User talk:SPECIFICO

Arbitration enforcement request

I have closed the thread about you at AE reminding you of the behavioral standards expected of Wikipedia editors, and warning that not following them in the future will likely lead to sanctions. This has been logged at the arbitration enforcement log. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:26, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Got it. Thanks for your time and attention to these matters. SPECIFICO talk 14:11, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, by the way, for this. In terms of ideas for changing the approach, a couple of days ago the idea crossed my mind to look at the revision statistics of Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:MrX/w and rank editors by the number of edits and number of bytes contributed to the page, and then filtering out users who expressed moderate views on what really was a "meh" issue (Compassionate727) or who came over from AN/I (Tryptofish). The idea was to identify editors contributing to the general "battleground" noise and doing things other than advancing our goal of improving the encyclopedia. You would have ranked pretty high by that particular metric, slightly ahead of the Factchecker atyourservice user a lot of people are criticizing these days. Anyway I'm not saying you shouldn't contribute to pages like that, but I do suggest something along the lines of making a personal goal to reduce the number of comments and replies on pages like that, especially off-topic comments about other users. I'd also recommend re-thinking the way you interact with JFG. I can see how you would disagree with many of their positions, but from my perspective they are doing a pretty good job of seeking consensus and trying to work collaboratively; going after them personally [1] only makes you look bad. ~Awilley (talk) 17:52, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

I'll have a look. I am offended by gratuitous scatological rants that add nothing to our discussion. That may be de rigeur among some segments of American or other pop-culture. I see too much of it on TV and in stand-up "comedy" but I think it is very much uncalled for in an editing discussion among people who ultimately must collaborate across educational, cultural and cognitive differences. I'd be pleased to discuss JFG's behavior with you privately but I don't think I should reply in public view. I will look at the MfD and consider what you said. I think it went on way too long and all the issues were really spelled out in the first hour of a several-day thread -- so I have no doubt that I like many others should simply have ignored it after the first round. I'll look at it with your count idea in mind and see when and under what circumstance my participation ceased to add anything to the thread.

Overall, what I think would help is 3-5 times the number of Admins keeping an eye on these Politics articles and willing to hand out sanctions. I've said this repeatedly for a couple of years now. Ironically, NeilN sanctioned me for calling for enforcement on an article talk page -- after a diligent Admin responded to my plea and issued a sanction! - go figure. I think if we had many more Admins they'd be able to keep up on the kind of interactions you are deciphering and there would be clearer and more efficient enforcement. The current environment has way too high a bar for enforcement -- something DS is intended to prevent -- and the AE threads have recently become too prone to ANI-style drama. Admins are volunteers and the burden is just too great for the relatively small number of Admins who appear to be active at these articles. The editors who end up getting banned have in most cases been obvious problems months or years before the system/Admins finally deal with them. We've lost many good editors who decline to work in the chaotic environment. There must be a better way to channel all our efforts into constructive collaboration. A couple of weeks ago I was going to post a "help-wanted" ad at AN for more Admin patrols of the Politics articles. I may still do that - or maybe you could do it at the next meeting of the secret Admin's Lodge.😁 SPECIFICO talk 18:12, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, I appreciate the introspection, and I hope my comments didn't come across as pouring salt in a fresh wound. On JFG, I don't think such a discussion would be very fruitful. I tend to give higher "weight" to the complaints of users who I regularly see working collaboratively with users on both sides of the POV spectrum and calling out bad behavior on both sides when needed. For that reason I tend to give more credence to what Mandruss says about JFG than what you say. (I give an even higher weight to what MelanieN says about someone.)

I wish I had the time to dive in and start fixing problems, but these days I'm lucky if I can make more than two edits or posts in a day. The problems you are describing aren't just limited to American Politics though. We just don't have a great way to deal with POV pushers, especially the "civil" (or mildly passive aggressive) variety. POV pushing is hard to spot unless you are a long-term participant or follower in the topic area. But it's hard to be that involved without starting to feel "involved". If you are not closely following the discussion you can't take anything at face value...how can you tell if a report is from a POV pusher cherry picking diffs, or whether the "opposes" and "supports" stacking up are coming from uninvolved users or partisan warriors? It requires you to do a whole bunch of digging to uncover what is actually going on. You're basically trying to learn what the "involved" people already know from months of fighting on diverse pages, but you're trying to do it in an evening. Anyway this evening is late so I'll stop my ramblings here. ~Awilley (talk) 04:25, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, I was reading the thread at Talk:Donald_Trump#Sourcing_and_due_weight? and it reminded me to follow up on this. Have you given any more thought to setting a reply-limit for yourself? Your participation in that thread included some of the bludgeoning, personal jabs, and must-reply-to-every-comment-ism that contributed to you getting in trouble last month. I don't know if reducing the number of comments is the solution, but there definitely seems to be an inverse relationship between the number of your comments in a thread and the quality of those comments. ~Awilley (talk) 04:44, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi. Probably not the best day or best thread for that, but if you are feeling so generous, have a look at the dozen or so threads I've been on, including ones with quick disengagement, and sometime soon we can chat. SPECIFICO talk 19:03, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

