User talk:Jimbo Wales

Fundraising revisited

You may recall that about a year ago I brought up a discussion about WP's fundraising campaigns here after Andrew Orlowski wrote an article about them in the Register. Now the Washington Post's Caitlin Dewey (who has written about WP before [1]) has taken a similar approach, asking, "Wikipedia has a ton of money. So why is it begging you to donate yours?" [2] She states that although people who read the ads that are apparently up now (at least to non registered users) you "may well assume that the world’s seventh-largest site risks going dark if you don’t donate," but "In reality, that couldn’t be further from the case." Do you think it's misleading to run these ads when Wikipedia really is, in the words of Andrew Lih, "making more money than ever before and is at no risk of going away"? I think it's important to listen to what critics of our site are saying. Everymorning (talk) 03:34, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually I think this is presented as a news article rather than an opinion piece. She is not placing herself as a critic, but as a straight reporter. I do wonder why she reports on the bunch of cranks who don't want the WMF to raise money. I would suggest to those folks that if they don't want the WMF to raise money to support the various projects, that they form their own foundation and their own website and raise money according to their own standards. But please don't try to tell the world that the WMF fundraising campaign is unethical - it just isn't. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 17:03, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Did you just call Andrew Lih a "crank"??? The mind boggles. Carrite (talk) 13:37, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

I think you are misinterpreting what Smallbones said. He didn't say that everyone quoted in the article is a crank - he specified those "who don't want the WMF to raise money". Andrew Lih gave a presentation at Wikiconference USA 2015 in which he discussed the healthy state of the fundraiser under the topic "Good news". I haven't asked him directly, but I've known him for years and I very much don't think he holds the position that the WMF shouldn't raise money.

Having said all that, to answer Everymorning's question, I disagree strongly with the spin in that Washington Post article. I think it's quite unfair. The fundraising team informs the board reliably that fundraising is getting harder, in no small part because of the ongoing shift to mobile. (People are dramatically less likely to donate when they see a banner on a mobile device, largely because it's just a pain in the neck to do from a phone.) Desktop pageviews are being cannibalized by mobile, and this impacts us.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:15, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

I think it is a good sign of the tunnel-vision endemic at the WMF that reasons for fundraising getting harder is being blamed on mobile access rather than the core doners (People who donate year-on-year) being well aware the WMF has a *lot* of money in the pot, which it doesnt appear to be spending on value-for-money upgrades to Wikipedia or the wiki-software in general. Its true people are less likely to donate via mobile devices, but there are very simple solutions to donating via mobile phones and have been for over 10 years. That the WMF does not take advantage of these is really its own fault. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:29, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Well I seen a lot of criticism of WMF "honey pot", but relax its not going there, but it will ensure services continue barring unforeseen problems, and is not excessive by the standards of non-profit organizations, as a ratio of annual outgoings. And there is criticism of the wiki-software, but generally I feel it to be of a high standard, and is the basis of the majority of wikis on the web. Sure spending could be cut if and things would carry on, but I find allegations of misappropriation tenuous. And if people want to donate why not expand? But if a lot of the newspapers carry a lot of these sort of stories, then income will fall and cuts will have to be made. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 23:44, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Well with the current bank balance, even if funding stopped outright cuts would not have to be made for a long time. The criticism of the honey pot is not the existance of the honey pot, no one actually minds the WMF raising funds, its the slightly dishonest (or rather more kindly put, overstating) implication that the wiki will crumble that they use as justification that is a big problem. The other is of course, the spending of the money. If you say 'Give us your cash so we can improve the Wiki experience!' you actually need to spend it and improve the experience... Very little of that has been showing in the last few years with the various technical project failures, understandably people want to know what is being done with the money they do have. Which brings us back to: if the WMF cut 80% of their staff, it would have little impact on the Wiki-experience at all. It would stay the same. The pot would last a fair bit longer then. Its difficult to explain and justify the difference to people between 'spending your donations for no real improvement' and 'spending no money and no real improvement'. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:34, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

On a perhaps slightly irrelevant note, I'm pleased to see they're asking for £2 here in the UK, rather than £3: it always seemed a bit unfair that they asked for $3 in the US and £3 (more than half as much again) in the UK, especially when comparing both to the price of a cup of coffee. --Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 15:41, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia blocking in a particular country

