Talk:Wikipediocracy

"Investigate"

There's been some back and forth over my edit changing "investigate" to "discuss." "Investigate" is simply not supported by the given source, which is the home page of the article. The word "investigate" does not even appear on the home page, except for the sentence "...first brought to light by a piece of investigative journalism in The Daily Dot." Even if it was, it would be self-serving per WP:SELFSOURCE and not usable. So if the home page is changed to accommodate us based on this discussion, I don't think we can oblige. This seems pretty clear to me, so I'm surprised to see established users quibbling over this. We need other sources to say that. If so, then by all means, it can go back in. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 12:35, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Actually unless you want to get into an argument as to what defines an 'investigation', most of your arguments are meaningless. A brief look at any of the blog posts shows the authors investigate various issues for an OED definition of the word investigate. 'Reliable secondary sources' are not needed to justify use of a common English word in prose when describing something that is obvious. What you are arguing is a content issue over phrasing/using of language, which ultimately comes down to a consensus discussion to remove it given the status quo. As an aside - even if the homepage DID change to explicitly include the word investigate, you would still be wrong because primary sources are perfectly valid when describing what that source's stated aims/goals/motive/purpose etc is. But thats not required anyway to justify use of a common English word. The SELFSOURCE stuff is just irrelevant. Arguing that a website that has broken quite a few scandals within wikipedia would be self-serving by describing themselves as 'investigating' is ridiculous. How do you think they did their homework? Voodoo? Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:51, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Support "discuss," more neutral NPOV term. NE Ent 12:52, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, "discuss" does not include a sense of "doing research into" - which is also clearly part of what that site does. "Investigate" has an air of "police detective" about it - which is also not super clear. What it seems to do is compile information about various issues, and discuss the results of the compiled information, and also ramble on any convenient tangent proffered. Collect (talk) 13:18, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Maybe to you it does, but not by default. Webster's 1913:

To follow up step by step by patient inquiry or observation; to trace or track mentally; to search into; to inquire and examine into with care and accuracy; to find out by careful inquisition; as, to investigate the causes of natural phenomena.

wikt:investigate has it more simply as

To inquire into or study in order to ascertain facts or information.

As Only in death comments, investigate is a common and obvious English word to use in this context.  — Scott • talk 14:33, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

"Discuss" or "explore" are much more NPOV than "investigate," in the absence of independent sourcing. Coretheapple (talk) 03:36, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

As already explained, sourcing is not required for use of a common English word to describe a process that is clearly an investigation. Also in what way is the word 'investigate' non-neutral? Given that investigations can be both positive or negative in their outcomes, and positive or negative in their execution. It is inherantly a neutral description of a process. Feel free to go find some reliable sources that describe the word as not neutral. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:45, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

It is not neutral, indeed it is extravagant puffery, because this is an article about a bulletin board, not a police precinct or detective agency. A claim like that, being somewhat unusual, requires multiple third party sourcing. Here there is none, as conceded. Coretheapple (talk) 11:43, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Well when you can come up with a source that says the word investigate is extravagant puffery and not a neutral common english word in everyday use, you might have a point. Since there isnt, you dont. Also please provide sources that show using the word investigate to describe a website devoted to uncovering misdeeds is 'somewhat unusual' again, common english word in everyday use everywhere to describe common investigatory practices. Unless you want to back up with some decent sources that state the word investigate is a non-neutral descriptor, you really have no argument other than 'I dont like it'.Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:36, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