AE notice

For your bright-line 1RR violation at Donald Trump, and given the multiple recent warnings you received in the AP2 area, I have opened an AE sanction process. Sorry. — JFG ^talk 13:40, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

The good faith practice in these AP articles has always been to inform the frequent editors of obvious errors rather than immediately jumping to a noticeboard. As a matter of fact, I was so careful to check whether your edit was a "revert" -- in which case it could not be reinserted without consensus -- that I forgot that I'd made that other unrelated edit the night before. At any rate, I hope you'll do editors the courtesy of a note before bringing the community and Admins into addressing such errors. I'm not the brightest horse in the barn, but I'm not dumb enough to deliberately make a "bright line violation" in a closely watched article. No harm. I suggest you withdraw your AE complaint. SPECIFICO talk 14:49, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I've opened a talk page thread here [2]. SPECIFICO talk 15:29, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Case closed. I'll be sure to give you a chance to self-revert if it happens again. — JFG ^talk 16:45, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

What I hope you'll realize is that Admins are not static. They observe your behavior over time, and they learn about you, and they adjust the framework by which they evaluate your actions. Up until the past month or so, you enjoyed the normal, default level of good will, AGF, and credibility, but your bizarre recent crusade against me has been very conspicuous. I have no doubt -- nor should you -- that various editors and Admins are forming a more evidence-based understanding in this regard. Under the circumstances, it would be unlikely that a continuation of your past behavior would be met with such benign outcomes, and it is my hope and expectation that you'll adjust your approach accordingly. Ciao. SPECIFICO talk 16:34, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SPECIFICO

Just a heads up.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:01, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. As you may know, the complainant JFG seems to have been stalking me for some time. Seems to be trying to use all sorts of noticeboards to kill me off. Kinda creepy, but I have nothing to do with that IP. You're welcome to check my IP as long as it's not disclosed. SPECIFICO talk 13:07, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Complaint withdrawn. — JFG ^talk 16:46, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

You realize that you've utterly discredited yourself over the past month. I hope you'll cut it out -- it's not just a waste of your time, but you drag down the community and encourage others to do the same. Thanks for your visit. I presume you didn't want your IP checked. SPECIFICO talk 16:53, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

AE Action

Please see WP:AE for an item that applies to you. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 14:57, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Trump anti-Semitic?

You said "Trump's tolerance or enablement of anti-Semitism". I agree. He tolerates it and even enables it in others. In fact I said so in my comment that you are replying to. But I have seen no evidence that he is personally anti-Semitic, either in his words or his actions. And that is what we are talking about here. --MelanieN (talk) 18:47, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Not really. We were just talking about whether a public figure might pander to an interest or demographic group with words that signify nothing. I actually replied at AE and got into this a bit more. Trump aside, Judeo-Christian moral and religious teaching says pretty strongly that tolerating evil is evil. Just to respond to your general point -- I don't see a difference between watching/enabling and doing bad deeds. SPECIFICO talk 19:01, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