... with Russia in mind :-) It is well known and much quoted your opinion on the matter, see for instance Russian Wikinews "ru:Джимми Уэйлс: Подчиняться давлению слабых и трусливых политиков — это не путь Википедии" (= "Catering to the demands of weak and cowardly politicians — is not the Wikipedia way"). It is said back in 2013 and I quote again:

For me, being blocked is always preferable to collaborating with censors. It’s important to understand that the fear of site-wide blocking is based in concerns that some (smaller, presumably) ISPs may lack sufficient technical resources to block individual pages, forcing them to block the entire site to comply with the law. Believe me, if those ISPs block the entire site, while other ISPs only block specific pages, the ones which block all of Wikipedia will lose customers very very quickly. We are not weak, we are very powerful. Catering to the demands of weak and cowardly politicians — the kind who fear the spread of knowledge — is not the Wikipedia way.

Nevertheless I see two significant changes ever since:

1. Back in 2014, one year later, you said ("Russian alternative to Wikipedia"): "<...> unless the Russian government decides to block access to Wikipedia, a prospect that I previously considered highly unlikely, but one which the events of the past two years have suggested is entirely possible <...>"
2. Since 2015 the Wikimedia projects' access model is fully changed from "take what you can" to "take it all or nothing". Because with HTTPS-only access with native certificate check and the majority of project on the same IP-pool there are not options anymore to ISPs to block specific pages, it doesn't matter, are they small or not, technically equipped or not.

The last change especially makes the rationale of your comment of 2013 rather obsolete, as properly pointed (not by me) at the talk page of the list of pages, included to the Common register of prohibited websites.

So I was wondering if you have a comment, correction or a more strong word formulation to your position of 2013 reflecting the changes listed above?

Respectfully, --Neolexx (talk) 11:20, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Great, thanks for asking. The first sentence still stands, as ever: "For me, being blocked is always preferable to collaborating with censors. " And the last two sentences still stand, "We are not weak, we are very powerful. Catering to the demands of weak and cowardly politicians — the kind who fear the spread of knowledge — is not the Wikipedia way." As this situation slowly unfolds, I am so far very proud of the Russian Wikipedia community and their agreement with this. (They banned a rogue admin who is pro-censorship and visited the regulator and apparently "agreed" to censorship demands.)

One of the techniques that the Russian Wikipedians have used to deal with the situation is one that I approve of heartily. For pages that the government complains about, they focus a lot of attention on the articles to improve them, to make them more scholarly, and more in line with what an ideal Wikipedia entry should be. This has resulted in the removal of demands which could have potentially led to blocking. However, press rhetoric is ramping up, and the future is difficult to predict. But Wikipedia is popular in Russia, Wikipedia is useful in Russia, and although the government there isn't the most responsive to popular demands, they really have no good reason to do something really unpopular over something so trivial in the grand scheme of things.

We can usefully compare the situation in Russia to the situation in China. In China, the sensitive topics are mainly those which might appear to some to directly threaten the authority of the Chinese government. In Russia, the sensitive topics to date have mainly been about drug use and homosexuality. One of the ones currently under dispute is Cocaine/ru:Cocaine. The Russian government's clear intention in passing a law regulating speech about illegal recreational drugs was to target those who are advocating the use of them - pro-drug 'propaganda'. It is not likely that they had any real intention of banning a serious encyclopedia article on the topic. This page, as one example, is on the Russian government's own website.

In the long run I am hopeful that we can resolve this issue, possibly by working to see a clarification in the law so that it clearly only targets "advocacy".

