Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 13: Difference between revisions

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
→‎Expatriates A-G: Note to closer
Line 128: Line 128:
:*:::::::::It's blindingly obvious that you are pontificating away with great certainty about how to do a task which you have never actually done. [[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="font-variant:small-caps"><span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl</span>]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 02:13, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
:*:::::::::It's blindingly obvious that you are pontificating away with great certainty about how to do a task which you have never actually done. [[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="font-variant:small-caps"><span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl</span>]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 02:13, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
:*:::Yeah, agreed with Nederlandse Leeuw. I'm currently working on the philosopher categories, and having all of, e.g. [[:Category:Epistemologists]] populated makes it much easier to determine which subcategories can be made that partition the set and find the articles that belong in them. I understand not letting the best be the enemy of the good, I just don't think a category that's mostly unpopulated *is* good. I'd rather never have X emigrants to y country be created at all than have it only contain 4% of the eligible articles. [[User:Carchasm|&#32;- car chasm]] ([[User talk:Carchasm|talk]]) 17:42, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
:*:::Yeah, agreed with Nederlandse Leeuw. I'm currently working on the philosopher categories, and having all of, e.g. [[:Category:Epistemologists]] populated makes it much easier to determine which subcategories can be made that partition the set and find the articles that belong in them. I understand not letting the best be the enemy of the good, I just don't think a category that's mostly unpopulated *is* good. I'd rather never have X emigrants to y country be created at all than have it only contain 4% of the eligible articles. [[User:Carchasm|&#32;- car chasm]] ([[User talk:Carchasm|talk]]) 17:42, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
*'''Note to closer'''. This nomiation is deeply flawed:
:#It has no [[WP:BEFORE]]
:#it ignores the guideline [[WP:SMALLCAT]]'s restriction to categories with "no potential for growth", without indication of any assessment of such potential
:# #it ignores the guideline [[WP:SMALLCAT]]'s exception for categories whch are part of an established series, as these are.
:So if this is closed as "merge", I will take it to [[WP:DRV]]. Please can you therefore hold off implementing any close to allow the DRV to happen first. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="font-variant:small-caps"><span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl</span>]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 02:23, 15 June 2023 (UTC)


==== Category:Russian-speaking countries and territories ====
==== Category:Russian-speaking countries and territories ====

Revision as of 02:23, 15 June 2023

< June 12
June 14 >

June 13

Category:Saggart

Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. 14 years after its creation, this contains only the head article Saggart and three others.
Saggart is rapidly-growing suburb of Dublin but until a few decades ago it was just a wee village without a very significant history. There is little prospect of expansion for a area which is mostly new-build housing estates. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:45, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - the only growth likely is in people, who would sit in a sub-cat.; per other area-related-category discussions here, this can be handled without the "bracket" category. SeoR (talk) 00:17, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Priorswood

Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. Contains only the head article Priorswood and one other. Priorswood is a tiny part of the Dublin suburb of Coolock, and there is no prospect of expansion BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:32, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Query - I would not go so far as to say "no prospect" but as with Saggart, the potential is limited, and comprises three main strands - history, amenities and notable people. The reason I hesitate is that Coolock is a very large area (pop. >50,000, far more than most Irish towns) with a long history, and I think there might be benefit is having sub-cats for areas like Priorswood and Darndale, which are not so small population-wise, and do have identities of their own, and 1-2 historic buildings and a park each, for example, which have or might have articles. This is a case where structure might be beneficial. But perhaps this is something which could be come back to later, when more articles of relevance exist. SeoR (talk) 00:22, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Education schools in Ireland

Propose renaming:
Nominator's rationale: to reflect Irish usage. The term "Education school" is not used in Ireland. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:25, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I support the idea of a change - but I would say that the most common Irish usage is the slightly longer "Teacher training college" - I am from a family with teachers and have never heard "Teachers colleges" (or "Teacher colleges", etc.) used. Or... the modern usage is "Colleges of education". SeoR (talk) 00:28, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@SeoR: "Colleges of education" is not a helpful term. Surely all colleges are "Colleges of education"?
"Teacher training colleges" is much clearer, and as @Oculi notes it's the term used for the UK categories, so that avoids a clash of terms in Northern Ireland.
Thanks to you both: I will amend the nom. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:06, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Tram transport in Ireland before partition

