User talk:SageRad

New Year House Cleaning

Nice and clean here. Much easier to deal with. Sometimes you gotta clean house. SageRad (talk) 15:34, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Rules for feedback/critcism

Some things I've snapped up during my unwilling meandering through management - not that I always manage to follow them:

• Start with positive feedback
• Phrase negative feedback constructively
• Avoid negative feedback and criticism of behaviour in public venues and in front of audiences - people will just dig in

...just in case it applies sometimes ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:54, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Seems helpful. I generally have tried to do this when i can manage the awareness. Regarding the last one, nearly everywhere on Wikipedia is public, and in a sense public discourse is an important aspect of this place. Cheers and thank you. SageRad (talk) 12:06, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Harassment policy

Hi Sage, I just re-read WP:Harassment and I thought you might be interested in the following. It states The prohibition against harassment applies equally to all Wikipedians. It is as unacceptable to harass a user with a history of inept or disruptive behavior as it is to harass any other user. Wikipedia encourages a civil community: people make mistakes, but they are encouraged to learn from them and change their ways. Harassment is contrary to this spirit and damaging to the work of building an encyclopedia. All the best.DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:52, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

YES, I know is the policy, but the actuality is that most people here don't give a rats ass about civility our about policy and bullies run rampant. Thankfully a few editors here and there have the integrity to stand up to bullying and harassment and abuse. I will continue to do so even though it garners me abuse and harassment as a result. Someone has to stand up to it. Thank you for doing so, DrChrissy. SageRad (talk) 21:26, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Sage, I just want to point out that you are using and misusing the word "bully" a lot. I can't help notice that editors who do this often find themselves indefinitely blocked. It's a pattern I've noticed over time. Instead of calling people names and complaining all the time, be the change you want to see starting with your own behavior. Have you ever noticed how a genuine smile is infectious and can brighten up an entire room? Try to wiki-smile instead of wiki-complaining all the time and see what happens. Viriditas (talk) 06:27, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Viriditas, i am using the word bully to refer to actual bullying behaviors. Please stay off my talk page. Your contributions here to date have been wholly unhelpful and subtly controlling and hostile. In other words, ironically, harassment. SageRad (talk) 11:38, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Got a minute?

Hey Sage, I hope cleaning up here has helped clear up your headspace as well. Sorry to keep pestering you, but are you still interested in helping me work on Efficient energy use? I keep asking because I have a hard time finding other editors who are even willing to look at my work in the first place. Either way, I do hope your cleaning house here is an indication that you're gonna stick around.--FacultiesIntact (talk) 22:48, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:List of oldest living people

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FYI

You have been reported at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement for violation of your topic ban from the Genetically Modified Organism Arbcom case. Edward321 (talk) 01:46, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Edward321, i opened up Wikipedia to do some article improvement, and then i have to waste my time on this? What a load of crap. What a pain the arse. No thank you. This is more of the same McCarthyism dynamic, in fact it takes it to a more McCarthyist level than it was at before. "Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?"

Like i wrote there:

This is absolutely ridiculous. I'm observing the topic ban to a ridiculous degree. I have not edited anything about GMOs or agrochemicals at all since the topic ban. Period. I'm not stupid. I know that violating my topic ban would be suicide. Someone obviously spent a lot of time trying to compile a case. Looks like enemies have it out for me. I'm editing with integrity and not touching the areas from which i am topic banned. I don't have time to waste on this and i'm not even going to grace this case with any point-by-point rebuttal. It's clear this is a witch hunt trying to find an excuse to get me blocked. SageRad (talk) 10:54, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

But, just to be safe, none of the diffs provided show me discussing GMOs or agrochemicals at all -- because i have not. And when Kingofaces writes:

SageRad has also been commenting directly at ANI on a discussion on GMOs

he's actually speaking of a conversation that begins with:

Editor KingOfAces casts aspersions Kingofaces43 is casting very serious aspersions, and here - where he essential frames everybody participating in a OR noticeboard discussion as a climate change denier, among his common theme as fringe.