We are talking about his personal religious views. That's what the talk page discussion is about. You are the one who keeps trying to change the subject, to whether he meant what he said on one particular occasion or was merely pandering. (If you want pandering, look at his repeated expressions of love and support for Israel; that's what his base cares about. I doubt if he cares at all about Israel.) Your reply at the AE illustrates exactly what I have already agreed to: That some of his followers are anti-Semitic, and that he does not call them on it. All of that is irrelevant to the subject under discussion at the article talk page, which is about his PERSONAL religious beliefs. You are almost certainly right in your first speculation, that he really doesn't care all that much about religion. IMO you were dead wrong in believing that his public embrace of his Jewish family was simply pandering to a group you think he despises. You keep harping on that one quote, but he has said the same thing often in many other venues. I think Atsme quoted a few of them at the discussion. There is literally no direct evidence that he hates Jews. There is a lot of direct evidence that he has no problem at all with, and even embraces, his daughter's choice of religion. That tolerance is in itself an expression of his feelings about religion and should be in the section about his religious views. That's the bottom line. --MelanieN (talk) 20:05, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Melanie, listening to you over the past couple of days, I'm having a hard time understanding why you're so exercised over this, why it has a tinge of personal accusation, and why you repeatedly misrepresent my statements -- for example that I say he despises Jewish folks, when I've said over and over the most likely thing is that he's entirely indifferent to anything in the world that doesn't benefit him more or less directly. This business about "hate Jews" is truly bizarre, and it's not appropriate for you or anyone else to make comments that would lead any reader to attribute that view to me. Gotta hop. More later. Your idea about it being any sort of issue for a family member to change religions is very strange and troubling by the way. It's a very, very loaded thing to say. SPECIFICO talk 20:11, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

1) "So exercised"? You are the one who has bludgeoned the talk page with your opinion that he was just pandering with that quote and didn't mean it. I am a latecomer to that discussion. 2) Your much-disputed paraphrase of what you thought might be going through his head - unwashed, dumb - those are things a person would say about a group he despises. 3) About a family member changing religions: I have a friend whose parents broke off all contact with her when she married a Jewish man and converted. I have a non-so-distant ancestor whose Lutheran parents literally disowned her for marrying a Catholic man. This is a real issue for some people. 4) At the talk page, just to take the conversation off that one discussed-to-death quote, I am going to post some other times he boasted of his Jewish family in front of a general audience, not a Jewish one. --MelanieN (talk) 20:28, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Template:Annoying person with an opinion—template to be created. My personal opinion is that DJT has no concept of or opinions about religion. Despite his horrid statements to the contrary, I don’t even think he is anti-Islam, much less anti-Semitic. And, I don’t think he’d care if his daughter converted to Wicca if it didn’t harm him. As far as racism, that may be a different story as I think he may have early formed biases which he is unable to shake. But, I don’t know as you can’t read the mind of a person that believes that truth is malleable. I believe that truth is beyond human ken, which is why I tend to avoid using the term unless it is provable by Boolean algebra. Mel, you’re the most balanced admin I’ve found. But, I’d probably strike the shame on you bit. Specifico, I’d probably add scare quotes to the word unwashed and give less ammo to those that don’t like you.. Regards, O3000 (talk) 00:37, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Too bad, I've always thought of myself as rather a likable type. I agree with you about Trump. He may well have the Archie Bunker Queens racial attitudes. That was just part of the atmosphere in many parts of NYC in the 1950's-1970's. It would amount to nothing if he were not in a position where his views translate into actions and influence. I also agree about the other stuff. He seems to be focused on his personal interests - business and adulation. Unfortunately he now finds himself in a position of great power where careless acquiescence to bad things does in fact implicate him in it. He could have prevented thousands of American deaths by using the US armed forces to evacuate large areas of Puerto Rico. As to whether he contemplated their deaths vs. the approval of his "base" - we'll never know. I don't think he's in the habit of reflection or self-examination, but certainly we are not going to know that. Without any interest in priorities that do not directly benefit himself, I could easily understand him resenting that folks are now holding him accountable for what was formerly private "locker room talk" - even when it's hate speech that previously never saw the light of day, or dereliction of duty that leads to unspeakable human tolls. SPECIFICO talk 00:50, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Artikel 38 and Alliance for Securing Democracy

Due to your edit, Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 June 16#Artikel 38 of interest? X1\ (talk) 20:16, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

NeilN's talk page

Hello SPECIFICO,

NeilN hatted the thread before I had a chance to respond to your ping. I was completely unaware that anyone had talked about finding a "Jewish Admin" and got involved in the discussion on NeilN's talk page only because he pinged me. It is hard for me to tell whether your comments were entirely serious or partially tongue-in-cheek. Please enlighten me. Yes, am Jewish. I am also a husband, father and grandfather, a construction worker, a small business owner, a former mountaineer, a Californian and someone interested in the history of photography and the arts. If anyone asks me my opinion about a matter related to any of these things, then I will offer it, trying to be fair and neutral in my assessments. I am a Jew but I do not specialize in editing Jewish topics and I do not push a Jewish POV. I also am very slow to express outrage. I estimate that less than 1% of my edits are related to Judaism. I can assure you that I will not make any kneejerk decisions based on my choice of religious affiliation. In conclusion, I am willing to "think long and hard", if you would indicate exactly what I am supposed to think about. Thank you. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:32, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Hello Cullen. Without context, my note must have hit like a ton of bricks. I'm traveling today so I won't be able to reply until this eve or tomorrow. My comment had nothing to do with you. "Long and hard" related to the folks who were making the fuss. It related to categorizing people and projecting a group identity on them, which is the basis of racial, religious or other identity-based bias. But I shouldn't say more until I have the time to write intelligibly. Thanks for coming here. SPECIFICO talk 12:59, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

