Wikipedia:Administrative action review

Administrative action review (XRV/AARV) determines whether use of the administrator tools or other advanced permissions is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Any action (or set of related actions) involving a tool not available to all confirmed editors—except those covered by another, more specific review process—may be submitted here for community review. The purpose of an administrative review discussion is to reach a consensus on whether a specific action was appropriate, not to assign blame. It is not the place to request comment on an editor's general conduct, to seek retribution or removal of an editor's advanced permissions, or to quibble about technicalities.

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review of pblock

Action: Partial-block from article space of Simoooix.haddi for edit warring and disruptive editing to push a POV at various pages, most recently here, here, here.

User: Valereee (talk · contribs · logs)

I p-blocked this editor after various discussions, and I'm not actually sure I've got it right. The other editor in the dispute, M.Bitton, may be just as much at fault. I don't have any expertise in the subject, just wanted to see if this seemed reasonable. Just a reality check for me. Valereee (talk) 16:00, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I came to Wikipedia with the intention to contribute, and I acknowledge that I may make mistakes soemetimes. However, I do not believe that my last edits were disruptive. It would be beneficial to have editors with at least some basic knowledge about the subject to confirm this. Unlike M.Bitton (who was reverting my edits after following me of course), I have provided explanations for my last edits in the comments. SimoooIX (talk) 16:17, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Neither Algerian nor Ottoman victory is very illuminating for the reader here given the current state of the article. I am pretty sure that if you had spent some time improving the content, for instance at least linking to Oruç Reis there would not be such skepticism of your edits. I think you do have a minor point, but best if you were to first explain to the reader before just changing the info boxes. fiveby(zero) 17:24, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your response. While I acknowledge that "Ottoman" may not be entirely accurate, it was the best term I could come up with. Referring to it as an "Ottoman victory" is still way better than calling it an "Algerian victory," as the latter would be an anachronism. SimoooIX (talk) 17:32, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

The word Ottoman has no place in there for the simple reason that the Barbarossa brothers didn't seek the help of the Ottomans until after those dates (this is basic knowledge). M.Bitton (talk) 18:21, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

basically Barbarossa brothers were Ottoman corsairs before coming to modern-day Algeria. SimoooIX (talk) 18:28, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't mind teaching history, but this is not the place to do it. For now, things like you personally attacking me on your third ever edit (for no reason whatsoever) and insulting the Algerian president on fr.wp are more relevant. M.Bitton (talk) M.Bitton (talk) 18:31, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

You could have "teached" me history in your comments when you reverted my edits. SimoooIX (talk) 19:30, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

• Good p-block--without any opinion on which text is more correct, Simooix.haddi has edit warred across multiple articles and expressed clear intent at M.Bitton's talk page to continue edit warring (largely based on what appear to be honest misunderstanding of our edit warring policy), without adequately engaging in discussion at a relevant talk page. Simooix can now continue to seek a consensus by starting talk page discussions in the appropriate locations, with reference to RS. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:12, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  Sorry but did i "express clear intent at M.Bitton's talk page to continue edit warring"? I don't think so.

  I have reverted their edits since they didn't give any explanation for their revert in the comments. SimoooIX (talk) 17:25, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  This string of responses is what concerns me. Also, your participation here isn't really desired; Valereee is asking for input from other administrators and experienced editors--even if you fit that description, as the subject of the p-block you will have an obviously biased view of its propriety. You can request that the block be lifted by filing a normal unblock request at your talk page; although unless/until an uninvolved editor opines here that the block was inappropriate, you're not going to get very far making that assertion (a more successful unblock request would clarify how you intend to deal with editing disputes moving forward). _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:43, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  "This string of responses is what concerns me." i didn't mean that i wil continue edit-warring by that.

  "Also, your participation here isn't really desired;Valereee is asking for input from other administrators and experienced editors--even if you fit that description". Valereee sent me a link to this discussion. I think that's an invitation. SimoooIX (talk) 18:00, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  It was a courtesy notification, as we'd be discussing you. I'm really here because I want to hear what other experienced, well-intentioned editors think. I wish the two of you would stop relitigating your disputes. Valereee (talk) 19:46, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  Trust me that's what i wish too. I also hope if just M.Bitton's interactions would be less toxic than they already are.

  I admit that i have made a mistake in my third edit (which i apologized for already). but I'm not the only one who had issues with this editor. SimoooIX (talk) 20:07, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

What is p-block? Permanent block? Partial block? Practical block? Some of us are civilians, can't assume we are up on all the jargon.