In other words -- it's not "a discussion on GMOs" -- it's a discussion on meta-level aspects of Wikipedia culture, mainly about the use of "fringe" as an aspersion, and how we deal with name-calling, and all that. It is not a discussion on GMOs, and his trying to frame it as such is a lie.

And once again, what Kingofaces calls:

They also responded directly to me at WP:FTN when I asked for more eyes on this GMO discussion

links actually to this diff which has nothing to do with GMOs. Again, a lie.

And most of his issue seems to be that i have opinions and speak against a McCarthyism sort of dynamic that i see going on. Ironically, this very case here is another such incident within that dynamic. I should not have to be wasting my time on this.

As for DuPont -- my edits on that company (and Dow who have merged with them, hence [1]) have been about the chemical PFOA (like this edit [2]) which is not an agrochemical. It's a Teflon additive that did pollute water in West Virginia and in the Ohio River. That's not at all under my topic ban. And i also edited about Styrofoam [3] to correct a trade name. Styrofoam is made by Dow but Thermacol is made by another company. I also made the same change at Polystyrene to correct that trade name -- again, another chemical also made by Dow (my edit).

Seriously, my edit to Charles Eisenstein [4] ??????? This is out of control. So he's a wonderful thinker, author of Sacred Economics and a social change agent in the world. He probably wrote something about GMOs sometime, but i've never read it, and it's not his main thing, not what he's known for. You're really stretching. This is looking like McCarthyism, sort of proving my point, the actual point for which this case appears to have been brought against me.

So, even though i said i wouldn't, i just went through all the diffs provided, and as i know, they do not show me editing anything at all about GMOs or agrochemicals. I know this because my conscience is clear. I have not edited anything about GMOs or agrochemicals at all since the topic ban. I ask for this case to be summarily dropped, as it's onerous and seems to be intended to "get me" for being outspoken on cultural issues within Wikipedia. Good day. SageRad (talk) 11:24, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Yo! I'm being witch-hunted. Check it out. ^^^^^^

Word. I guess i spoke too much of what's real here on Wikipedia and too many people are pissed off at me and so want to use a weasel argument to say that i violated the topic ban that was wrong to begin with, but which i absolutely did not violate at all.

I'm topic banned from editing about GMOs and agrochemicals -- and i have not. And there has been a clarification that states that i can make basic non-related edits about companies that may also produce such things, which would be under discretionary sanctions. And yet they're trying to make it out as if i've broken my topic ban so they have an excuse to block me for whatever length of time -- it's a McCarthyist thing. Really it is.

Here's the case they're making against me. It's so empty it's sad and yet they're gonna perhaps block me because of it. It's another travesty and sham. This place has no integrity. Wonder if it ever did. I bet back around the beginning there was probably some integrity here but since i've been editing i ain't seen it.

SageRad (talk) 17:05, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Sage - have a look at this statement by an arbitrator no less, and the support of other arbs.[5]DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:16, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Wait a second - he edited that. will be back with the correct one.DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:18, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Here we go - have a look at this [6]DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:19, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

And... shit gets worse and worse... and one editor calls anyone who writes a word in my defense "the peanut gallery" and everyone thinks that's okay -- and meanwhile there's conservative people changing other people's comments on the essay that some people say "should die".... there's such bullshit here on Wikipedia -- how can anyone get any editing done. I'm just wanting to improve articles like ExxonMobil climate change controversy and Experimental evolution and Zika virus and Buffalo hunting and answer Legobot calls like Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach which i've done, and much more... the real work of Wikipedia ... and yet i'm in this stupid drama with people holding a knife to my throat and all these drama-makers trying to find ways to get me banned from Wikipedia -- because i speak honestly and see much. SageRad (talk) 11:39, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I apologise for my accidental revert. -Roxy the dog™ woof 13:33, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

It's time for everyone to listen to some Bach and take a chill pill. SageRad (talk) 11:42, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I did agree with some of what the filer was saying, but a lot of those diffs were relatively innocuous given what you actually wrote and where. Some of the other edits were problematic, but you were given specific permission to make non-GMO-related edits to company articles, so those should have been expressly excluded from consideration.

