User talk:AndyTheGrump

My archives:

User talk:AndyTheGrump/Archives/2012-2014

User talk:AndyTheGrump/Archive/2015-2021

I thought I had bot-archived stuff from earlier (I began editing in 2010), but it seems to have disappeared.

Your user page

It is so absolutely true. It is our biggest failing. I couldn't imagine how helpless or unfair it would feel in an article subject's position. Our website is too significant, too important, too heavily-utilised to not take this seriously.

Thanks for all your efforts trying to support article subjects from such things, whether it be misguided editors playing whack-a-mole with no situational awareness, malicious editors with an axe to grind, or somewhere in between. I hold out hope that slowly the tide will turn, and your userpage statement will become less and less true.

Daniel (talk) 12:55, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, such problems are built into the very root of how Wikipedia operates (and into the WMF's vacuous promotion of a supposed 'movement' as the saviour of humankind through 'knowledge'), and there really isn't any cure short of a complete rethink, so at best all that can really be done is to try to deal with the worst examples (not always easy, since drawing attention to such issues can sometimes make things worse for the victims) and try to encourage a little more empathy for outsiders where we can. Not just the aggravated 'unwanted BLP' victims that Vigilant refers too, either. The set-up actively encourages people to plunge head-first into writing autobiographical content, only to then get into arguments with insiders screaming about supposed 'conflicts of interest' when they do so. My advice personal advice to anyone wishing to have a Wikipedia article about them is to think again, and to anyone already having one is to use what media contacts they have to state that it is full of misinformation (even if it isn't - though given the appalling standards of many BLPs I've seen, that might be quite rare), and not to engage directly with contributors at all, if it can be avoided. With seriously-problematic biographical content, the best option may actually be to consult a lawyer. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:25, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Edward Colston

Now you've gone and ruined my quote from the article in my argument at talk: Edward Colston#NPOV failure: bold revert discussion (which I gave up as nobody else seems bothered). I shouldn't joke, it is not funny. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 09:27, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Irrelevant stuff David P. Bloom

"00:48, 17 January 2022‎ User: AndyTheGrump talk contribs‎ 7,016 bytes −294‎ Undid revision 1066140507 by ThomasBi (talk) Please stop adding this irrelevant fluff."

This wasn't irrelevant stuff, it qualifies under the description and guidelines for Biography and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. It was neutral in tone, it added neutral details and a new source to a section of the article. ThomasBi (talk) 01:01, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm not going to discuss article content here. That's what article talk pages are for. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:03, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Ah I thought this was acceptable, as you posted a question about a photo I posted on my talk page. Maybe commons talk is different, I will read up on that. Learning. ThomasBi (talk) 01:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Reversion of my edit on Christian communism

Hi, noticed you reverted my edit that added "ACMTC" group to the list due to it being unsourced. However, I sourced it on their article - which usually seems to be adequate on lists. For quick reference the article I used was this: https://www.vice.com/en/article/ywwnzm/cops-accuse-christian-commune-of-smuggling-and-raping-children

Now I know WP:RS/PS has no consensus on the reliability of Vice so maybe we can talk about that. But it is, or atleast was a communal group. I didn't add it for any political reason. In any case, interested in your thoughts and wish you a nice day. 24.44.73.34 (talk) 20:09, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

'Commune' doesn't mean 'Communist'. Find a reliable source that explicitly describes them as 'Christian Communist' and they can be included. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:43, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

By commune I meant "holding all things in common" which is a universal theme in Christian communism. Semantics aside though, I have looked abit into it and it doesn't seem that was emphasized too much in this group, if at all. Apologies for jumping the gun with my initial edit - I believe now I was too hasty with it. Thank you for your edit/insight. 24.44.73.34 (talk) 02:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

'Christian Communism' is a term that seems to have been applied in extremely diverse contexts, so I'm not sure it's wise to talk about 'universal themes'. Anyway, stick to what sources directly state (in contexts like this, preferably sources with more subject expertise than Vice), and let them decide what labels we attach, per Wikipedia's policies. I'm not sure, in the case of something like ACMTC, it matters a great deal anyway - the more important point is to convey to readers what those involved were actually engaged in. Present the verifiable facts, and let readers decide for themselves whether they want to lump them in with Thomas More, the Diggers, the Anabaptists, and the early teachings of Joseph Smith. I suspect most readers would likely consider it rather irrelevant, or at least, not much of an explanation for anything of consequence. Sadly, systemic child abuse can be found in all sorts of contexts, religious and otherwise, and 'communism' of any sort doesn't appear to be any sort of identifying characteristic. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:18, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

All good points, I will keep them in mind. Thanks again. 24.44.73.34 (talk) 20:11, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

ANI Notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.Govvy (talk) 00:34, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Colston

You might like to read Talk:Edward_Colston/Archive 3#NPOV failure: bold revert discussion. I was in a minority of one and didn't have the time to pursue it. I had only happened to read it at the time of the Bristol Four trial and thought - this is a load of codswallop but it would take more time to research the rebuttal than I had to give. I left a message at talk:Bristol that the article was being considered for GA [which it got] but no-one reacted. But when I say "slave-trader" being reverted as "not in citations"!! well you know the rest. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 00:40, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

I long ago came to the conclusion that GA status often had little to do with the merits of an article. As for the specifics of this particular article, we'll see, though I suspect that Govvy may regret posting at WP:ANI, which will no doubt attract more eyes to the article, and to Govvy's self-evident lack of understanding of several Wikipedia policies as demonstrated on the talk page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:47, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. See my challenge at User talk:Vacant0#Edward Colston, who did the GA appraisal. Govvy has a lot to learn, but could start with wp:cherrypicking. I expect the ANI report to be shut down pdq as a content dispute but if it escalates, wp:boomerang is the obvious outcome. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 00:55, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Accusations of incompetence

Regarding your accusations of me being incompetent at Furry Fandom about my lack of competence. When I said I was gonna rewrite it that was merely a suggestion.

