Removing Polish based sources would constitute severe breach of NPOV and limit geographical coverage of the subject.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:42, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: I removed the discourse that belongs in the article on the book; preserving here by providing this link. The level of detail is excessive, including details about calorie intake, 38 vs 90 Jews, etc. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:55, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

I added a {{Further}} link to the section with detailed reviews in the article on the book: diff. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:00, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

I disagree with your edit and I struggle to understand why deem as appropriate to remove all Polish sources and leaving only German and English ones.Especially important parts about false claims by Grabowski regarding Datner have been removed.I can understand trimming certain parts to make it more readible, but removing ad hoc all Polish sources seems not not only excessive but also POVish.It also severely undermines the quality of the article as they were written by top notch academicians and scholars--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:19, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not looking at this in terms of "Polish" or "English" sources, although I do note that Musial is "German-Polish". I also reduced the "English" source: diff. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:33, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

m not looking at this in terms of "Polish" Then why have you removed all of them? As a gesture of goodwill, could you restore them and I will trimm some of the information while leaving the essential stuff? Then you could see if you want to remove some more. The current removal really looks POV--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:36, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Could someone please complete this damaged sentence: "According to Bogdan Musial, a German-Polish historian writing in 2011, Hunt for the Jews failed to examine material that contradicted Grabowski's thesis, including Polish witness statements, German statements, and archives from the Polish resistance that."

I concur with MyMoloboaccount's above suggestion, in the interest of securing a neutral point of view in this article.

Thanks.

Nihil novi (talk) 08:24, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

There is no need for Polish language sourcing, as top-tier English language sources already address views in Poland. For instance, William W. Hagen in the Holocaust and Genocide Studies journal writes in 2018:

1. "Right-wing journalism in today’s Poland has harshly attacked Grabowski, charging that he aids Nazi-apologists in Germany by allegedly suggesting that the Holocaust was a joint German Polish enterprise. In response, Grabowski in 2016 won a libel suit against the nationalist-Catholic antisemitic website Fronda. His voice remains influential in current debates on the controversial amendment to the law governing the state-administered Institute of National Remembrance (IPN), which in February 2018 criminalized on pain of three years’ imprisonment allegations that “the Polish Nation or Polish State” participated in the Holocaust.
2. "Widespread cooperation in capturing Jews is not reducible to German coercion.... If it were, Polish nationalist objections to historians’ exposure of Polish Christian Holocaust complicity would be less vehement than those evidenced in rebuttals, both scholarly and journalistic, to Jan Gross’s explosive arguments in Neighbors (2001; Polish 2000) and subsequent writings, as well as to Grabowski’s own analysis as set forth in the 2011 Polish-language version of Hunt for the Jews."
3. "As in pre-Holocaust explanations for the incontrovertible existence of aggressive, violent, and criminal antisemites in Poland, so still today historians convinced of a fundamental national innocence identify murderers and collaborators as “scum” such as, regrettably, any society inevitably harbors. But that Poles—in Grabowski’s study, Polish villagers in Da˛browa Tarnowska county in former Galicia—should view protection of their Jewish neighbors from Nazi murder as sin and crime challenges national self-understanding in ways highly threatening for many Poles."

[2] Should amply represent the stance in Some Polish circles from a top-tier WP:SECONDARY source - you can't get higher quality than Hagen in Holocaust and Genocide Studies - which is far superior quality wise to other sources here and should be preferred per WP:NOENG. Icewhiz (talk) 13:54, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Poor Profesor Musiał, it seems that Hagen doesn't accrept his reasearch. Does however Musiał accept Hagen?

Hagen doesn't have any idea about the subject. There was no Da˛browa Tarnowska county during the war. Xx236 (talk) 07:56, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Adding him wouldn't balance the article, we already have English based reviews.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

I concur, that's why I created the article for the book. Let's keep reviews, controversies, and such there, and limit the content here to a short summary. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:21, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Revised 200,000?

