Wikipedia:Administrative action review

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by ToBeFree (talk | contribs) at 22:48, 7 April 2024 (→‎Undue 48-Hour Block by Bbb23: grammar/logic). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Administrative action review (XRV/AARV) determines whether use of the administrator tools or other advanced permissions is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Any action (or set of related actions) involving a tool not available to all confirmed editors—except those covered by another, more specific review process—may be submitted here for community review. The purpose of an administrative review discussion is to reach a consensus on whether a specific action was appropriate, not to assign blame. It is not the place to request comment on an editor's general conduct, to seek retribution or removal of an editor's advanced permissions, or to quibble about technicalities.

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Undue 7 day block by ScottishFinnishRadish against Thinker78

The block is very clearly endorsed, albeit with some dissent around the length (but not enough discussion to say there was a firm consensus it was or was not inappropriately long). This board cannot do more than endorse or not endorse, so any further discussion of further blocks or other sanctions should take place at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Thinker78's forum shopping and IDHT. Thryduulf (talk) 15:47, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Action: February 2024 block; diff 1
User: ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · logs) ([[diff 2 I didn't make more objections as I did because I was planning to appeal with relevant points. I made two appeals, took into account more community input in the drafting of the second one: appeal 1, appeal 2; Declined arbitration case, where some arbitrators pointed to instead using alternate dispute resolution before reaching them.|prior discussion]])

Misusing administrative tools. Not assuming good faith. Disregard of the consensus process and collegiality, disregarding my experience and treating me like a random anonymous vandal. Disregard of policies backing my edits. I did not do forum shopping. Before publicizing the discussion in other talk pages, I consulted the content dispute policy and the canvassing policy to see if I could publicize, in order to get more uninvolved input in the discussion. I heeded the warning of admin Johnuniq, I did not fail to listen, I did not further revert, but did complain. All concerns they had about my revert could have been discussed before any warning and blocks were issued. Thinker78 (talk) 22:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is it really necessary to drag ScottishFinnishRadish through a second colonoscopy this week? Looking at your edits and recent comments, it's clear that you still don't get why your actions were wrong or even that they were wrong despite many people having told you so. Following policies to the letter while ignoring the spirit of them will end badly, such as this case did. I really don't think there's anything that should be done here since your actions leading up to the block as well as during the block declines were indeed disruptive. You posted requests asking for comments in a discussion where such a request was not appropriate; policy pages shouldn't have requests for comment in individual behavior issues. You then proceeded to wiki-lawyer the admins considering the block requests, utilizing walls of text, instead of reflecting on where you might have gone wrong. The way I see it, the block and revocation of TPA served to prevent additional disruption via restoration of IP troll comments and waste of the community's time. Noah, AATalk 23:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To make it clear, I Endorse the original block. Noah, AATalk 14:04, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I continue to be very busy, so if there is anything specific someone needs, please ping me. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Boomerang [With my individual editor hat on, not my Arb or Admin hat] This saga has revealed that Thinker is immune to feedback, obsessed with being proven right, and generally a bad fit for the project. Take Special:Diff/1216237366, where after Acroterion provided some constructive criticism of Thinker's approach, Thinker entirely disregarded Acroterion's point and left a borderline harassing message on their talk. My first encounter with Thinker also reflected their inability to take feedback: Special:Diff/1176975053 (failing to understand why saying "Good one. Lol." might be seen as aggressive and inappropriate). Combined with their crusade to be proven right about a short block, Thinker is wasting considerable editor time and needs to either get that they were in the wrong, or get out. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 00:33, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @CaptainEek with all due respect, can you focus on the issue at hand, which is the block by ScottishFinnishRadish? I mean, if you have further issues with me, you can always open an ANI process. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 00:36, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Thinker78 With regards to the underlying block, you restored this obvious troll comment. You then didn't understand why it was an obvious troll comment. You then canvassed the resulting discussion in some of the weirdest places I can think of. You refused to WP:DROPTHESTICK after half a dozen people told you were wrong, and so you got blocked. It was a good block. You may well have been acting in good faith, but that isn't enough. You also need to have done a good job. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 00:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    With regards to the underlying block, you restored this obvious troll comment. You then didn't understand why it was an obvious troll comment. It is not that I did not understand, I simply had a different opinion. In fact I had researched the meaning of racist in the context the ip used, and I found out that it is commonly used in social media as a euphemism of "wrong". As a translator, I have actual training in elucidating what people mean. Also, I have college training in Logic. Therefore, while most editors probably remove ip comments out of an immediate impulse, I instead try to focus on what the ip actually tries to say.