Also I have rewritten articles before in the past. So it’s not completely a new thing for me. Plus I have written over 200 articles within 2021 alone. So I don’t lack competence.

The reason the quality of editing wasn’t ideal because lately I have been busy in the real world. CycoMa1 (talk) 21:59, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

I am not going to get into a debate about it here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:29, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Just don’t accuse people for being incompetent. Especially knowing the fact you only started interacting with me a couple of days ago.CycoMa1 (talk) 23:31, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

I am not 'accusing you'. I am stating clearly and unequivocally that in my opinion, based on what you have done to the Furry Fandom article, you lack the necessary skills to usefully contribute to the article in the manner you have been. This is based on my assessment of the article in question: the only valid thing to make such an assessment from. I don't have to 'interact with' someone to form an opinion about poor writing skills. Anyway, like I said, I'm not going to argue about it here, since it relates to a specific article, and to a discussion which should be taking place where others will see it. Please consider this discussion closed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:38, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

ANI notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. TudorTulok (talk) 08:38, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

David Bloom

Source isn’t Spotify.com, it’s The Ryen Russillo Show a part of The Ringer Podcast Network from the ringer.com an SBNation affiliate. Discussed were facts, not opinions regarding David Bloom’s reemergence as a con artist in Southern California and this information should be listed publicly. ChCat1983 (talk) 03:03, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Your refusal to comply with the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons policy has been reported. AndyTheGrump (talk)

February 2022

This is your only warning; if you make personal attacks on others again, as you did at User talk:CycoMa1, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. This is absolutely, manifestly unacceptable. Equivamp - talk 13:06, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't fucking care. Giving false information about cancers is fucking dangerous. Fuck off, fuckwit. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:09, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.Equivamp - talk 13:18, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

This is an awful situation, I don't believe that you dont fucking care. You clearly do, and I sympathise. I'm also in trouble for the same reasons. Please take it easy. Regards. -RoxAndy the Grumpy dog. wooF 16:45, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Unasked-for advice

Hi - I see your editing is under discussion again at ANI. I don't particularly want to comment there, but while I don't imagine that I have any monopoly on good ideas, I'd like to offer some thoughts in case they are helpful.

Admins are (in theory) restricted in how we use our tools. They should not be used because we believe one party is right and the other wrong about content (no matter how bleedingly obvious that is); rather, we should only use them to blindly enforce policy. Now, they can be, and are, used to enforce policies like WP:V or WP:COPYVIO, but they are also very frequently used to enforce behavioural policies like WP:CIV, WP:NPA and so on.

So, here is where the dilemma appears. If a user is acting against policy to put poorly sourced stuff in articles, and they have been advised in a civil manner to desist from doing so, but they persist - well, that's an obvious and easy decision for an admin: block and move on with your day. It gets more complicated, however, where there are policy breaches on both sides: if one party is adding poorly sourced content, and the other party is calling them a fuckwit, I see two separate policy breaches there, and I find it a damned sight harder to think about acting on one without acting on the other.

So, this is my impassioned plea: you are an experienced editor, you know what good sourcing looks like, and I sure as hell don't want to lose your expertise. Please will you knock the incivility on the head, once and for all? Be the better grump. I'm not saying that you need to be all sweetness and light to every spammer and charlatan you come across, but keep it civil regardless. As an admin and checkuser I frequently deal with unpleasant individuals: I assure you that nothing is gained by insulting them. Similarly, if you think that someone lacks the skills to work productively in a particular area, just say that - it will be much easier for them to hear if you say it plainly, without embellishments. Just a thought, anyway. Girth Summit _(blether) 00:16, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the thoughts. Two points in response though: (a) fremo ergo sum. [1], (b) the previous ANI thread regarding CycoMa1 achieved nothing of any real significance. And I'm not sure that this one will either, beyond creating a topic ban that even if CycoMa1 actually understands it, and complies, will merely move the problem elsewhere - and there are plenty of other article topics where gross incompetence and illiteracy can have real-world consequences.

This isn't just a 'CycoMa1' problem though. It is a structural one, where desperately poor content gets through AfC on the nod, and where quantity-over-quality obsessives routinely create systemic problems that can take years for competent contributors to clear up. To put it bluntly (fremo ergo sum again), the incompetents are capable of creating crap faster than the rest of us are capable of cleaning it up, and while it may not be polite to tell them to take their effluent elsewhere, it is sometimes necessary.

And frankly, going off-topic slightly, I'd show a little more concern for Wikipedia's insistence on civility between contributors if Wikipedia wasn't routinely obnoxious to outsiders who get featured in e.g. biographies they haven't asked for, and complain, only to be showered with waffle about 'conflicts of interest' (which doesn't actually mean what Wikipedia thinks it does), and generally treated like something the dog dragged in for complaining that we've got things wrong. There are double standards involved, and they really don't cast Wikipedia in a good light.