This is sourced to a March 2018 media source in Poland, which due to the Holocaust law being in force at the time can not be considered reliable for Holocaust reporting (criminal culpability for "insulting the Polish nation" in regards to Holocaust complicity). That being said, subsequent sources in English continue to refer to the 200,000 - [3][4], as well as a direct quote from Grabowski from Nov 2018: "From among the approximately 250,000 Polish Jews who had escaped liquidations of the ghettos and who had fled, about 40,000 survived. We have thus more than 200,000 Jews who fled the liquidations and who did not survive until liberation. My findings show that in the overwhelming majority of cases, their Polish co-citizens were – directly through murder, or indirectly by denunciation – at the root of their deaths." UNIVERSITY OF OTTAWA HOLOCAUST HISTORIAN SUES POLISH GROUP FOR LIBEL, CJN, 22 November 2018. @MyMoloboaccount: - per WP:NOENG, please provide quotations + translations of said quotations (and if possible - a URL as well) for these two edits: [5][6]. Per later English RS sourcing (esp. the Nov 2018 quote of Grabowski himself) - the claim of retraction seems somewhat dubious. Icewhiz (talk) 13:27, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

That Grabowski contradicts himself in interviews is noted in some sources, I will gladly add them.If you believe media in Poland are in general unreliable, feel free to start an Wikipedia wide policy on the subject, as it was advised you many times before.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

WP:ONUS on you to establish reliability in face of Poland criminalizing certain types of expression. Regardless of that per WP:NOENG - please provide quotations in Polish and translations to English of said quotations supporting your insertion to the article (which are present - seems to contradict later sources). Icewhiz (talk) 15:07, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

The 2018 Amendment to Poland's Act on the Institute of National Remembrance explicitly exempts, from prosecution, "research, discussion of history, or artistic activity." The argument that all research conducted in Poland is automatically suspect is specious, and is a red herring meant to prevent consideration of research conducted in Poland that is not to the liking of some parties outside Poland.

Nihil novi (talk) 00:58, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Most Holocaust researchers say this affects research. Furthermore media reports (the source here), are not exempt from the law.Icewhiz (talk) 05:04, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Name one example od the affecting. The story is a political tool to attack Poland in general and the currient government. As far many pieces of the reasearch contain fabricated numbers and manipulated quotes. Xx236 (talk) 07:49, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

MyMoloboaccount - the quotation you added does not support any revision by Grabowski, merely that when he spoke with Gazeta Wyborcza he was non-commital whether majority was 60 percent or 90 percent. It would seem that per the CJN quote from Nov 2018 he stands behind "overwhelming majority". Icewhiz (talk) 15:41, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

My findings show - the findings in "Hunt for the Jews" and "Dalej jest noc" are unreliable. In the "hunt" Grabowski underestimates the number of survivors and the number of helpers (including the number of the Righteous, which is a mastership). His findings in the recent book aren't explained. Academic data have to be verifiable. Neither his detailed findings nor the 200 000 fabrication aren't verifiable. He says - I'm the grat academician, you have to believe me. It's not academy, it's a cult. Xx236 (talk) 08:25, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Grabowski's different versions of the numbers, and fact that he admits they are just hypothesis that likely is going to be contradicted by other scholars is simply far too important to be removed.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:35, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Researchers make hypotheses and estimates. What you inserted is WP:OR not in the interview. Furthermore - if this important - where is the SECONDQRY coverage of this in English? Grabowski is fairly widely covered - this has not been picked up by any mainstream reporting as significant.Icewhiz (talk) 04:42, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

That may show the biases and slipshodness of some renowned scholars and mainstream publications outside Poland.

Nihil novi (talk) 05:02, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

fringe far right organization

• Sources, please regarding "fringe far right organization".
• Both sides of the case should be described, not "goog Grabowski" against "evil right".
• Mathematics isn't "left" or "right". If Grabowski formulates fringe theories using false numbers, he is "fringe", not his opponents.Xx236 (talk) 08:07, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

  Grabowski is an accepted mainstream (as it is defined in most of the world) Holocaust scholar. As for the league - per Minkner, Kamil. "Polish contemporary art to the anti-semitism of Poles and its political significance." Review of Nationalities 6.1 (2016): 195-221. it is one of the "full-of-fears fundamentalist" organizations that fought against the Oscar winning Ida (film) - a "right-wing organization" that makes various public petitions.Icewhiz (talk) 08:46, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Many Jewish organisatiojns do exactly the same. But they are reliable, beacase they aren't Polish.