I should hasten to add: I do not support legal bans on the advocacy of drug use. My point is merely that I think that what is happening to us in Russia is an unfortunate side-effect.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:05, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you for your answer. As the topic and your opinion on it should be interesing to many other ru-wiki participants, I have it translated together with my original question at our Common (Общий) forum, en-wiki Village pump equivalent: Мнение Джимми Уэйлса. --Neolexx (talk) 23:31, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
• It is nesessary to mention that editor, who was bloked, only declared intention to seek compromise on the content of the articles within the rules of Wikipedia, not to remove some information at the regulator's wish. Part of the community met with discontent this blocking, and now he is unblocked. Cathry (talk) 23:21, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Simply "unblocked" would not be fully descriptive. "Russian Wikipedia suspends editor who cut deal with authorities" is one of recent media coverage samples. It may worth noting that:
    - Samal was a Russian Wikipedia admin for 4.5 years: elected in 2010, his admin flag taken away for administrative inactivity in 2014. So in 2015 he was not an admin, the meeting moment inclusive.
    - Samal now strongly refutes that he ever presented himself to the authorities as an admin or as a representative of some Wikipedia community. The matter is now in Russian Wikipedia ArCom case АК:967. --Neolexx (talk) 23:32, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

• Hello, Jimbo. As it was mentioned above Samal was not RuWP's admin when he took part in meeting with Roskomnadzor's representatives, and now he is unblocked by the intermediate decision of RuWP's Arbitration Commitee. I suppose that your opinion about articles about narcotics on RuWP is mainly based on mass media's interpretation rather than on primary sources. Fact is that articles about narcotics on RuWP had been written by drug addicts and drug dealers while their edits did not attracted attention of other RuWP's editors. Just for instance, article Cannabis smoking explained in detail to the readers how to "obstruct heel", how to make "steam locomotive" and article about Charas warned readers that in India instead of charas gullible buyers can get compressed dust. RuWP's administrator Grebenkov said about it: "We have ability to delete half of [Russian] Wikipedia as the information is not confirmed by sources". While Russian Wikimedia's representatives (Ctac and Dmitry Rozhkov) give interviews in which they try to represent RuWP in a favourable light and to make Roskomnadzor out a fool, others RuWP's editors eliminate errors, nonsense, freaky fantasies and links to drug addicts' trip-reports. Majority of Roskomnadzor's claims are just even in terms of the RuWP's rules. But some part of RuWP's editors (basicly living outside of Russia) instead of eliminating errors in articles decided to use the situation to get RuWP banned in Russia. Unfortunately these editors are not banned in RuWP because there are several administrators among them. Hhhggg (talk) 06:37, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Riiiight.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:28, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

:-) / Basically there are currently two points of concern and discussion at ru-wiki. The first one is about the particular meeting: did anyone present himself as an admin or/and Russian Wikipedia community representative. The meeting appeared to be audio-recorded and the accused side is ready and willing to prove that the facts are fabricated and leaked to media for some purposes. It might have sense so do not let us into a worsened "Wikipedia Ouroboros" state: when the very participation/blocking of long-standing participants will depend on external media coverage and not on his/her actual proved activity.
The second one seems to be about the monopoly - is any exists or assumed - of Викимедиа РУ (Russian Federation local chapter) for any kind of communications with Russian authorities - or at the very least a necessary participant of any such communication. So the case АК:967 might be long and wordy before a resolution. --Neolexx (talk) 14:23, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Does Wikipedia or the WMF receive donations from corporations that pay for industry-funded research?

I'm sure they do since so many corporations fund research these days. I was curious if there has ever been a breakdown in studying exactly how many dollars are donated by such companies and, perhaps, who donates the most? I know that when I have donated to Wikipedia I put my name on there and I'm sure you all keep that sort of thing on file, so I was just curious if someone has ever sorted through those donations to compile lists of groups like that? LesVegas (talk) 15:18, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea. But part of the reason I have no idea is that such a route would be totally unproductive in terms of affecting the content of Wikipedia. The Wikimedia Foundation has virtually no influence on what is written in Wikipedia.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:23, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, a big donation would draw the attention of He Who Shall Not Be Named, and that would ultimately prove to be a very unproductive investment indeed, what with excrement and air circulation devices. Carrite (talk) 02:44, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Urgent abuse report