Maybe I'd do better to go back to sniping at Wikipedia from outside though. I'm not really sure why I returned, after taking a five-year break, since all it seems to have done was told me what I already knew - that good intentions and 'civility' aren't enough, in a world where Google sticks Wikipedia content at the top of its search lists, where the poor readers might think they are being provided with something resembling encyclopaedic content. Sometimes they are. Very often they aren't - and the failures aren't down to individual incompetence, they are built into the way the whole thing works. 'Anyone can edit' isn't compatible with 'encyclopaedia', and it never will be... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:50, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Those are some pretty serious concerns about the underlying structure of the project. I'm not saying you're wrong, but fundamental issues like that are way above my non-existent pay grade. All I'm saying is that resorting to insulting people just weakens the strength of any argument you make, particularly in this environment. Girth Summit _(blether) 17:56, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

• ^{( Buttinsky)} I think it's a perfectly understandable view that Wikipedia "is always with us", that in some respects it is problematic, and that it's therefore a worthwhile activity to try and manage that problem. I often feel like that editing fringe medical content. The question then, though, is how to do that management most effectively. Painting a target on yourself through overly-uncivil interactions is ultimately not very effective as it gives ammunition to your enemies (those creating the problem in the first case). Alexbrn (talk) 07:13, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I clearly could have handled things better. No question about that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:24, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Cleaning up CycoMa1's mess

CycoMa1 is responsible for about half of what is currently written in the Sex article. (see [2]). Given that they have been topic banned from writing about medical topics for CIR issues, and that the article receives over 30,000 views every day [3], I think their contributions to the article need to be reviewed. I was wondering if you had any thoughts as to the current state of the article, and whether it was worth just rollbacking all of CycoMa1's edits. Thanks. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:47, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Fuck. Yes, it looks like CycoMa1 has crapped all over it: his illiteracy is easy to spot (and edits of his that aren't illiterate are copy-pastes). As for trying to roll it back, given the number of edits by other editors involved, that could be difficult. I'm not going to touch it with a ten-foot bargepole though, given the circumstances. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:01, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Did you examine the issues raised before removing it?

This issue had earlier been raised in a Wikipedia discussion forum where it was instructed that the issued be taken to article for deletion for proper discussion but you did not look at the merit of the issues raised then you conluded that the article is properly sourced? And if the filing was not properly done you either correct it to the starndad or leave it for those who would be willing to pay attention to the issue. 1600-1700s (talk) 21:52, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

I looked at briefly at the ridiculously-long 'issues raised', and concluded that you either failed to read what it says at Wikipedia:Proposed deletion "Proposed deletion (PROD) is a way to suggest an article or file for uncontroversial deletion..."), or failed to understand it. The article has been in existence since 2015. It has been edited by around 170 different contributors. It cites over a hundred different sources. It appears to discuss a legitimate subject, as defined by Wikipedia policy. In such circumstances, deletion could not possibly be described as 'uncontroversial'. Accordingly, per Wikipedia:Proposed deletion, I removed the template. If you wish to argue for deletion, you will have to use the process laid out in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. And please note that you are not permitted to restore the template once it has been removed, as has been explained in Wikipedia:Proposed deletion. I suggest you revert your atempt to do so, before someone decides to take action on the matter. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:08, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Black vs black

Thanks for reminding me of the inadequacy of a single example. I don't know if the BBC has a style guide, but they have routinely used the lower case 'black' in recent coverage of newsworthy African-Americans and African-Britons.CharlesHBennett (talk) 13:28, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

The BBC News style guide seems not to capitalise 'black', but they don't actually give any guidance on the matter: see their entry for 'race'. [4]

Looking at the article further, I'm not sure we should be discussing capitalisation of the term in the lede anyway, per MOS:LEDE, since it isn't discussed further in the article body. And if it merits discussion in the article body, it probably needs more sources discussing the (changing) usage, rather than examples. I'll raise this on the article talk page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:39, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Nomination of List of aircraft accidents and incidents resulting in at least 50 fatalities for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article List of aircraft accidents and incidents resulting in at least 50 fatalities, to which you have significantly contributed, is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or if it should be deleted.

The discussion will take place at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of aircraft accidents and incidents resulting in at least 50 fatalities (2nd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

To customise your preferences for automated AfD notifications for articles to which you've significantly contributed (or to opt-out entirely), please visit the configuration page. Delivered by SDZeroBot (talk) 01:02, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Request

Regarding [5]: There's obviously no risk of the complaint against you being upheld, and it should perhaps be chalked off to a reaction to the editor being placed under a sanction they clearly did not expect. As an experienced editor in the BLP area, I am sure you will be able to think of the person behind the username and just disengage for now to avoid adding to their stress. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 06:07, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have responded. It was too ridiculous to think anyone would take it seriously... AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:13, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Bus of Theseus

"If over time you replace all the parts of a bus so that it becomes a tram but then over time replace all the parts of the tram with exactly the same parts as the original bus but new has it always been the same bus?" I gave up trying to get the punctuation right in that sentence. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 21:52, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

ToU

Where can I find the Wikimedia Terms of Use? Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 07:58, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

There's a link at the bottom of every article/talk page. [6] AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:04, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Odumeje....What's to be done with such articles?

