Talk:Same-sex marriage

"Marriage equality"

I can actually see Crumpled Fire's point, though he's treading perilously close to WP:3RR in the way he's editing. "Marriage equality" is not a synonym for "same-sex marriage"; it is a term for the legal recognition of SSM or the campaign for such recognition. On the other hand, since we don't have a "campaign for same-sex marriage" or "marriage equality movement" article, it's appropriate for "marriage equality" to redirect here. Whatever one might think of polygamous or incestuous marriages, it is not currently used to refer to campaigns for their legalisation. All that being said, I think a reading of MOS:BOLDTITLE would lead us to bold the words as a "significant alternative title". - htonl (talk) 12:48, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I have raised no objections to including the term in the lead paragraph, but I completely disagree that it is in any way an alternative title for marriage between same-sex persons. A very simple way to tell if "Marriage equality" truly fits the criteria of an alternative title is to see if the opening sentence makes sense with it: "Marriage equality is marriage between two persons of the same biological sex or gender identity". It doesn't, so it doesn't fit the criteria. Crumpled Fire (talk) 13:05, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

"Alternative title" does not mean the same thing as "synonym". This article could reasonably be titled "Marriage equality" (though it would not be as good a choice of title as the current one). - htonl (talk) 13:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Really? You honestly think this article could be titled that? Please, explain how the opening sentence of an article about marriage between persons of the same-sex would be phrased using that title.Crumpled Fire (talk) 13:44, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Obviously you would have to rewrite the lead. I suppose it would be something like "Marriage equality refers to the extension of marriage to include couples of the same sex...". Of course it's more awkward, which is why I am certainly not advocating for it. - htonl (talk) 14:23, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd argue that "marriage equality" amounts to a POV, while "gay marriage" and "same-sex marriage" simply neutrally describe the phenomenon, which is what Wikipedia is for. Fifty years from now or fifty years ago, the title "same-sex marriage" would still be appropriate, but "marriage equality" would not (just like if the campaign for interracial marriage had been called "marriage equality"). That said, it is neutral to explain that same-sex marriage proponents currently refer to the campaign to legalize it as "marriage equality", which is why the redirect lands you at this article. Crumpled Fire (talk) 14:39, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd agree that "marriage equality" is a somewhat POV term, which is another reason why it isn't the title of the article. That doesn't mean it necessarily shouldn't be bolded. For a comparable example, the lead in the article Opposition to the legalization of abortion also bolds "pro-life movement" and "anti-abortion movement". - htonl (talk) 15:14, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I think both of you make a good case, and the MOS neither recommends nor deprecates bolding a non-synonymous alternative title. (In fact, it doesn't appear to discuss the possibility.) Let me ask you, Hton: what bothers you about the current version (with the phrase in italics)? Rivertorch (talk) 16:20, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't particularly bother me, actually, but I think it is of benefit to those who reach this article through the marriage equality redirect to have the term easily visible in the lead. In any case, having the phrase in bold was the status quo for almost a year (since this edit, to be precise) so maybe you should ask CF what bothers him about that version. - htonl (talk) 18:08, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I think out of WP:CONSISTENCY, as htonl showed regarding the way other articles have done this, and being that it has been bold for nearly a year without issue, the discontent shouldn't be rested on the one maintaining consistency, it should rest on Crumpled Fire. And frankly, the manner in which (s)he is editing lacks a civil tone and WP:3RR recognition. – Teammm ^{Let's Talk! :)} 18:40, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, I had thought I might ask you both, one at a time. (Sometimes that help to focus a discussion.) For those who reach the article from Marriage equality, there is a hatnote prominently placed just above the lede that shows the redirect. That, combined with the phrase's appearing in italics in the first paragraph of the lede, would seem to satisfy the need for easy visibility. That it was bolded for almost a year is a point in favor of its not being changed without a clear explanation, but I think Crumpled Fire has tried to provide one. Let me ask you, Crumpled: if bolding of non-synonymous terms is permissible by policy and precedent, what is it about this particular context that leads you to make an issue of it here? Rivertorch (talk) 05:37, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