Also, User:Rosguill, "Your participation here isn't really desired" is not how we work here. Sorry, but I skipped the rest of your post after that. I don't have time for engaging editors who write stuff like that. If you're going to write things like that you should learn to expect that I guess.

OK, so, I don't have time or interest to look over the whole thing, and there's no link for the various discussions, but just looking at Siege of Jijel, we have:

• User:Simoooix.haddi changes "Algerian" to "Ottoman. On the merits, I assume it's debatable -- The Algerian forces were operating under the nominal suzerainity of the Ottomans IIRC, so the bold edit is defensible. The edit summary is very poor and actually inflammatory: "Algerian victory in 1517? That doesn't make any sense". But it makes perfect sense. It might be wrong, but its not madness. Don't do that. Insulting edit summary = bad edit. I'd consider a rollback on that basis.
• So User:M.Bitton rolls back that edit, but doesn't say why. No edit summary. Is the rollback because Bitton doesn't agree with the content? Or the edit summary? or doesn't like Simooox personally? Or the Ottomans generally? Or just likes to revert stuff? Who knows? The proper edit summary would be "Reverted per WP:BRD, make your case on talk". But they didn't do that. Bad.
• Simoooix then should have not reverted the edit and instead opened a thread on talk page making their case. But instead he reverted again -- edit war now looming, particularly since their summary was "aren't you the warrior against anachronism?" which is about the editor not the edit. Bad. However, since Bitton left no edit summary, which is kind of dismissive. it's understandable that Simoooix would just revert. Wrong, but to a degree just being human.
• So the next step would be Bitton (or anyone) to re-revert, with an edit summary something like "Reverted again per WP:BRD, DO NOT EDIT WAR, instead make you case on the talk page" Optional extra work, but best, would be for Bitton (or someone) to open a thread on the talk page with content like "An editor is changing Ottoman to Algerian and is insisting, they are requested to make their case here". I generally do this. But nobody has done this yet.

So, I think what we have here is an opportunity for a learning experience. User:Valereee could have left messages on both editors' talk page teaching them how it should have been done. This is how the admin corps, the best of our best, helps editors to learn and grow. That is how the editor corps improves, and that's more important than the somewhat obscure issue at hand.

So really nobody was excellent here. I guess there's more expectation for an admin to be excellent, or try, tho. If Valereee didn't have the time to do this correctly, per WP:FAILSAFE they should have let it go, I guess. So, maybe a growing experience for all three participants.

And your second choice would have been to take the issue to ANI I think. If you're going to block somebody -- and per WP:HURTS every block risks permanently alienating the editor, or at least hurting their morale -- do that. Get other admins's eyes on it, an let the editor have a chance to explain themself. (And, finally... I gather this has spread over several articles, but that just makes it more compelling to educate the participants.) Herostratus (talk) 17:51, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Herostratus My suggestion to SimoolX was primarily so that they would avoid providing additional rope here to justify their hanging. If you'd read the rest of my comment, that would have been quite clear, as I gave them advice for how to go about requesting an unblock. There's also the irony that you apparently don't know what WP:P-block means and couldn't be bothered to look it up? _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:57, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I hope that "you apparently don't know what [first use of acronym, and not even linked] means and couldn't be bothered to look it up" isn't how you you think toward the reader when you write articles. I'd like the same courtesy. There's hella acronyms here. I get that "everybody knows what I do, or anyway should" is a common, if unconscious, human attitude. Fight it.

You gave three examples of bad behavior right off. I picked one. It wasn't bad behavior, or anyway egregious, or much worse than the other guy. There's a limit to how deep I can or will dig.

Asking for feeback on actions is admirable, and good on you. If the attitude is "wtf dude, I expect confirmation and flattery, not actual critisism'" (and I've seen this before), not so great. Don't snark at me for your failure to at least take this to ANI discussion before kicking an editor off the project -- and every block has an n-percent chance of that, where n is some non-zero numbers. If you don't know that you had better learn fast, I think. Herostratus (talk) 19:57, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Rosguill didn't take the action or open this discussion. I did those. Valereee (talk) 12:23, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

You might expect them to know what this discussion is about, but there's a limit to how deep they can or will dig. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:31, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, I did discuss/advise at both editors' talks here, here, here and here and an article talk, plus at another editor's user talk. I'm not sure where I gave the impression this was a lack-of-time issue, I've been editing all day. For me this is a 'was this the right move?' issue. Valereee (talk) 17:59, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your previous intervention on the ScotishFinishRadish talk page, where you were impartial and listened to both sides. However, I'm disappointed that you didn't follow the same approach this time. Instead of discussing the matter, you blocked me without warning and labeled my edits as 'disruptive'. SimoooIX (talk) 18:15, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

• I think some background information is needed here: 1) Simoooix.haddi personally attacked me for no reason whatsoever on their third edit. 2) Told me to "fuck off" in their edit summaries (twice[1][2] so far). 3) They have been blocked indefinitely on the fr.wp for replacing the name of the Algerian president with an insulting name. M.Bitton (talk) 18:21, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  Setting aside the current topic, it seems like you're trying to find ways to get rid of me. Anyway:

  1)- You have personally attacked me in this instance [3] and here [4].

