Talk:Russian intervention in the Syrian civil war: Difference between revisions

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Furthermore, there were ~9000 bombing sorties and, by the highest estimate, <2000 civilian casualties. A horrific total to be sure, but if the bombings were primarily intended to kill civilians, that would be a remarkably ineffective campaign, wouldn't it? I was curious about Russian claims that reports of casualties were Western propaganda, and found that when you drill down on it, that's only part of the story. Is Pravda considered a reliable source? Pravda says, [http://www.pravdareport.com/opinion/columnists/21-02-2016/133604-syria_hysteria-0/ here], that part of the problems is that Medecins Sans Frontiers operates hospitals in ISIS controlled areas that are camouflaged, so that Russian strikes occasionally hit such targets by accident. Maybe that should be in the article too? [[User:JerryRussell|JerryRussell]] ([[User talk:JerryRussell|talk]]) 17:44, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
Furthermore, there were ~9000 bombing sorties and, by the highest estimate, <2000 civilian casualties. A horrific total to be sure, but if the bombings were primarily intended to kill civilians, that would be a remarkably ineffective campaign, wouldn't it? I was curious about Russian claims that reports of casualties were Western propaganda, and found that when you drill down on it, that's only part of the story. Is Pravda considered a reliable source? Pravda says, [http://www.pravdareport.com/opinion/columnists/21-02-2016/133604-syria_hysteria-0/ here], that part of the problems is that Medecins Sans Frontiers operates hospitals in ISIS controlled areas that are camouflaged, so that Russian strikes occasionally hit such targets by accident. Maybe that should be in the article too? [[User:JerryRussell|JerryRussell]] ([[User talk:JerryRussell|talk]]) 17:44, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]], I have been reading the arbitration case in which the allegation was made that you and [[user:Volunteer Marek]] were tag team edit warring to suppress materials. Volunteer Marek claims the case was dropped for lack of evidence, but that isn't exactly what happened. Arbitrator Opabinia regalis encouraged everyone to revert less often, and the consensus of arbitrators was that this matter is already covered by discretionary sanctions. They said they will re-assess the matter if these sanctions aren't working. So what does this mean? Can Tobby72 and I ask for discretionary sanctions to be applied against MVBW and VM for tag team edit warring on this question? I must say I'm curious, why you and VM would put so much energy into a dispute if it is of "no importance". [[User:JerryRussell|JerryRussell]] ([[User talk:JerryRussell|talk]]) 18:15, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:15, 19 June 2016

Template:Syrian Civil War sanctions

8th Damascus Offensive

Meanwhile Marj Al Sultan Airbase is secured and a buffer zone is established. Al Bilaliyah is liberated by the Syrian Army. They divided Daraya in the south and cut off supply lines. There were truces in Yarmouk Camp. Zahran Alloush the leader of Jaish al Islam was killed. These are important developments.

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POVing of a section title

Additionally, will you please stop changing the section title [2] from "Reports of war crimes and attacks on civilian" to "Alleged violations of international humanitarian law"? It's obviously done with an intent to push a POV. The fact that you're trying to hide this information in the most obscure corner of the article and removing the summary of this info from lede evidences that as well.

The sources describe "reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians". They DO NOT talk about some "alleged violations". There's nothing "alleged" here. It is. Likewise it's not about "international humanitarian law" (wtf that is) but about - literally - "war crimes" and "attacks on civilians". By changing the section title you are conducting original research and misrepresenting sources (some more). Also, as you well know (at least as Tobby well knows), we also have WP:ALLEGED which says to avoid this word in exactly these circumstances.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:38, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) is rather unreliable. See 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict. -- Tobby72 (talk) 23:52, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your opinion is noted. And also irrelevant (I have no idea how another Wikipedia article is suppose to establish reliability of a source). Furthermore, as you're well aware, SOHR is NOT the only, or even the major, organization that that section covers. We have Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and Doctors Without Borders. And these are the sources which talk about 'war crimes' not some "alleged violations of international humanitarian law" that you guys pulled out of your thin air. So whatever your beliefs about SOHR are, they are also irrelevant for that reason. Can you please self-revert your disruptive edit or at the very least actually address the issue meaningfully on talk? Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:00, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And I just looked at 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict. What in hell does that article have to do with the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights? Syria is over here. Gaza is over there. ??? . Unsurprisingly the words "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights" does not appear at all in that article. Nor does the acronym "SOHR". I checked the talk page, including the extensive archives. Nope, not there either. ???
So why are you even mentioning this obviously irrelevant article? Are you just trying to waste my time or something? Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
2014 Israel–Gaza conflict_Alleged violations of international humanitarian law.
Your POV is irrelevant. Amnesty, HRW are using "reliable sources" like SOHR. — "Amnesty International has maintained a long relationship with Rami Abdulrahman. Al-Akhbar understands they have been meeting with him in person for years." -[3] — "Analyisis of the Amnesty International report on ‘war crimes’ allegations against Russia in Syria", Swedish Doctors for Human Rights. -- Tobby72 (talk) 00:48, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My "POV" is just reliable sources. If you think Amnesty International or HRW are not reliable take it up at WP:RSN. Which you know is not going to work, right? And we still have that the article - or the section - you just pointed out doesn't say ANYTHING about SOHR. (Also SWEDHR is not exactly an unbiased source itself as hyperbolic rhetoric like "we deconstruct the biased pro-NATO stance " and "spin by the Russophobic media" and "anti-Russia propaganda war administrated in the NATO Strategic disinformation centre STRATCOM" and other WP:FRINGE material).Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:59, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your POV is: "There's nothing "alleged" here. It is." -- Tobby72 (talk) 01:38, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Do the sources say alleged? No. Then observe Wikipedia policy and drop it. Now, I know from our previous interactions that you're JUSTNOTGOINGTOLISTEN to anything I say, so please, take it up at WP:RSN.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:45, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Volunteer Marek What they are trying to point out with the article 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict, is that the title of a similar section in the article is called 'Alleged_violations_of_international_humanitarian_law'. From what I can see here is that its 'Grey' for Gaza conflict and 'Black' for Syria conflict. Yes these conflicts are different, but civilian casulties (intended or not) are a result from military actions in both conflicts, regardless if its air dropped bombs, artillery or even small arms fire. On the other hand you are correct that the sources you are talking about do not state 'alleged', but one could say that sources have their own POV and a lot of the time are biased and not objective. The following is my POV on sources: for example with Amnesty International, in their cases they use testimonies of people that are at a high risk of influence from either side of the conflict. Fair enough this would be reports of the poeople they speak to, but their titles and general wording in reports have assumptions and some bias from the very start. And adding to this, many sources change their content slightly after a few minutes or hours of posting. You may say that this is standard editorial work, but the few words that are changed, added or removed can dramatically affect the article and thus affecting the objectiveness, as seen with the Reuters article mentioned in the discussion earlier. But of course you can disagree. Hammer5000 (talk) 14:02, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • This "POVing" section continue discussion started in "criticism" section above [4]. Here is edit that I think is clearly problematic and basically the same as discussed in "criticism" section above. All the arguments stated above still remain valid. In particular, the factual materials about the war became hidden and (mis)represented as some kind of a political debate after these changes, etc. My very best wishes (talk) 15:26, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Of course anything that we write here must be supported by 'Reliable' sources (no one can prove that they are fully objective), in some cases like this one about section title, words like 'Alleged' can help to stay objective. Otherwise we do not allow room for human factor in reporting either. Who says that the reporting is not selective, everyone has a POV even if many try to minimise it? Just to remind the situation in Madaya, even when humanitarian aid was getting there, people were still starving. Assad got the blame again and 'most' of our western media did not bother to acknowledge the fact that armed rebels had a lot of control of the aid once it was there. So if talking about POV here, then a lot of the media dont even want to report what does not meet their criteria, they just show the starving people but not the cause/source of it. Rebels did not allow a lot of the journalists to even enter, why do you think this is? And what is it that we call a fact or allegation? If a journalist shows a picture that does not provide proof of the cause, but only the result, is it automatically a fact what the journalist says is the cause? Hammer5000 (talk) 15:58, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This page is about Russian military intervention. Therefore, all reliably sourced claims about abuses by Russian forces belong here. Yes, sure, there are numerous reports of abuses by many other sides that could be even much worse, but they belong to other pages.My very best wishes (talk) 16:09, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I used an example not relating to Russian actions, but that was an example to show how reports can be very much POV too. Actually returning to the title itself ('swallowing my pride of trying to be right'), it is suitable since it says 'Reports' in the beginning. I am standing by my other arguments in this section about the reliability and POV of sources however. Hammer5000 (talk) 16:20, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The use of the word "alleged" is anything but objective. It is a way to WP:WEASEL and POV the text. We actually have this in guidelines: WP:ALLEGED.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:09, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You only have to watch CNN yesterday to see Russia bomb a civilian fruit market. Legacypac (talk) 18:56, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The sources explicitly say "attacks on civilians" (they even say "deliberate attacks on civilians") and "war crimes". That's what we use. And they don't say "alleged" so we don't either. As far as these other articles go, it's just WP:OTHERSTUFF and in fact at least a few of them should have their sections renamed.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

One more time, because of continued attempts to edit war [5]. The sources provided talk about "attacks on civilians" and "war crimes". They are not talking about just "civilian casualties" and "criticism". "Civilian casualties" could be accidental. That is NOT what the sources are describing - they are talking about deliberate and negligent attacks on civilians and civilian structures such as hospitals. By changing the section title in this way you are misrepresenting sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:47, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:TITLE – Avoid judgmental and non-neutral words; for example, allegation implies wrongdoing, and so should be avoided in a descriptive title. (Exception: articles where the topic is an actual accusation of illegality under law, discussed as such by reliable sources even if not yet proven in a court of law. These are accurately described as "allegations".). -- Tobby72 (talk) 11:04, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no really any dispute or denial that Russian military conducted carpet bombings not using precision-guided munitions (see this ref, for example). This inevitably leads to significant casualties among civilians. Were these bombings done intentionally? Yes, sure, according to official statements by the Russian government. Did it matter who controlled these territories, as emphasized in your last edit? No, it did not. Did they also intentionally bombed some entirely civilian targets, as Amnesty International tells? There is no any dispute that the bombings actually took place, but the Russian ministry of defense denied it was them. Well, according to vast majority of RS, that were actually them. Given that, I must agree with comment by VM above. This has been described in sources as bombings by Russian forces. So we are telling "reports" rather than "alleged" in the title. There is nothing "alleged" about civilians being killed. My very best wishes (talk) 14:08, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your opinion is noted. If you have any questions regarding these edits [6], [7], [8] ... WP:TITLE says: "Avoid judgmental and non-neutral words; for example, allegation implies wrongdoing, and so should be avoided in a descriptive title. (Exception: articles where the topic is an actual accusation of illegality under law, discussed as such by reliable sources even if not yet proven in a court of law. These are accurately described as "allegations".)". -- Tobby72 (talk) 10:59, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Those are reports. So, telling "reports of ..." is an adequate description. Telling "allegations" about something reported by all mainstream sources is POV. We simply tell what sources tell. My very best wishes (talk) 03:51, 29 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
WP:TITLE – (Exception: articles where the topic is an actual accusation of illegality under law, discussed as such by reliable sources even if not yet proven in a court of law. These are accurately described as "allegations".). -- Tobby72 (talk) 19:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(1) WP:TITLE is about titles of pages, not about titles of subsections. (2) WP:TITLE tells about accusations of crime as defined in common law. War crimes are different. In practice, they are frequently not prosecuted and not decided in courts as common crimes. We simply tell what sources tell. My very best wishes (talk) 20:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:SECTIONS – The provisions in § Article titles (above) generally apply to section headings as well. — A title should be a recognizable name or description of the topic that is natural, sufficiently precise, concise, and consistent with the titles of related articles.
"WP:TITLE tells about accusations of crime as defined in common law." — That's just your interpretation. -- Tobby72 (talk) 11:39, 31 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
To the extent that one could argue that WP:TITLE applies to section titles, the title you're reverting is the NPOV one that actually reflects sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:08, 31 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

'Part of the military intervention against ISIL'

Looks like Undue labelled like that right at the start. RS constantly emphasise that IS has been left alone by Russia as it goes after other targets on behalf of itself and the regime. And ... - russias bombing syria has killed hundreds of civilians december 2015 report Amnesty

Trolls: Start: - Russia isn't deploying to Syria Then for 6 months: - Russia will defeat ISIS Now: - Russia never said it would defeat ISIS

'Russia’s goal in Syria is not to support Assad against opposition but stop advance of ISIL and help defeat it ' - That is a statement from the Russian Embassy in London - is Wikipedia controlled by the pushers of this absurd propaganda? All RS emphasise rather the opposite. But then, after all, Wikipedia is not a well thought of source for this kind of subject matter, too easily hijacked by Kremlin trolls.