This article is about the institution of same-sex marriage. If it was an article for the proposal of same-sex marriage, it could be bold. 'Marriage equality' is therefore not an alternative name for this article. Crzyclarks (talk) 16:11, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you made sense. This is all trivial and unimportant. – Teammm ^{(talk · email)} 15:11, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

How does it not make sense? Bolding is used for alternative names of the article. As this is for the institution of same-sex marriage, "marriage equality" is not an alternative name. It could be debated as the alternative name for other articles such as the proposal for same-sex marriage, though it may be biased in order to do so. Can I de-bold it now? Crzyclarks (talk) 21:32, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

We bold the topic of an article. ME is arguably a primary topic. — kwami (talk) 22:41, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

According to [1], it is the alternative name of the article. Crzyclarks (talk) 23:05, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

So can I de-bold it now? Crzyclarks (talk) 15:13, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Again, unless there is a clear consensus for your change, you should not move to make it. --Scientiom (talk) 15:42, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for a valid argument to keep it bold. Crzyclarks (talk) 19:31, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Obviously, you and the one other person I saw make your same point haven't a valid argument. It's been bold for a whole year, marriage equality is used to refer to same-sex marriage on a universal basis, and it redirects here. Don't you have something else to edit perhaps? – Teammm ^{(talk · email)} 21:00, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Marriage equality would be a result of same-sex marriage, however it is not an alternative name for the institution of same-sex marriage. Unfortunately my time is being taken up with nonsense. Crzyclarks (talk) 21:30, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Denmark - wrong date

Same-sex marriage was passed in the Danish Parliament on June 7, 2012, not on June 6 as is currently stated in the article. Please correct it. - Sebastian Gay (talk) 14:51, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Done. Ron 1987 (talk) 15:09, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Confusing Colour of Israel

I understand that Israel cannot allow full gay marriage. However, the Knesset has made it so that almost every single right afforded to straight couples is available to gays. Israel's colour right now just states that it recognises foreign gay marriages, which I know it does, however shouldn't the darker blue colour trump that, if they also have highly inclusive partnership rights?

I agree and have changed the map to reflect that. - htonl (talk) 00:32, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

No, it shouldn't. Recognition of marriage trumps not allowing marriage at all. In Israel it is possible to be married. In other countries with this shade, it is not. — kwami (talk) 19:36, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I did explain further at commons:File talk:World homosexuality laws.svg#Change to Israel - perhaps we could continue the discussion there. - htonl (talk) 19:57, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

okay — kwami (talk) 20:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, for Denmark, is marriage possible in the kingdom, or only in the country? — kwami (talk) 19:37, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Greenland and the Faroes have home rule so the marriage law does not automatically apply there. Greenland did adopt the registered partnerships law. - htonl (talk) 19:57, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Children and the family errata

The article claims that;

"Scientific research has been consistent in showing that lesbian and gay parents are as fit and capable as heterosexual parents, and their children are as psychologically healthy and well-adjusted as children reared by heterosexual parents. According to scientific literature reviews, there is no evidence to the contrary."

I believe that this statement lacks neutrality. Data samples are too small to come to any conclusive assumptions. Elvesier's Social Science Research published two articles stating:

1) "The available data, which are drawn primarily from small convenience samples, are insufficient to support a strong generalizable claim either way." Marks, L 2012 Same-sex parenting and children's outcomes: A closer examination of the American psychological association's brief on lesbian and gay parenting, Social Science Research 41, 735-751

2) "The empirical claim that no notable differences exist must go." Regnerus, M 2012 How different are the adult children of parents who have same-sex relationships? Findings from the New Family Structures Study, Social Science Research 41, 752-770

3) "The New Family Structures Study also clearly reveals that children appear most apt to succees well as adults... when they spend their entire childhood with their married mother and father, and especially when the parents remain married to the present day." Regnerus, M 2012 How different are the adult children of parents who have same-sex relationships? Findings from the New Family Structures Study, Social Science Research 41, 752-770

I believe that the article should be modified to represent these and other findings.