Nominator's rationale: There is no wider scheme of pre-partition of Ireland categories and no benefit in creating one. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:14, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but... - I think we can't say "no benefit in creating one" so categorically (pun not intended), as in fact it might some day be useful - but for now, I support the merge. SeoR (talk) 00:29, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Dublin Wheelers

Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. Contains only the head article Dublin Wheelers and one subcat. No prospect of expansion. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:09, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - serves only to "bracket" people with club, no other articles very likely (some day, perhaps a list article or two, or a competition article, but no sign yet), so for now, sayonara... SeoR (talk) 00:31, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Raheny GAA

Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. Contains only the head article Raheny GAA and one subcat. No prospect of expansion. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:07, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No issue - bracketed the club and players, indeed unlikely to contain anything else. SeoR (talk) 00:15, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Ballygall

Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. This was a strange hybrid category, a mix of people and places. I moved the people to a new subcat Category:People from Ballygall which leaves only 2 articles. Ballygall is a small district, so there is little room for growth. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:57, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - it was a small cat., and really just bracketed people and the place, which is not even a full distinct district / suburb, so the cat. can be dispensed with without much issue. SeoR (talk) 00:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Television series by Uncharted

Nominator's rationale: I'm unclear on what the correct disambiguation for this should be. The article says that it is a production label. Gonnym (talk) 19:43, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Manu Gavassi

Nominator's rationale: With only subcategories for articles on albums and songs which already interlink with each other, this is another unnecessary eponymous parent. WP:OCEPON. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 18:24, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:European civilizations

Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 April 25#Category:Post-classical civilizations. This category was overlooked (by me) in the last round of discussions on civilizations categories created by Maxaxax in late 2022. Rationale remains the same. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:11, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Turkish-speaking countries and territories

Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:55, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, Turkish is only an official language in a few municipalities in Kosovo. Should Kosovo be kept here? Marcocapelle (talk) 17:20, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Good point, I had forgotten about that. I think it's better to remove Kosovo but include only those specific municipalities, because Turkish is not co-official in Kosovo as a whole. This June 2008 OSCE/UNMIK report on the Implementation of the Law on the Use of Languages by Kosovo Municipalities states on page 4: Pursuant to the Law the Turkish language is now official in Prizren. In 2007 and 2008, Gjilan/Gnjilane, Mitrovicë/Mitrovica, Prishtinë/Priština, and Vushtrri/Vučitrn recognized Turkish as a language in official use. The same 5 municipalities/districts (Prizren is a district containing several municipalities such as Mamusha) are highlighted in Turks in Kosovo (although it is not clearly said that Turkish is co-official there in this article). So, swapping Kosovo for these 5 items seems like the right move to make. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:19, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Expatriates A-G