That being said, as someone else who was said to have missed the point of an AE filing, what I've guessed is going on is that the purpose of the topic ban was not just to keep you out of the fight (their words) but to compel you to edit other parts of Wikipedia in the hope that you'd decide to stay away permanently. (Why they can't just come out and say this remains unknown to me. Research pending.) Your edits, even the non-violation edits, proved that you're still paying attention to these pages and this issue. If you're planning to appeal the ban, that might work against you. I'm developing a draft for an AE procedure FAQ, so if you as someone who ran into misunderstandings at AE want to comment or discuss your experience, that would be valuable. Whatever else is right and wrong about the procedure, it helps if everyone knows what is expected of them going in. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:52, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach

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Note

In dif you confessed to editing in a WP:POINTy way. You should not make POINTy edits. Jytdog (talk) 17:59, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog that's a talk page. That's completely different from the meaning of WP:POINT. You'll note that all the examples on that page are about article mainspace editing. Talk page discussions are different. Thanks for looking out but i think my dialogue there was fine and was made with good intent and fair manners. In talk page discussions, showing a parity of a number of sources can be understood as a reasonable mode of dialogue. SageRad (talk) 18:04, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I did once make a pointy edit to an article back in last April or so... and i apologized for it and haven't done such a thing since. SageRad (talk) 18:05, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't know where you got the idea from, but let me clarify that the page is called Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point not Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia articles to illustrate a point. It applies to all of Wikipedia. HighInBC 18:21, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

HighInBC are you accusing me of disrupting Wikipedia by posting on a talk page a comment in which i showed that i can also list many sources to show that an alternate point of view exists? Let's be very clear. Are you accusing me of being disruptive in this dif or in the comment on a talk page to which it refers? If so then please state it explicitly, otherwise please retract or otherwise rephrase your above comment so that i don't think you're saying that. If you think i was actually being disruptive then please explain how? We talk on talk pages to arrive at understandings about articles and this is one way in which people speak. Are you accusing me of being disruptive there? SageRad (talk) 18:26, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I accused you of nothing. I corrected your assertion that WP:POINT only applies to articles. I never said you were being disruptive, never even checked. HighInBC 20:32, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Ok, I appreciate it. Thanks for the clarification. I read WP:POINT to mainly speak to making edits to articles that would not normally be made, for the purpose of making a point, to the detriment of Wikipedia. I don't believe i did that here, so i feel ok in my conscience. I read in the guidelined:

However, just because someone is making a point does not mean that they are disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate that point. As a rule, editors engaging in "POINTy" behavior are making edits with which they do not actually agree, for the deliberate purpose of drawing attention and provoking opposition in the hopes of making other editors see their "point".

All i did was to post a talk page comment in which i linked each of several words in a row to articles that spoke to my point to show that there are such sources, in response to another editor who did the same to try to show that sources lean the other direction. SageRad (talk) 21:31, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• To all those following this thread Check the thread above the diff. I'm not sure where Jytdog is coming from, but what Sage did was not pointy, because it was not -in any way- disruptive. I linked a number of sources using in-line links to words in my message, and he responded the same way. I'll be the first to point out that most of his links didn't say what he claims they said (and the ones that did... yeesh, they were pretty much the definition of poor source), but there was absolutely nothing improper about the way he did it. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 15:10, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• Thanks, MjolnirPants, i appreciate the acknolwedgment -- although with a dose of critique too. So while thanking you for the acknowledgement, i must also point out that the sources that say it's not a fad diet are not all top-notch and i never claimed they were, but the sources saying it is a fad diet are also not all top-notch, and there is also the issue of "parity" as it's been called, by which we cannot always expect that there will be an equivalent source countering every cranky claim about something, so we can use what we have. As for some sources not saying what i represented them as, please read my original quote more carefully, for there were two sources that i specifically said did not say it's not a fad diet, but simply were mainstream sources that called it a diet and not a "fad diet" as a way to show another things. Thanks for the good words of integrity here about the behavioral allegtions, though. Much appreciated. SageRad (talk) 16:09, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