  2)-The meaning of FO in my comments was not meant to be offensive. You selectively chose the worst interpretation and attributed it to me.

  3)-The block on the French wiki was unjust and i insulted nobody, and I don't have to discuss that. My primary focus has always been the English wiki. SimoooIX (talk) 18:45, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  What does FO mean?

  The block on fr.wp was more than justified. You can't insult the Algerian president or any other living person and get away with it. M.Bitton (talk) M.Bitton (talk) 18:47, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  False Opinion. SimoooIX (talk) 19:00, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  So your response to facts such as "stop adding original research" and "edit warring" is "false opinion" (when there is no question that you did both)? It's worse than Fuck off. M.Bitton (talk) 19:04, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not going to play this game with you. you asked about what i meant by FO and i answered you. That's it. SimoooIX (talk) 19:12, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  Now, let's return to our subject. I'm not going to discuss this anymore. SimoooIX (talk) 19:16, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

• Why did you set the p-block duration to indefinite, Valereee?—S Marshall T/C 20:40, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  SM, what I'd like to see is this editor listening to what people are telling them. An indef requires someone to listen rather than simply waiting something out. I have zero objection to anyone lifting the block once the editor starts listening instead of arguing. Valereee (talk) 20:52, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  Indeed. Time limited blocks do not ensure understanding. An indefinite block is not of infinite duration. It can be removed once understanding is understood. Sometimes sooner than a randomly determined time-limited block. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:01, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  I have experienced disagreements with other editors where I was in the wrong side. In those instances, when the other editor explained themselves in a civil and respectful manner, and pointed out my mistakes, I was convinced and expressed gratitude. However, unfortunately, that was never the case with M.Bitton. SimoooIX (talk) 21:29, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

• SM, I've made that clear at the user's talk, thanks. Valereee (talk) 21:02, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  (edit conflict)From what I've seen here, the partial block is still needed. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:03, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  Okay. I note that this editor is now talking. Profusely. I think there are two sides to this, and I'm not exactly overjoyed about M.Bitton's responses. We've got two editors who both display an awful lot of self-confidence and trust in their own judgment and knowledge.—S Marshall T/C 21:09, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  Yep. Which is exactly what I said in my OP and the reason I came here for input. Valereee (talk) 21:19, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

  Fair. I endorse the indefinite P-block from article space in the circumstances but feel some kind of further intervention is needed.—S Marshall T/C 21:32, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

• Seems to have subsided now? Suggest lifting the pblock for the time being. I wouldn't look for a mea culpa before unblocking in this case because WP:EHP and there was a degree of provocation. I do not think this pblock can be sustained for much longer when we haven't taken action on M.Bitton.—S Marshall T/C 23:27, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

  @S Marshall: What action and for what exactly? M.Bitton (talk) 23:41, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

  I've unblocked in response to a request, and I've also discussed going forward at the other editor's talk. Thanks for the input, all! Valereee (talk) 12:25, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Review of concerning block

Action: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?type=block&user=&page=user%3ABatreeq&wpdate=&tagfilter=&wpfilters%5B%5D=newusers&wpFormIdentifier=logeventslist

User: Courcelles (talk · contribs · logs)

• Initial discussion with another administrator. It was eventually ignored, which led to this whole fiasco (see full thread): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive466&oldid=prev&diff=1148793415&markasread=277757394&markasreadwiki=enwiki
• Follow-up with blocking administrator after being blocked (ignored): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Batreeq#Formal_warning_for_edit_warring
• Report that led to the block: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive466#User:Batreeq_reported_by_User:Leechjoel9_(Result:Both_blocked_24_hours_)