Sorry I tried to find a better place where to report this but didn't. Pls fwd to so taking care: The page "lol.lynx.net.ru" hosts a full copy of commons.wikimedia.org without proper attribution or licensing, even scamming the links looking like our original site: [http:/lol.lynx.net.ru/index.php?q=uggcf%3A%2F%2Fpbzzbaf.jvxvzrqvn.bet%2Fjvxv%2FPbzzbaf%3AQryrgvba_erdhrfgf%2F2015%2F11%2F15] + [3] for example... they are even faking the login page: http:/lol.lynx.net.ru/index.php?q=uggcf%3A%2F%2Fpbzzbaf.jvxvzrqvn.bet%2Fj%2Fvaqrk.cuc%3Fgvgyr%3DFcrpvny%3AHfreYbtva%26nzc%3Bergheagb%3DZnva%2BCntr ! --.js (((☎))) 03:43, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Just a WP:MIRROR, isn't it? Rcsprinter₁₂₃ (gab) 10:52, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

More like a Live mirror.[4] Strictly speaking, these are more or less forbidden. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 11:46, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Did you ever see The Boys from Brazil? The famous line, "There are Nazis in Paraguay." There are internet trolls in Russia. Big deal. So what. Ignore them. I broke your links on purpose. Don't restore them. Don't visit them or you could get infected with malware. Jehochman ^Talk 12:21, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

NDTV

http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/wikipedia-has-a-ton-of-money-so-why-is-it-begging-you-to-donate-yours-1251952

NDTV published this article about Wikipedia, but all the people in the comments section came out in support of Wikipedia. --The Avengers 14:54, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

It's a pretty silly article, clickbait headline and all, so that makes sense to me.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:39, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Are persons with advanced permissions exempt from WP:DISCLOSE?

Some weeks ago, in a discussion at Talk:Wikipediocracy, User:Alison disclosed she was site cofounder. After she declined to do so, I placed her name in a connected contributor template at the top of the page per the guideline. Alison and others immediately treated that as a joke, adding nonconflicted editors. Alison herself has edit warred to remove the template after she and others crammed it with the names of nonconflicted editors. I view this situation as an editor with advanced permissions and many friends avoiding basic COI rules. My question is, do we give editors of long and distinguished service, and advanced permissions, a de facto exemption from WP:DISCLOSE? Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 14:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Coretheapple (talk) 19:24, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

No. -- Euryalus (talk) 22:47, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

A related question:

Do we disregard only the “foes” part of the COI guideline "You should not create or edit articles about yourself, your family, friends or foes”? If the guideline applies to Alison, then it must apply equally to Coretheapple, who makes no bones about regarding WO as a foe, yet fights tooth and nail against being held accountable to the guideline, and refuses to share a Connected Contributor template, which he wishes to keep in situ at the WO article talk page, with Alison.

Note: There is a Connected Contributor template /COI discussion at Talk:Wikipediocracy, including a common-sense solution in the form of a notice suggested by N Ent, which Coretheapple rejected as a substitute for the Connected Contributor template; and Smallbones opened another discussion on the same topic at COIN. Writegeist (talk) 22:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Honest to gosh, Mr. W, I have been as clear as crystal about my total indifference about the very sparse and rather old static about my username on an external site. I have said that much worse comes at me here, where it doesn't matter either because this is my hobby. I am not here to protect an article about a site I founded. I am not here to rake in bucks, as some other editors are. yadda yadda. I don't much care for editors claiming to have COI to disrupt the discussion on that page (as you and other editors have done), but I view that as a user conduct issue, it does not make me a "foe" of the article you are protecting.

And I might add, the efforts of you and other article WP:OWNers to stick my name on that template was removed by an administrator as a violation of WP:CIVIL, and it was further explained to the bunch of you on COIN that I do not have a COI. After that, you switched tactics, came up with a special, custom-made template for that article and that article alone, which would defeat the purpose of WP:DISCLOSE by not in fact, disclosing the identity of the editors who really are conflicted. And it goes on and on and on. You guys just simply do not want WP:COI applied where your pals and your favorite site are concerned. Coretheapple (talk) 23:42, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

It would be great if anyone with a COI on Wikipediocracy simply ceased editing the article on it, per standard practice about people or organisations that editors have a direct association with. That includes people with roles in the site's administration, and people who feel so strongly about it that they can't edit it neutrally. No especial need to flag them all in templates, let's just have regard for apparently non-neutral editing in the article like we would on any other page. -- Euryalus (talk) 22:47, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