92.3.30.196 (talk) 22:34, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Even Putin stated quite directly that they were going into to support Assad, ISIL is only targeted when they are in the way of expanding govt held area. Legacypac (talk) 07:03, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I agree. Global research is an awful source though, not a RS I shouldn't think. What about for example, cnn article cnn Dan the Plumber (talk) 20:28, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
why the regimes recapture of palmyra was a political move92.3.24.108 (talk) 00:42, 31 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

removing text from the lede...

...which summarizes article text - please don't.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. And the operation never stopped. During last 24 hours 55 civilians were killed (Russian source and original). According to SOHR, "about 1800 civilians are among the nearly 4650 killed by Russian air and missile strikes in Syria" altogether [9]. My very best wishes (talk) 03:40, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
German and Japanese civilians also had to pay a heavy price for the crimes their governments committed. --Dorpater (talk) 20:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, they did pay a very heavy price in WWII. So what? My very best wishes (talk) 20:57, 29 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, we have many pages that describe fate of German and Japanese civilians. So should we describe what is happening in Syria. It does not matter if they were German, Japanese or Syrian. It does not matter if the "perpetrators" were German, Russian or American. It only matters what our policies tell. My very best wishes (talk) 17:13, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic quote

The Arabic quote in the last section is a bit rare, for two reasons: (1.) It should be quoted in transcription rather than Arabic script. This would be: Al-muhājidīn al-turkistānīyīn yataṣaddā bi-qūwa lil-jaysh an-nuṣayrī wa-min qabl ar-rūs. (2.) This is completely wrong Arabic. Did they really issue it like this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.206.142.152 (talk) 01:15, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

SOHR

Regarding the Syrian Observatory on Human Rights

  • Dorpater removes it [10] with the edit summary "removed partisan unreliable source from the intro.".

This is straight up POV pushing and WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. The edit summary is false. The source is reliable. It is often quoted by major media outlets and other established sources. New York Times calls them a "monitoring group". NPR says they "monitor the conflict". Yahoo News mentions them. Reuters says that they've been "cited by virtually every major news outlet since an uprising ... began". Also that they have [11] "been a key source of news on the events in Syria"\. And of course they also use them as a source [12]. We can keep going: The Economist. Associated Press. BBC ("a watchdog group"). The Guardian. DW. Etc. etc. etc. The fact that the source may disagree with your own personal opinions or prejudices does not make it unreliable.

  • After I restored the text and source Dorpater removed it again [13] with the edit summary "WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argumentation".

I'm sorry but this edit summary does not make sense. WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is an essay about "Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions". But even if we apply the same reasoning to article content, what does that have to do with anything? Pointing out that major news organizations and media regard a particular source as reliable is "other crap exists"? What other crap? What are you talking about? Or is this just a random excuse to engage in WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT edit warring and POV pushing? Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:48, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it's not "according to Sky News" - it's according to Amnesty International and rescue workers on the ground. Sky News is just reporting what those sources say.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:03, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tobby72, I'd appreciate it if you tried to utilize the talk page rather than just making your one revert per day in your attempts to make the article suit your POV. Observing 1RR on the article is a necessary not a sufficient condition - you need to justify your changes as well.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:34, 31 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Status : ongoing

russia despite draw down shipping more syria - information for use maybe as another reference in infobox. 92.3.24.108 (talk) 13:02, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Rfc regarding sentence in the lede

INCLUDE THE SOHR CLAIM
(non-admin closure)

I note that the RfC has been rendered moot by further edits and discussion, and the phrasing discussed here has been changed, but question of whether to include body counts by the SOHR in the lead is not moot.

That the nominator engages in forum shopping is immaterial to the outcome of the RfC; those who make such accusations shoud bring them to ANI per WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE.

There has been much debate around the reliablity or POV of the SOHR, but it is off the point, since the sentence is attributed to them and verifiable. None disputed that inclusion of the SOHR's claims in the article is violating WP:DUEWEIGHT, either. The question is whether that view should be mentioned in the lead.

There is a broad support for inclusion, though the best discussion ends up with User:Pincrete and User:Tiptoethrutheminefield agreeing to disagree about whether a claim by a non-RS can be used in the lead. Although none cited it, the majority viewpoint is supported by the MOS in WP:LEAD: "The lead should (...) summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. (Do not violate WP:NPOV by giving undue attention to less important controversies in the lead section.)" (emphasis added). As a consequence, I found the consensus is to include mention of the SOHR claims with attribution.

TigraanClick here to contact me 11:40, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the statement The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported that between the initiation of the intervention in September 2015 and February 2016, Russian air strikes have killed 1,000 civilians, including 200 children, though this claim has been disputed by the Russian government. from the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights be in the lede? Athenean (talk) 07:10, 31 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My reasoning: The sentence preceding this one is sufficient, and the SOHR is a highly partisan outlet as described in this RSN thread [14]. The same info is also included in the article body and the infobox, so to repeat it in the lede is overkill. Athenean (talk) 07:10, 31 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Include, clearly. The lede is supposed to summarize the article. So the fact that "same info" is in the article and the infobox is PRECISELY why it should be included in the lede. As to whether it's "a highly partisan outlet", please note that in that RSN thread when Athenean says "as described in this RSN thread" what they really mean is "I, Athenean, made the same accusation in another forum". Nobody there in that thread agrees with him; it's pretty disingenuous to link to a thread where nobody agreed with you and say "see this thread for support". As User:Shock Brigade Harvester Boris states in that very thread Athenean links to "The report has been picked up by numerous high-end reliable sources such as The Guardian and Al Jazeera.". As another user says "it was quoted by numerous mainstream sources on many languages and therefore can be used". If this needs to be backed up by secondary sources, that's not a problem.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:17, 31 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Here are secondary sources which report on this as well, which will be added to the article: [15], [16] and others.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:30, 31 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exclude The SOHR was rejected at the RSN by non-involved users TheLogician112 and FunkMonk as "a highly partisan outlet". So that concerns me. I'd much rather refrain from using any source that sides with a belligerent of such a tense and complex conflict. Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:58, 31 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As mentioned elsewhere, that source should not be used directly, only reliable sources that cite it. FunkMonk (talk) 23:59, 31 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If the SOHR is indeed a highly partisan outlet, I would still retain my concerns when citing it, whether that be through a secondary source or from the SOHR itself. Étienne Dolet (talk) 00:12, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Both users whom you invoke here stated that the source was fine if we had secondary sources which cited it. Which we do.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh man, I didn't even realize that the same user whom you invoke for support is showing up here to disagree with you.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:51, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
FunkMonk said that this source is highly partisan, and I agree with him on that. I do disagree, however, that the use of secondary sources would in some magical way make such a highly partisan source reliable. I don't believe in miracles, nor do I believe in fairy tales. There's plenty of academic sources out there that point to the fact that the SOHR is nothing but a mouthpiece of systemically biased western news media runned by one person out of his apartment who has a deep and overt sympathy for the Muslim Brotherhood and the Free Syrian Army. Therefore, I don't believe that just because BBC or some other western news outlet cites him in some article would change that blatant fact. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:30, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's not the place of the Wikipedia editor to judge what secondary sources choose to do. That's classic original research and WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. Now, if you actually have these "academic sources" which show that "SOHR is nothing but a mouthpiece of systemically biased western news media ... ... ..." then let's see'em. Where? You can't just assert that such sources which supposedly prove you right exist but then refuse to show'em to us. And it has already been pointed out repeatedly that the characterization of SOHR as "runned (sic) by one person out of his apartment" is completely false. For example here (which incidentally begs the question of why you're here, since it very much looks like you followed me here from there just to disagree). There multiple sources have been provided which directly contradict your description of SOHR.
Just to practice what I preach, here they are again: New York Times calls them a "monitoring group". NPR says they "monitor the conflict". Yahoo News mentions them. Reuters says that they've been "cited by virtually every major news outlet since an uprising ... began". Also that they have "been a key source of news on the events in Syria". And of course they also use them as a source [17]. We can keep going: The Economist. Associated Press. BBC ("a watchdog group"). The Guardian. DW. Etc. etc. etc.
Here is an extensive profile of the organization from a reliable source [18]. Let's see what THEY have to say about them:
"The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights has emerged as a prominent campaign group amid the country's revolt against President Bashar al-Assad, releasing daily casualty figures for the international media"
"The group of mainly professionals, many of them lawyers, monitored changes to the law and the judicial system, and worked to highlight cases of human rights abuses"
"It now has more than 200 members and affiliates, covering every province in Syria, with some volunteers aggregating and publicising information from the UK"
"The group says it is impartial in its reporting, recording the deaths of soldiers as well as civilians and protesters. The names of all those killed are carefully documented, along with the circumstances surrounding their death, including videos if they are available."
I'd appreciate it if you dropped the hyperbolic rhetoric about "partisan sources", "mouthpiece of Western media", or "run by one guy out of his apartment" since reliable sources tell us that none of these are true.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:55, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - this also appears to be a case of WP:FORUMSHOPPING. User:Athenean went to WP:RSN with the exact same question, didn't get the answer they wanted, so they came here and opened up this RfC.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:59, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Citing a bunch of sources isn't going to make the SOHR anymore of a joke than it already is. In fact, you've proved my point. Just because someone quotes unreliable sources, doesn't make that source magically reliable. In this case, it doesn't change the fact of how openly partisan the person who started the SOHR actually is. That's bias in itself, and we have the sources to prove it. As for those sources, here a some:

"Perhaps the most common, systematic error of the western media, reporting on the Syrian crisis, has been the extraordinary reliance on a single person, a man based in Britain who calls himself the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR). Many of the stories about Syrian body counts, ‘regime’ atrocities and huge collateral damage come from this man. Yet Rami Abdul Rahman has always flown the flag of the Muslim Brotherhood led ‘Free Syrian Army’ on his website (SOHR 2015). He claims to collect information from a network of associates in and around Syria. It is logical to assume these would also be mostly anti-Government people. Media channels which choose to rely on such an openly partisan source undermine their own credibility. Perhaps they don’t care?" [19]

"Many of the allegations in the Western press that accuse the Russian government of killing civilians are solely based on this one unprofessional and biased source." [20]

"That said, however, the political bias that lurks in the data supplied by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights revitalizes an extremely simplified, stereo-typed “Arab Spring” and is hampering correct understanding of the Syrian situations." [21]

And please, don't cherry pick your favorite western sources from the others that may not fit your POV. NY Times, for example, and many other western news media outlets, do call the SOHR a "one-man band". 02:30, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

(unindent) Citing a bunch of sources isn't going to make the SOHR anymore of a joke than it already is. - actually, your confusing grammar aside, citing a bunch of reliable sources is EXACTLY how Wikipedia works (or at least how it's suppose to work) and yes, it does establish the credibility of the source. Your comment sounds like you're actually rejecting the idea that Wikipedia should be based on reliable sources. I'm sorry but in that case there is a unreconcilable dissonance between your editing approach and the fundamental principles of an encyclopedia. Your idiosyncratic opinions should be discounted accordingly.