@Cullen328: Hi. I am back, if there's anything you would like to discuss. As I said my "think hard" was directed toward the aggrieved editors who advocated soliciting the opinions of Admins who self-identify on WP as being Jewish. One was on NeilN's talk page, the other (we don't know if it was acted on) was here [3]. I don't see any point in prolonging the discussion of their actions since their views have been rejected and closed. However if you have any concerns, please let's discuss either here or via email if that's more appropriate. Thanks again for your note. SPECIFICO talk 19:30, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying who your comments were directed toward. I encourage you to choose your words more carefully, especially when dealing with "hot button" topics. I will not belabor the point now, but am always willing to discuss things. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 20:03, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Basically, the aggrieved editors were showered with good faith from the rest of the community but still remain aggrieved. If you have any interest in the American Politics articles, it would be great to have more Admins following the efforts there. It will take any newcomer Admin a lot of immersion to tell what's being done by who and why, but this is an area sorely in need of more Admin oversight. I'm afraid you were kind of blindsided, but that's not your fault. I have looked at your profile and I am pleased to meet you - very interesting background, interest, and experience. SPECIFICO talk 20:13, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Scratching my head...

I have scrolled through the entire page, and can’t find where I said what you claim I said. Diff, please? ^{Atsme📞📧} 16:16, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Looking at the comment SPECIFICO was replying to, it seems they confused you with User:PackMecEng. ~Awilley (talk) 23:10, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

I was still looking. If you've found it, I owe you one, Awilley. Eureka. My apologies Atsme. I was looking back in the archives of your posts and not coming up with anything. SPECIFICO talk 23:35, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Word PackMecEng (talk) 23:44, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Whew!! I wondered...👼🏻 that I am...😊 ^{Atsme📞📧} 02:59, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Problematic language

SPECIFICO, I see that even after you were challenged for referring to Trump's family separation policy as “child abuse”,[4] you doubled down and did it again. [5] While I don’t agree with the accusation that this is a BLP violation, it is still massively POV, inflammatory, and not language that has been used by any Reliable Source. This kind of talk at a talk page can be disruptive and make rational discussion impossible. I’m asking you not to do it again. --MelanieN (talk) 15:25, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi Melanie. I gave a link to 37 million Google returns on "'Child abuse' trump" on the talk page of the editor who complained.[6] Just cause he complains (and as I mentioned, his repeated and imo overblown-drama complaints against me have repeatedly been rejected) doesn't mean his complaints have any merit. Why would you say this language has not been used by RS after I provided the link for this guy to check (not that most of us need to -- it's been kind of hard to avoid hearing it called that). Nobody's proposed putting those words in any WP article in WP's voice ... yet. Considering this editor's history of stalking and harassing me, I think I was polite enough to go to his talk page and I note he still has not done anything to remove his WP:CRYBLP accusations which, as I'm sure you know, are the kind of thing that have gotten many editors banned from WP or from topics that relate to controversial issues. SPECIFICO talk 18:03, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

(talk page watcher)"Considering this editor's history of stalking and harassing me" That's a complete lie. MelanieN needs to know it's a lie. Unless, of course, you have some solid evidence to prove this serious accusation is true. Do you? "I think I was polite enough to go to his talk page" Another lie, as proven by this and this. There was nothing polite in your interaction at my talk page. "the kind of thing that have gotten many editors banned from WP or from topics that relate to controversial issues" So, what you're effectively saying, is that you are trying to get me banned from Wikipedia or topics. The "problematic" Melanie mentioned, as well as pot-stirring, continues. And not just here, but also at NeilN's talk page [7] -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 18:31, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Get you banned? No. This is not a video game. I hope you have a long successful participation here. Just behaving nicely. SPECIFICO talk 18:36, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

The president of the American Academy of Pediatrics called it child abuse. You can't get a more authoritative opinion than that. [8] Gandydancer (talk) 18:43, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