@SageRad: All of the sources I provided said outright that it was a fad diet. Only two of the sources you provided said outright that it wasn't, and those were pro-paleo diet sources. I find your rhetoric acceptable and non-disruptive, but the logic of your response was lacking. I think one can demonstrate that the response was not disruptive by pointing out that nobody indicated it was until a poor choice of words on your part later on seemed to imply that it was intended to be. (I don't think that's what you meant, but your words did seem to imply it.) It certainly doesn't hurt that I never even noticed your response until today. It couldn't have been that disruptive if it wasn't even noticeable. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 16:45, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

MjolnirPants, what SR wrote was

All these comments are gamy. I countered a linked list rhetoric devide with a linked list rhetoric device just to show it can be done. Many sources that say it's a fad are also B-grade and POV-laden sources. There isn't a genuine and unbiased attempt at discerning the reality here. There's rhetoric and POV pushing. Like i said, you can't build a good house when there's a constant high wind blowing. There's not an atmosphere here in which a real dialogue can be had to determine the best way to write this article. There's a constant wind blowing.

The bolded text is the definition of POINTY - protesting what he sees as a bullshitty argument by proposing another one, "just to show it can be done" (i.e. to make a point) - not because what he proposed is actually what he wanted. This kind of tactic is something that we humans resort to when we are frustrated; but it is unhelpful and disruptive, and is why POINTy was written. Jytdog (talk) 16:26, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) @Jytdog: Yes, he formatted his response to make a point. I think what he was saying in the bolded section of the quote you provided was that he can find sources which say it's not a fad to counter my point that there are sources which say it is. I'm reasonably sure that was his point. Even if it wasn't, his response wasn't inherently disruptive and the formatting he chose didn't make it more disruptive. From where I sit, something must be disruptive to fall under the aegis of WP:POINT. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 16:32, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

here is the diff I believe I believe he was describing. In that dif he used crap sources like this and this and this and this (written by the recipe columnist for the Telegraph). Not one of those is a serious source. SR was not making a serious argument about what reliable sources actually say - he was just making a POINTy "meta" argument that just added more smoke and heat, not clarity toward reaching some consensus on content - not working to actually improve the content. Jytdog (talk) 16:41, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, they are crap sources. But even if he didn't intend them to be taken as serious sources, it wasn't disruptive. The argument continued, and as I pointed out above to SageRad: I didn't even notice his response until today. How disruptive could it have been, if it went unnoticed by the person to whom it was directed for days? MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 16:45, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

You and I disagree there. It doesn't matter if you paid any attention to it; the behavior is the behavior and it is right in line with taking up acres and acres of talk space repeating an argument, not responding to requests for sources, making POINTy arguments, etc etc. It is what POV-pushers do, and that is what is going on here, as you have noted. Jytdog (talk) 18:23, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Discussion takes up space. Filibustering is disruptive but discussion with detail and completeness is necessary. I was not being "POINTy" because that would require being disruptive and it would require making an edit that i do not actually agree with in order to "make a point" which was absolutely not what i did. And it's odd that you take up "acres and acres of space" discussing little things like this in which i was not being disruptive and simply speaking my considered thoughts about a topic, citing sources, explaining myself, and the like of usual and expected behaviors here at Wikipedia. I could say to you that i find this rather hounding and vexing and disruptive in itself. SageRad (talk) 18:52, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• The goal of my post was to remind SageRad not to make POINTy edits. I am not going to wikilawyer this to death. Just don't do it, please. Jytdog (talk) 19:00, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities

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Please comment on Talk:China

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DRN on Bach

Since you voted on the (more recent) RfC on Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach, you may be interested in the current discussion on it on the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. Marlindale (talk) 20:00, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Marlindale. I'll check it out. SageRad (talk) 20:03, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