"Ida" is ahistorical, so many Polish people can see rewriting of history rather than a piece of art. As far noone dared to rewrite the history of the Holocaust the way Polish history is rewritten. Even a realistic film about Litzmannstadt ghetto would be impossible.Xx236 (talk) 09:39, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

A Jewish historian is against "Ida". https://natemat.pl/80843,ida-pelna-antysemickich-stereotypow Xx236 (talk) 09:42, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

That's a blog - not a reliable source. And Ida is off-topic here - I brought a source for the league (Ida was incidentally one of the prior kerfuffles that elicited commentary on the league). Icewhiz (talk) 09:58, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

First you mention "Ida", next the subject is off topic. Please don't open problems you don't know. Helena Datner has criticised Ida in Gazeta Wyborcza and Krytyka Polityczna, so you unreliable blog doesn't work.Xx236 (talk) 13:26, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

"Right wing organization" (which they arguably are) is not the same as "far right organization". Regardless, unless something comes out of the lawsuit, the info is WP:UNDUE overall.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:56, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Grabowski has been accused by several historians of manipulating numbers and quotations. His moral blackmail makes any discussion difficult. https://www.wiez.pl/czasopismo/;s,czasopismo_szczegoly,id,563,art,15550 Xx236 (talk) 13:22, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Dąbrowa Tarnowska County

I have removed false link. Please verify what do you link.

I have added alleged because there was no such German county. The real power was the Kreishauptmannschaft Tarnow.Xx236 (talk) 08:45, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Are Grabowski's opinions notable?

Anyone biographied on Wikipedia has thousands of opinions about food, beverages, President Trump, and climate. We select only notable opinions. Grabowski isn't competent to criticize the Polish government. It is obviously democratic; it was elected and is still supported by many, compared, e.g., to Mr. Macron, who is unpopular in France. This hate speech is typical of Grabowski. He is described here as a historian, not as a Kardashian, so his media excesses aren't notable. This biography, however, ignores many aspects of his work. Xx236 (talk) 08:33, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Please strike the un-sourced assertion above. Hard to argue a BLP's position are undue on a BLP's own bio page - particularly when said positions are widely covered and discussed by reliable sources. Icewhiz (talk) 08:41, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I;m sorry, but you totally ignore my logical position and claim that trash is notable, which is absurd. The world doesn't care what Grabowski thinks about Kaczynski. Grabowski is an alleged historian, not a politician, Kaczynski is a politician. Similarly Kaczynski's or Morawiecki's opinions about Grabowski or about the Holocaust don't deserve to be remebered. If someone quotes Grabowski as a source about democracy in Poland, so he is an idiot. It's simple - the government doens't like Grabowski, so it's undemocratic, fascist. If th enext government will distinguish Grabowski - the government will be democratic and progressive. It's a world of children in a sandbox, not of adult people. Protests agisnts the government have been sighned by hundreds of professors. Wiil you include such fact in hundreds of BLPs? In 10 years noone will care about 2016 government of Poland. Summarizing - you hate Poland and Polish people so you collect any filth to throw on Poland. Xx236 (talk) 11:30, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

It's more than just WP:BLP: Academics are expected to apply their studies to policy questions, and would abdicate their responsibility if they didn't. As a major scholar in his field, Grabowski's opinion is WP:DUE not only in his bio, but on related articles as well, like those on commemoration and historiography of the Holocaust. François Robere (talk) 12:03, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

If a Pole criticizes a Jew or Israel, it's antisemitism, and musn't be published. If Poland is criticized in a childish way, it's notable, and academic. Xx236 (talk) 11:40, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Nihil novi, can you say why you're editing someone else's posts? [7] SarahSV ^(talk) 03:56, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

At the request of that person, who cited his imperfect command of the English language.