See Melanie's comments above re: child abuse, "it is still massively POV, inflammatory". And you nailed it, Gandydancer, it's one doctor's opinion. But even if it weren't, the conditions at these centers have not changed save for the better over the years they have been in existence (since at least 1997). Considering such, then this alleged child abuse has been going on during the Clinton presidency, the Bush 43 presidency, and the Obama presidency as well as the Trump presidency. In other words, if such massively POV and inflammatory charges are to included in any Trump article, it most certainly should be included in Obama, Bush, and Clinton articles as well, at the very least. If nothing else, if it does get included in Trump articles, the only right thing to do would be to note in the same amount of WP:WEIGHT that the same conditions for children in these centers as well as separation from illegal immigrant parents happened during and were signed off by the aforementioned presidential administrations. Wouldn't you agree? -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 19:11, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

No I would not agree and furthermore I believe that you need to spend some time researching this topic before you continue to edit with so little knowledge regarding this subject. I'm going to be very brief but I do truly hope that you will do some reading on your own. No, this is not the same situation as in the past. In the past, yes, some children were in detention centers but they were children who came here on their own, not children and even babies that had been separated from their parents and often without telling the parents where their children had been sent or even letting the parents explain to their children what was happening. And, to call the president of the AAP "just one doctor's opinion" is rather bizarre, IMO. And as for your WEIGHT concerns, please read our policy re weight and you will find that you are not correct about that either. Gandydancer (talk) 20:03, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, thanks for the Google link. I see that this kind of terminology has been used not just by the president of the American Academy of Pediatrics but also by a UN official and an open letter signed by several thousand academics. So this is not original with you and I retract that implication. I still request you not to use it on the talk page, where it is likely to disrupt discussion rather than foster it. "Trump's child abuse" is not a synonym for "family separation policy", and using it in that sense is inflammatory. --MelanieN (talk) 20:09, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

MelanieN, your request is constructive and I accept it. NeilN's apparent acceptance of the loaded POV and PA assertions of Winkelvi are disappointing. I know he is juggling many balls with all the articles and noticeboards he monitors, but aggressive editors use that kind of acquiescence to promote their agenda, and yes there's plenty of recent instances of Winkelvi making over-the-top complaints about me that were left Admins and the community unconvinced. By the time NeilN weighed in on Winkelvi's talk, I had documented all the RS support of that term to Winkelvi and (if he read the entire record) to NeilN, and Winkelvi only doubled down on his personal attacks and disparagement. Not that I'm not pleased to have Winkelvi visit my talk page any time! Just that he should not smear me on article talk pages, etc. and Admins should not take an evidently hostile editor's statements at face value. SPECIFICO talk 22:10, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, I don't think that Melanie's suggestion was in the least "constructive" and in fact I find her suggestion very disturbing indeed. My daughter and I were talking the other day about this horrendous treatment of our children and she commented, "we've lost control of our government" and went on to say that this is what probably happened in Germany when the Nazis began to take over the German government...and she called the Germans "good people, just like me!", but slowly sucked along into the horror of what happened there. And I've been thinking, I bet that if Wikipedia would have existed at that time one can be certain that you would have had a similar message to please not use the term "genocide", etc. Shameful request by Melanie IMO. I'm surprised that you agreed. I certainly don't intend to be "constructive" and if the situation arises I will not hesitate to use the term, with proper reference, on any talk page that I post on. Gandydancer (talk) 18:15, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