JSB RfC closed

Please see Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach/Second RfC closed Feb. 22, now what? Marlindale (talk) 01:10, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

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Last call at Bach page

Your opinion at the Bach talk page RfC has recently been hatted. The RfC is about to close if you can revive your strong comment there. Cheers. Fountains-of-Paris (talk) 16:57, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

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Not appropriate

This is not appropriate behaviour on an article talk pages. The article talk page is for discussing the article, not for discussing other editors. If you think there are concerns about another editors behaviour then you can leave the a polite message on their talk page, or if very serious then you can post at a noticeboard. Be sure you have evidence to back up your claims if you intend to make them. HighInBC 21:25, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

(ec) I removed the comments from the talk page because they were unrelated to improving the article. --Ronz (talk) 21:45, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

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Your recent comments

SageRad, I understand your recent comments. I don't agree but perhaps that is a matter of perspective. As you may be aware the editor in question and I have had a less than ideal working relationship. Around March 2nd I was happy to be done with the ExxonMobil articles and was already discussing some Ford Pinto fuel tank controversy edits on the article talk page. The editor in question followed me to that page (and the Chrysler article) and proceeded to try to put an anti-corporate spin on things. Note the editor had never worked in the auto topic space before but suddenly discovered an interest after looking at my edit history. The interest was even added to his home page! In both the Pinto and Chrysler cases the editor's engagement resulted in a great deal of article disruption (see the talk pages and 250+ edits to the Pinto article in just 5 days). I'm not the only one who questioned the motives. Look at the characterization of the editors who didn't agree here, "fanboyz" [7] These are largely the same editors (me included) that are involved here [8]. Given the recent auto topic related edit warring, bludgeoning and refusal to engage in productive talk page discussion I think people can be forgiven for not assuming good faith. Especially when one editor, seemingly on a quest to jam pet content into several topics (see his earlier efforts with Pinto material in non-Pinto articles) into a topic that was not political since its inception a decade past. I don't think the involved editors would disagree with my comments. That said, you are right that I probably went too far in my frustration in dealing with the editor. Springee (talk) 11:29, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

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May 2016

Hello, I'm MjolnirPants. I noticed that you made a comment that didn't seem very civil, so it has been removed. Wikipedia is built on collaboration, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 12:53, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) @MjolnirPants:I have known SageRad on WP for some time now and I was extremely surprised to see an allegation of incivility directed at them. I have checked your recent contributions, and I can not see such a deletion. Have you contacted the correct editor? DrChrissy ^(talk) 14:02, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Was thinking the same thing, all I can see is this interaction -- samtar ^{talk or stalk} 14:13, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

It was directed at me and other contributors at the FTN, and it was made here. It referred to us (by exclusion) as "McCarthyist" and suggested we "...see it as [our] mission to declare and root out all content that collides with [our] ideological agenda." I struck out the comments rather than delete them, here. This was not the first time Sage cast aspersions on those who disagree with him about this particular subject. This is, indeed, a bit out of character for Sage, which is why I struck it out. Normally, I would stick to advising an editor to remain civil directly, at the page in question. In this case, with Sage (to my view) acting out of character, I thought a more formal response might be more appropriate. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 14:46, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

To be honest, I feel striking another editor's comments without their permission is way up on the scale of incivility. WP:Talk states Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page. Striking text constitutes a change in meaning, and should only be done by the user who wrote it or someone acting at their explicit request. I strongly suggest you reconsider your strike. DrChrissy ^(talk) 14:58, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Removing harmful posts, including personal attacks, trolling, and vandalism. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 12:44, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

You forgot the sentence afterwards. Removing harmful posts, including personal attacks, trolling, and vandalism. This generally does not extend to messages that are merely uncivil (my emphasis); deletions of simple invective are controversial. Posts that may be considered disruptive in various ways are another borderline case and are usually best left as-is or archived. I note that your opening sentence to this thread was a concern about incivility. I really do suggest you reverse your striking. DrChrissy ^(talk) 12:59, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