I have attempted some small fixes, but I'm baffled. An entire section about a woman being cursed, and becoming mysteriously ill with a kidney ailment that paralyzed her and robbed her of speech. ??? Pleading ensued, but no forgiveness, and the same fate will fall upon her family. Strange reports of money being "sprayed". (My cats have sprayed things, and it's not pleasant.) All of this has "sources"!! Of a sort...Gaahhh! Arghh! Any thoughts you wish to share...sorry to bother you. Best wishes, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 08:28, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Frankly, I'd more or less given up trying to get people to actually look into this. Nobody seems interested over at the ANI thread trainwreck - too busy shooting messengers and congratulating each other for their skills in hunting down UPE-monsters. A simple request for people to take a look at the article on WP:BLPN has had no response, other than yours. DGG, who offered to mentor Celestina007, hasn't responded to my request on his talk page to look at the articles concerned. And I'm not going to try to 'fix' the article (and the connected ones - there are at least three linked in one way or another) myself. Not if I'm going to be accused of hounding, canvassing, and failing to engage in fixing articles before I was even aware of the problem. This Odumeje guy may well meet Wikipedia notability criteria, and we need to be aware of cultural differences when looking at how the Nigerian media - and more importantly perhaps, Nigerian people in general - view such individuals, and to take into account the broader cultural context that such (alleged) curses are found in. Celestina007's article isn't the way to do it, however.

I know next to nothing about the Nigerian media, but the sourcing is simply abysmal. It seems to consist almost entirely of sub-tabloid tittle-tattle we'd normally dismiss out of hand. Is this really all that is available? And, as you seem to already have seen, the sources very often don't support the content they are being cited for anyway. Celestina007 takes a denial that something occurred as evidence that it did. She essentially attributes the power to wish death on someone to Odumeje, and more generally gives credence, in Wikipedia's voice, to a plethora of claims to "spiritual powers". Celestina007 is of course fully entitled to believe in such things. They are no more irrational than other beliefs in the 'supernatural' found elsewhere, and even the atheists amongst us probably have more irrational beliefs about the ways of the world that we could possibly contemplate. I'm sure I have quite a few myself. Wikipedia, however, if it is to have any credibility, needs to at least attempt to apply a modicum of common standards, when writing about living individuals. Or, if the only sources available are ones consisting of gossip, denials, and vague insinuation, not write about them at all. There may be better sources, sufficient to justify an article, but it probably needs someone both familiar with the media and culture of Nigeria, and with Wikipedia policy and the way to write about difficult topics in a neutral non-sensationalist manner, to do it. Celestina007 seems to meet the first requirement. She definitely doesn't meet the remainder, and the Odumeje article shows the consequences. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:07, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Dealing with her manner of UPE hunting is one thing. An opposition to UPE is fine, but bullying editors and creating poorly sourced articles is not. I found this particular article through the connected articles. Yngvadottir has worked through one of them, so far, culling the crap.

There's a difference between personal belief and reporting neutrally. As a child, growing up in the "Bible Belt" of the US, we were taught that Biblical miracles were facts. I've had some unusual experiences with topics that WP considers pseudoscience. But, these were MY subjective experiences! Supporting such, with gossip rags is non-neutral and unscientific, and not the purpose of an encyclopedia. As you said, this is a problem with Celestina007's edits, in these BLPs. Perhaps this person is notable, that can be debated/decided, but the bizarre claims, in WP voice need to go.

I didn't wish to mention this on ANI, but I am reminded of Wikicology. Same bullying attitude, especially towards fellow Nigerians. (What the heck is up with That?) Same tabloid-type sources, which, to a US/UK editor appear to be gossip rags, seen by grocery check-out area. "Elvis lives! or I was abducted and bore a three-headed alien!" I'm having difficulty bridging this cultural divide.

So sorry that your well-founded comments have been ignored by BLPN and DGG. The articles are our face on the internet, thus very important. Anyway, thanks for your comments, and for allowing me to vent. I would write more, but because of physical problems, I am constrained to tippy-type on a tablet, which is very slow. Best wishes to you, my grumpy friend, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 21:36, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

And best wishes to you, my stripy friend. ;) AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:07, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

I keep trying to bring up her impact on this subject area, but you're right...they're far more interested in fussing about UPE than they are her actual impact on an entire region's coverage. Sad. Intothatdarkness 12:28, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

The subject area of Nigeria is highly important, and Nigerian-identifying editors, as best I know, haven't spoken, save one mild comment by one editor. Perhaps they are busy writing decent articles, vs checking on ANI... The act of bullying people, so one can be perceived as the only great expert for an entire, probably underrepresented country, troubles me, so very much. She stated: "I’m literally the most renowned editor dealing with Nigeria related articles in the history of the English Wikipedia so please respectfully do simmer down." [7]

Although I may be the best editor on my country road, (4 homes) & possibly in my entire subdivision (25 homes), I'm NOT making the same claim for my entire rural county, which is only 1 of 100 in the state of NC. Much less for an entire country. (Nigeria is over 7 times large than NC, and has a larger population.)