Thank you. Nihil novi (talk) 04:30, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Nihil novi, thanks for explaining. In future, please don't edit posts once someone has responded, and if you have to for some reason, please note after the original signature that you've edited it. See WP:REDACT. SarahSV ^(talk) 04:39, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Nihil novi, where was this request made? The one on your TP is a week old and refers to the article itself.Icewhiz (talk) 04:43, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Xx236's self-described "obvious errors" have continued in the five days since he made the request. I am willing to occasionally burnish his English, as I sometimes do yours in articles.

Thanks. Nihil novi (talk) 06:55, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

SarahSV - This page is to discuss Jan Grabowski (historian), not my poor English. I would be happy to only read this Wikipedia, but I don't accept errors and bias, so I have to protest, compare eg. the definition of The Holocaust.Xx236 (talk) 08:02, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

I asked anyone for help regarding my English already two years ago. I have thanked Nihil Novi at least twice for his corrections.Xx236 (talk) 08:24, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Not The Dark Ages but dark years

Dear English experts, Haaretz wrote "dark years", but it didn't explain the phrase, please don't manipulate. [8].

The interview is one year old. Poland and Israel have later signed an agreement and no serious research confirmed the alleged anti-Semitism in Poland. The historical context of Grabowski's interview should be mentioned. Lack of it makes the information biased. Xx236 (talk) 08:18, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

[9][10][11] François Robere (talk) 12:27, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Please respect the subject. dark years not The Dark Ages (whatever it means).

I'm not sure if it's the right place do discuss Polish antisemitism. The facts are obvious - rifles in France to defend Jewish buildings versus Poles selling pictures of a Jew with a coin. Yes, there are people in Poland professionally fighting antisemitism, you don't quote Pankowski, he is a jewel. Also Zgliczyński. Pure truth and academy. They are able to find antisemites in Israeli government. No antisemitism, no projects, no money.

Bilewicz has recently published his reasearch, that liberal Poles hate conservative ones more than vice versa. So yes, such obsession may generate antisemitism. If you spit on people, someone may react. The only antisemitic attack in Poland has been committed by a mentally ill person. I have tried to find English language information about the ilness but failed. [12] In Israel obsessed anti-Poles rule or will rule - Katz, Lapid. Their excess are known in Poland. Netanyahu attacked Polish people in Warsaw, during the anti-Irani confrence. No more pro-Isareli conferences here. Xx236 (talk) 07:54, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

You can quote whoever you want as long as they're notable and relevant. François Robere (talk) 11:27, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Recent additions

The recent addition that Volunteer Marek restored reads like a BLP violation. Because the sources aren't in English, most of us can't judge whether it's appropriate. Per BLP, it ought not to be restored until there's consensus on talk. Also, please explain what was wrong with this material and why it was removed as the other was restored. SarahSV ^(talk) 16:58, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Piotr Gontarczyk's comments were made on one of his regular radio shows ([13], [14]) which is far from a reasonable source. A published 35-page review (with a 1+ page detailed English abstract) by a tenured professor - plwiki - review online should be preferred. Piotr Gontarczyk (who page was purged of nearly all coverage of him in academic soruces - diff) is a figure with rather unusual, possibly even WP:FRINGE views. Including Gontarczyk without context is WP:UNDUE. Beyond critical coverage of Gontarczyk in Polish (Gontarczyk writes mainly or only in Polish AFAICT) - he has been covered thus in English RSes:

1. "Gontarczyk's work represents a highly rationalized version of the ethno-nationalist approach, legitimizing anti-Jewish violence as national self defense, based on the perception of Jews not as a group included in the Polish nation but as an "alien and harmful nation"".[15]
2. According to historian Henryk Samsonowicz "Gontarczyk’s scholarship brings shame to Polish historical scholarship". Assessing Gontarczyk's article on the 1968 dissidents, historian Karol Modzelewski said that it places him "among the communo-fascists." According to literature historian Michał Głowiński "Gontarczyk’s writing resembles not only texts from Nasz Dziennik but one can also hear the tone of "Moczar’s press" from the late 1960s". available online here, published in Yad Vashem Studies, volume 36.1: 253-70. (for context - Nasz Dziennik is far-right publication. Moczar is Mieczysław Moczar, known for 1968 Polish political crisis#Emigration of Polish citizens of Jewish origin).