What can I do? Get into a sideshow scolding MelanieN and NeilN for sustaining a false equivalence between NPOV editors and NOTHERE ideologues? Scold NeilN so that he gets even more condescending and snippy when I point out his failure to connect-the-dots on various disruptive editors? Not smart moves. These Admins are stretched too thin. I have seen them be very insightful, thorough researchers and synthesizers of content and behavior. I've also seen them make an unfortunate share of errors and respond with defensive resentment when this is pointed out. These articles will get much better only if we have many more Admins actively following the content and the editors. It's beyond the ability of one Admin to fully absorb what's going on here AND patrol other topics, AND patrol Noticeboards, AND reply to all their fans and supplicants. SPECIFICO talk 18:45, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I really don't know. I understand that you are walking a very thin line here and I am not. I've seen several of our very best editors banned from articles when they were only attempting to edit reality into our articles rather than the push of a majority of WP editors that continue to hold a POV that does not actually represent the broad "scientific" consensus, if you will, opinion. I understand that when one is faced with being banned from certain articles one must bow to the decisions of those that one does not necessarily agree with. As for more admin attention to these articles, I certainly could not agree more. I am experienced in the consensus method and the thing is, to make it work you need an experienced facilitator to take a leading role. We have been able to more or less manage without that important necessity, though it may often take dozens of pages of talk and RfCs and such, but in this case we do need more management, IMO. In my experience a good facilitator does not tell the group what to do, etc., but steps in from time to time to give a picture of where the group is at and how any existing WP policies may apply to the position. Gandydancer (talk) 19:34, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes. Many of these difficulties arise in real life volunteer organizations as well, but on the internet there's a bit of adverse selection at play. No need to say more. I think you know what I mean. SPECIFICO talk 19:43, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Well actually no I don't know what you mean. (=: But as an aside, even in real life it does not always work very well either. An early experience I had in using the method was in our small Maine group protesting our entry into the Iraq war - it worked great because my daughter who led the group had had training. But then one of our group went and gave an interview to our local paper as though he was speaking for our group. It was quite an awful experience. Life can be so goddamn messy, can't it? Gandydancer (talk) 19:59, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Well your daughter ran into the bane of many volunteer organizations. But on the internet, we also have folks who do not interact very much or very well in real life. And some of them can't adjust to a collaborative environment or a set of community standards. SPECIFICO talk 20:18, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Well ker-ist all I had to do was to read the first sentence of your link: In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is to explain exactly what happened in my group (and exactly what is happening right here as well). I'll read the entire article... Gandydancer (talk) 22:00, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, there are those and thanks for the link. But then there are these as well: Psychopathy in the workplace. Perhaps the first is a threat in the bias problem due to the shear numbers (and they are often easy to pick out, like Trump for example) but the second in that they are smart, very smart, and know just exactly how to steer an article in their warped opinion of Truth and may not be so easy to deal with? Gandydancer (talk) 19:23, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

There seem to be 2 buckets of editors here. The ones who come by to get work accomplished and the ones for whom this is a primary destination environment. I think that if we insist that WP be maintained at least as well as a real-world work environment, we'd get a lot more accomplished -- even in difficult fast-changing topics. That means, e.g. that when editors deny basic sourcing and content policy we shut them down or everyone ignores them. It means we don't tolerate disingenuous or misleading edit summaries and talk page comments. It means we don't worry about hurting the feelings of disruptive editors when they harangue talk pages with evident nonsense or equivocation or cite false or fringe sources. Otherwise we lose serious productive editors and retain participants who have the time or taste for that use of their energies. SPECIFICO talk 19:35, 28 June 2018 (UTC)'

Sure! I would say bring it up on Jimbo's talk page!! But in truth and sad to say, Jimbo lives in some sort of a dreamland where his initial picture works just fine. Jeeze, mine did too, just as it worked quite well when our Peace group formed - but before it all went to hell. For the most part as far as politics go nothing has gone to hell here just yet, but will the editors that keep us swimming above water, such as you and a few others, and be able to keep us afloat for much longer? Truly, I do not mean to sound dramatic here -- my concerns are, IMO, realistic. Gandydancer (talk) 21:35, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Seems that a good remedy to an "unfortunate share of errors" and "defensive resentment" by "stretched too thin" admins would be for you to become one and restore the balance of the Force. Go RfA! — JFG ^talk 19:06, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Unwelcome

Cow mooed

You are hereby asked to not post to my talkpage again excepting to alert me to a noticeboard discussion. Feel free to remove this here if you wish.MONGO 14:49, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, be assured you are always welcome here on my talk page for praise, complaints, inspiration, and exhortation. I welcome all visitors here and I've found that's far more constructive than banning users from my little crumb of the internet. I'm sorry you don't like my visit to your page. I wasn't sure you understood what MrX was saying, but who knows, I could be mistaken and the matter is now moot. SPECIFICO talk 19:00, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Melania Trump

It's closed now so I will say it here, you are correct on why I asked. It was not to stop the close. She does seem to get in trouble quite often for her clothing choices though.[9] I did try to find an article real quick on the shoes she wore that day, but no luck sadly. Only came up with that article about her shoes. PackMecEng (talk) 00:50, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Knowing you to be a collegeal editor, it was clear to me that you were extending a simple courtesy before the obvious close could be expedited. I was quite disappointed to see the other editor project some sort of battleground interpretation on things. I find that one's often, shall we say, a bit on the edgy side of things. Thanks for your visit. SPECIFICO talk 00:54, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