Obviously, there are important cultural differences between Nigeria and UK/US/Australia, etc., and the topics/sources should be vetted by more than this one person, who seems to be claiming that they are representing an entire country. Thanks for your comment, ITD! Best wishes from your vexed, snarling & possibly intemperate friend, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 08:38, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Deleting my edit

Why did you delete the edit of christofee Drew and Analicia Safire getting a divorce. It's all true 2A02:C7C:232:D300:1028:2359:140C:6030 (talk) 00:59, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Read the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons policy. Articles (particularly those concerning living people) need to cite published reliable sources. And even with sources, we need to consider peoples' privacy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:51, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Recent edits

Hello from lowlying Stoneleigh! Just wanted to emphasise that I completely support the collaborative aspect of Wikipedia and don't intended to edit war. Just felt strongly that the edit should have stayed and was disappointed that it was considered original research.

Happy Editing, Barney

Barney1995 (talk) 11:40, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

BLPs

I was interested on your opinion on something since you seem to care a lot about biographies of living people and seem to have some kind of expertise in editing them. There's a backlogged category, with 1700+ articles, entitled Category:Unreferenced BLPs. I never really understood how a category like this was allowed to exist, but maybe I'm missing something crucial. Clovermoss (talk) 21:06, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Actually, the category that technically has the 1700+ articles listed is Category:All unreferenced BLPs. Clovermoss (talk) 21:20, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

If it was down to me, I'd delete the lot (or at least, any that don't actually have any references, since there may be some that do, despite being in the category). To qualify as an article, it needs a claim to notability. Which needs sourcing, I'd argue, given that WP:BLP requires sourcing for anything contentious - which an unsourced claim to notability ought to be. Sadly though, the general consensus seems to be that as long as the claim to notability is vaguely credible, that is good enough to disqualify from speedy deletion. Meaning that anyone wishing to deal with such articles needs to deal with them through normal deletion processes (WP:PROD or WP AfD), after first trying to find sources to see if the subject actually is Wikipedia-notable. Under the circumstances, I'm not surprised there that many of them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:53, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I was aware about A7 and claims about notability. I was just confused about how there was this many articles that hadn't gone through AfD. I guess I thought more people would care? Is it the tediousness of it all? Or that there's so much that could be done while editing Wikipedia that it's hard to narrow down everything that needs to be taken care of? Taking a closer look at random articles within this category, a lot of these articles have an external link or something that would disqualify it from WP:BLPPROD, so I guess it makes sense that there's so many articles in the category. It still makes me uncomfortable, though. Category:BLP articles lacking sources is an even huger backlog, there's 97,000 articles! The page literally states that the category is for articles about biographies of living persons lacking sufficient reliable references. One of the subcategories goes back to January 2007. Clovermoss (talk) 23:23, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Although taking a look at that category too it also seems like not every article listed should nessecarily be there. Maybe I'm more concerned than nessecary. Clovermoss (talk) 00:27, 25 May 2022 (UTC) I also feel that it's important to mention that AfD isn't the only option. Ideally, all of this content should be cited. If the subject doesn't meet our standards for notability, there's AfD. What makes me uncomfortable is the sheer amount of uncited content that exists because it just doesn't feel right. I'm typically an eventualist but I feel like biographies of living people should have a different standard, y'know? Because what's written has an effect on real people's lives. Since it does bother me though, I should probably look into doing what I can to help with that backlog. Clovermoss (talk) 10:18, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

There is a useful tool which allows you to find all articles in a category, and sort them by pageviews. Using this on 'Category:All unreferenced BLPs' shows which ones are most likely to be of significance, and that most of the pages in the category are getting relatively few views. [8] From a quick sampling, the highest-view ones are probably generally ok, in that while they don't actually cite anything, they usually have external links which should at least confirm something. The low-view ones are more likely to lack any useful external links, and are more likely to be dubious and/or promotional, though since they are getting less views this generally shouldn't matter so much. There may of course be some in there that really need dealing with, since even if few people are looking at them, they may potentially be the only content on the subject a web search will find.

On reflection, my 'delete the lot' reaction was probably over the top, but it certainly isn't good to have so many biographies in the category, so if you want to have a go at reducing it, you'll be doing good work. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:46, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for showing me that tool! I think it could be very useful. It's also a way to determine how I should go about improving articles, as it's much less overwhelming than a massive list. There's an endless list of things to do on-wiki, since there's a lot of backlogs, but I do want to try to do something about this. Again, I appreciate your responses to me. Clovermoss (talk) 10:52, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Deadline

Hi, in regards your last comment on the Madonna economy article, I'll work to leave only sourced comments about the term. Not sure about the deadline to this matters, bc all information at least is well-referenced and aren't kind of isolated per se while I need to work with finding references; etc. Perhaps, like you have pointed out from this case, you would like to help in regards the Shakira Studies and Shakira Wannabe. Both articles were created by the same user inspired (WP:OTHERSTUFF) in the Madonna studies and Madonna wannabe (both well-documented terms in academic writings and popular literature; more than the Madonna-economy). The first Shakira's article is my main concern, and could be treated as WP:NOW as I pointed out in the talk page; and I also support Scyrme's view that even is not worth merging for a term that doesn't exist and originated by an user; I think dedicate a simple line about scholarly articles on her in the Bibliography of works on Shakira could be ok instead merging. The second one, I also support Richard3120's point of view. Thanks in advance, --Apoxyomenus (talk) 23:57, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Discussion regarding the Madonna article is best confined to the relevant talk page. As for articles on Shakira, I've not looked at them, and have no particular interested in being diverted away from the topic at hand. I looked at your article because someone asked about it on one of the reference desks [9], and noted that it seemed problematic. And while you are right about there being no deadline, the article is in article space, rather than being a draft, so it is expected to comply with policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:11, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Anyways, thanks. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 01:35, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