I did not forget it. "Uncivil" is different from a personal attack. Calling a group of editors "McCarthyists" is a personal attack, not merely uncivil. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 14:16, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

So where does it say that it is OK to strike another editor's comments? The quote you gave above is removal. WP:Civil states It is not normally appropriate to edit or remove another editor's comment. Exceptions include to remove obvious trolling or vandalism, or if the comment is on your own user talk page. SageRad's comments were neither vandalism or trolling. DrChrissy ^(talk) 14:45, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

@MjolnirPants: You made this allegation that i made an uncivil comment but you don't tell what comment or who removed it -- please fill in these gaps of information. And i really don't have time for drama so please lower your squalch knob if you can, and let other people speak to the nature of things on a talk page about an article if it's what i think it's about. If it's what i think it's about then i was pointing out that someone hacked an article and didn't even put a note on the talk page. So, specifics please, and also i don't find this stuff amusing and would rather not deal with petty accusations. SageRad (talk) 11:48, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

@MjolnirPants: Hey buddy, i didn't like you saying "pro-fringe editors" -- that tripped my wire as an aspersion and it's what made me use the term "McCarthyist" ..... so can i get your comment removed please? Can you redact the term "pro-fringe" -- you see how it's all relative? SageRad (talk) 11:55, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

You made this allegation that i made an uncivil comment but you don't tell what comment or who removed it -- please fill in these gaps of information. I have already answered that question.

Hey buddy, i didn't like you saying "pro-fringe editors" -- that tripped my wire as an aspersion and it's what made me use the term "McCarthyist" ..... Substituting sarcasm for a valid point doesn't get you anywhere.

you see how it's all relative? No. Because you're grasping at straws to defend your actions instead of owning up to them like a responsible adult. "Pro-fringe" is not an insult. "McCarthyist" is. You already know this. However, it's clear now that you won't listen to civil advice, so in the future, you can expect templating and ANI discussions from me in response to this sort of behavior. I'd rather you simply calm down, because I do have some respect for you as an editor, but that's entirely up to you. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 12:39, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

@MjolnirPants. You really, really need to dial this down. You have clearly just threatened to harass SageRad in the future. DrChrissy ^(talk) 13:08, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for reading my mind for me. Would you please tell me what I would like to have for lunch today? Oh, and would I rather watch a movie or play a video game with my son, tonight? I think I can handle the rest for now, but I'll come hit you up anytime I need to be sure what I was thinking or intending.

Alternatively, you could stop putting words in my mouth and stop telling me what I actually meant by what I said. It's your choice, really. Of course, given the difference between what I actually said and what you're sitting here telling me I said, there's the possibility that you just don't know any better. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 14:16, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

@MjolnirPants: It was not sarcasm. (Maybe "buddy" was sarcasm, i am not sure if it qualifies, and i really do wish to be your buddy, to collegiately discuss these things with you. Saying "Hey buddy" was a little rough, and i'm sorry for that.) I find the use of the term "pro-fringe" to be as much a painting of prejudice in a personal attack way as my response that used "McCarthyist". To paint people as "pro-fringe" and group them into an action is the same kind of thing i did to which you are objecting, is it not? I was commenting on what i see as a pattern of editorship. You were doing the same. You seem to see a "pro-fringe" phalanx trying to get things into Wikipedia. Well, i see a McCarthyist-toned flavor of editors who seem to think it's their personal mission to root out any non-mainstream content from Wikipedia, despite the policies not supporting this mission.

If you are judging some editors who wish to retain the article on State Crimes Against Democracy as all or mostly being "pro-fringe", i find this an insult. Here you are declaring that "McCarthyist" is an insult and that "pro-fringe" is not. I happen to disagree. I think "pro-fringe" is an insult in this context, and is also not accurate. The term "fringe" in itself is an insulting term, a trash can moniker, a symbol that means "this is garbage and nonsense and you who defend it must be wearing a tin foil hat to protect your brain against the red LEDs" or something like that.