The question is whether it is accurate. For that we need something called "verifiable and reliable sources." The "reliable source" that someone so generously supplied for that assertion is the home page of the website, and the only thing on the home page that can be remotely construed as a "source" is the self-glorying "mission statement," which does not indicate that it conducts investigations. See your position is essentially "it's obviously investigations - hey look at the website!" In other words, original research. Not just puffery, but sheer fancruft. Coretheapple (talk) 13:27, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Guys, it's a Friday night. How about you put on your fedoras and moleskin vests and go out and display your plumage for awhile? I'm sure the regulars and visitors at your local watering holes will immediately genuflect when you explain what a bigshot on WP you are. Cla68 (talk) 17:43, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm with you up till the watering hole part. Some of us don't drink. Caloric, addictive. Just bad all around. Not being investigators, we are just pawns, tools of the Unseen Hand in the great conspiracy. (Not night either at the moment.) Coretheapple (talk) 18:07, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, it's as if an occult hand was moving us like pieces in some cosmic game of Battleship. Herostratus (talk) 19:36, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Well what else could motivate total strangers to collaborate on someone else's encyclopedia? The intelligent ones among us are doing so for pay. The rest of us, unmotivated by anything but politics or vague interest in various subjects, willingly engage in honest labor to benefit a third party, The Big J. We do not draw a salary. The Big J does. Clearly an ominous, invisible force is driving us. One day I will write an essay on this, and if so, will the subject of this article publish it? I fear it is off-topic, or perhaps too on-topic. Coretheapple (talk) 21:41, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

• Just to recapitulate, the sentence in question is "Wikipediocracy contributors have investigated problems, conflicts, and controversies associated with Wikipedia, some being reported by mainstream media." FON wanted to change to "discuss," which I think is OK but "explore" is better, and I've changed to that. That seems to be a more accurate summary statement of the section that follows, especially considering the way this sentence is structured. But I agree that "investigate" doesn't cut it. I guess if there's going to be adamant feelings to retain that word, we'll have to go an RfC. Coretheapple (talk) 16:41, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I have undone your change. Explore has a completely different connotation to investigate. Don't claim any consensus for this change, because it doesn't exist.  — Scott • talk 09:45, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I have no strong opinion other than to agree that "investigate" is not the proper word. Gandydancer (talk) 12:55, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
    • Scott, I thought it was a compromise between "discuss" and "investigate." I can't see a clear consensus for either, so I guess we'll have to go to DR or RfC or LSMFT or whatever. Coretheapple (talk) 13:43, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Wording at top of 'activism' section

At the top of the "Website user activism" section it says as follows: "Wikipediocracy contributors have investigated problems, conflicts, and controversies associated with Wikipedia, some being reported by mainstream media." Should "investigate" be changed to "discuss," "explore" or some other word? I request that editors with a close association with the subject matter (founders, co-founders, moderators, administrators and others with official titles at Wikipediocracy) declare that in their responses. Coretheapple (talk) 15:26, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

• Discuss or explore. This passage is sourced to the home page of the website, which does not claim that the site's users investigate. Aside from being unsourced, it is non-neutral and a peacock term when applied to participants in bulletin board discussions. Proponents of "investigate" in the preceding discussion, when offering any argument at all, seem to be saying that the investigative nature of the website's users is obvious and that referring to them as "investigators" is clearly warranted. I think that's original research, and that claiming that bulletin board users "investigate" is self-serving, promotional, and needs to be sourced to multiple third-party sources. Coretheapple (talk) 15:26, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
• Discuss or "compile information" per NPOV. I refuse to make any statements about my off-wiki activity per the WMF privacy policy. NE Ent 16:22, 8 November 2015 (UTC) Don't care per Forridean. NE Ent 00:57, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
• How about analyzed? That way, we don't get into the issue of whether or not they got it right, since investigation tends to imply getting it right. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:04, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
• Discuss or explore - Using investigate makes it sound like it is our job. Using discuss or explore is the right alternative. Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 17:22, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
• Investigate, as explained above. Hey Coretheapple, how about you come clean about your ongoing grudge match with Wikipediocracy before asking people to disclose anything? Your frequent, tedious spats with Greg Kohs on Jimbo Wales' user talk page make it pretty obvious why you're trying to water down the language in this article.  — Scott • talk 19:36, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I raised this issue, and I have nothing but admiration for Wikipediocracy. Admiration for the site is not, however, a requirement for editing this article. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 15:35, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