so,about you retiring…

so, I heard you are retiring. i cannot find anything in your talk page. are you just joking? If you aren't, then I think fandom (created by "the wikipedia guy") is a beter place. the reason i think you are joking about retiring is because some people in your talk page are talking about it for more than two years and you still appear active. you posted to me a lecture about Wikipedia not being censored in the talk page of humans a couple of days ago. just asking and suggesting.signed,103.114.211.46 (talk) 15:08, 4 June 2022 (UTC) edit:they are talking about you retiring for more than seven years.signed,103.114.211.46 (talk) 15:11, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Living up to our name

I wouldn't have said disruptive. You guys will reach a consensus, and I'll support it. Lighten up. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 15:45, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Thomas More Society

You recently undid a POV edit over at Thomas More Society. However, you only undid the most recent edit of the particular IP user, and if you look at the diff from before they started editing, you'll find they'd preceded that with some smaller POV edits.

I'm really trying to maintain a policy of not editing article space, but I hope that you can take a look at that dif and see the problems. Thanks. --Nat Gertler (talk) 05:00, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Done. Should have seen that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:32, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

OWEDTRWSMRTMC

Seeing as you are the only other active member: [10] - LuckyLouie (talk) 20:38, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Now there's a blast from the past. User:AndyTheGrump/Conspiracies is rather out of date, but I should probably add that one. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:55, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Copyright

My talk page isn't a platform for discussions that belong on article talk pages. Or for contributors sniping at each other.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I changed the texts for you, why did you remove them? CABF45 (talk) 13:16, 28 July 2022 (UTC) The 'changes' consisted of breaches of copyright. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:20, 28 July 2022 (UTC) I credited the sentences fully, I only added slightly changed content. What is your problem? CABF45 (talk) 13:23, 28 July 2022 (UTC) My problem is that I'm dealing with a halfwit who doesn't understand Wikipedia copyright policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:24, 28 July 2022 (UTC) I hope you're also familiar with Wikipedia:No personal attacks. CABF45 (talk) 13:26, 28 July 2022 (UTC) I am. If you don't like answers, don't ask questions that deserve the response they merit. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:28, 28 July 2022 (UTC) By your copyvio standards we could remove most of the article. Funny that only the text added by me annoyed you so much. CABF45 (talk) 13:32, 28 July 2022 (UTC) They aren't my standards, they are Wikipedia policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:40, 28 July 2022 (UTC) I cite WP:COPY: If you import media under a compatible license which requires attribution, you must, in a reasonable fashion, credit the author(s). You must also in most cases verify that the material is compatibly licensed or public domain. CABF45 (talk) 13:47, 28 July 2022 (UTC) What the holy flying fuck are you talking about? Nothing you copy-pasted was public domain, or CC BY-SA licensed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:53, 28 July 2022 (UTC) It's about four-five sentences. How would you cite them? CABF45 (talk) 13:56, 28 July 2022 (UTC) Comment Hey AndyTheGrump, Firstly, thank you for your edits at Ice cream. I think that CABF45 is not here to build an encyclopedia (given their blatant POV pushing with the use of unreliable sources that fit their opinion ...) along with some competence issues (given that they seem to think that 618-97 AD is before 550 BCE ...) and a battleground mentality (given their pattern of engaging in edit warring and agressivity ...). Best.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 13:55, 28 July 2022 (UTC) I'm inclined to agree with most of the above - though I don't think that we should necessarily hold one contributor solely responsible for the mess in the ice cream article history section. Sadly, content concerning the history of food tends to attract all sorts of POV-pushers (often motivated by nationalism), and to be based around questionable sources written more for entertainment than accuracy. It is of course more impossible to say who invented ice cream first, since it would depend on definitions, and on the highly-implausible circumstance that it was recorded in writing at the time, and that such records have been preserved until now. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:04, 28 July 2022 (UTC) Absolutely true.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 14:08, 28 July 2022 (UTC) I'm pushing my POV blatantly with ABC-CLIO and Royal Society of Chemistry sources. I will further tweak the content and readd it later. CABF45 (talk) 14:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC) Do that against the community consensus, and you'll be reported for disruptive editing and most likely blocked.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 14:06, 28 July 2022 (UTC) Speaking of consensus, this isn't the way to arrive at it. Article talk pages are there for a reason... AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:08, 28 July 2022 (UTC) You won't notice it yourself, so I'm just sharing it with you: User:Wikiviani is pushing the Iranian origins and wants to remove any mention of the Chinese and European origins of ice cream. Just try to remove the "copyrighted material" about Iran and watch what happens... CABF45 (talk) 14:16, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Not that I haven't predicted it.
Feel free to remove this comment. CABF45 (talk) 01:15, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Image replacement for the article Furry fandom

Thank you for your feedback on my proposed edit that was reverted. By making another file to avoid further issues, can I crop an image a bit?