I actually ran into an EC trying to close it just to clean up stuff on the TP. I have no strong opinion one way or another. I don't like recentism in general. But, the article is very brief and we see so little of her I thought it might be worth an addition. Who knows. O3000 (talk) 00:59, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

I have not read more than half a dozen sources on this, but my personal guess would be that one of the hard-liners within the White House staff went shopping for the schmatte and told her to wear it. She may not have given it a thought until someone on the plane saw it and had the expected reaction and told her to take it off. I'm sure Melania herself has not the slightest idea or concern what's available in $37 dollar poncho options for the taller woman. SPECIFICO talk 01:07, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Agent of influence

Could you please add this article to your watch-list? It's having revert issues from the same person as before, as well as an IP address. Thanks.--Froglich (talk) 00:48, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

The Right Stuff: July 2018

July 2018

DISCUSSION REPORT

WikiProject Conservatism Comes Under Fire

By Lionelt

WikiProject Conservatism was a topic of discussion at the Administrators' Noticeboard/Incident (AN/I). Objective3000 started a thread where he expressed concern regarding the number of RFC notices posted on the Discussion page suggesting that such notices "could result in swaying consensus by selective notification." Several editors participated in the relatively abbreviated six hour discussion. The assertion that the project is a "club for conservatives" was countered by editors listing examples of users who "profess no political persuasion." It was also noted that notification of WikiProjects regarding ongoing discussions is explicitly permitted by the WP:Canvassing guideline.

At one point the discussion segued to feedback about The Right Stuff. Member SPECIFICO wrote: "One thing I enjoy about the Conservatism Project is the handy newsletter that members receive on our talk pages." Atsme praised the newsletter as "first-class entertainment...BIGLY...first-class...nothing even comes close...it's amazing." Some good-natured sarcasm was offered with Objective3000 observing, "Well, they got the color right" and MrX's followup, "Wow. Yellow is the new red."

Admin Oshwah closed the thread with the result "definitely not an issue for ANI" and directing editors to the project Discussion page for any further discussion. Editor's note: originally the design and color of The Right Stuff was chosen to mimic an old, paper newspaper.

Add the Project Discussion page to your watchlist for the "latest RFCs" at WikiProject Conservatism Watch (Discuss this story)

---

ARTICLES REPORT

Margaret Thatcher Makes History Again

By Lionelt

Margaret Thatcher is the first article promoted at the new WikiProject Conservatism A-Class review. Congratulations to Neveselbert. A-Class is a quality rating which is ranked higher than GA (Good article) but the criteria are not as rigorous as FA (Featued article). WikiProject Conservatism is one of only two WikiProjects offering A-Class review, the other being WikiProject Military History. Nominate your article here. (Discuss this story)

RECENT RESEARCH

Research About AN/I

By Lionelt

Reprinted in part from the April 26, 2018 issue of The Signpost; written by Zarasophos

Out of over one hundred questioned editors, only twenty-seven (27%) are happy with the way reports of conflicts between editors are handled on the Administrators' Incident Noticeboard (AN/I), according to a recent survey . The survey also found that dissatisfaction has varied reasons including "defensive cliques" and biased administrators as well as fear of a "boomerang effect" due to a lacking rule for scope on AN/I reports. The survey also included an analysis of available quantitative data about AN/I. Some notable takeaways:

• 53% avoided making a report due to fearing it would not be handled appropriately
• "Otherwise 'popular' users often avoid heavy sanctions for issues that would get new editors banned."
• "Discussions need to be clerked to keep them from raising more problems than they solve."

In the wake of Zarasophos' article editors discussed the AN/I survey at The Signpost and also at AN/I. Ironically a portion of the AN/I thread was hatted due to "off-topic sniping." To follow-up the problems identified by the research project the Wikimedia Foundation Anti-Harassment Tools team and Support and Safety team initiated a discussion. You can express your thoughts and ideas here.