This could be an opening for us to figure out our differences through dialog. I will explain what i mean by "McCarthyist". I use it as a shorthand to express a political witch hunting for ideological purging or purification. I see this in Wikipedia when people call some political term or concept "fringe" and wish to purge it from Wikipedia. I see this as harmful, as it attempts to make Wikipedia more Mainstream#In_sociology. Note from the hyperlink that "mainstream" in this context does not mean "more correct" but connotes more of an agreement with the dominant political ideology desired by the elite or powerful interests in society, and pushing a conformity of thought. Would you please help by defining what you mean by "pro-fringe" and we can see if these definitions meet up, or not?

One way that i see "McCarthyism" is the sliding of the scale by which "fringe" is judged. In the way that McCarthy used the idea of a threat of hostile entities wishing to overthrow the U.S. government to harass and punish people who had socialist ideals and expressed them, i see "fringe" as having an extreme form that is real, but the concept being used in Wikipedia to punish articles and concepts relating to "non-mainstream" ideas.

The term is definitely disparaging, in the real world and in Wikipedia especially. If you dispute this, please do. I find that it's a term of derision that wants to discredit the validity of some ideas and label them as totally invalid. I see this happening in Wikipedia at an alarming rate.

I am sorry that i offended you, and i wish to know exactly how i offended you with my language. Please do help me to understand more. I don't think it was right to strike part of my comment, but i do also see how i might have been more Socratic, and drawn out what i wanted to express from your responses to well-formed questions. Let this be the opportunity for that exchange, then. No harm, no foul about the strikeout. SageRad (talk) 00:40, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Notice I pinged them. No reply. SageRad (talk) 13:48, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

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Elite criminality

Hello SageRad,

The AfD on 'State Crimes Against Democracy' was decided and the article has been deleted, but the closing admin was very kind in his response to my query about the basis of his decision.

User_talk:Sandstein#State_Crimes_Against_Democracy

Quote:

Hi JerryRussell. Deletion discussions are not votes, but here we have a clear majority in favor of keeping, so the only way to escape a consensus to delete would be if the "keep" opinions were particularly compelling, or the "delete" opinions were particularly weak. That's not the case. Discussion centers on the quality of sources, and that's something people can disagree about in good faith. If anything, SageRad's opinion to keep because it's "a useful article about an actual term" would need discounting because it isn't based in policy or practice, see WP:USEFUL. Sandstein 08:08, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm thinking that I talked too much at the delete discussion, I won't do that again. I'm a new editor here, my specific goals are to create articles and links related to Roman influences on Christianity, and regarding Lanierite theory of Shakespeare authorship. I was recently scolded & warned by Bishonen for activities on a Shakespeare talk section, and was curious what kind of person Bishonen was, and thus I clicked on the link to her 'delete' opinion on SCAD. I would've thought that SCAD would be a shoe-in for GNG and I was, frankly, stunned at the vehemence of opposition to the article.

Both my intended topics are regarded as 'fringe' around here, and I'm not sure what (if anything) to do about that. It also seems to me that the information in the SCAD article should be on Wiki; I wonder if the article could be reframed around the broader topic of criminality by states or elite individuals, and given a new title?JerryRussell (talk) 17:01, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Or, Sandstein's comment seems to leave the door wide open for a deletion review. It might be interesting to find out a broader cross-section of admin opinion about this.JerryRussell (talk) 17:14, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

@JerryRussell:Jerry, it is the views and opinions of the community as a whole that matter, not just the admins. (You may have just mis-typed, if so, I apologise for drawing attention to this.) DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:04, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello DrChrissy, thanks very much for your correction. I was under the mistaken impression that deletion review was for admins.JerryRussell (talk) 16:00, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

WP:AFD states "... after which the deletion process proceeds based on community consensus". There are very things admins can decide upon which non-admins can not. The idea is that they are administrators, not super-editors with a greater say or vote in matters. And as with any group of humans, there are good ones and bad ones. DrChrissy ^(talk) 16:10, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