    As I indicated in the ArbCom case, I can take an hour analyzing an ip post before deciding to revert and most times I do not revert. Most people just drive by remove such comments, without any analysis whatsoever. I am not expecting others to spend so much time on ips, but rather I would have expected collegial discussions and respect for my analytical efforts and the consensus process. But instead, in the current case it devolved in false accusations, unwarranted threats, finger-pointing, and the block. I have to point out that out of more than 20,000 edits I have made, I have only restored around 16 ips in 8 years in such a fashion, and I would expect that most of those can withstand objective analysis in a case by case basis. Thinker78 (talk) 02:36, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The only thing wrong with this block was its length. If that wasn't clear before, it is now. —Cryptic 00:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I just like it or I just don't like it don't provide clarity and should be avoided, according to the consensus policy. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 00:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have contemplated on more than one occasion in the past week, blocking Thinker78 indefinitely for the behaviour CaptainEek so accurately describes. Ultimately my relative inactivity due to travel is probably the main reason why I haven't done so (I actively read Wikipedia when I travel but struggle to get the laptop out and edit as much) — hit and run blocks have never been my style. I support an indefinite block as a boomerang here, this editor's approach to dispute resolution management and self-reflection (or lack thereof) is in my opinion incompatible with our project, and they have had plenty of opportunities to adjust the way they go about things (and plenty of encouragement from experienced editors on how to do so) but have ultimately chosen not to. Daniel (talk) 01:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In the same way of thinking, since this is a clear WP:IDHT case along with other disruptive behavior, I would also support an indefinite block of Thinker78. It's clear they aren't going to understand and have no intention of correcting the issues so described. We can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink. Noah, AATalk 01:21, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Note this venue is only for reviewing administrative actions, without considering sanctions. isaacl (talk) 01:27, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, take this as an endorse original block and a statement that the block wasn't long enough in that case. Any of my peers may wish to consider extending it based on the general sentiment expressed here, even if this venue cannot be used to develop a consensus to block. Daniel (talk) 01:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This post, and nearly every post that Thinker78 has made to a variety of noticeboards and user talkpages since that revert of a troll's nonsense weeks ago, is more self-defeating pursuit of vindication. The term "quixotic" has been overused, but this vindication-at-all-costs campaign is an excellent example of a hopeless quest for an imagined heroic justification, using as many words as possible in response to what started out as the slightest of disagreements, and which will be provided by some special set of words. This is evidenced by their notion that another 500 words at the arbitration request noticeboard will somehow prevail. A windmill isn't a giant. Acroterion (talk) 01:20, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • To bring a case here one one should, besides the specific allegation, make a summary / making of of their case and the situation as they see it. I don't see that here. I just see a bunch of links and a bunch of "drive by" allegations and other comments. North8000 (talk) 01:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I was under pressure to be brief as I have been corralled in not writing too much in my explanations. So I tried to be brief and I was afraid I was not even brief enough. In my second appeal I tried to summarize and provide the point by point details. But that was reason enough to be blocked from my talk page "For wikilawyering and timewasting unblock requests following on wikilawyering and timewasting talkpage editing, your talkpage access has been revoked." Thinker78 (talk) 02:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If you have valid point, you are your own worst enemy by failing to make any coherent and succinct complaint, explanation and argument and what specifically you want as a resolution. I looked at your Arbcom request and it had the same problem. The way that you post is based on the assumption that either everybody already knows the whole story or they are going to spend 3 hours trying to learn it and figure what it is about. Under the first group you are going to get the same folks that are already involved, and under the second group you are going to get nobody. North8000 (talk) 03:10, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse original block per all of the above. I sincerely think the editor shows extremely poor judgement by filing here and multiple other places. At the very least it is a refusal to understand the reasoning for the block. Philipnelson99 (talk) 