You are also misrepresenting the situation. It's not JUST that reliable sources quote SOHR, it's that they EVALUATE it positively.

Now, onto your "sources".

First, this one. Is this suppose to be the "academic" source? Actually, it's an article from a well known conspiracy-theory-website, globalresearch.ca, popular with all kinds of right wing extremist cranks. Are you sure you wish to present us with such a "source" to support your point?

Second, this one. It's title is "The SOHR is a tool of western propaganda". Ooooookkkkkkaayyyyy, that already raises like a couple dozen red flags right there. What is this source? Is it an academic journal? No, it's a non-peer reviewed publication of a Kremlin backed "research institute". Among other things, it has accused Benjamin Netanyahu of... being a Holocaust denier (!) And other crap like that. Here's a typical sentence from the publication: "Always the world’s professional victims, Israelis had no shame ...". Please don't post links to this anti-semitic rag on Wikipedia anymore (anyone who wants to find the exact citation for my claim can google it themselves). Needless to say, it's nowhere need reliable.

I have no idea where you found this sourc.

And then we have the New York Times which is the first actually reliable (nevermind your promise of "academic" sources) you have managed to quote. Problem is that you cherry picked one sentence out of it to misrepresent what it actually says. It also says, quote: "He does not work alone. Four men inside Syria help to report and collate information from more than 230 activists on the ground". The "one-man band" thing is just a journalist's way of saying that one guy is in charge. That's all.

So. You said there was "plenty of academic sources" which showed how evil and partisan SOHR was. I asked you to provide them. You didn't. Instead you gave us links to a far-right conspiracy website and a link to a fake online "journal" which publishes anti-semitic texts.

I don't think I need to say anything more here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:51, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is the flag of the Free Syrian Army and it is found on the official website of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR). This makes me, EtienneDolet, believe that the SOHR is not neutral because it swears allegiance to one side of the conflict over the other. <Comment by Volunteer Marek: No, this flag is NOT on the website, only a logo similar too it. No, this is not the flag of FSA, or at least the logo isn't, it's just an older Syrian flag. And who cares? This is original research. Also, posting images like this makes it hard to reply to the argument so don't do it> … … <Comment by Pincrete: This appears to be simply using Syrian colours and 'iconography', no more sinister than an Irish organisation using Emerald and a harp.> … … <Comment by Tiptoethrutheminefield: It is an exact representation of the flag of the FSA, in design, in colors, in the ordering of those colors, and in the location and the number of stars, draped over a map of Syria.>
All the claims made in these articles can be easily verifiable with other primary or secondary sources (i.e. "flown the flag of the Muslim Brotherhood led ‘Free Syrian Army’ on his website" with the current SOHR official website). On that note alone, it's impossible to say he has no allegiance to any side of the conflict. As for the NY Times article, indeed he may have affiliates here and there, but the collection of information and the analysis of that information is done selectively by a single person who is in open support of one side of the conflict over the other. That's deeply concerning in itself. And to say that I "reject" all reliable sources is far from the truth. That wasn't the underlining point of my argument. It was the use of SOHR as a source in general, whether it be by BBC, Independent, Sputnik, and yes, even Wikipedia. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:37, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You claimed there were "plenty of academic sources" which showed that SOHR was "Western propaganda mouthpiece" or something like that. I asked for the "plenty of academic sources". Instead you gave us a far right conspiracy website, and an online fake journal that publishes anti-semitic pieces. Okay.
Now you're saying "All the claims made in these articles" - the conspiracy website and the sketchy journal - "can be easily verifiable with other primary or secondary sources". In other words you are once again ASSERTING that these sources which would support your claims exist somewhere out there. What you are NOT doing is PROVIDING these sources. A single example of a trivial factoid doesn't cut it (added later: in fact, it's even wrong about this as well) - it does NOT, not by a long shot, show that "All the claims made in these articles" - the conspiracy website and the sketchy journal - "can be easily verifiable with other primary or secondary sources".
You really need to stop making stuff up and then claiming that sources out there exist to back up this stuff you just made up. Sources please or this is a pointless discussion.
(And yes, your statement above pretty much explicitly stated that you don't believe in Wikipedia's policy of WP:RS and WP:V because 'Western propaganda' or something. Which pretty much means you're WP:NOTHERE. Now, I'm sure in practice you're all to willing to use reliable sources on some occasions).Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:52, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I provided the sources, and it just so happens that they can be easily be verifiable with the claims made. I don't think I have to repeat myself here. You call it extremist or whatever you want, but the real extremity here is stating that a source is neutral when it openly, almost boastfully, proclaims allegiance to one side (might I add, the losing side) of the conflict. That's not WP:RS as I've known it in my 10 years of editing Wikipedia. But we digress. Étienne Dolet (talk) 05:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
NO, no you didn't. You said that there was "plenty of academic sources" to back up your claims. I asked for them. You gave links to a conspiracy website and a website which publishes anti-semitic texts.
I pointed out what your "sources" really were. You then claimed that "All the claims made" in the sources you provided - a conspiracy website and an anti-semitic webpage - could be verified with "other" primary and secondary sources. I asked you to show me these "other" sources which can back up "All the claims" made in the conspiracy website article or in the webpage. You haven't done that. At ALL. All you've done is fallen back on making exaggerated and unfounded claims about the original source under discussion. And repeating the completely unsupported, unfounded, unbacked and false claim that there exist out there, somewhere in the universe, other sources which back up your conspiracy website and anti-semitic "journal".
So one more time. Please show me these "plenty academic sources" which you promised. Show me these "other" sources which back up "All the claims" made in the two sketchy - non-academic, non-reliable, conspiracy and clearly fringe - sources you did provide.
Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:21, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And yes, I would call a far-right website which is in the business of spreading conspiracies, and a website which pretends to be a journal and which publishes anti-semitic articles "extremist". Wouldn't you? Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:24, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, these are academic sources, and my point is that the claims can be easily verifiable. As in, much of what they say is true. So even if it fails to be a RS, the whole FSA flag on the SOHR website is still deeply concerning, let alone the fact that the sentence in its current state is undue and repetitive (i.e. the preceding sentence is similar) for the lead. Hence, that's why I stand by my exclude vote. Étienne Dolet (talk) 05:46, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
These are NOT academic sources!!!!!!! It's a conspiracy website and a webpage that publishes anti-semitic articles! Will you please stop making that assertion? It's blatantly false. They are neither academic nor reliable nor anything close.
And now you're trying to change the argument to "undue and repetitive"? That makes about as much sense as claiming your sources are "academic".
And NO, you're wrong (and your "source" is wrong) about the flag thing too. 1) There is no such flag on the website, there's only a website logo which sort, maybe, kind of, resembles that flag. 2) The flag is NOT the flag of the Free Syrian Army, it's an older version of the Syrian flag, from 1930's or something, 3) regardless, so what, you're grasping at straws.Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:32, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Include while SOHR clearly opposes the regime, that is not a reason to refuse to report the data they collect. SOHR has proven to be one of the best sources of facts about the war. Putin's press efforts... not so much. Legacypac (talk) 06:58, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Include - per arguments already provided on WP:RSNB [22] and on this talk page [23], [24]. My very best wishes (talk) 13:08, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Emphatic no to the inclusion. I've seen discussions here that conclude that Daily Mail does not qualify as a decent source, despite the fact that it is cited by plenty of quality newspapers. Then how on earth can a one-man-band like SOHR be reliable in the field in which it is absolutely openly partisan? Dorpater (talk) 19:23, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that I've struck through this !vote by a known sock. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:47, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is your opinion. Is this source known for "fact-checking and accuracy"? Based on the extensive usage of this source by multiple RS, it has significant positive international reputation. Have some specific data by this source been disproved according to publications in RS? If not, then your comment is groundless. My very best wishes (talk) 19:39, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Include Summoned by bot. Those arguing against including the sentence seem to take issue with the SOHR's reliability, rather than whether it's appropriate for the introduction. As others have mentioned, the SOHR has been repeatedly quoted in hundreds of thousands of articles in reliable sources about Syria. If anyone has an issue with the SOHR, it's with those sources, not Wikipedia. It's also clearly relevant to the introduction section on the article. I cannot see any reason not to include it. FuriouslySerene (talk) 13:26, 4 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Include Summoned by bot The wording proposed is unambiguously in SOHR's voice, not as fact. If there are other (lower?) claims they can also be included or a 'has been questioned' added. Casualty figures in an ongoing conflict are notoriously unreliable, and, to a degree, always susceptible to partisan calculation, even the most respected humanitarian orgs have a vested interest in drawing attention to the plight of victims and it is often only years later (or never) that an accurate assessment can occur. No convincing case has been made here that SOHR is SO unreliable that it should be discounted. If western media are largely relying on these figures, that itself makes them noteworthy. Pincrete (talk) 09:11, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional include - As long as the sentence in the lede is correctly sourced, it should remain. As said by others, multiple reliable sources support their data, so we should accept the reliable source. If you don't like it, get a reliable source to refute the claim and that can also be included. As for it not being necessary because it's in the article... well, you've missed the point of a lede. --Topperfalkon (talk) 01:20, 14 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Emphatic exclude - this claim from a source that other sources have considered dubious or biased, a source which is not neutral (produced as it is by a flag waving supporter of Muslim Brotherhood), and one which is also certainly not official, is not suitable for lede content. There is editorializing for effect by placing this source and its extreme claim alongside sources and claims from proper international bodies that are generally considered to be neutral (Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and Doctors Without Borders). By all means mention the claim somewhere in the article content, along with any responses to the claim. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:49, 16 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Tiptoethrutheminefield, this is the source being mainly used by Western media, that of course does not make it reliable (in mid-conflict, is any source wholly reliable? Previous wars would suggest not), it does make it notable. I don't believe that demonstrably more reliable figures are actually available. Pincrete (talk) 18:07, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A lede is meant to summarize article content, not be a pov opinion piece. What content is being summarized by having this extreme claim by this pov source in the lede? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:12, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What content? In context, that these are the claimed casualty figures being used by most mainstream media. Because the figures are (rightly IMO) attributed to the SOHR, it is obvious that the degree of reliability is uncertain, which is always the case with ongoing conflicts anyway. None of us are going to know HOW un/reliable these figures are till it's all over, if then. Neither you nor I can say with any certainty that these figures are 'extreme/accurate/understated'. The 'antidote' to a possibly partisan or otherwise poss. unreliable statistic, is a counter-statistic. Your argument is effectively arguing for NO casualty estimate, since no clearly reliable source does or at present even could exist. Pincrete (talk) 21:44, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong! Stop misrepresenting my position! I clearly stated that I think it is OK to have this figure (and any responses to it) in the article. What I oppose is its insertion into the lede, which is what this rfc is about. This content does not summarize anything, so is not required in the lede, and I think having it there turns the lede into a partisan, pov opinion piece. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:12, 22 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies, there was no intention to misrepresent. What I should have written is 'Your argument is effectively arguing for NO casualty estimate IN THE LEDE', since to the best of my knowledge, there are no RS figures available. Pincrete (talk) 20:51, 22 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Apology accepted. Lede content is meant to summarize article content. This claim (which is controversial, highly dubious, contested, and from a partisan source) is already in the article. There is no legitimate reason to have it also in the lede. As for your question, there are no other casualty estimates in the lede so the question is void. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:54, 23 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"that other sources have considered dubious or biased" - one more time. WHERE are these "other sources". You're doing the exact same thing that EtienneDolet tried to pull above. Make a claim that there exist, somewhere in the world, these magical "other sources" which cast doubt on this source. Academic ones too, no less apparently! Then when someone actually asks you to provide these "other sources" then... either ignore that request and just keep on endlessly asserting that they exist, or provide some junk like a conspiracy website and an anti-semitic journal, like EtienneDolet did and claim with a straight face that these are "academic".
Where are these "other" sources?
And oh yeah, WP:BLP applies to the guy who organized SOHR. So unless you produce a reliable source to the effect that he is a "flag waving supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood", you will need to strike that accusation. I'll give you some time Otherwise, I'll remove that BLP vio myself.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:35, 23 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That sources just don't know how reliable SOHR is, is I think established (but when in an ongoing war has there ever been a wholly RS?). That this source is irredeemably 'tainted', I agree with 'Marek', is NOT established by RS. They themselves are using SOHR's figures, though choosing to 'attribute' them. 'Tiptoe' is though of course perfectly free to think these should not be used in the lede. Pincrete (talk) 20:16, 23 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Removal of sourced info