Regards, FGC2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fgc2012 (talk • contribs) 11:08, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about the Marks paper, but Regnerus' study has no bearing on committed or married same-sex parents (and hence no bearing on this article) as what his study described as "gay fathers" and "lesbian mothers" was anyone who had ever had a same-sex relationship. Hence he was comparing opposite-sex married couples with all sorts of cases of divorced parents, single parents, etc. etc. He was emphatically not comparing opposite-sex married parents with same-sex married parents. See for example [2] and [3]. - htonl (talk) 11:50, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

In regards to the Slate article, Regnerus says "I’m not claiming that all the previous research on this subject is bunk" [4]. He admits his limitations, especially in dealing with a database of over 15,000 entries. I recommend reading his article rather than a commentary on it.

Doctors 4 the Family also present an argument claiming that raising children in a same-sex environment may be harmful to them. [5]

I personally believe that we will not get any conclusive data on the issue for another 10-20 years when we will begin to research countries that have legalised same-sex marriage in the past decade (Canada and most of Europe) and see the impacts of parenting without the stigma generally associated with same-sex couples and parents. Until that time there will continue to be debate over the issue.

All this brings me back to my original point, the article cannot state that "there is no evidence to the contrary" when there are papers out there which refute this point. I would replace the "no evidence" with "little evidence" or "evidence to the contrary lacks appropriate peer review."

Regards,

Fgc2012

A cottage industry trying to discredit parenting by same-sex couples. AvocadosTheorem (talk) 20:33, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi Fgc2012, I must respectfully disagree with your claim that the statement isn't neutral. The statement is actually a fact and is neutral. We discussed the study on the LGBT parenting talk page and have excluded it from the article. Specifically because:

1. Mark Regnerus' study only evaluates children who come from broken heterosexual marriages/relationships, where one parent has been or is now in a same-sex relationship. (in other words, a gay parent was in the closet living as a heterosexual)
2. The study doesn't evaluate children raised by gay couples.

• Researchers criticize new study questioning same-sex parenting (archived)
• First Look at Mark Regnerus’s Study on Children of Parents In Same-Sex Relationships (archived)
• Dad and dad vs. mom and dad (archived)
• Study of Gay Parenting Draws Criticism - ABC News (archived)
• Social Science Malpractice: Slandering Same Sex Couples as Parents (archived)
• Further comments on the papers by Marks and Regnerus (archived)
• Overview: Three Responses to Mark Regnerus’s Study of Children of Parents In Same-Sex Relationships (archived)
• Gay Parents Study: Dollarship Disguised as Scholarship
• National Organization for Marriage Hiding Ties to 'Objective' Anti-Gay Parenting Study
• Do Children of Same-Sex Parents Really Fare Worse?
• Back in the Gay: Does a new study indict gay parenthood or make a case for gay marriage?
• A Faulty “Gay Parenting” Study
• Are Gay Parents Really Worse For Children? How a New Study Gets Everything Wrong
• Sign Petition: Help Launch Investigation into Anti-Gay Junk Science Study – Teammm ^{(talk · email)} 23:39, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Greetings Teamm,

For the record, I only paid attention to ScienceDirect article Further comments on the papers by Marks and Regnerus as I avoid blog article because they are more opinionated than factual. There is scientific literature reviews that contradict the position stated in my opening argument. Regardless of the critiques Marks (2012) and Regnerus (2012), it is still considered scientific literature.

Also, isn't Sarantakos (1996) considered sciencific literature? (Sotirios Sarantakos, 1996 Children in three contexts: Family, education and social development, Children of Australia, vol. 21, no. 3, pp. 23-31)

I would much rather follow the advise of Amato [6] and rephrase the line as "Studies overwhelmingly show that children of lesbian and gay parents are not disadvantaged..."