01:56, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • First of all, let's not suggest boomerangs here. This board is for feedback without sanctions coming into play. The boomerang on this board is just endorsement of the reported action; we shouldn't set a precedent otherwise if we can. I am not familiar with Thinker78 but I assume they're a valuable contributor, that being the default assumption. So, let's just help them move on. How about admins who're already involved, or maybe even non-admins who've already made their positions known elsewhere refrain from commenting here, or refrain from saying anything more than whether or not they endorse it? If no uninvolved editors comment or they comment against Thinker's position, they can (hopefully) realise that their position is just not shared or shared by the part of the community that participates in the project space. You should have sought clarification from the community on talk page guidelines instead of doing this, Thinker. But it may be already be too late as it may now look like just more forumshopping
    Half or a majority of the arbs that answered your arbitration request already said the block may have been heavy-handed. I do not think it's realistic to expect to get more that that. Looking at just the talk page, I had thought the block came too soon. But at the arbitration request, editors said that you'd been doing it for a long time. What you've been doing could be, for some, something easily ignored, for others, it could be annoying, for still others, especially those who work on controversial areas where the volume of driveby unhelpful comments is high, it may look downright disruptive. If the blocking admin is in the last camp and, especially, was aware that this was going on for long, the block would be very reasonable at that point. Regardless, you may get people to agree it was heavy-handed, you won't get enough people to say it was wrong to vindicate yourself or make any tangible difference.
    A third point, Thinker, is that just by looking at your userpage, I get the impression that you take things too far trying to make points whatever they are. I met a 12-year-old girl on Wikipedia this week. Wikipedia is not censored, but our article on Human penis is never proactively going to interact with that girl or other minors who are trying out editing here, whereas you might. At that point, the child may check your userpage. Adults may be able to handle it knowing the point you're trying to make, but it's still utterly inappropriate to show your colleagues penis pics when they come to visit you. I am thinking you must have failed completely to consider all that. Please edit your userpage. Usedtobecool ☎️ 02:11, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse original block as necessary to stave off further disruption that the blocking admin correctly divined as likely, given their experience of Thinker78. Support indefinite block boomerang: surely, from just perusing this user's contributions in the last few days, anyone will see why. The dick pic just seals the deal, so far as I am concerned. Bon courage (talk) 02:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Placing dick pics anywhere but in articles concerning penises is invariably grounds for an immediate indefinite block, no matter how long it is before somebody notices, the more so when it's a tone-deaf and weirdly un-self-aware allusion to "don't be a dick." I think the discussion needs to go over to ANI for community action. There is a fundamental incompatibility with the community, manifested by boundary-pushing, a lack of self-reflection, and a objectivist conviction of their own destiny. This discussion has run its course and brought the issues into better focus. I say ANI, because T78's fundamental mistake is to place themself above the community, which has given them more than enough feedback, so the point should be made by the community. I don't have time today to do it myself. Acroterion (talk) 12:34, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse the original block. If someone were to open an ANI and suggest a block of T78—or just unilaterally blocked him—I'd support it. He restored a troll comment, got into a dispute over it, escalated it far beyond reason, posted inappropriately at a bunch of barely related project-space pages, and has generally been unwilling to entertain any criticism. This is part of a pattern of misconduct that has wasted a lot of valuable community time. A temporary block has not been sufficient in deterring such misconduct, so something lengthy or indefinite would be appropriate. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Look, in Guatemala the government used to kill people for saying things it did not like. In fact, my mother had to throw away al the family books for fear of us getting killed. So I am very sensitive to undue censorship. I have a reasonable and logical case why I restored the ip comment. But instead of collegially hearing me out there is a mob here to take me out.
    I am a deeply objective, methodical and analytical person. I am convinced by logical arguments, which can actually change my position and recognize the validity of what the other person is saying. My talk page can show that. But arbitrary finger pointing, threats, and retrbutions is more reminiscent to me of the persecutions the military governments in Guatemala did. Not really the environment for me.