  • I'm sorry but why is this being removed? Sources are provided - [25], this is nothing more than a POV push. Vague WP:IDONTLIKEIT claims don't count.
  • per MOS:SECTIONS – The provisions in § Article titles (above) generally apply to section headings as well. — A title should be a recognizable name or description of the topic that is natural, sufficiently precise, concise, and consistent with the titles of related articles. -- Tobby72 (talk) 10:10, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • You continue repeating the same, although this was explained above a number of times. First of all, you misrepresent sources[26]. This is not according to Sky News. Source ("Independent") [27] tells: "The leading human rights organisation said Moscow's air force has not only been targeting civilians and aid workers in Syria over the last week, but that warplanes have been deliberately attacking those attempting to treat the victims." This is not according to Sky News. Second, the sources indeed tell about attacks on civilians, but you removed it. Third, why the city of Al-Raqqah needs a qualifier like an "ISIS city". Is that to justify the bombings of civilians? You also use obscure partisan sources to discredit Amnesty International. I do not think this belongs to the page even about Amnesty International, and certainly undue on this page. My very best wishes (talk) 14:04, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "First of all, you misrepresent sources. This is not according to Sky News." – Sky News[28] tells: "However, evidence obtained by Sky News suggests that this is not the case. Footage filmed in Aleppo five days ago shows the graphic aftermath of what's claimed to be a Russian airstrike."
  • "Second, the sources indeed tell about attacks on civilians, but you removed it." - [29] – I've reworded the section title per WP:TITLE – "Avoid judgmental and non-neutral words; for example, allegation implies wrongdoing, and so should be avoided in a descriptive title. (Exception: articles where the topic is an actual accusation of illegality under law, discussed as such by reliable sources even if not yet proven in a court of law. These are accurately described as "allegations".)" ... and per MOS:SECTIONS – "The provisions in § Article titles (above) generally apply to section headings as well. — A title should be a recognizable name or description of the topic that is natural, sufficiently precise, concise, and consistent with the titles of related articles."
  • "Third, why the city of Al-Raqqah needs a qualifier like an "ISIS city"." – We report what reliable sources say. The International Business Times[30] tells: "Kurdish militias are eyeing the Islamic State's (Isis) de facto Syrian capital of Raqqa after capturing a strategic town to its east ..."
  • "You also use obscure partisan sources ... ." – Swedish Doctors for Human Rights is a Sweden-based non-profit research Non-governmental organization composed by professors, physicians, researchers and academics within health-related disciplines. Many of their research findings have been published and/or commented in peer-reviewed international medical journals and in Läkartidningen (the Journal of the Swedish Medical Association). -- Tobby72 (talk) 15:27, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is simply ridiculous. Yes, Sky News were noted in the publication. But the claim in the publication was based on a variety of other sources (see quotation above). As about other things, well, your edit (diff above) speaks for itself. For example, providing POV-ish qualifiers about subjects already described on their own pages (such as propagandist Petrov or terrorist city) is something very familiar.My very best wishes (talk) 17:01, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This was already explained to you.

First, it's not "according to SkyNews". The title of that source is "Russia Guilty Of Syria War Crimes, Says Amnesty". Yes part of the evidence is SkyNews footage. But there's also TWO other sources. So SkyNews is ONLY ONE OF the sources to say this. You are changing the test to make it seem like it is THE ONLY source which backs this up.

Second, you are NOT rewording the section title according to WP:TITLE (which, as already explained to you applies to article titles anyway). The sources state and the whole section is about attacks on civilians and war crimes. You CANNOT just remove from the title the description of what the section actually is about! You cannot quote WP:MOS to support that kind of edit because it's exactly the OPPOSITE of what MOS says.

Third, you are committing WP:SYNTH by calling "Raqqah" an "ISIS city" (etc) because the text you inserted is trying to suggest to the readers that it's justifiable to target civilians and commit war crimes, as long as it's done in an ISIS-controlled city (too bad for the civilians I guess).

Fourth, your SDHR source is clearly cherry picked and does NOT represent the majority of sources out there.

Please stop revert warring (even if you're careful to observe the 1RR limit, a slow motion edit war is still an edit war - and you are doing THE SAME THING on other articles, which makes this worse) until you get WP:CONSENSUS for these changes and additions. If you want to you can start an RfC.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:38, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Funny, Swedish Doctors for Human Rights "does NOT represent the majority of sources out there" but Syrian Observatory for Human Rights does. Are we living on the same planet? Dorpater (talk) 15:42, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is not only SOHR, but many other sources, such as Amnesty International [31]. In addition, as was explained several times above, this is not just SOHR (Syrian Observatory for Human Rights), but a large number of publications in other RS that use SOHR as a legitimate source of information on human rights in Syria. But I did not see publications that use Swedish Doctors for Human Rights as a source of information about human rights in Syria. So, yes this is view by the vast majority of sources, and the Swedish doctors are a less appropriate source than SOHR. My very best wishes (talk) 16:49, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the difference. SOHR reports are mentioned in a large plethora of SECONDARY reliable sources. If you can find a large number of reliable SECONDARY sources which mention the SD4HR view, then we can talk.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:02, 3 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Third, you are committing WP:SYNTH by calling "Raqqah" an "ISIS city" ." – That's just your opinion. ISIS claims Raqqa as the capital of its so-called caliphate.
  • "Please stop revert warring (even if you're careful to observe the 1RR limit)." –
Diffs of the user's reverts:
  • 16:40, 3 March 2016 – Volunteer Marek ("except for the obviously POV original research and editorializing")
This is a clear violation of WP:1RR. – diff, diff. Volunteer Marek is obviously aware of 1RR.
Please also see Long-term pattern of tag-teaming between Volunteer Marek and My very best wishes. Initiated by Étienne Dolet at 18:56, 27 February 2016.
Volunteer Marek & My very best wishes have been edit-warring against 8 different editors: User:Hammer5000[32], User:EkoGraf[33], User:Axxxion[34], User:Dorpater[35], User:Athenean[36], User:Macaque123[37], User:MyMoloboaccount[38], me[39]. -- Tobby72 (talk) 13:05, 3 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, Tobby72, there is no 1RR violation there. What you got there is two users reverting you because you: 1) are engaged in a slow motion edit war (and this is not the only article you're doing this at) 2) you don't participate in talk page discussion until you're forced to, 3) you keep repeating the same erroneous reasons when you do, which don't really make sense.

Here is YOUR slow motion edit warring on THIS ARTICLE ALONE:

Jan 2 Tobby72

Feb 21 Tobby72

Feb 21 Tobby72

Mar 14 Tobby72

Mar 15 Tobby72

Then you really get going, basically coming here once per day to do your 1 revert per day, with hardly any talk page discussion...

Mar 17 Tobby72

Mar 20 Tobby72

Mar 22 Tobby72

Mar 24 Tobby72

Mar 25 Tobby72

Mar 27 Tobby72

Mar 28 Tobby72

Mar 29 Tobby72

Mar 31 Tobby72

April 2 Tobby72

So for almost three months you have been gaming the 1RR restriction and edit warring against multiple editors. On talk page you engage in WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and just keep repeating the same thing over and over, no matter how many times it's pointed out to you that your interpretation/belief/application are just wrong (for example, WP:TITLE says the OPPOSITE of what you claim it says). Now towards the end there, several editors who have been edit warring at the Vladimir Putin page have followed myself here - which in itself is problematic. They also have not made an effort to discuss the issue.

Your behavior here is exactly the same as what you've been doing for more than a year (!!!!!!!) War in Donbass and Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation where you've been trying to cram POV material into these articles against WP:CONSENSUS by also edit warring against multiple users, and also making sure to observe 3RR but making sure you get your reverts in.

As to your accusations of tag teaming, yes, another user filed a request for arbitration and.... it was overwhelmingly rejected for lack of evidence. Hence you bringing it up here and pretending that there was any substance to it is an obvious instance of bad faith.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:32, 3 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • "So for almost three months you have been gaming the 1RR restriction and edit warring against multiple editors." –
Diffs of the user's reverts::
  • Mar 3 – Volunteer Marek
  • Mar 3 – Volunteer Marek
  • Mar 8 – Volunteer Marek
False. I've started every single discussion here. You have just been reverting.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:02, 4 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not to mention that you're DIFF-PADDING like crazy. A whole bunch of those aren't even reverts just edits I've made to the article. And of course by posting this to the talk page you are just amping up your disruption as this clearly isn't a place for it. WP:3RR is over that way -->, why not go there? WP:BOOMERANG perhaps? Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:05, 4 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"A whole bunch of those aren't even reverts just edits" – Be specific, please. I see just reverts. Perhaps you mean Feb 27 ?
I should also point out Volunteer Marek, that all that diffs above show is that you are constantly edit warring against multiple editors. You might want to stop that. -- Tobby72 (talk) 18:20, 4 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop making completely false accusations. Adding a little [diff] to a claim, when that diff doesn't actually show what you claim it shows is not proof. It is dishonesty.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:16, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

One more time

Re this revert and ones like it.