The Harvett Vault (user; talk) 04:23, 12 August 2022 (UTC); edited: 04:29, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Personally, I'd think it better to have a photo of an actual person in a fursuit for the top image. This should really be discussed on the article talk page though - it's not my call. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:33, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

If anyone should ask while I'm trying to get some sleep...

...regarding this [11] look at the context. Or rather the complete lack of it. Some guy has an affair, has to quit his job (but maybe not really...). Is it notable? In his biography, just maybe. In an article about a WWE 'era' (proclaimed as such by google-mined marketing and fancruft sources), no. Not at all. Not without proper sources actually explaining what this has to do with any specific supposed 'era'. The guy isn't even mentioned earlier in the article. It is either a deliberate coatrack, or just plain vacuous fancruft, thrown in for no reason beyond 'it happened'. Which, since no explanation for its inclusion is given, is a WP:BLP violation. Having a source for something isn't even remotely a legitimate justification for throwing it into an article on another subject without explanation.

Competence is required. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:08, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Genuine question - why have you not reported this to WP:EWN? — @Czello 07:32, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

He didn't because 1. of his uncivil comments and pas: [12], [13], 2. I repeatedly requestd him to gain consensus, he claimed its BLP violation when its just a mere metion of Vince retiring which is significant, Vince retired after 40 years with the company and his daughter Step and son in law Hunter took over, but he falsley accused me of BLP violation and removed WP:RS info which all agreed this was a major turning point and the start of the enxt era, just based on his personal views. I told him to take it to AN, he backed down. Anyway I am not the editor who included that section anyway, the page is protected till September 2 and my prefered contents still stays, I merely wanted to protect the page, its ok, I accept how it is. But @AndyTheGrump never falsely accuse anyone of BLP violation again, good night. Dilbaggg (talk) 08:15, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

See admin's comments, no BLP violation: [14]. Dilbaggg (talk) 08:22, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

If it is added again without prior discussion on WP:BLPN (or an other appropriate venue where uninvolved contributors familiar with WP:BLP policy will see what the dispute is about) I will again remove it - as a violation of policy. Deepfriedokra's comment that they "Don't see as BLP violation" is an opinion, not a ruling (admins don't make rulings like that), and misrepresenting it as such while ignoring the remainder of the sentence "...but I protected theough serendipity the version w/o challenged material", makes it absolutely clear that the material is contentious. Which means, per WP:BLP, that the onus is on those who wish to include material to provide justification for it. Establish consensus first. Then restore.

And cut out the crap about telling me to take it to AN. I was the first to mention ANI, and repeatedly suggested you do that. Or took it to WP:BLPN instead. You didn't. You merely continued to edit-war WP:BLP-disputed material back in.

The article itself is, as should be obvious, a fork of the WWE article, which already discusses the company's products in considerable depth over the time period concerned - and does so without concocting 'eras' out of marketing phrases, and without misrepresenting staged performance as competitive sport. The 'era' article is fancruft built around a common phrase used in passing as a marketing term, and has no legitimate grounds for independent existence at all. Certainly not while including unexplained context-free negative material about an individual who's involvement with the industry long pre-dates the fictitious 'era' the article is built around. Wikipedia is under no obligation to host such crap, and in as much as it involves living persons, has strong policies limiting what can be included.

Competence is required. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:20, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Agree 100% with that final paragraph. Given this discussion it seems there's a growing agreement that the article is problematic. Perhaps you'd have more luck with an AfD than I did. — Czello 11:35, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Taking individual articles to AfD won't deal with the real issue here - which is a structural one, inherent in permitting articles to be concocted around phrases Google-mined to support contributors' own narratives. This is an issue that goes way beyond content on wrestling pseudo-sport, and can't be dealt with solely by picking off a few examples. And, to be frank, there are more important subjects that suffer from the same problems. I didn't delete the contested material because it was in a wrestling article - I deleted it because it concerned a living person, and inclusion wasn't justified by policy. If Wikipedia really wants to host fanfiction, I'm clearly not going to be able to prevent it from doing so, but meanwhile, when I see negative content on living individuals shoehorned without explanation into such articles, I will do my damnest to try to see WP:BLP policy is complied with. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:57, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

BLP violiation

How is this a BLP violation? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Steven_Fernandez&curid=71607784&diff=1107079048&oldid=1107076623 Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 12:36, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:SUSPECT. The person concerned has not been convicted of any 'criminal stuff'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:40, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thanks. I guess use of the word "alleged" can mitigate this? Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 12:43, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

At absolute minimum, yes. Though suggesting that someone is notable because they had allegations made about them some years ago, which appear to have come to nothing, would seem to me to be rather unconvincing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:46, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Reliable Source Noticeboard Discussion In Progress

Hello. This is a friendly head's up that a discussion was started on the reliable source noticebaord to determine if the Journal of Park and Recreation Administration is a reliable source. You may be interested in participating in the discussion, so I wanted to let you know about it and say you may participate here. Have a good day! Elijahandskip (talk) 03:45, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Your inference is not what I implied

Save the royalty at all costs of truth. Absolutely Certainly (talk) 11:45, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Your inference is delusional. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:47, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Grotesquetruth

That user's tendency to ask variations on the same question over and over, reminds me somewhat of another user, possibly Joseph A. Spadaro, who was banned from Wikipedia about a week before Grotesquetruth made his first appearance. This is not an accusation, just a puzzlement. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:27, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