Regards, Fgc2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fgc2012 (talk • contribs) 10:34, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

• My point was, the study doesn't evaluate gay couples' ability to raise children compared to opposite-sex couples. In fact, it was the opposite-sex couple that raised the child within the study (one where there was a closeted gay parent). The only conclusion that you can make from this is that where a closeted gay parent comes out to their "heterosexual family", it is likely to have a negative impact on them, which is obvious and has nothing to do with gay couples raising children. So, what are you trying to say about this study in this article? By the way, while some of those articles may be opinion, it nevertheless is factual how they interpreted the actual study. – Teammm ^{(talk · email)} 10:48, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me that we are working with tiny samples here. There may be a million "studies" all concluding the same thing. But there are very few homosexual couples that have raised children from a very young age (birth?) to an age when we can say that they are relatively free from "problems." Age 30?  :) So reliable studies should be on parents who were raising children from (say) 1982+ which might have been (what?) 10,000 couples in the world? And then obtaining a sample of them? Assuming that "divorce" rates do not exceed those of heterosexual couples (which doesn't seem to be the case), say 50%. Having dozens of "authorities" state unequivocally that same sex parents have no worse affect that opposite sex parents seems not only premature, but almost deliberately political and pov. Student7 (talk) 14:04, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

According to studies/research, there are over 2 million or so same-sex couples raising children in the United States alone. The number worldwide would therefore be in the *dozens of millions*. --112.134.183.115 (talk) 14:14, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

• Student7, you're very mistaken. There have been decades (meaning more than one) of study of children who were raised by gay couples from birth and and from very young ages where the children would not have known their original parents. In the United States alone, there are approximately 2 million children being raised right now by gay couples, which doesn't include the children in those past decades, which have been the source of study and the conclusion that children raised by gay couples are just as happy and well-adjusted as their peers. It's literally not premature and not POV. What you're doing, by guessing a number of gay couples there were in the world, is unreliable. You do know that 10,000 couples = 20,000 people? There are at least 100,000+ adults right now in the U.S. alone who were raised by gay couples who were born in the decade 1980-90. The consensus on the outcome of children raised by gay couples is very sound and reliable. And frankly, it's also common sense. Why would the gender of the two parents matter if those two parents do what they're supposed to for the child? There are many types of families, and always will be. I find some people's rationale and questions a bit ignorant. They're not thinking much. (not directed at you) – Teammm ^{(talk · email)} 19:12, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

My recent edit

I described the reasons for the edit in the edit summary, so what are the reasons for opposing? Crzyclarks (talk) 17:04, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Both the mention of gender identity and the bolding of marriage equality was done after discussion - there should be a consensus here to undo that. Also, when it comes to gender-identity it means that when two people of the same gender-identity marry it is considered to be a same-sex marriage. --Scientiom (talk) 17:11, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about gender identity, but the bolding of marriage equality was hardly a consensus. According to laws and the actual institution of same-sex marriage, it is only between the same biological sex. I'd like a refutation on my argument that 'marriage equality' is not an alternative name for this article. Crzyclarks (talk) 17:19, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

It can be considered as such in that the legalization of same-sex marriage is considered to be marriage equality. --Scientiom (talk) 17:24, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

This is on the institution of same-sex marriage, not the legalization or proposal. As such, it is alternative name for those two things, but not this article. Crzyclarks (talk) 17:31, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

In reference to "gender identity" etc.: "biological sex" is not a well-defined concept. Does it refer to sex as determined by the chromosomes, the gonads, or the genitals? All of those can differ or not fall clearly on one side of the binary. The legal situation for marriage for transgender and intersex people differs massively from one jurisdiction to another. Significantly, for example, the United Kingdom allows a change of legal gender without requiring sex reassignment surgery, and that new gender is recognised for marriage purposes. - htonl (talk) 17:43, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I think the key point here is that it is sometimes considered to be a same-sex marriage when people of the same gender-identity marry. --Scientiom (talk) 17:47, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