We have gotten to this point because Alison, the site founder, and her friends are adamant about their desire to control the article on the talk page and edit it. The template would not be an issue except for that. I'm really maxed out on the arrogance and hypocrisy I've encountered on that page. At the COIN discussion, a supporter posited that COI only matters for harmful edits. If so, what is the point of the guideline? These people have sought to manufacture a COI for Core by attacking him on the site, and I'm sure I'm next. I think Jimbo needs to state whether it is kosher for a checkuser to disregard the COI guideline. If so, I certainly won't pursue this further but it's not a great precedent. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 23:13, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

COI applies to anyone with a COI, regardless of whether it is positive or negative. But the CU status is a red herring. No one is suggesting there has been a misuse of the CU tool. -- Euryalus (talk) 23:45, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I assume he's referring to WP:ADMINCOND, which requires (with a straight face) that administrators "are expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others. Administrators are expected to follow Wikipedia policies and to perform their duties to the best of their abilities." Etc. But note - aha! - that WP:COI is a guideline, not a policy. So it doesn't matter and the flabby and non-compulsory language of the guideline has been pointed out to me at the COI/N discussion. So I guess the question is whether admins need to lead by example on COI. In my experience, unrelated to this article, the answer is an emphatic no. In fact, I have found that admins with COI feel that they are privileged characters, and that they can slip-side past COI rules. After all, they know the rules, and they know how weak they are. Some example! Again, I am thinking of a much, much worse situation than this one. But the principle is the same, as is the admin not giving a shit about COI and getting oodles of support in that position. Coretheapple (talk) 23:59, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• I am not "the site founder" - please stop repeating this bare-faced lie across multiple pages. Now, it's here on on Jimbo's talk page. Also, I was not informed that I was being discussed here - not cool - Alison ^❤ 00:40, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

"not a big deal"

Hi Jimbo. As you certainly know, you made a statement in 2003 which said that becoming an admin was "not a big deal." This statement has since been widely quoted by those who believe in less strict standards at RfA. However, others contend that the statement is outdated and is no longer relevant today, because now Wikipedia is much more popular than it was at the time. In light of this, I wanted to know if you still stand by that statement, and if you have the time to explain, why you still do. Thank you. Biblioworm 22:05, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Imagine a model for building an encyclopedia where all the editors are carefully vetted up front before being allowed to write. We called it Nupedia. It failed. What we learned from that is that for things which are reversible, it's better to be open. It's better to give people a shot, because they'll generally do good work and they'll learn as they go. Another thing that we learned is that the vetting process didn't really work at finding good writers and excluding bad ones.

Now look at how we manage the admin process. Everyone is so carefully vetted up front before being allowed the admin tools. And guess what? For things that are reversible, it's better to be open. It's better to give people a shot, because they'll generally do good work and they'll learn as they go. And the vetting process we use very likely selects for some wrong things, i.e. it doesn't necessarily really work at finding good admins and excluding bad ones.

I think admin rights should be much more easy come and easy go.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:15, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Could not agree more. I'm still strongly of the opinion that if it were more "easy go", it would become more "easy come" but at the moment, as long as you are active, you are unlikely to lose the right. Worm^TT(talk) 11:39, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

... and "active" means making an edit (not even an admin action) once a year. There are a lot of current admins who are barely functioning as editors, never mind as admins. pablo 11:43, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

While inactive admins inflate the numbers of admins, perhaps concealing the extent of the issue for those who haven't looked at it closely, they don't actually cause any harm. And removing the admin bit from them is not a very nice thing to do and certainly not a path towards "easy come". Better to invite them back and get them excited again. :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:42, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Jimmy, at the moment the only way for an admin bit to be removed from an active admin would be through arbcom, which is unpleasant for all involved. Do you have any opinions on how we might move to a more "easy go" system, whilst balancing the "not very nice thing to do" side of the equation? Worm^TT(talk) 14:51, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Becoming a sysop is unpleasant(RfA), why should losing the bit be pleasant? I have seen a lot of desysops recently. Who are these users that should not be an admin but the system has failed to desysop? Frankly in is far easier to lose ones admin bit than it is to get one. It took me a lot of time and effort and a lack of unwise action to become an admin. I could lose my bit today if I really wanted to. It is far easier to "go" than it is to "come".