• Discuss is the proper term for Wiki-voice, in my view. "Water down" is not a term I'd use to describe this action. This is simply proper encyclopedic terminology. Jusdafax 19:56, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
  • What "action" is it, precisely, that you think you have the "proper encyclopedic terminology" for? Juscurious.  — Scott • talk 21:15, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
• Investigate As Coretheapple is on another of his anti-wikipediocracy crusades, this time attempting to portray neutral words as non-neutral. Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:16, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

  Thanks, appreciate the well-poisoning. Seems to be contagious. Coretheapple (talk) 19:58, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

• Investigate: To investigate means to research or study into a topic or event of interest. Discuss gives the notion that Wikipediocracy is mainly a forum, analyze is fine but implies in-depth research with is slightly worse WP:OR than the term "investigate". Esquivalience ^t 01:17, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
• “Investigate” seems to hit the nail on the head—unless we can say “Wikipediocracy contributors scrutinize and discuss the dysfunctional aspects of Wikipedia’s processes, administration and user behaviour, some of which are reported by mainstream media.” Writegeist (talk) 02:18, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
• “Investigate” - it already is a factual, neutral word and works perfectly fine in this context. If I didn't know better, I'd think someone with an agenda was trying to water down WO's remit. But they're not, of course :D - Alison ^❤ 08:45, 12 November 2015 (UTC) Yes, I'm a co-founder of WO. We all know this.

  Surely just perception of it... I would be surprised if WO allows its article on Wikipedia to set its remit ;-) WJBscribe (talk) 10:36, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

  @Alison: So what makes it factual? Your opinion of the site, neutral as I'm sure it is? (By the way, appreciate your disclosure that you are co-founder of the site. I guess the "connected contributor" template isn't very practical on this talk page, considering how immense it would be.) Coretheapple (talk) 19:57, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

  Alison, I hold your website in high regard and there was no intent on my part to "water down WO's remit." I appreciate your strong feelings on the subject, since you are co-founder though i would disagree that "we all know this." In an RfC persons unacquainted with the subject may either participate or close the discussion. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:35, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

• Investigate. Let's call a spade a spade... WJBscribe (talk) 10:33, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

  Based on what exactly? I thought message boards discuss stuff. Really would like to know. Most of what I'm seeing in favor of "investigate" in this and the previous discussion is either monosyllabic "leave it alone," and various varieties of well-poisoning, personal attacks and innuendo, but not much in the way of policy-based argument as to why we are using a description that runs counter to the common-sense definition of a bulletin board discussion. What I do see from the article is that material produced in the discussions is utilized for investigations. Not quite the same thing as investigating. Coretheapple (talk) 19:57, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

  Forridean puts it well below. I simply do not accept that investigate has any peacock, non-neutral meaning. It describes what the website does satisfactorily in plain English. WJBscribe (talk) 16:45, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

• Investigate Let's stick with language that is accurate. Damotclese (talk) 17:07, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
• Investigate They investigate stuff. When I was a participant at the website I helped along a few investigations. "Coretheapple" is editing with an agenda (he hates the website). Of course that's tolerated. It shouldn't be. Topic ban him and be done with it.Dan Murphy (talk) 17:43, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
  • So, that's it? You've used the site and that's what you see? Apart from poisoning the well and original research, do you have anything else to offer? Coretheapple (talk) 17:01, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
    • Your well has been poisoned enough to kill a village by now given how much you insist on badgering people about it. How about accepting that other people don't agree with you and drop it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:17, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
      • Well I'd have a hell of a time "dropping" an issue that was raised by another editor, in the section above me, and concurred in by three others there and two others here. Funny how every time someone tries to deal with either rampant COI in this article, or poor sourcing or (as in this case) puffery, the same editors trot out the same attacks and disruption. Hasn't worked in the past, but go ahead. Meanwhile, the refusal to discuss, the COI, the edit warring and the "IJUSTLIKEIT" responses speak for themselves. Coretheapple (talk) 17:27, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
• Ranted about. I agree that we should stick with language that is accurate and let's not elide the facts here, it's not a service to the reader to do so. Herostratus (talk) 22:43, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
• Anything but "investigate" Considering that "To investigate means to research or study into a topic or event of interest." This would apply to me, and many others who contribute to WP. I investigated the BP oil spill for 2.5 years in order to help build the article. But this term gives an impression of importance that is undeserved. "Explore", "research", or similar terms are more appropriate, even if "investigate" is literally correct. [Ad hominem attacks on the OP and their supposed motivation have no place in this thread.] petrarchan47คุก 20:14, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, researching and studying topics or events of interest is exactly what goes on at WO so I don't see what your problem is with "investigate" here. And to comment, as Dan Murphy did, on the very obvious fact that the OP has an anti-WO agenda is hardly a personal attack. It wouldn't surprise me to see the OP agree with that, as he seems quite ballsy. Writegeist (talk) 21:37, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