(Discuss this story)

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Delivered: 09:27, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Please self-revert

Dear SPECIFICO, with these edits[10][11][12][13][14] you are misrepresenting sources and edit-warring against talk page consensus. As I already twice told you on the talk page,[15][16] this attitude is disruptive. Please self-revert or get ready to defend yourself at WP:AE. — JFG ^talk 12:36, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Haven't seen you around in a bit

Hey how have you been? Not seen you around much lately! PackMecEng (talk) 18:34, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi! Traveling and out of communication through Sept, but I do check in from time to time when I'm in port. Good to hear from you. All the best. SPECIFICO talk 19:26, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Sounds lovely Have fun! PackMecEng (talk) 19:51, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Happy to see you back. — JFG ^talk 08:22, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Angela Cappetta, again

Same problem, rearing it's head. see this edit and prev 2 please, the insistence on using the subject's own webpage/blog as a source to include info about her work. Perhaps it's time to remove the article under WP:Notability as you previously suggested? Thanks. 172.58.225.32 (talk) 21:28, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Userpage

Hi, Not moaning but came to say please use preview infuture especially when you're trying to ping someone, Your cock up has unfortunately led to this which I take no responsibility for, Thanks and have a nice day. –Davey2010^Talk 17:29, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Oh, now, it could happen to anybody, Davey2010. Imagine that different brackets can make such a huge difference, I would not have expected it. And.. and.. (trying not to laugh), you actually did post on Winkelvi's userpage? Try to see the humour in it. Bishonen | talk 17:45, 11 August 2018 (UTC).

Or at least irony. SPECIFICO talk 17:47, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Bishonen - I clicked here and assumed the reply would go exactly there .... I never spotted in the edit preview I was on someone elses userpage .... When you're busy with other things IRL you kinda don't expect crap like this to happen, Suppose it doesn't help I've been under the weather for the past few days aswell. Ah well –Davey2010^Talk 17:59, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Sure. Feel better, Davey2010. Bishonen | talk 18:30, 11 August 2018 (UTC).

Thanks Bishonen, Also SPECIFICO please ignore the grumpy note above which I apologise for - I moan at you for not using preview and the irony of it all is that I didn't either!, Meh mistakes happen :), Thanks, –Davey2010^Talk 18:42, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Special discretionary sanctions

Please be aware that you are now subject to the following sanctions:

• The No Personal Comments sanction and Thicker Skin sanction outlined at User:Awilley/Special discretionary sanctions#No personal comments and thicker skin sanctions
• The Anti-filibuster sanction described at User:Awilley/Special discretionary sanctions#Anti-filibuster sanction
• The Courtesy in reporting sanction described at User:Awilley/Special discretionary sanctions#Courtesy in reporting sanction

These sanctions are for the topic area of post-1932 politics for a duration of 1 year. The sanctions have been imposed based in part on behaviors like the WP:BLUDGEONing in this TP section and here (also contains examples of personal comments), and aggressively editing others' comments to remove perceived personal attacks against yourself [17] [18].

These sanctions are imposed in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator under the authority of the Arbitration Committee's decision at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2#Final decision and will be logged here. Violations of the sanctions will trigger the enforcement procedures outlined at User:Awilley/Special discretionary sanctions#Enforcement: 1-week non-escalating topic ban. Note that you are extremely unlikely to be topic banned or blocked for accidental violations of the sanctions, provided you are willing to correct your own mistakes without administrative intervention. Also note that these sanctions are intended to enforce good behavioral norms that you should probably be observing anyway.

You may appeal this sanction using the process described here, or directly to me. Please contact me with questions or if anything of the above is unclear. Lastly, I hope you don't get the impression that this has something to do with your criticism of my close the other day. This has been in the works for some time now. ~Awilley (talk) 21:27, 13 August 2018 (UTC) ~Awilley (talk) 21:27, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Willey, granted you have a fertile imagination, but you'd be well advised to put these absurdities back in the closet and reverse yourself before you get yourself nose-deep in a huge pointless mess. If you feel like tinkering, the place to do it would be at the level of page restrictions in the AP articles. @Bullrangifer: @Volunteer Marek: SPECIFICO talk 21:36, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Specifico, I wouldn’t suggest an appeal, at least for months and then to Awilley. I value your work and think these sanctions will actually improve your value. And frankly, they’ll save you time and aggravation. Regards, O3000 (talk) 21:42, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't undertake an appeal -- I think there are larger problems with Awilley in many respects, and his page of do-it-yourself ruminations he calls special sanctions looks more like "Mad Hatter aplay on the internet" than anything Arbcom or the more thoughtful volunteers at AE would consider useful. I don't know how many editors he's doing this with or why, but in my case, the reasons he cites are downright ludicrous -- some downright invalid, some already adjudicated without any prejudice against me (the anti-Semitism nonsense) etc. It's not even worth parsing all the detail. Maybe some more seasoned and insightful Admins will see this and maybe they'll give Awilley a little friendly help in the Admin's Lounge. SPECIFICO talk 21:49, 13 August 2018 (UTC)