It seems I was blocked as a punishment. Per the first link above, I attempted a constructive discussion above and the other edit warrior abandoned the discussion (Talk:Asmara#Native_name_in_infobox). They reported me to 3RR once, but it was closed due to inactivity. I reported them citing their abandonment of the talk page discussion, and as noted above the thread was ignored by the initial administrator. Finally, they reported me again and Courcelles blocked both of us. Unacceptable. I have tried to clarify why only to be ignored. There is lack of accountability and the block appears to have wrongly been used as a punishment. Keep in mind that I never actually violated 3RR and was trying to keep a talkpage discussion going, so you can see why I see this block as unjust. I do have a fairly good track record on WP with this being my first block. Such aggressive measures have potential to drive people away, and I am reconsidering my involvement after this blatant abuse of authority! Driving people away is obviously not conducive to attracting people of diverse backgrounds across the world to enhance the world's largest encyclopedia. – Batreeq ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 03:56, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

• I think the block was excessive for an editor who had not yet been notified of CTOP procedures, but still a justifiable response to low-level edit warring at Asmara. Both Batreeq and Leechjoel were clearly aware of the ongoing dispute given the prior failure to resolve the issue on a talk page, and should have proceeded to organizing an RfC rather than resorting to edit warring. A short block by an uninvolved admin responding to a reasonable edit warring report with a clearly given explanation is not abuse. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 04:52, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

  So then what should have happened, from an objective standpoint, is both editors be referred to WP:RFC. I will admit that despite being on WP for a long time (though not a highly active editor), I am not familliar with all the rules, policies, processes, etc... (WP:CREEP) including RfC. It is therefore the duty of those granted administrator privileges to keep this in mind in these situations.

  While I don't think this was blatant abuse, an outright wasn't the right way of going about it nor the most appropriate use of the blocking tool (which I still take issue to because it appears to have been used to punish) especially considering the miniscule effect a 24 h block has on something that has been happening, spaced out over weeks to months, since 2021. – Batreeq ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 09:10, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

You do not need to have violated 3RR to be considered edit-warring. Curbon7 (talk) 05:14, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'm following the diffs perfectly, but Batreeq, it looks like you've reported people/been reported before for edit-warring? Valereee (talk) 13:01, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

If you were blocked, as you claim, as punishment, then one would think that the other user was also blocked for punishment. Two editors are warring over some content, two editors get blocked. Drmies (talk) 14:21, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

• Oh, this is new. I submit that Batreeq was aware enough of our policies on edit warring to [5] accuse another editor of violating them last year. Ironically, in this same dispute that has now entered a third year of reverting, between the same two editors! I was shocked to find that Bateeq was formally unaware of CTOP, while Leechjoel9 was. Given the equality of disruption, but the inequality of awareness, I chose to take the same action with both editors, a day block and a formal warning in the AE log against edit warring. And to assuage adminacct concerns, I responded to Bateeq on ANEW while reverting their attempts at threaded discussion on the AElog itself. Courcelles (talk) 14:54, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

A few thoughts:

• It was a slow motion edit war. The recent ones of those reported averaged weeks apart and all of the reported ones averaged months apart. In light of this a 24 hour block could not possibly be seen as directly preventative. However just giving someone a "whack" might be seen as preventative to stop the behavior although such a rationale is not "official". So "as punishment" is not the only alternate explanation to "clearly p[reventative"
• IMO Batreeq has been shown to be more wiki-saavy than they profess to be. However it's quite common for moderately experienced editors to not be fully aware of the minefield that WP:CTOP articles are. Also, it is plausible that they did not fully realize that a slow motion edit war is still a sanctionable edit war.
• It can be argued that a 24 hour block is not severe. Nevertheless, the more that somebody cares the more severe it is, so it would be a mistake to automatically consider a 24 hour block to be not severe.

IMO, both from a fairness and effectiveness standpoint there should have been a warning first. IMO Courcelles did what they thought was best but should have thought this through more thoroughly. Also, being close to an edge case makes it not indicative of an admin problem, just a review of this action. That said, making the same edit ~10 times over ~2 years was a behavior that needed to be stopped. North8000 (talk) 15:55, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

• Looks like a reasonable block. Slow motion edit warring is still edit warring, and the fact 3RR wasn't breached doesn't mean nobody can be blocked. Neither party has engaged in any talk page discussion about this in the last year, and if someone else isn't engaging then there are other ways to resolve a dispute other than edit warring. Normally I'd expect some sort of warning to make sure the editor is familiar with policies on edit warring, but Batreeq has given such a warning to the other editor and reported them to an edit warring noticeboard, so that isn't necessary here. Blocks can be used to "deter the continuation of present, disruptive behavior" according to the blocking policy, it's clear the edit warring was going to continue. Hut 8.5 18:36, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
• So where do we go from here? In regards to settling the dispute with the article, since that editor refuses to engage on the talk page. – Batreeq ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 21:55, 14 April 2023 (UTC)