First, this is a BLIND revert which seems to undo changes just because of who made them not because of their substance. As such, it combines what may be legitimate changes with completely unwarrented and POV ones. Specifically:

1. As mentioned above several times the section title needs to be "Reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians" NOT "Reports of war crimes". The information in the section is about BOTH reports of war crimes AND deliberate attacks on civilians. Please stop changing this section title. It describes what the section is about and what the sources say. There's absolutely NO good reason to change it.

2. Second the change of "Video footage" to "According to SkyNews" misrepresents the source. The title of the source is "Russia Guilty Of Syria War Crimes, Says Amnesty", as in Amnesty International. So it's not "according to SkyNews", it's according to SkyNews and Amnesty International. I also don't see a need for attribution here, since it's pretty clear from the paragraph that this is being reported by several sources, AI among them.

3. Adding "in the Islamic State capital of Al-Raqqah and the al-Qaeda ruled city of Idlib" to the sentence "used white phosphorus against targets in Al-Raqqah". This is POV WP:SYNTH. It is meant to suggest that it is okay to use white phosphorous because these are ISIS and al-Nusra controlled cities. Of course, that's not the case, since the whole problem with white phosphorous is that it has a tendency to kill lots of innocent (as in non-Isis, non-al-Nusra, civilians) which is why this is being criticized. Here is a simple way to determine whether this is a legitimate change or just POV pushing: ask "do the sources explicitly state "Islamic State capital of" or "al-Qaeda ruled city of"??? This source does NOT (in fact al-Nusra or al-Qaeda are not even mentioned). This source does mention that Raqqah is ISIS controlled but it also states explicitly "(white phosphorous) is banned for use in densely populated areas or when directly targeted at infantry because it is highly toxic and can burn through skin and bone". This source is not even about the subject matter!

4. As mentioned above, the mention of the "Swedish Doctors for Human Rights" is cherry picking and it is an organization which is not representative of general views. It's a WP:FRINGE organization which is only being quoted by other FRINGE organizations (and apparently, Wikipedia)

5. The problem with the paragraph about human shield is two fold. First, it repeats info found somewhere else in the article. Second, while potentially useful, the way it is worded it suggests that the civilian casualties discussed - the hospitals attacked and the rescue workers bombed - are those human shields. This is of course false. The sources are about different cities, different airstrikes, something altogether different. For example This source DOES NOT EVEN MENTION Russian airstrikes! This is about as clear cut case of WP:SYNTH and misrepresentation of sources as one can get.

Finally, since all of these changes are so problematic, they really do need to be discussed on talk first - something which hasn't really been done by the couple of editors who are insisting on them. That means addressing the points raised rather than just repeating the same irrelevant and erronous argument about WP:TITLE or saying "it's sourced!" (that's a necessary not a sufficient condition). So please stop it with the edit warring and try to get consensus here first. I'm open to including some of this info but it needs to be reworded and accorded due weight.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:55, 3 April 2016 (UTC) [reply]

Somehow I missed your point 5 in the previous discussion. Yes, I agree. This is elaborate propaganda. Fixed. My very best wishes (talk) 19:46, 3 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The WP:POVTITLE is most concerning I think, so I'm going to focus my comment on that. I'll look into the other stuff later. "Attacks on civilians" is not a neutral way of describing it, especially when such reports from the Amnesty International use much softer words (i.e. "suspected Russian air strikes", "attack appeared to have been carried out", "evidence suggesting" and etc.). Also, "Attacks on civilians" is essentially a "war crime" so we don't need to be doubling down and repeating the wording by saying "Reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians". So I agree with most users on this TP that it's POV and that it has to go. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:56, 3 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Attacks on civilians CAN BE a PARTICULAR kind of war crime. But the sources don't limit themselves to just that. They also discuss other potential war crimes. Hence the need to be clear.
And whether the section title is POV or not can be simply determined - how do the sources describe it? And no, sources don't use "softer words". Where you getting that from? Here's how they describe it:
"Tirana Hassan, director of Amnesty's crisis response programme, said the attacks are ongoing - with strikes documented on schools, hospitals and civilian homes."
"The military offensive that the Russian and Syrian government forces opened ... has included extensive use of cluster munitions – inherently indiscriminate and internationally banned weapons."
"The leading human rights organisation said Moscow's air force has not only been targeting civilians and aid workers in Syria over the last week, but that warplanes have been deliberately attacking those attempting to treat the victims."
"An airstrike on a Doctors Without Borders hospital Monday in northern Syria was deliberate and carried out by either Syrian regime or Russian warplanes, the medical nongovernmental organization said. "
These quotes are STRAIGHT FROM THE sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:02, 3 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Section about some other stuff

This is really ridiculous. Getting very sick of the blatant double standards. A) – diff. B) – diff, diff, diff.

We follow reliable sources not editors' own personal feelings or ideologies. Can you please point out where claims are made without sources? Where unreliable sources are used? Thanks.


The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) and Turkish-supported Jaysh al-Islam anti-Assad rebels – "Zahran Alloush, head of Jaysh al Islam, killed in aerial raid". CBC News. 25 December 2015. – were accused of using civilian residents of towns, – "Islamic State digging in in Raqqa, hiding in civilian shadows, amassing human shields". The Japan Times. 18 November 2015. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)"ISIS extremists use Syrian civilians as human shields against Russian strikes". ARA News. 24 January 2016. – Alawite civilians and captured Syrian soldiers as human shields. – "Russia in Syria: Assad loyalists paraded in cages through Damascus by rebels trying to stop air strikes". The Independent. 3 November 2015. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)"Syrian rebels use caged hostages as human shields against airstrikes". International Business Times. 3 November 2015. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help) – Civil rights activist told ARA News that "ISIS militants prevent the people of Manbij and Jarablus from leaving their hometowns despite the fierce airstrikes by Russian warplanes".




According to The Washington Post, "Russian Muslims are split regarding the intervention in Syria, but more are pro- than anti-war." – "Are Russia's 20 million Muslims seething about Putin bombing Syria?". The Washington Post. 7 March 2016. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)




Army of Islam

− Supported by:
 Saudi Arabia
 Turkey – "Are Turkey, Saudi Arabia Pressuring Jordan on a Terror Blacklist?". U.S. News. 30 November 2015. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)"Zahran Alloush, head of Jaysh al Islam, killed in aerial raid". CBC News. 25 December 2015.


-- Tobby72 (talk) 22:15, 3 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I do not see any problem with including info on human shields, unless this is done in a highly misleading and WP:SYN fashion (previous version). However, [40] this edit included also another text that was disputed. My very best wishes (talk) 22:58, 3 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tobby72, if you want to discuss stuff in infobox then 1) start a new section and 2) don't combine your reverts of relevant info with changing stuff in the infobox. It looks like you're trying to change the topic.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:44, 4 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain how the additions [41] specifically violate Wikipedia policies on neutrality. Otherwise, this is just WP:IDONTLIKEIT. -- Tobby72 (talk) 21:25, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You've been asked to discuss any introduction of further content to the infobox, so please stop hopping back and forth from doing just that in the article while WP:BRD is in process. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:27, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not again, please – Human shields

  • Tobby, once again, there is no consensus for these changes. See this talk page, RfC and this discussion. Actually, placing info about human shields on this page is wrong because this suggests they were the same people who were killed by Russian aviation. This page is about Russian military intervention, not about human rights violations in this war in general. In addition, text your inserted (Amnesty International's report "was aimed at causing a stir in the media space with loud groundless conclusions and anti-Russian rhetoric, which is in such great demand in some Western capitals) does sounds like an irrelevant propaganda. This is definitely undue. My very best wishes (talk) 14:33, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT, please. We report what reliable sources say. Section is called "Reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians". The use of human shields in armed conflict is a war crime.
"This page is about Russian military intervention ..."
  • "ISIS extremists use Syrian civilians as human shields against Russian strikes". ARA News. 24 January 2016. – "ISIS militants prevent the people of Manbij and Jarablus from leaving their hometowns despite the fierce airstrikes by Russian warplanes," civil rights activist Issa al-Raei told ARA News in Manbij. "The ISIS terror group is using those civilians as human shields against the Russian airstrikes," al-Raei said.
  • "Russia in Syria: Assad loyalists paraded in cages through Damascus by rebels trying to stop air strikes". The Independent. 3 November 2015. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help) – "The militants, one of the most powerful rebel factions operating in the Douma suburb of Damascus, have been videoed driving at least 100 cages around residential areas on pick-up trucks to pressure the government to call off Russian airstrikes, according to the anti-government Shaam news agency. Air strikes have routinely targeted Douma and other neighbourhoods in the Eastern Ghouta region of the country while rebel groups have retaliated by sending rockets in government controlled areas of the city."
-- Tobby72 (talk) 15:27, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Here is text you included (diff above):
The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) and Turkish-supported Jaysh al-Islam anti-Assad rebels[253] were accused of using civilian residents of towns,[254][255] Alawite civilians and captured Syrian soldiers as human shields.[256][257] Civil rights activist told ARA News that "ISIS militants prevent the people of Manbij and Jarablus from leaving their hometowns despite the fierce airstrikes by Russian warplanes

That is hardly relevant to the subject of this page. Sources you quoted tell also about something slightly different. ISIS militants paraded people on the streets in cages "apparently to deter Syrian and Russian aircraft from further bombing the city of Douma". Should that be included? I would say no because this belongs to crimes by ISIS militants, not by Russian army. My very best wishes (talk) 15:54, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT again. ... Syrian rebels using human shields to halt Russian air strikes. ISIS militants hiding in civilian neighborhoods and preventing people from leaving their hometowns despite Russian air strikes. ... I'd say it is perfectly relevant. -- Tobby72 (talk) 16:19, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
According to quoted sources, the ISIS militants prevented people from leaving their homes during strikes by Syrian and Russian aviation. This is not about Russian military intervention, but about crimes by ISIS. This belongs to Human rights in ISIL-controlled territory. My very best wishes (talk) 16:40, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"The ISIS terror group is using those civilians as human shields against the Russian airstrikes." — How is this not about Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War? And please let's not whitewash the crimes of ISIS. -- Tobby72 (talk) 11:25, 14 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, this is incorrect summary of sources. These sources tell about ISIS militants preventing movement by people during attacks by Syrian, French and Russian aviation, as has been already explained [42]. My very best wishes (talk) 13:27, 14 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
By late February, the Russian airstrikes conducted around 60 airstrikes daily, while the American-led coalition averaged seven. -- Tobby72 (talk) 09:30, 17 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, the sources you provided tell about atrocities by ISIL militants and civilians being killed in attacks by Russian, French and Syrian aviation. Did not they? My very best wishes (talk) 16:28, 17 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"The ISIS terror group is using those civilians as human shields against the Russian airstrikes." It's quite clear and simple. -- Tobby72 (talk) 07:02, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The only thing that is clear and simple is that it's agonisingly bad WP:SYNTH. Stop POV-pushing falsehoods over and over again... and please stop using tags like ammunition to be thrown into articles every time you want to draw attention to yet another WP:POINT to keep flogging. Using tags in this manner is intentionally disruptive, and such use is essentially a WP:GAME strategy. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:28, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The neutrality of the article is clearly disputed. An involved editor should not remove the tag without consensus. Also please refrain from personal attacks. You have been asked to do so numerous times already. -- Tobby72 (talk) 15:14, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jaysh al-Islam and ISIL using human shields