    So if you guys want to kick me out from Wikipedia just because, instead of having made any proper effort to collegially hear me out why I think restoring the ip comment was proper in the first place, without hollering and finger pointing, I say the system is corrupted and broken. Anyway, I am satisfied with my work for more than 20 years here, mostly active in the last 8, I think I have served society well with the edits I have made and if my time in Wikipedia has come to an end, so be it. Thinker78 (talk) 03:08, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I criticized you, and now I'm being compared to a murderous military autocracy. This is bizarre. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:12, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Speechless. Daniel (talk) 05:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Jfc... Noah, AATalk 14:03, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse, or ban them from WP:* space, or a 0RR restriction on talk pages. Something. Good gravy, this is like watching someone at the bottom of a hole looking around for a shovel upgrade so they can dig faster. They have made a fundamentally wrong call on handling disruptive users and talk page comments, and just will not let it go. Zaathras (talk) 04:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The block was for disruptive editing, and I agree that Thinker78's talk page misuse, which included restoring wildly inappropriate content, rose to the level of "disruptive editing". What I don't understand is why the first block of a never-previously-blocked user was for 7 days. I would have suggested 24 or 48 hours per WP:BLOCKDURATION. Personally I've been the victim of three blocks, two of which were full-on sysop stupidity and one of which was a "reciprocal" block, whatever that might be, from the user talk page of someone I reported for harassing me. So I really do know how frustrating it is. I'd say to Thinker78 that an effective contest to a block is succinct. We're encyclopaedists. Our task is to summarize: to say everything that needs saying about a topic in very few words. Editors need to be good at it to edit in the mainspace. Use that skill to its fullest in unblock requests. Wikipedians get very accustomed to long unblock requests, and so few of them are worth reading that Wikipedians don't read them (as you can see from the responses here).—S Marshall T/C 08:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The reason I went with a week rather than 24 to 48 hours was to spur some self reflection and hopefully get an unblock request that demonstrates an understanding of why their editing was disruptive and an assurance that such disruption will not continue. After disruption over a long period and warnings from and discussion with multiple other editors I figured that would be the best way to handle it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, I can follow that logic. I'm just struck by the fact that even a full-on vandal at {{uw-vandalism4}} would usually get a 24-48 hour block to start with.—S Marshall T/C 12:36, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The common practice in that situation is an indef vandalism-only-account block. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:13, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse as a reasonable effort to implement prevention in this case. It even did work somewhat as the editor is not restoring unwanted talk page content, as far as I can see. But maybe that's because they're too busy with proving that they shouldn't have been blocked. No comment on boomerang however in this forum.—Alalch E. 10:13, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • wth I'm not sure what is going on in Thinker78's head with this. What is on this page is starting to make me question their competency; not in writing or copy editing articles (I have no opinion there) but in working with others. I can't help but feel his world view is so distorted that there isn't any hope he can understand consensus, let alone comply with it. A brief look at the block says it was within admin discretion and in the realm of "reasonable". I'm not sure what is going on with Thinker, but everything he has done over the last couple of weeks is consistent with a path towards getting an indef block, and the fact that he doesn't understand this is what I base my WP:CIR claim here. Then he jumps the shark and compares admins to Guatemalan death squads. This is not something a rational mind does. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:09, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just saw the whole African penis thing referred to above, and other indications on their talk page. This board isn't set up to dole out sanctions, but that doesn't stop an admin from unilaterally doing so. If any admin decides that CIR has become a concern that prevents Thinker from being able to participate, and decides to indef block, I'm going to support it. I'm not going to guess WHY Thinker has gone off the deep end, but right now, they are, and I don't think they need to be editing here for a long while. For their sake and ours. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:15, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since some people above are suggesting that Thinker's recent conduct ought to be at ANI, I'll just mention that it's there now. Bishonen | tålk 13:25, 2 April 2024 (UTC).[reply]
  • Endorse, and per CaptainEek's recommendation of a boomerang for Thinker78, who is basically just trolling by now. They are clearly deaf to advice on their own behavior. ——Serial Number 54129 13:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good block, good talk page access removal. When there is a conflict between two competing goals (lack of censorship vs. discouraging trolling), we have to weigh the benefits and costs of each as a community. The consensus is against Thinker78, and there is really widespread agreement that the block and talk page access removal were reasonable. Thinker78 needs to decide whether they can participate in a community that weights these things differently than Thinker78 does. I'd suggest boomerangs are not needed now, just wait to see if Thinker78 changes, leaves, or needs to be blocked for disruption going forward. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse block, declines of unblock, and talk page removal. It is apparent to me that OP does not understand that the behavior that led to the block was blockable and should not be repeated.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 15:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Undue 48-Hour Block by Bbb23

Action: 48-Hour Ban of MiztuhX
User: Bbb23 (talk · contribs · logs) (Editor did not respond to comments by ~ ToBeFree (talk), SnowRise let's rap and myself.)