My problem is that WO partisans, including COI editors, appear to have veto power over the content of this article to an extent remarkable even by the usual COI standards. Terms that would be considered puffery anywhere on Wikipedia (or WO for that matter) get a pass here for that reason. And by the way, at the moment things are pretty even, purely on a numerical basis, not adjusting for the "WP:DONTYOUDARECHANGEIT" contingent, which might explain the tactics deployed here. Are you guys going to fabricate WP:OHGOLLYHEHATESWO bull arguments about everyone who prefers some term other than "investigate"?Coretheapple (talk) 21:52, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Coretheapple, you seem to have misunderstood my first sentence above. It was not addressed to you. It was addressed to Petrarchan, as indicated by the indent. As for the substance of your post, with respect, I think maybe you don't see the disservice done to your cause by tactics here such as, most recently, the disparaging comment about a "dontyoudarchangeit contingent" and the equally ABF speculation about "fabricating bull arguments", which really aren't going to help you persuade people who dissent from your viewpoint that it's a sensible one. That's my final 2c :) Writegeist (talk) 00:19, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Except of course, his argument appears to be that using the word investigate is puffery. Which is laughable and doesn't really require a response. Only in death does duty end (talk) 00:59, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Writegeist, it is quite normal for other editors to weigh in even when not directly addressed; I'm not sure why this particular instance causes agitation. The truth is, hinting at a POV to undercut an RfC is not in keeping with the guidelines, and if arguments are valid, that tactic shouldn't be necessary. My problem with the term "investigate" is that although it is technically correct (and, full disclosure, I am a huge fan of Wikipediocracy, of transparency, and of independent journalism), I think the term would be misleading to our readers. It denotes a more serious status than is, to my knowledge, supported by secondary sources. I think the term "armchair investigative journalists" is fitting (and a compliment), but I'm sure a more eloquent presentation exists. petrarchan47คุก 01:04, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the trouble to instruct me in normal WP practice—I’m quite the newbie. You seem to have mistaken my attempt at clarity for an attempt at—or perhaps you meant a state of—“agitation”. And stating something is not at all the same as merely hinting at it. I doubt that relentless agenda-pushing in an RfC is in keeping with the guidelines, but of course as a noob I may be wrong about that. I agree that there exists a more eloquent presentation than “armchair investigative journalist” (which is perfect , nevertheless, for those admirable reporters who investigate the dangerous mechanical failures of cheap imported Pantouflard™ reclining chairs); namely the eloquent and apposite “investigate”. Writegeist (talk) 18:00, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Are there reliable sources that refer to the work done at WO as investigative journalism? If not what is there to discuss? This isn't about our opinions, as I have already shared with you that I highly honor the work they do. But we can't editorialize on WP, and without RS that's what we'd be doing. petrarchan47คุก