Compromise version: diff per WP:NPOV/Noticeboard — Islamic State war crimes & POV tag — "Simply noticing that "during strikes by Russian aviation people were prevented from leaving their homes by ISIS" in the end of a paragraph somewhere might be OK, but you need a consensus for this on article talk page." Do you agree now? -- Tobby72 (talk) 10:41, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Looks fine to me :) --Dorpater (talk) 13:16, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't a "compromise version". It's just a slightly shorter version of the non-compromise version. It's still undue and off topic.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:34, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also, it's WP:SYNTH. For it NOT to be SYNTHESIS you need a source that says that the reason Russia committed these war crimes, and the reason why it targeted these civilians IS because ISIS used civilians as human shields.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:36, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, this is out of place and belongs to other pages. My very best wishes (talk) 14:18, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that I've struck through the support for the same old SYNTH by an identified sock. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:41, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The militants, one of the most powerful rebel factions operating in the Douma suburb of Damascus, have been videoed driving at least 100 cages around residential areas on pick-up trucks to pressure the government to call off Russian airstrikes" ... WP:SYNTH? Undue and off topic? I don't think so. -- Tobby72 (talk) 12:36, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Section title

To solve this issue I suggest, Tobby72, that you open up an RfC asking whether the section title should be "Reports of war crimes" or "Reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians". This should be straight forward. And since you're the one who wants to change it, you should be the one to file the RfC.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:05, 3 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also like to point out that arguing that WP:TITLE prevents us from writing "attacks on civilians" for the section title is somewhat... absurd. The whole section is about attacks on civilians! If you're claiming that WP:TITLE says that we cannot title a section with a description of what it's actually about, then you're probably reading WP:TITLE wrong.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:41, 4 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus is against you. – diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff (6 different editors). How much more slow edit warring are you intending to persevere with, Marek? Time to drop it. -- Tobby72 (talk) 18:20, 4 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, those three of those diffs are actually not disagreeing with me in substance and I don't really see those editors on the talk page. And then another of those diffs is by a short-term WP:SPA. Sorry, that's not consensus.
Now, if you want to see consensus go ahead and start an RfC on what the title of the section should be. Nothing is stopping you from doing that... except perhaps the fact that it's sort of ridiculous to argue that a section title cannot actually describe what the section text is about.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:53, 6 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nevermind, did it myself.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:03, 6 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Section title

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Consensus to keep the longer section title, "Reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians", because "reports" covers most of the point of "alleged"; and "attacks on civilians" isn't completely subsumed in "war crimes", as not all such attacks are necessarily intentional. --GRuban (talk) 17:40, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Should the title of this section (as of 20:56 April 3) be "Reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians" or should it be "Reports of war crimes"

Here is the text of the section as it appears at the time of this RfC being filed:

Extended content

According to Amnesty International, in late February 2016 Russian warplanes deliberately targeted civilians and rescue workers during their bombing campaign. Documents show attacks on schools, hospitals and civilian homes. The organization has said that "Russia is guilty of some the most egregious war crimes it has seen in decades". The Kremlin has denied these accusations. Video footage and testimony by rescue workers contradict these denials. The director of Amnesty's crisis response program, Tirana Hassan, has said that after bombing civilian targets, the Russian warplanes "loop around" for a second attack to target the humanitarian workers and civilians who are trying to help those have been injured in the first sortie.[1][2]

Human Rights Watch has documented extensive used of banned cluster munitions by Syria and Russia, in violation of United Nations resolution 2139 of February 22, 2014. Human Rights Watch said that while it has not been able to verify whether it was pro-government Syrian forces or Russian forces which used the munitions, the fact that these had not been used prior to Russia's involvement in the war suggests that it is either Russian forces employing them directly, or providing them to the pro-Assad forces, or both.[3]

Médecins Sans Frontières has said that either Syrian regime or Russian warplanes deliberately attacked a hospital in Maarat al-Numan.[4] The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights stated that it was Russian warplanes that destroyed the hospital.[5]

Opposition activists and local witnesses have reported that Russia has used white phosphorus against targets in Al-Raqqah[6] and Idlib,[7] causing civilian casualties with the weapons.[8]

The United Kingdom-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights has also reported that since the initiation of the intervention in September 2015, Russian air strikes have killed 1,000 civilians, including 200 children, by the middle of February, 2016.[9]

These reports, including bombings of two hospitals by Russian Air Force planes, have been denied by Russian officials.[10][11]

References

  1. ^ "Russia Guilty Of Syria War Crimes, Says Amnesty". News.sky.com. 2016-02-21. Retrieved 2016-02-28.
  2. ^ Peter Yeung. "Russia committing war crimes by deliberately bombing civilians and aid workers, says Amnesty International | Middle East | News". The Independent. Retrieved 2016-02-28.
  3. ^ "Russia/Syria: Extensive Recent Use of Cluster Munitions | Human Rights Watch". Hrw.org. Retrieved 2016-02-28.
  4. ^ Tomkiw, Lydia (2016-02-15). "Who Bombed Doctors Without Borders Hospital In Syria? MSF Slams 'Deliberate' Airstrike". Ibtimes.com. Retrieved 2016-02-28.
  5. ^ "UN: Nearly 50 civilians killed in Syria by airstrikes on hospitals, schools". Usatoday.com. 2016-02-16. Retrieved 2016-02-28.
  6. ^ "Syria: Kurds close in on Isis capital of Raqqa as ceasefire looms". International Business Times. February 26, 2016.
  7. ^ "An internal struggle: Al Qaeda's Syrian affiliate is grappling with its identity". Brookings Institute. 31 May 2015.
  8. ^ Withnall, Adam (23 November 2015). "Chemical weapon white phosphorous 'being used in Raqqa air strikes'". The Independent. Retrieved 6 January 2016.
  9. ^ [1]
  10. ^ "Минобороны России: штурмовики США в среду нанесли удары по Алеппо". РИА Новости. Retrieved 2016-03-03.
  11. ^ "Russian defence ministry says Amnesty report on Syria biased, ungrounded". Reuters. 23 December 2015.

Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:03, 6 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I support "Reports of war crimes" per WP:TITLE and WP:POVTITLE.

WP:TITLE clearly states:

Avoid judgmental and non-neutral words; for example, allegation implies wrongdoing, and so should be avoided in a descriptive title. (Exception: articles where the topic is an actual accusation of illegality under law, discussed as such by reliable sources even if not yet proven in a court of law. These are accurately described as "allegations".)
Right, so it says that "allegation" is a non-neutral word, and says explicitly that "allegation" should be avoided in a descriptive title.
And as already pointed out, these are NOT "reports of allegations", they are "reports". It's not that hard to understand.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:49, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, even more neutral would be Human rights concerns or Allegations of war crimes as is the case with many articles:

As such, it is also much more concise that way. Reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians sounds repetitive since war crimes can also mean "civilians attacked". So I see no other reason to repeat similar statements other than a mere desire to achieve repetition for effect. To alleviate such a concern, it's best to make it concise and straight to the point. I have also noticed the language in these sources is much lighter than what the section title portrays it to be (i.e. "suspected Russian air strikes", "attack appeared to have been carried out", "evidence suggesting"). Either that, or they are making claims that they themselves admit are hardly verifiable or not of their own independent observation (i.e. "it has not been able to verify whether it was pro-government Syrian forces or Russian forces", "either Syrian regime or Russian warplanes", or "Opposition activists and local witnesses have reported" and etc.). Therefore, I don't see why the title of that particular section should present these allegations as fact. Étienne Dolet (talk) 08:14, 6 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