It seems to be fairly common behaviour on 'reference desk' type websites. Some people seem to be compelled to ask questions, even when they aren't really interested in the answers. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:31, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

email

Hello, AndyTheGrump. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Forza bruta (talk) 13:37, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I shall delete the email unread. I'm not the slightest bit interested in getting involved in any dispute conducted through vague unsubstantiated allegations posted on the wrong noticeboard. Follow proper procedures, or go away. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:43, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Ariel Fernandez

[15] ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:57, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

re ponce

I picked a random insult. Coulda been nonce. Coulda been berk. Went with ponce. Discovering it has more of a meaning than I'd intended. Changing to something more appropriate. --Golbez (talk) 21:08, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

If you'd used 'nonce' I would have gone immediately to ArbCom, calling for you to be de-sysopped. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

sorely tempted. --Golbez (talk) 21:12, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

So am I. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:12, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

it's not my fault our dumb language has so many words ending in "nce" that are insults. they blur together. I apologize for bringing in more heat than necessary. As for the rest, you do what you need to. --Golbez (talk) 21:13, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

You may want to step away from 'Berk' as well... its etymology forgotton to all but us cockneys. I have a general rule of thumb that I dont use words I dont know the meaning of. Especially in relation to other people. Learned at a young age when I mimicked my Spanish au-pair's use of 'puta'. Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:58, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Nice. [16] AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:04, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I am choosing to believe that's in the precise and careful usage (which is actually a bit more well known these days due to its use in the title of that well known book: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch.) Only in death does duty end (talk) 22:32, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Planescape: Torment, actually. --Golbez (talk) 01:55, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Why has my edit been deleted?

I've just been accused of "promoting" my novel. Lol. Seriously? All I did was include relevant info on a relevant page. Check the page for Sambo and under Literature section you'll see the other texts have been "promoted" in the same way. That's how information is presented ffs. What is wrong with you? 49.187.56.48 (talk) 01:02, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

I'd not seen the edit in question, but you stated that sources on your novel don't exist. Which means that as far as Wikipedia is concerned, content on it isn't relevant to articles - per policy, which requires verifiability from such sources. We also have policies and guidelines concerning conflict of interest editing, which also seems to apply here. And if there is similar unsourced content, it should be deleted, not added to. Which 'Sambo' article are you referring to? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:11, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

A bowl of strawberries for you!

For your calm forbearance while under personal attack at Talk:Adam Levine, merely for sticking very reasonably to WP policy on BLP. Storchy (talk) 11:30, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:32, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Other OR list article

Hey, if you have a minute in the future, I thought you might want to have a look at List of countries by GDP (PPP) in the nineteenth century, the article ASTRO Clifford invoked to justify their own OR. It does look like another variation of the same thing. I tagged it and explained the possible issue on the talk page, but this isn't my topic of interest and maybe you'd have a stronger opinion on it (or might know a more knowledgeable editor to ping). Thanks (and no worries if this is outside your interest), R Prazeres (talk) 18:48, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Yup, I looked at briefly myself earlier, and agree entirely: 'another variation of the same thing'. As I noted in the ANI thread, this sort of problem is endemic to Wikipedia demographic data - not just lists, but more or less everywhere. People cite the least trustworthy of sources, often in ways that hides what exactly the source is (when they cite any at all), combine data from multiple different sources, and 'interpolate' or otherwise engage in WP:OR. And then, often as not, someone else comes along later to change the numbers without explanation. Personally, I'd never trust any such numbers for anything I considered remotely important. As for what can be done about it, my preferred solution is probably too inclined towards the incendiary to gain much traction on Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:02, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

October 2022

Hello, I'm Tyw7. I noticed that you made a comment on the page Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion that didn't seem very civil. Wikipedia is built on collaboration, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion&diff=prev&oldid=1116096998 Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 20:00, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

If I wanted lessons on civility, I'd have asked long ago... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:02, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

ANI

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. MicroSupporter (talk) 15:25, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Liberland edits

Damn! I moved too slow and missed the todo at ANI. Donald Albury 00:46, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Not much to it really. I've seen more excitement outside a Skegness chipshop on a dull Tuesday afternoon. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:52, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Are there general sanctions for the micronation topic yet? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:48, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Not as far as I'm aware. Possibly there should be, and if so, they clearly need scope broad enough to cover topics like Nationality as a Service too. Lots of promotional editing, by dubious 'new accounts'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:52, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Cleaned the history there and here... - UtherSRG (talk) 12:08, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Hope you are well

Since you were involved in past discussion related to it, I am notifying you to inform you that there is a discussion I opened at the administrator's noticeboard appealing my topic ban. Feel invited to review/re-familiarize yourself with the initial circumstances and review my appeal. Feel free to involve yourself in the discussion as you see fit.

Sorry that I didn't give sooner notice of this. It appears to have been an accidental oversight that you weren't among the previously-involved editors I gave notice to yesterday. SecretName101 (talk) 20:00, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

5 November 2022

[17]

Any more accusations of bad faith - and in edit comments what's more - and it's WP:ANI for you. You have been warned. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:09, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

See my post at WP:FTN. I'd be happy to have your abuse of Wikipedia to promote your pet exercise in historical revisionism discussed on ANI. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:14, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Personal attacks

Please stop attacking other editors, as you did on Flying car. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Nigel Ish (talk) 14:16, 5 November 2022 (UTC)