I am asking that my block be reviewed because there was a discrepancy in the timing of our respective replies. I was writing a reply to Trailblazer101 when Bbb23 was posting his original decision. When I posted the reply, I was able to read the decision that I was close to being banned. I logged out. It was only a few hours later when I logged back in that I became aware of the second decision that my account was banned, which I believe Bbb23 mistook as a challenge to his original decision. In closing, I did not reply to challenge or provoke Bbb23's decision; my reply was directed as a reply to Trailblazer101, but the timing of our respective posts prevented my awareness of Bbb23's decision, otherwise I would not have replied. Another editor ~ToBeFree l opined: "I find your explanation convincing: You didn't see the final warning." O replied: "Since the original decision was a warning and it has been recognized that an edit conflict was the cause of the discrepancy, then the original decision of a warning should be honored in the name of fairness and accuracy. Issuing a block retroactively has no justification if the original administrator already determined that a warning was sufficient. This only leads to conflicting claims between the two administrators and confusion with regards to WP rules since they appear to not be applied equitably." I contacted Bbb23 for his review under WP:TOOLMISUSE. Editor SnowRose also commented. I request that the 48-hour ban be lifted also stricken from my record. I will notify Bbb23 (talk) on his talk page MiztuhX (talk) 21:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • I don't really have much to say. I agreed with ToBeFree's comments about the block and his action amending the block log. Unfortunately, instead of taking TBF's advice, MiztuhX came here.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The original response was a warning. Bbb23 changed it to a 48-hour block justifying it due to my my reply to another editor which he mistook as a challenge to his authority and subsequentchanging of a warning to a 48-hour ban that was not fair and retroactive due to edit conflict based on timing of responses and not a direct challenge. I ask for ban to be lifted and stricken from my record because it was not justified in the original review by Bbb23.. MiztuhX (talk) 21:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse we don't strike block logs from people's records as a rule, and even if we did ex-post-facto analsyis of the sort ToBeFree did (and I agree with) would not be anywhere near sufficient. Given the comment I almost pblocked you now from editing the article and the Talk page because of your behavior it's clear that while you may have drawn a shorter that usual last straw due to timing I can't call the block so wrong it needs to be overturned. * Pppery * it has begun... 21:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Under [[WP: TOOLMISUSE]] Bbb23's initial assessment was under :Common situations where avoiding tool use is often required:
    • Communal norms or policies – When a policy or communal norm is clear that tools should not be used, then tools should not be used without an explanation that shows the matter has been considered, and why a (rare) exception is genuinely considered reasonable.
    The (rare) exception in this case was to issue a warning, arrived at by the original Administrator.
    Furthermore,
    • Reversing the actions of other administrators – Only in a manner that respects the admin whose action is involved, and (usually) after consultation.
    Other administratos are not empowered by WP policy to reverse the original administrator's (Bbb 23) decision to issue a warning, If Bbb23 changed his original decision based on a clear error (as evidenced by ToBeFree's assessment) then any other editor who also endorses the 48-hour ban is also violating that a "rare exception is genuinely considered reasonable" clause as noted above. Finally, Snowflake's comment: "I'm sure it would mean something to them to see it noted in the block log that the block was lifted because it wasn't found absolutely necessary at this juncture" lends credence that Bbb23's original decision of a warning was the correct one. MiztuhX (talk) 22:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hello MiztuhX, the section above hasn't been archived yet but seems to be similar enough to point this out (courtesy ping Thinker78). In a nutshell, I see (again) a lot of arguing about policy wording et cetera to complain about a short block for disruptive behavior. This is quickly becoming disruptive by itself, and the time could be better spent doing the things described at the Task Center and the community portal. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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