These are WP:OTHERSTUFF arguments, in other words inapplicable logical fallacies. In fact at least some of those articles should have THEIR section titles changes. WP:TITLE does not apply here in the way you claim - we are using words straight from the sources (and anyway, WP:TITLE applies to article titles, as has been repeatedly pointed out).
Frankly, it is ABSURD to argue that WP:TITLE says that you cannot have a section title which actually describes the contents of a section. In what world does that make sense? If you're making an argument which is that ridiculous, chances are you're not reading WP:TITLE correctly.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:30, 6 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(and no, as has already been pointed out to you - and you failed to respond - sources do NOT actually use "lighter language". See here. You're cherry picking short phrases out of the sources and quoting them out of context. It's trivial to find different phrases *in the same sources* which use quite strong language)Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:34, 6 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument wasn't convincing for me though, and it still isn't. So I stand by my vote. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:40, 6 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What, that a section title should actually describe what the section is about? Ok, your choice. Just keep in mind that RfC's are not voting, so only policy-backed arguments are taken into consideration, not WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:03, 6 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support "Reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians" - because, per WP:TITLE or just plain common sense, the title of a section needs to describe what the section is about. And this section is precisely about war crimes AND attacks on civilians (and no, neither one is a proper subset of the other).Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:32, 6 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support "Reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians" because it is correctly descriptive. Legacypac (talk) 16:45, 6 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose "Reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians" per WP:TITLE, WP:POVTITLE and WP:MOS — A title should be a recognizable name or description of the topic that is natural, sufficiently precise, concise, and consistent with the titles of related articles. – The provisions in § Article titles (above) generally apply to section headings as well. -- Tobby72 (talk) 20:14, 6 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the title should be sufficiently precise, as in it should describe what the section is actually about. So why do you want to remove that part from the title? The title is consistent with related articles.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:20, 6 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
WP:TITLE states: Avoid judgmental and non-neutral words ... articles where the topic is an actual accusation of illegality under law, discussed as such by reliable sources even if not yet proven in a court of law. These are accurately described as "allegations". -- Tobby72 (talk) 11:12, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No. What is neutral is determined by sources. If sources talk of "reports" rather than "reports of allegations" then we also use "reports". Sticking in the word "alleged" in front of any thing YOUJUSTDONTLIKE is a classic way of WP:WEASELing for POV purposes.
Also, just from the point of pure grammar it doesn't make sense:
"Reports about X" = there are reports which state X happened.
"Reports of alleged X" = there are reports which state there were allegations of X.
"Alleged reports of X" = there are claims that reports exist which state X happened.
See the difference? For the second one to be accurate the reports would have to say that there are allegations. But they don't. They say "X", where X=attacks on civilians. For the third to be accurate the existence of reports would have to be "alleged". But no one is doubting that these reports exist.
To put it simply "Reports of alleged attacks" IS INACCURATE description of what the sources say and as such it MISREPRESENTS sources. The reports don't say "there were alleged attacks". They say "attacks happened".
"Reports" is fine. We can trust Wikipedia readers to decide for themselves whether they believe these reports or not for themselves. There's no need to make these attempts - which misrepresent sources and are inaccurate grammatically - to try and predispose them one way or another.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:34, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
WP:TITLE clearly states: Exception: articles where the topic is an actual accusation of illegality under law, discussed as such by reliable sources even if not yet proven in a court of law. These are accurately described as "allegations". -- Tobby72 (talk) 20:46, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Uh huh. WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:02, 12 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support "Reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians". Given that this is a section title, not the TITLE of an article, it meets with precision as a descriptor. Per TITLE, we are advised that balance should guide title conventions. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I suggest to keep "attacks on civilians" because a number of sources (quoted above) tell literally about deliberate "attacks on civilians", and that is precisely what is going on in Syria. My very best wishes (talk) 02:36, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I Support Neither Option For accuracy and npov it should be something like Reports alleging war crimes or Reports of alleged war crimes or the suggested Allegations of war crimes. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:57, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In a way the word "Reports" is to some extent redundant with the word "alleged" except for that "alleged" is a WP:WEASEL. We also have WP:ALLEGED. By this logic *everything* is "alleged". Perhaps we should rename this article to Alleged Russian military intervention in Syria since we "only" have reports of Russia being there? Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:28, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also see my comment above. "Reports of alleged war crimes" is NOT accurate. That wording would mean that there are reports, which state there were "alleged war crimes". But the reports do not speak of "alleged war crimes", they speak of "war crimes", period. It's just that some Wikipedia editors choose not to believe these reports, and they wish to make sure that the readers of the article come away with the same... point of view.
Here's an example. If a source said "Amnesty International stated that there were allegations of war crimes" then "Reports of alleged war crimes" would be correct. But if a source says "Amnesty International stated that there were war crimes" then "Reports of war crimes" is correct. Subject, meet predicate, and both of you wave to adjective, which is standing off far away minding its own business.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:39, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support "Reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians". Attacks on civilians are not, by default, war crimes. i.e. there are two separate, but related topics therefore the heading should reflect that Hollth (talk) 04:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I was originally going to agree with you, but after some brief research it seems attacks on civilians are indeed by default war crimes, and so they are not separate topics. Banedon (talk) 03:36, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Banedon: Please read WP:WINARS and note, also, that the article is tagged for multiple problems. What we do have is multiple reliable sources calling these 'war crimes' ergo, per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, these are being described as war crimes and 'attacks on civilians' separately. As editors, we don't cherry pick definitions according to our own personal point of view, nor by scholarly debates over what constitutes a 'war crime'. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:49, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Of course I'm not citing Wikipedia, but rather the sources cited by Wikipedia. The war crime article includes statements such as:
  1. In regard to the strategic bombing during World War II, it should be noticed that at the time, there was no international treaty or instrument protecting a civilian population specifically from attack by aircraft, therefore the aerial attacks on civilians were not officially war crimes. (by implication, there are now international treaties specifically protecting civilians from attack by aircraft)
  2. War crimes also included deliberate attacks on citizens and property of neutral states as they fall under the category of non-combatants, as at the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
There are four sources backing up these statements, all of which seem reliable to me. I don't understand the rest of what you write. If we do have multiple reliable sources calling attacks on civilians war crimes, then isn't "attacks on civilians" unnecessary? Banedon (talk) 03:56, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The use of white phosphorous against the opposing military, for example, is a war crime unto itself, so conflating 'war crimes' as if they automatically mean civilian casualties is misleading for the reader. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:06, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No one here has ever conflated the two. I don't know where you came up with that. "War crimes" can mean both civilian and military targets. That's why "attacks on civilians" is repetitive and useless. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:16, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Iryna, so are you suggesting attacking civilians is somehow not a war crime? Étienne Dolet (talk) 03:59, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@EtienneDolet: I don't know what you've read into my observation, but of course attacks on civilians are a war crime! I am countering Banedon's assessment of 'war crime' being essentially one and the same as attacks on civilians as being war crimes. We have two distinct kinds of war crimes being reported: the use of chemical weapons against another military force, as well as attacks on civilians. I've already stated my case for "Reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians". I would, however, be happy to change my preference to "Reports of war crimes: attacks on civilians and biological warfare". The majority of the supporting RS are not discussing the attacks on civilians as being 'war crimes', but are describing them as attacks on civilians, therefore I'm not conflating what sources say with the 'academic' definition of 'war crime' for the header in question. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:17, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
But no one here is separating the two. To make myself clear: "War crimes" can also mean crimes conducted against both the military and the civilian population. Therefore, "Reports of war crimes" is succinct enough to encapsulate everything the section talks about. Should we also add stuff about "cluster munitions" in the section title as well? In fact, why don't we switch the section title with the section itself? Because at this rate, the title will get longer than the section itself. In my view, your proposal is worse. It's simply too long and repetitive for a simple section title. In fact, in my 10 years of editing Wikipedia, I never remember seeing a colon in a section title just to further describe what already has been described. This is just getting ludicrous. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:40, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'll offer another suggestion which is even more succinct: "Reported war crimes". They're not simply 'reports of': they already been reported and are war crimes. In a couple of instances, the perpetrator may be unclear, but they are war crimes. As I've already commented below, however, my preference is now Attacks on civilians and other war crimes because 'reports' was a superfluous descriptor in the first instance. My suggested header was actually a bit of (probably misplaced) flippancy on my behalf, but I'm of the conviction that "Reports of war crimes" is borderline WP:EUPHEMISM. Reported is already on record, whereas reports implies hearsay. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:04, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've already aforementioned what I believe the title of the section should be. Don't need to repeat myself over and over again here. Étienne Dolet (talk) 05:25, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - if we believe the war crime article, then attacks on civilians (who are by definition non-combatants) constitutes a war crime. In that sense "attacks on civilians" is unnecessary. Banedon (talk) 03:36, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For attacks on civilians to be war crimes they have to be intentional. And indeed that accusation has been made. But it is possible that not all of the attacks on civilians by Russia were deliberate. So it's not redundant. I guess if you wanted to be precise the title could be something like Attacks on civilians and other war crimes.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:22, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I've actually applied the use of biological warfare to the equation and suggested Reports of war crimes: attacks on civilians and biological warfare... but I'm amenable to Attacks on civilians and other war crimes. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:34, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Include both terms (War crimes and Civilian attacks), for a number of reasons, the two are closely related, but are not synonomous nor is either a 'sub-set' of the other. Also the same incident may be characterised as having elements of one or the other or both by different sources. There are going to be difficulties in using all available sources in such a situation. I see no need to put 'reports of' or 'allegations of' in the section title, so long as the text is clear from the outset that these ARE 'reported' or 'alleged' to have taken place. Pedantic detail, but whilst 'Civilian attacks' is OK for the section title, text should be 'attacks on civilians'. Summoned by bot Pincrete (talk) 20:11, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My position remains unchanged – "Attacks on civilians and other war crimes" is violation of WP:TITLE, WP:POVTITLE, WP:MOS and WP:NPOV. Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia, written from a neutral point of view and based on reliable sources and objectivity.
Perhaps I can suggest an alternative: Accusations of war crimes. Do you agree now? -- Tobby72 (talk) 11:25, 14 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's just another way to try and WP:WEASEL it. The sources do not say "there are reports of accusations of war crimes". They say "there are reports of war crimes". We follow sources.
And it's [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT|NOTSURPRISING your position remains unchanged. Look, if you think Wikipedia "is an online encyclopedia, written from a neutral point of view and based on reliable sources and objectivity" and if reliable sources say "there are reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians" then the title "Reports of war crimes and attacks on civilians" IS the neutral and objective title.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:58, 14 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Tobby72, it's possible that your remark/question above is directed at me. I am neutral as to whether accusations of/reports of is necessary so long as the text is clear that this is what they are. Omitting either/both does not imply that these ARE war crimes, merely that the subject of the section is 'war crimes', who has accused/reported, what they have said etc. I concur with 'Marek' that 'reports of accusations' of rumours, of hints, of the possibility of? is pure 'weasel'.
The necessity for both terms (war crimes & civilian attacks) is that source A discussing incident(s) X may claim that 'an attack on civilians took place, which is a war crime', source B may give a similar account of incident(s) X, claiming an (intentional?) attack on a civilian target, but omit the term 'war crime', or not state intentionality. Clearly these two accounts are making similar points about the same incident(s) and belong together, and it is academic to many people whether the attacks were intentional/careless/inadvertent, but the 'civilian attack=war crime' argument made above is WP:synth. Not all such attacks are war crimes (when accidental or careless or based on misinformation) and civilian attacks are not the only kind of war crime. So the short answer to your question is NO, I don't think that 'Accusations of war crimes' is an improvement. Though 'Reports/Accusations/Claims of attacks on civilians and war crimes', covers all the bases, the only objection I can see being length and clumsiness. Pincrete (talk) 18:16, 14 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit request on April 6 2016

Within the "Since 26 February 2016 (cessation of hostilities)"-section of the "Operations by Russian military forces"-section, the same source (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia-pullout-idUSKCN0WG23C) is cited twice for the same claim (The "The move was announced on the day when peace talks on Syria resumed in Geneva"-claim). Isn't that redundant? Shouldn't one of them be removed?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.111.69.45 (talk) 21:24, 6 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

 Fixed Thank you for your vigilance, IP 2.111.69.45. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:17, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong casualties number

You have confused the number of casualties of the Islamic State and the rest of the opposition. Your own source says 1.626 dead for IS and 1.586 for the other guys, but the page says the opposite.

http://www.syriahr.com/en/2016/03/31/russian-warplanes-kill-5081-civilians-40-of-them-were-civilians/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nabarzanes (talk • contribs) 16:08, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Video footage contradicts denials

User:Volunteer Marek, regarding this revert: Firstly, the article's text 'Video footage and testimony by rescue workers contradict these denials' is based on a Sky news claim, not an Amnesty claim. Secondly, while Amnesty claims 'serial attacks' on rescue workers, Sky says of the video 'evidence obtained by Sky News suggests that this is not the case. Footage filmed in Aleppo five days ago shows the graphic aftermath of what's claimed to be a Russian airstrike'.

As I say in my edit reason, IF this material is used, it should be clearly attributed to Sky (not implied to be Amnesty) and, it should definitely not be phrased in Wiki-voice as at present, since even Sky is exercising caution by using the words I have enboldened.