Including a holder of such viewpoints - from a radio show - is clearly UNDUE and possibly quite a bit beyond just UNDUE.Icewhiz (talk) 17:23, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Gontarczyk is a professional historian who specializes in this very area. I am not sure how there is any BLP vio's here, except for Icewhiz's continued and persistent attacks on historians he disagrees with (by cherry picking quotes from people that have had arguments with Gontarczyk) Michilc's work is atrocious, per BLP standards, since she pretends that the phrase "alien and harmful nation" was made by Gontarczyk (by putting it in quotes) whereas he did not say anything like that (I think she's pulling that quote from somewhere else). So yeah, there are BLP problems here but not in the way that you pretend. Samsonowicz specializes in medieval history and has no expertise here (unlike Gontarczyk). The fact that Gontarczyk made the statements on radio is irrelevant, as is his ethnicity and in fact referring to him disparagingly as "radio historian" is an insult and a BLP violation, something that Icewhiz has been repeatedly warned about.

At the end of the day, Gontarczyk may be WP:BIASed, which is why the statements need to be attributed directly to him, but he is still WP:RS and notable.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:50, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek, you're engaging in blind reverting to Nihil novi's version, ignoring any edits in between. At 16:21, 13 March, in restoring his edits, you also removed Icewhiz's addition, including a link to the book. At 19:52, 13 March, in restoring Nihil novi's edits again, you also removed my copy edit of a different paragraph, once again removing a link to the book. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:04, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Sara, I restored a previous version, just like you did, and you not only reverted me but also another user. The difference was that I used a very detailed and specific edit summary, while yours was vague ("reads like" - what does that mean?) and non-constructive. If I made a blind revert then yours was even blind...er. As for the copy edit, I would have reinserted the subsequent copy edit but I was reverted pretty quickly so I didn't get the chance. And as far as Icewhiz's additions goes, he can always separate out his additions from his reverts rather than trying to sneak in the removals. Then it wouldn't be a problem.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:48, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

(ec) VM - Your personal opinion amounts to little. Michlic is a published expert in histiography - and this was written in a published setting on Polish histiography - a RS on Gontarczyk. As were the quotes in the Yad Vashem piece. Gontarczyk's extensive radio (and op-ed) output is factual - the cited piece you inserted is from Polskieradio. Any basic review of sources on Gontarczyk in English show several REDFLAGs regarding his use - particulary him speaking radio and non-academic newspaper op-eds.Icewhiz (talk) 20:08, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

And Gontarczyk is a published expert in history, and in this topic in particular, and has written and been published as well. And the "REDFLAGs" are going up in yoru imagination. Spare me the stuff about radio and newspapers since you yourself often seek to employ such sources. What matters is that Gontarczyk is a credentialed scholar and expert in the area, which makes him RS, and widely published which makes him notable.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:48, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

It's historiography, not histiography. FYI. ——SerialNumber54129 20:23, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Gontarczyk is highly notable author, and certainly widely cited, even if he has his own biases. He now published the critical review in two seperate publications.One in Glaukopis(a scholarly magazine), the other in W Sieci. His discovery regarding the alleged replacement of Jewish ghetto police with supposed Polish policemen is now very widely covered in Poland. Among sources covering it are

• TVP Info-Main state television news channel.
• Onet.pl-one of three largest news portals in Polish internet
• Dziennik.pl-one of the main newspapers in Poland
• Uwazam Rze-a notable magazine in Poland
• W sieci-conservative magazine in Poland