I do remember a time when a sysop losing their bit was unheard of, but these days it is common place. The meme of "admin for life" is far from true now. Also from 8 years experience I can say that being an admin is not a big deal, you don't get extra authority or even respect(in fact you are automatically disrespected for many just because you a perceived to have authority). Anything you do that is disagreed with can be reversed just like anyone else. It is mostly routine maintenance. HighInBC 15:33, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I argued in a Signpost opinion piece a couple of years ago that the only workable solution is to create an elected committee with the responsibility of managing admins, with the power to give and take the bit. I still think that's the only workable solution. Looie496 (talk) 15:34, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Arbcom is an elected committee with the responsibility of taking away the bits. As for giving the bits, do you really think that should be taken away from the community? HighInBC 15:36, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, the community would still be in control indirectly, but yes, that's the whole point. The bottom line problem is that the RfA mechanism is too unwieldy, and no small change is going to fix that. Looie496 (talk) 17:31, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with HighInBC, it takes years to develop the trust so that an editor can pass an RfA. But if an admin overturns an AE block or Checkuser block or spends an afternoon vandalizing articles (implying that the account might be compromised), I'm pretty sure that the bit would be removed by the end of the day. An admin who has a meltdown, for whatever reason, can expect to be desysopped. Of course, after discussion, they might get the bit back but it is by no means assured. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:47, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

So, my understanding of your reply is that adminship should be easy to get (or "not a big deal") on the condition that it's easy to lose. Biblioworm 16:25, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

That was discussed at great length a short while ago and there was no consensus to change the way people are de-admined, as resistance from admins to keep the status quo was strong. Coretheapple (talk) 20:06, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

As I've opined before, at this point adminship is a medium-sized deal. Obtaining it, or losing it, should be neither too easy nor too hard. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Jimmy on this. Admin-for-life appointments are not the best way to go. Sole Flounder (talk) 20:00, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I'm more surprised that there are admins who stick around for 8 or 10 years. It's a pretty thankless job and now that I am one, I would expect admins to burn out more quickly than they do. It's easy to leave and become inactive, it takes determination to keep doing the job, year after year. And I'd say the same for editors, too. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:50, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Unhelpful memes associated with adminship and RfA

There are a number of unhelpful memes associated with adminship, that taken together seriously risk the project.

"Make it easier for desysopping, and RfA will sort itself out"

I would liken this belief to believing in magic. That a terribly broken process will some how be transformed by a new method of desysopping beggars belief, as it simple does not address the long stand problems with RfA, that have been going on for years yet seem insolvable by the community, despite many many attempts at reform. RfA is incredibly broken, and attempts to fix this have to address RfA directly.

"Only content creators should be made admins"

Having this belief makes adminship into a badge of honor as opposed to determining how trustworthy a particular applicant is. And to suggest that editors can not establish trustworthiness from considerable contributions to copy-editing, vandal-fighting, template editing and other types of wikignoming is deeply flawed.

"Adminship is for life"

Again, patently false, there is plenty of desysoppings for inactivity, as well as numerous desysoppings for misconduct.

"Admins returning from breaks are irresponsible"

There is no scientific basis for this claim. People bandy anecdotal "evidence", but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that suggests active admins can make poor decisions, look at the present WP:AN and WP:A/R/C for examples of this.

"Standards at RfA are falling"

You only need to examine some RfAs from yesteryear with some recent RfAs to see how false this is. Standards at RfA have risen considerably compared to how they were in the past.

--Jules (Mrjulesd) 18:08, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom election results live

Hi Jimbo (and watchers),

Just a note to say the ArbCom election have now concluded, and results have been posted. 9 Arbs have been elected in total, 8 on two-year terms and 1 on a one-year term. You can review the results in full here.

For the Election Commission, Mdann52 (talk) 19:20, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Those elected are:

Two-year terms: Casliber, Opabinia regalis, Keilana, Drmies, Callanecc, Kelapstick, GorillaWarfare, Kirill Lokshin and

Gamaliel One-year term

Congrats to all. The voters have spoken and we've got a good group. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 21:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)