Personally I think Sky's claim too weak to use and intend to remove it, though you are welcome to re-add it ATTRIBUTED and accurately relecting what Sky ACTUALLY says (that they say they have seen evidence that, if true, plausibly contradicts?). Pincrete (talk) 15:35, 15 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Volunteer Marek, partial apologies, if one follows a link within the Skynews cite, it leads to the Amnesty statement, that statement makes similar claims about video and other evidence. Amnesty says they have taken measures to verify the video (they detail what measures), however they are still using 'suggest this contradicts', rather than asserting factually that 'it does contradict'. I stand by my main points, that Wiki-voice should not be used and that they are saying 'suggests' rather than 'does' and that the original Amnesty should be cited as the source. If Amnesty are being cautious about the 'factuality' of this claim, we should doubly be so. Pincrete (talk) 19:51, 15 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Volunteer Marek, I was summoned here for the RfC's, I don't pretend to know very much about the subject. HOWEVER you cannot turn very equivocal statements by Sky and Amnesty, that video footage 'suggests' Russia is not telling the truth, into factual statements in wiki-voice. The claim, that video evidence exists that flatly and unquestionably contradict Russia's denials, is an extraordinary claim. It needs something much stronger than Sky or Amnesty's use of 'suggest'. Personally I think it actually weakens Amnesty's measured account to include it at all. Pincrete (talk) 12:26, 17 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • There is nothing "extraordinary" about this. To the contrary, this is something claimed by majority of RS on this subject. First of all, this is claimed by Amnesty International [43]. Claims in the title and summary like Syrian and Russian forces targeting hospitals as a strategy of war and Russian and Syrian government forces appear to have deliberately and systematically targeted hospitals and other medical facilities over the last three months to pave the way for ground forces to advance on northern Aleppo, an examination of airstrikes by Amnesty International has found are very much unequivocal. Anoter source about the same. Yet another RS [44]. Yest another [45]. And so it goes. This is not Sky News at all.My very best wishes (talk) 16:20, 17 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My very best wishes, please read my comments more carefully, what is 'extraordinary' is the single sentence (in wiki-voice) 'Video footage and testimony by rescue workers contradict these denials' ie it is a fact that we (WP) know that Rus is lying! The original statements by both Sky and Amnesty are hedged in with 'suggests' and other equivocations, they believe the video to be authentic certainly, Amnesty has taken such steps as it could to authenticate the video, certainly, but they are still cautious about claiming 'proof'. Why is WP stating in direct speech that such proof exists? Pincrete (talk) 17:32, 17 April 2016 (UTC) … … addendum, if used I suggest something like "Amnesty also claim that the testimony of rescue workers, and video footage which they obtained and which they believe to be of a Russian airstrike, both contradict these denials'. Pincrete (talk) 17:53, 17 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, I do not understand what this is all about because both versions [46] tell the same: Kremlin denies what people on the ground have seen by their own eyes. My very best wishes (talk) 18:45, 17 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My very best wishes, from my point of view, it was about the single sentence in Wiki-voice 'Video footage and testimony by rescue workers contradict these denials', which 'Marek' re-inserted twice, possibly not knowing on one occasion as he was reverting several changes. Everything else claimed by Amnesty at present in the article is 100% RS and neutrally phrased IMO. That sentence turns an equivocal Sky and Amnesty claim 'we think this suggests .... if it is what it seems to be', into a statement of fact. The matter I believe is now resolved.Pincrete (talk) 20:13, 17 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think that phrase could be easily excluded, although it does not really make any difference. However, version by VM also included another phrase: "Documents show attacks on schools, hospitals and civilian homes.. That one I think should be included. My very best wishes (talk) 13:09, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My very best wishes, emphatic NO. 'Amnesty/Sky/whoever also say that they have/have seen.... video/documents showing attacks on schools, hospitals and civilian homes', could be used, if they do unequivocally say that. But when I looked at the Amnesty + Sky statements, they were very equivocal, that may be for many reasons, but whatever the reasons, you cannot turn a claim that evidence suggests into a statement of fact. Pincrete (talk) 13:46, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
But here are the sources [47],[48], and they are very much unequivocal. Do you really have any doubt that Russian airplanes in fact attacked civilian facilities after reading these and other sources? I think this is all either "beyond the reasonable doubt" or merely a matter of fact. My very best wishes (talk) 14:47, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Whether I personally am more inclined to believe Amnesty or Russian spokesmen is irrelevant. What IS relevant is that a) these are what Amnesty says/believes is happening, not what WP (or you or I) knows to be the truth, therefore it must be given their voice not ours. .... b) The Amnesty press release opens Rus + Syr forces appear to have deliberately and systematically targeted hospitals and other medical facilities over the last three months .... an examination of airstrikes by Amnesty International has found. If Amnesty is being cautious by saying 'appear', we should be even more cautious in our wording.
I do not object to any of these claims being used (concisely etc.), I object to attributable 'claims' being turned into objective 'facts' and omitting the 'cautions' that Amnesty etc. are using. IMHO, the caution that Amnesty shows strengthen's their credibility, not casts doubt on their claims, but regardless, we cannot 'beef-up' their claims nor present them as facts. Pincrete (talk) 15:23, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Honestly, I think this whole thread is a little ... unhelpful, especially since you already changed the wording as you wanted [49] and no one objected. The actual question is not the bombings of civilian facilities, but why these bombings were undertaken. According to some RS, they were undertaken to undermine any hopes for peaceful resolution in the country and send the wave of refugees to Europe, because that was that actual goal of the Russian military campaign (just a random example). Perhaps that should be included, but obviously only as an opinion, rather than as a statement of fact. My very best wishes (talk) 16:04, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I started the thread to explain why I had removed two short sentences (twice). I re-opened it in response to your remarks/suggestions. Since we are now in agreement that 'claims' must be clearly attributed and since we would probably agree that more RS claims could probably be inserted, matter closed! Pincrete (talk) 16:15, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

SOHR characterized as pro-opposition

The SOHR is characterized as pro-opposition or anti-Assad by the following sources:

This is not something SOHR appears to be ashamed of. Many of these sources, which characterize the organization as pro-opposition or anti-Assad, are uploaded and published on their official website. For example:

The POV tag seems justified in that regard. The SOHR's partiality towards the conflict is widely accepted. Pro-opposition is one of the most common characterizations of this organization. Until this article doesn't characterize the SOHR as such, a POV tag is necessary. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:32, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What matter is that it is a reliable sources, per WP:RS. Indeed, the sources in the article aren't just SOHR but other reliable sources. Whether it's "pro-opposition" or not is actually immaterial to its reliability. But in the interest of compromise I'm fine with the qualifier "pro-opposition" being added in text if that gets the POV tag removed.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:41, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with such a compromise. However, under such a compromise, there's going to be an issue of WP:UNDUE weight in the lead since the SOHR is characterized as a siding with a belligerent faction of the conflict. But I'm willing to have those concerns assessed for another time. Étienne Dolet (talk) 05:22, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:54, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 17 May 2016

Under the section for civilian casualties it says, "as of March 2106 per SOHR" I suggest that the "2106" be changed to a 2016. Bbirman (talk) 14:41, 17 May 2016 (UTC)bbirman  Done Thanks for pointing that out - Arjayay (talk) 15:06, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Stratfor and attacked Russian base(Since 26 February 2016)

Actually T4 Tiyas base is a Syrian one and Mig25 is also Syrian aircraft(as Stratfor itself said).Russian MoD commented this satellite images as a "wreckage of the Syrian helicopters which were left after the battle". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.241.12.14 (talk) 22:25, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Including material on human shields

I'm bringing the discussion back here from the NPOV noticeboard, where I've been having a dialog with Tobby72 about the necessity to include this material for NPOV balance. As I understand it, Volunteer Marek and Iryna Harpy are objecting to the material because of an implied WP:SYNTH, while My very best wishes believes that the information does not belong in this article, but rather in an article about ISIL. As to the latter argument, the article mentions the Turks shooting down a Russian jet, and it includes an entire section on international diplomatic reactions, so I can't understand why ISIL's response would be off-topic in this article.

The article WP:NOTSYNTH mentions that "Synth is not mere juxtaposition" and that unintended implications can be resolved by clear writing. In this case, perhaps the problem could be overcome by putting the information in its own section? Or, I still believe my idea of explicitly stating that "war crimes by one party to a conflict, do not justify retaliatory war crimes by the other party" has merit, one source for this view is Amnesty International. JerryRussell (talk) 05:06, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTSYNTH is just an essay someone wrote. WP:SYNTH is the actual policy and it prohibits combining info from different sources to draw or imply a conclusion which is not found in either. That's exactly what's going on here. In fact, this is sort of textbook example.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:09, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What Volunteer Marek's said. We've been through this in spades on this talk page already. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:28, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"In this case, perhaps the problem could be overcome by putting the information in its own section?" — Thanks for your suggestion, JerryRussell. I agree. See diff. -- Tobby72 (talk) 09:44, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
They use people as human shields not only against Russian aviation, but during bombings by other countries, and not only bombings. Therefore, I do not think it belongs to this page.My very best wishes (talk) 14:36, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Volunteer Marek and Iryna Harpy, WP:SYNTH is not a reason for excluding relevant information from reliable sources. It simply states that sources cannot be conjoined together to imply a conclusion which is not stated by the sources. Tobby72 and I have suggested several approaches now for presenting the material in a way that explicitly prevents the implied synthesis you are concerned about. Back on the noticeboard, I see that Iryna Harpy has also argued WP:DUE and that Tiptoethroughtheminefield has argued that giving the material its own section would be UNDUE. I don't have a strong opinion about how the material should be presented, but I do believe it's relevant. WP:DUE says that all sources should be presented in proportion to their prevalence, and in this case, clearly the international press has seen this as an important aspect of the conflict. My very best wishes is still arguing that the material is irrelevant, but I don't understand his reasoning. If the Turks shot down a Syrian helicopter in 2013, does that mean we can't mention that they shot down a Russian jet in 2015?
I agree with Iryna Harpy that this has already been discussed on the talk page. This is why Tobby72 brought the matter to the NPOV noticeboard. So now I've wandered into the discussion as well. Looking back at the history, I see a lot of controversy, many editors involved, and never anything resembling a consensus. So what happens next? Mediation? Arbitration? Another three months of slow edit warring? Or can we reach some sort of agreement that satisfies everyone, right here? JerryRussell (talk) 15:59, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I notice that the information about Russian war crimes are featured prominently in the lede. For NPOV balance, I believe that the information about ISIS war crimes in the same conflict, deserve to be mentioned in the lede as well. JerryRussell (talk) 16:15, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, the information about ISIS war crimes in the same conflict should not be described on this page because this page is on a different subject. This is very simple. This info is about ISIS using people as human shields during this war. Hence it belongs to pages about ISIS or human rights violations during the war, not to this page. What should happen? User Tobby72 should drop this issue because there is no consensus for inclusion. This is nothing special and happens all the time on many pages. There is only one difference: Tobby72 did not drop this issue a few months ago when everything was already obvious, and continued this irrelevant dispute on a subject of no importance. My very best wishes (talk) 16:28, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's interesting that so many editors are opposed to including this material, but so many different reasons are given. IMO, none of them stand up to scrutiny. As to the many editors who have weighed in on the other side, it's interesting that they don't seem to stick around. Better things to do? Perhaps. One was subsequently attacked (elsewhere, for other activities, I think?) and banned as a sock puppet -- but the thing is, sock puppets are human beings too. Yes, I do understand, Wikipedia couldn't function without the ability to enforce bans and blocks.

Anyhow, I've been continuing to do some reading on this topic. There's a logical problem: if Russian forces were trying to cause civilian casualties, then human shields tactics would be ineffective, wouldn't they? I mean, the brutal Russians would just bomb those hapless human shields, right? Yet there seems to be no evidence that any of the civilian hostages were then killed by the Russians.

Furthermore, there were ~9000 bombing sorties and, by the highest estimate, <2000 civilian casualties. A horrific total to be sure, but if the bombings were primarily intended to kill civilians, that would be a remarkably ineffective campaign, wouldn't it? I was curious about Russian claims that reports of casualties were Western propaganda, and found that when you drill down on it, that's only part of the story. Is Pravda considered a reliable source? Pravda says, here, that part of the problems is that Medecins Sans Frontiers operates hospitals in ISIS controlled areas that are camouflaged, so that Russian strikes occasionally hit such targets by accident. Maybe that should be in the article too? JerryRussell (talk) 17:44, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My very best wishes, I have been reading the arbitration case in which the allegation was made that you and user:Volunteer Marek were tag team edit warring to suppress materials. Volunteer Marek claims the case was dropped for lack of evidence, but that isn't exactly what happened. Arbitrator Opabinia regalis encouraged everyone to revert less often, and the consensus of arbitrators was that this matter is already covered by discretionary sanctions. They said they will re-assess the matter if these sanctions aren't working. So what does this mean? Can Tobby72 and I ask for discretionary sanctions to be applied against MVBW and VM for tag team edit warring on this question? I must say I'm curious, why you and VM would put so much energy into a dispute if it is of "no importance". JerryRussell (talk) 18:15, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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