• Discuss per my previous comments. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:32, 25 November 2015 (UTC) If more detail required at this stage: in a nutshell, most neutral. "Investigate" cannot be stated in Wikipedia's voice without sourcing. As covered in greater detail by Petrarchan above. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 23:17, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
• Investigate Summoned by a bot. After reading the discussion, it seems that any word selected as a replacement is intended to be loaded, and the assumption is that the word "investigate" is equally loaded. I don't think so. It is difficult to assemble an objective argument for a change here (equally, for no change) because the core proposal seems to place undue scrutiny on the semantics of a single word, and I don't think that's a normal part of copy editing for informational purposes. One might find this kind of scrutiny of secondary implications of a single simple word when writing for marketing, for example, or speech writing. Not for an encyclopedia; in this context, one would use any commonly understood word that conveys the desired meaning. Investigate, study, discuss, examine, analyze, any of them would work, all of them exist in most people's vocabulary, one could use any of them interchangeably and randomly or as one is generally inclined. I cannot fathom an objective reason to focus on and explicitly exchange any of those very serviceable words into another serviceable word, one is left to conclude that there's a WP:TEND motive. In short and to reiterate, I find the original assertion that "investigate" is some kind of superlative or peacock term to be fatuous -- it's a word, and it works. -- Forridean ^(T/C) 15:57, 3 December 2015 (UTC) [user has no association with the site or the subject]
• Really folks! (only here for the RFC). It is nice to get things straight and precise, but this has all the earmarks of getting bogged down in nit-picking. It isn't even storm-in-teacup stuff. Drown the baby and throw out the RFC with the bathwater say I. If you are writing for your own introspective recursion, suit yourselves, but is this supposed to be encyclopaedic or just legalistic minuting of something or other? Exactly who do you think will imagine that you will not have investigated what you discussed? Or discussed what you investigated? Get a good night's sleep and forget about it. 105.228.156.83 (talk) 17:14, 3 December 2015 (UTC) Whoops, sorry! Forgot to sign; possibly I could swing a plea of having forgotten in the heat of the vital debate? JonRichfield (talk) 12:08, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Connected contributor template

• @Figureofnine: Ooh, are we playing this game again?  — Scott • talk 19:57, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

If you don't want the connected contributor template to appear, remove it and we'll go to dispute resolution I suppose. Sounds like a straightforward situation. The editor in question has edited the text and this RfC, as well as all three AfDs. Sounds right. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 21:14, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Take it easy, bucko. Don't make up things before people say them. It can be embarrassing when you get it wrong.  — Scott • talk 01:04, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

If you add me to the template, I insist that you not alphabetize me. It's demeaning.→StaniStani 15:28, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Scott, the linked discussion is irrelevant as I am aware of no other persons with a COI. Alison is co-founder, participates in RfC and AfD discussions, edits the page. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:17, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Looks like you didn't investigate the issue thoroughly enough.  — Scott • talk 18:15, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps, but your raising the issue was presumptuous. Only one COI has come to my attention. Site owners or founders clearly have a COI. Active participants, not. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 18:48, 29 November 2015 (UTC) (In my opinion.) Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 19:08, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

• I like the fact that, even semi-retired with less than two-dozen edits a month, I can hold such sway with some people. Makes me feel powerful and important and significant an' stuff ^_^ - Alison ^❤ 05:52, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

No, you're just an editor with a conflict of interest. Everyday situation. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 17:53, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Such big talk.  — Scott • talk 18:15, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

No, just the continuation of a pointless conversation. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 18:48, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

"Aber dem Pilze gleich ist der kleine Gedanke: er kriecht und duckt sich und will nirgendswo sein—bis der ganze Leib morsch und welk ist vor kleinen Pilzen." Writegeist (talk) 20:17, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

@Alison, Scott, Only in death, Stanistani, Writegeist, SB Johnny, and Dan Murphy:

At Only in death's suggestion, I have left a note at WP:COIN. I think you are starting to move into WP:Harassment territory. Please justify your posting Core's name as a COI editor there, using definitions from WP:COI, or leave Core off the list. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 16:29, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Please leave my comments alone. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:24, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Well that’s perfectly consistent with your recent contributions at Elizabeth Hirsh Fleisher ([1], [2], [3], [4]). Oh look, a hobgoblin. Writegeist (talk) 23:17, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Well I suggested it in jest as I was pretty sure that people would be intelligent enough to not take it seriously. I have replied at COIN, but the relavant part of COI would be "The word interest refers here to something in which a person has a stake or from which they stand to benefit.". Core's consistent negative editing and attempts to reduce the validity of wikipediocracy constitute an 'interest' that as an editor who has been subject to significant criticism there, any reduction in its reputation serves himself. This should have been obvious but use of the template also implicitly shines doubt on the articles depiction of wikipediocracy, so any negative-slanted (or positive) editing on the article by any wikipedia editor can be seen as having interest-based motive. Which is why use of the template was a bad idea in the first place. Basically you want to have your cake etc etc. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:49, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Look, as I pointed out at COIN, if you feel that starting an RfC is a horror, then by all means rush to wherever it is such things are adjudicated. You may want to be mindful of the fact that I didn't raise the issue in the first place. You also may want to soberly ponder whether there is genuine user misconduct on this page, and if so who are the perpetrators thereof. I don't know about you, but I see quite a bit, particularly disruption. Coretheapple (talk) 15:22, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Next lamest edit war?

(edit conflict)The purpose of {{connected contributor}} is supposed to alert the community of possible, not necessarily intentional bias in the article. It's been used here as some sort snarky ad hominem badge of shame / badge of honor and is serving no real purpose except as a candidate for the next entry in Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars. Presumably I could request full protection at WP:RFPP but then we'd have to create a talk page of a talk page to quibble over the wording ... I hacked together the box starting with "This article documents a site, Wikipediocracy, critical of Wikipedia...." as intended catch all so we can stop this nonsense. Could we possibly just go with that? NE Ent 10:58, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

It was added in this edit by an editor who naively believed that WP:COI, specifically WP:DISCLOSE should be enforced as it relates to the co-founder of the site. To the best of my knowledge, said co-founder - oh, I had better ping her @Alison: has not even once objected to being placed in that template. Other editors joined in. You call them "snarky." I call them "honest." I'm assuming good faith. They have conflicts of interest they have declared. Is that a surprise? Hell, look at the contents of this talk page and you see WP:OWN in action; the conflicts are so in-your-face that the connected contributor template is collateral. If indeed it was added for "snarky" or, that is, disruptive purposes, well, they oughtn't do that I guess. But I don't think that was the purpose. I think that what you have here is a lot of COI and, yes, a lot of people with connections to the subject matter who have their underwear in a twist. Coretheapple (talk) 15:16, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

And re NE Ent's template; I certainly have no problem with it, but not as a substitute for the connected contributor template. Jeshu H. Krist, if ever there was an article talk page that required that template, it is this one. I mean, seriously folks! I have never seen such sheer volume of COI and such well-neigh hysterical resistance to compliance with our weak COI guideline. And yes, I know that in the view of the editors who have declared a close connection with the subject article, this is a very special article about a very special website. Nevertheless, editors have declared their COI, and NE Ent's vague and uninformative (if well-intentioned) self-created little notice just doesn't substitute for the connected contributor one that applies to all articles, including the one that so many friends of the subject here are editing. Coretheapple (talk) 16:28, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

"hysterical" Oh, the irony.  — Scott • talk 17:10, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

"well-neigh hysterical"? -- Hillbillyholiday ^talk 23:02, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

How odd it is, that the self-declared conflicted editors find such "humor" in a subject that, by all visible indications, makes them purple with rage. Coretheapple (talk) 17:42, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Mmm-hmm.  — Scott • talk 00:09, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Scott: Since you have a self-declared COI, why do you edit the article? Why don't you comply with WP:COI? Coretheapple (talk) 00:23, 9 December 2015 (UTC)