You could go into detail on that, specifically separating the position of the law and what some people think. That should be done in the lead in order to keep the "gender identity" there. Bolding 'marriage equality' is still not correct, unless you change the title of the article. Crzyclarks (talk) 18:00, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

"...refer to such recognition as marriage equality." <- See bolded - it clearly mentions that it's reffering to the recognition of SSM, not SSM itself. --Scientiom (talk) 18:02, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how that shows anything. People referring to the recognition of same-sex marriage as recognising "marriage equality" does not support your position. This article isn't on the recognition of same-sex marriage (though we're just getting into semantics), it's on the institution of same-sex marriage. Crzyclarks (talk) 18:09, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

But what the leads says is factually correct as written - the recognition or legalization (the latter should also be mentioned perhaps) of SSM is known as marriage equality. --Scientiom (talk) 18:14, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it should be there, but not in bold, as it is not an alternative name for the article. Crzyclarks (talk) 18:20, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Are you fucking kidding? You edit-war, get blocked twice, and are facing yet another block over something as trivial as whether a word is in bold or not? And continue to wage a dead-horse argument over it? Get a grip and do something actually useful for the project. At this point, this is merely tendentious editing, and it has to stop. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:30, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

The blocks and current block discussion has nothing to do with this article. I don't see what is wrong with my argument, as it's clearly not an alternative name for this article and unless I'm wrong about the rules of 'bolding' names, then 'marriage equality' cannot be in bold. Crzyclarks (talk) 18:40, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

For cry's ache. Read WP:DEADHORSE already and give it a rest. Whether you're right or wrong doesn't matter. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:49, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Well it does, because it's still in bold. Crzyclarks (talk) 18:51, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

There are bigger fish to fry. Like this one:

Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly.

Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:56, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

The best refute that I've ever seen. Crzyclarks (talk) 19:05, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! She's a beaut, ain't she! Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 19:08, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Tradition of same gender marriage in Igboland (By Leo Igwe) IS NOT A TRUE INFORMATION.

To say that Igbo's allows a widow to marry a woman is a misleading information. The truth is that some families are been tricked to allow their daughter to marry a man they have not seen. In some cases; a widow might claims that her son is living in oversea and she want to marry for her son so that she can travel to where her son is residing (oversea) after her marriage which a man (not the widow) is arranged to represent the one in the oversea. It always happen that the girl will be delayed in her husband's house and different men from the family of the widow will be visiting to get the girl impregnated for the family of the widow. Most times this plans may not work if the family of the girl discover on time that there is no husband in oversea for their daughter. And above all, this marriage will never result that the widow will ever mention that she is the husband of the bride and can not have any marriage relationship apart from providing the bride's and her children's needs. This is done in a top secret, the whole world might accept same sex marriage but Igbo's can never accept it because our cultures, believes and sexual orientation can never welcome such practice.

By Oluchukwu F. C. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oluchukwufc (talk • contribs) 19:23, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

• Sorry to break the news but there have been many same-sex marriages, rituals, and relationships in your culture far before you or your closest ancestors even existed. It's a fact of history. The tradition of oppression or taboo of gays, lesbians, bisexual, transgenders in your culture is recent compared to the existence of equality among all. – Teammm ^{(talk · email)} 23:42, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Lede

Sorry, just changed the lede and noticed the tag above it about the talk page consensus while waiting for it to save. Just wanted to say that i've seen it called "Gay marriage" and "equal marriage" in equal measures. Thanks Jenova20 16:28, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually the lede reads better the way it was so i will revert myself. Feel free to ignore me, i'm rambling and want to go home!! Thanks Jenova20 16:30, 21 June 2012 (UTC)