However the fragment discussed is not by Grabowski. As such I suggest to shorten it and move the main part of it to the article about the publication itself. Lastly I am crticial of using Michlic-this seems a very fringe author accussing several notable and reputable scholars of quite high caliber in terms of scholarly acknowledglements.I am not aware of other scholars making such extreme accussations as she does and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:32, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

It should stay out until there is consensus to include it - it's been removed by a number of editors - and I also agree that it appears to be entirely too much detail (leaving aside the typos, and sourcing issues pointed out below - along with other typos and grammatical errors that I haven't pointed out as well as repeating the information about the publication details of the work in two different paragraphs. It's a scholarly work - we should be using other scholars publishing in scholarly publications to critique it - not newspapers. Let's try to respect WP:BRD and the other editors and not edit war and discuss instead. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:35, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure how it "includes to many details". The matter is really simple. Gontarczyk makes two related claims: 1) That Grabowski says that it was Polish Police which helped the Germans liquidate the Bochnia Ghetto but that 2) it was actually Jewish Ghetto Police which participated in the liquidation and there was no Polish police presence. Both of these claims are WP:Verifiable. Does Grabowski say it? And the liquidation of the Ghetto is pretty well documented so not really subject to debate either. And if Gontarczyk is right then this is indeed a very serious breach of scholarly standards, which makes the criticism notable.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:40, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Troubling sourcing....

The statement being edit-warred over: "Historian Piotr Gontarczyk has accussed the 2018 book co-edited by Jan Grabowski and Barbara Engelking, and published by the Polish Center for Holocaust Research, in Warsaw, Poland, Dalej jest noc: losy Żydów w wybranych powiatach okupowanej Polski [Night Continues: the Fates of Jews in Selected Counties of Occupied Poland]" is being referenced to "Jan Grabowski and Barbara Engelking, eds., Dalej jest noc: losy Żydów w wybranych powiatach okupowanej Polski [Night Continues: the Fates of Jews in Selected Counties of Occupied Poland], Warsaw, Poland, Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badań nad Zagładą Żydów [Polish Center for Holocaust Research], 2 volumes (1,640 pp.), 2018, ISBN 978-8363444648 OCLC 1041616741" but this is bad sourcing because you cannot source Gontarczyk's "accusation" to the book he's objecting to. I kinda see what is meant here, but it's bad and should be fixed. And of course, there's typos that keep being introduced - "accussed" and other MOS errors. Can we get the correct sourcing for this information and not imply that Gontarczyk's accusation is contained within Engelking and Grabowski's work? Ealdgyth - Talk 20:30, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

I removed this fragment and added numerous reliable sources describing the situation.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:32, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Can you also like .. use periods and spaces and a spellchecker please? Also format your citations? Too much hurry is going on towards trying to make sure that the edit warring continues and not enough worry about trying to make the information readable and grammatcal ... the world will not end if more care is taken with additions/subtractions. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:38, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Due to the Polish Holocaust law, which applies to Polish media, Polish media sources from 2018 onwards (as opposed to published research) can not be considered reliable on the topic of Polish Holocaust complicity as the law applies to this topic in media publications - journalists writing on the topic facing potential civil sanctions.Icewhiz (talk) 20:40, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

"Due to the Polish Holocaust law, which applies to Polish media, Polish media sources from 2018 onwards " This is complete and utter nonsense and Icewhiz has repeatedly been warned about engaging in ethnic discrimination and his propensity to evaluate sources on the basis of racial criteria. This kind of approach is odious and disgusting and very much against Wikipedia culture and policy.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:43, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

This is not ethnic based - the issue here is the Polish government outlawing writing about the complicity of the Polish state or nation in media publications. As the media is muzzled, by law, it is not reliable on the topic since these restriction came into force - similar to the Iranian or North Korean media being unreliable on their respective supreme leaders.Icewhiz (talk) 20:49, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

MyMoloboaccount, the copy edit of the other paragraph has gone again and the problematic text is back. [16] There is no point in editing like this. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:41, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

One thing that would help is if people adding material about the book have it in front of them. Then there won't be uncertainty about whether the book contains the disputed text. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:44, 13 March 2019 (UTC)