@JerryRussell:, welcome to Wikipedia. I've been here for over a year and I have discovered that there is a very large contingent of people with a certain ideological agenda who are willing to use all sorts of games and lawyer ring to get their way in regard to the content despite the guidelines and policies. This was one more such case of it. That is why I used the term McCarthyism. I didn't use it accidentally. There is a kind of ideological pushiness and demonization of people who disagree that is very reminiscent of the McCarthyism as relates to communist ideas in the United States in the 1950s. There is a systematic program to root out all sorts of things that a certain group labels Fringe. The word is the new word for communism if we continue the metaphor of McCarthyism. I don't know what to do about this. But at least I can name it and call it out. And even doing so I get attacked quite often for just doing so. I am remarking on a sociological observation that I have made during my time editing in Wikipedia. I'm not particularly blaming any particular individual, but I'm calling out a friend that is very harmful to the encyclopedia. It is actually harmful to humanity at large because it is limiting people's access to knowledge based upon a certain ideological filter that they have not chosen and are not aware of. Sure a deletion review would be great. But the problem is much much much much much deeper than a single article or question period there's a cultural problem with in Wikipedia and there is a balance of power that has shifted toward this sort of fascist group. SageRad (talk) 13:53, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

SageRad, thanks for your welcome message. I appreciate your view of the systematic cultural situation at Wikipedia. I feel that my best strategy as a new editor would be to just gain some more experience about the way this place works. I will take your advice to add WP:NPOVN to my watchlist, and participate there.

What are your thoughts about the best approach to getting the SCAD material back in Wikipedia? Deletion review? New article with different title? Or, the information could be incorporated into the White-collar crime article.

One more thing. Could I ask a favor? My first two articles here are Hall Carbine Affair and Caesar's Messiah. Could you take a look at them, and the talk page for CM, and give me your thoughts as to any changes I should make to give these articles a better chance of surviving attack?JerryRussell (talk) 16:00, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Jerry, I took the liberty of having a quick look at the HCA page and making some copy edits. What the article is lacking most at the moment is a summary introduction - the lead. Try looking at WP:Lead if you are not familiar with this. I am not sure the last reference would be considered a reliable source. DrChrissy ^(talk) 16:32, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks DrChrissy. I will write a lead. There is only one item left in the 'further reading' section, and it's also called out in the references. So should I just get rid of that section?

As to the 'last reference', are you concerned about the box of files at Yale Library, or about the Irvin book chapter, or both? Irvin's argument in the book chapter is based on the original source in the Yale document collection. In terms of Wiki's basic verifiability policy, can I argue that the best verifiability is provided by giving both the primary source, and the secondary interpretation, so that the interested readers can check for themselves whether the secondary source has correctly interpreted the primary? I can imagine someone claiming that Irvin is not a reputable author, John Rush is not a reputable editor, Atlantic Press is not a reputable publisher, and so forth. If there are any pragmatic editors left, I should hope that an appeal to the primary source might turn the tide.JerryRussell (talk) 17:19, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Jerry, this has developed into a content matter so I am taking it over to the Hall Carbine Affair Talk page leaving SageRad's page in peace!;-) DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:23, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

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Glyphosate

Sage, you cannot make those edits, because you are still topic-banned. I feel badly about telling you this, but it's the way things are. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:16, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

It was (1) correcting a serious mistake in the article, and (2) in the opposite direction from the supposed bias that i'm supposed to have by the McCarthyist agenda-ridden people who led the kangaroo court that banned me, and (3) the topic ban was a pile of steaming crap to begin with. Thank, Tryptofish but i edit for accuracy, and saw a serious inaccuracy in the glyphosate article, and the world deserves good knowledge. This is what Wikipedia is all about. Integrity. Integrity was completely lacking in the inquisition of last year. SageRad (talk) 22:19, 19 July 2016 (UTC)