Full list of around 310 categories
This is the full list of categories nominated at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 13#Expatriates A-G
  • I would not consider this a large scheme, e.g. Category:Afghan emigrants has only 21 subcategories, out of potentially over 200 recipient countries. And Category:Immigrants to Iraq only has four. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:38, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah @Marcocapelle, that's disingenuous. Emigrants from Foo to Bar is a huge scheme. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:00, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am serious about it. "Large" is ambiguously phrased, what really matters is if editors may reasonably expect that every possible subcategory exists. If that is the case it would of course be silly to upmerge incidental small categories, otherwise not. Marcocapelle (talk) 03:43, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Marcocapelle has a valid point. We should WP:WTAF before creating Category:Liechtenstein emigrants to Uzbekistan under the assumption (WP:CRYSTAL?) that it will one day contain at least 3 members. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:34, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Nederlandse Leeuw your example doesn't exist, and it's silly to take a microstate as an example.
    When I worked a few years ago on categorising expats an emigrants I was surprised by the number of permutation which did get a reasonable number of articles.
    More importantly, nobody is going to go systematically through each of the 200+ "Emigrants from Foo" categories" and tabulate them by destination country. That would take many thousands of hours of work and I bet that the nominator has not done so before nominating these categories. So the only way to categorise these migrations is to create the cats as the need arises even if they are initially small. WP:DEMOLISH applies here. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:56, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    your example doesn't exist, and it's silly to take a microstate as an example. I know; I'm using it to make a point. There is 'potential for growth', but not very big potential. If we replace 'Liechtenstein' with 'Belgian', for instance, it is still unlikely to get at least 3 items in the coming decades. It shouldn't take 50 years to build a house (and Wikipedia has already existed for 22 years). WP:DEMOLISH warns against this: If you are going to build a house, by all means, build away! But please do not build houses that are fundamentally unsuitable for human habitation and that will leak year round and whose stairs will collapse. Before you start building a hundred houses, learn how to build one house well. So, if you write three articles about Belgians who have emigrated to Uzbekistan, you've instantly proven that this is a useful category to create. That's why I prefer WP:WTAF over WP:DEMOLISH, but the warning of DEMOLISH aligns with the "spirit" of WTAF. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:23, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Some of these categories are being emptied. Liz Read! Talk! 01:19, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per nom. The value of these categories if incomplete is dubious and as has been observed, actually populating them would take many thousands of hours. They should be kept in the respective parent categories and only created when a more reasonable number are already in the parent. - car chasm (talk) 03:50, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well said. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:38, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Carchasm & @Nederlandse Leeuw: you both write as if you have never actually done the work of populating such categories, and are advocating an idealised process which won't work in practise.
    There are basically two possible approaches when you find an article on an emigrant from Foo to Bar:
    1. add the page to Category:Fooian emigrants to Bar. If the category doesn't exist, then create it
    2. add the page to Category:Fooian emigrants and add the page to Category:Immigrants to Bar.
    The first approach, which I favour, ensures that neither of the parent categries grows too big, because the articles are subcatted by a quick and easy distributed process.
    The second approach, which you two seem to advocate, means that the creation of a subcat requires an editor to first review dozens or even hundreds of articles in Category:Fooian emigrants and Category:Immigrants to Bar to try to find four other articles to populate a Category:Fooian emigrants to Bar.
    Beacuse the subcats have not been created on the go, both Category:Fooian emigrants and Category:Immigrants to Bar will be large. That makes it a huge job to scan each of them to populate possible subcats, and we simply do not have that many skilled category editors willing to put in the huge amounts of time required to do this routinely for 200+ countries.
    This is letting the best be the enemy of the good. It's well-intended, but in reality it's not gonna happen. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:56, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, the first approach assumes that once we've found 1 Belgian emigrant to Uzbekistan, we should immediately create Category:Belgian emigrants to Uzbekistan, and keep it languishing for decades with just 1 item – assuming other people will do the populating work for us to fill it up with at least 2 other items to meet the WP:SMALLCAT requirement – just because there is some tiny theoretical 'potential for growth'. It's well-intended, but in reality it's not gonna happen. And Wikipedia:Write the article first, Wikipedia:Don't demolish the house while it's still being built#Word of warning, and Wikipedia:An unfinished house is a real problem reject such an approach. I don't know if there is a rule or essay about 'not assuming other people will do our work for us', but I would also invoke it here if it existed. Edit: found it: Wikipedia:Don't hope the house will build itself: Like building construction, there are important rules to follow. And, also like building construction, you can't expect the inspectors to fix things for you, or to close their eyes and hope the problem will fix itself someday. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:27, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Nederlandse Leeuw: you don't seem to be hearing me. As above, either we build the subcats as soon as there is a article to populate them, or they don't get built ... 'cos it is v unlikely that anyone will put in the huge amount of time needed to gather sets of 5 articles out of long lists. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:59, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh I hear you, I just don't agree with you because of the policies, guidelines and essays mentioned. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:11, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I create new categories with at least 5 items all the time. It's not rocket science (unless we're talking about Category:Rocket scientists or something). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, the guideline WP:SMALLCAT supports my view: "part of an established series". Also "no potential for growth", and for none of the >300 nominated categories has anyone offered any evidence at all about growth potential. Nada, nothing.
    It's a pity that some editors want to ignore the guidelines and in your case to illustrate your point with non-existent categories. I hope that the closer will do their WP:NOTAVOTE job and discard all the !votes which flagrantly ignore the guidelines.
    And of course it's not rocket science. It's just a huge amount of work to find sets of 5 when there are >200 possible subcats.
    That means that in exremis it would be possible for a Category:Emigrants from Foo to contain nearly 1000 articles without any of them reaching the minimum threshold to create a subcat. That's why these emigrant categories are an odd case, because it's v rare to have so many possible permutations. If you or the other deletionists here had actually tried subcatting emigrant expat categories, you'd be aware of the difficulties. This is a radically different situation to case where there are a few dozen potential subcats. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:00, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    for none of the >300 nominated categories has anyone offered any evidence at all about growth potential. The burden of evidence for growth potential was on whoever created those nearly-unpopulated categories in the first place.
    illustrate your point with non-existent categories. Those are thought experiments to make my case; what's wrong with that? You use non-existent category Category:Fooian emigrants to Bar yourself, I don't see the problem.
    flagrantly ignore the guidelines. Indeed, the guidelines should not be ignored, just like the "Word of warning" section should not be ignored when WP:DEMOLISH is invoked.
    it would be possible for a Category:Emigrants from Foo to contain nearly 1000 articles without any of them reaching the minimum threshold to create a subcat. That's well-reasoned, but in reality it's not gonna happen.
    It's just a huge amount of work to find sets of 5 when there are >200 possible subcats. I don't know how you look for subcats to put items in, but if I wanted to put Henk in Category:Fooian emigrants to Bar, I would put "category:Emigrants by" in the search bar, find Category:Emigrants by nationality, click on the Category:Fooian emigrants subcat and see if it has a Category:Fooian emigrants to Bar subsubcat. That takes me fewer than 20 seconds. If it doesn't, I can always try and see if there are at least 5 "to Bar" items in the Category:Fooian emigrants subcat to create that subsubcat myself. That can be done manually, or by searching for a combination of "Fooian emigrants" + "Bar" in the search bar. I might even do an external search with Google to find the exact word combination in site:en.wikipedia.org. That shouldn't take more than 10 minutes. I don't know what the relevance is of ">200 possible subcats" existing when I'm looking for a very specific combination of "to Bar" in an existing category of "Fooian emigrants". Am I missing something? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:57, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Utter nonsense. See WP:BEFORE: The burden is on the nominator.
    Your search fails, because the article may not state the country: it may name the city or county or region or state.
    It's blindingly obvious that you are pontificating away with great certainty about how to do a task which you have never actually done. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:13, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, agreed with Nederlandse Leeuw. I'm currently working on the philosopher categories, and having all of, e.g. Category:Epistemologists populated makes it much easier to determine which subcategories can be made that partition the set and find the articles that belong in them. I understand not letting the best be the enemy of the good, I just don't think a category that's mostly unpopulated *is* good. I'd rather never have X emigrants to y country be created at all than have it only contain 4% of the eligible articles. - car chasm (talk) 17:42, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note to closer. This nomiation is deeply flawed:
  1. It has no WP:BEFORE
  2. it ignores the guideline WP:SMALLCAT's restriction to categories with "no potential for growth", without indication of any assessment of such potential
  3. #it ignores the guideline WP:SMALLCAT's exception for categories whch are part of an established series, as these are.
So if this is closed as "merge", I will take it to WP:DRV. Please can you therefore hold off implementing any close to allow the DRV to happen first. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:23, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Russian-speaking countries and territories

Nominator's rationale: WP:C2D List of countries and territories where Russian is an official language. WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. The category may require some purging; e.g. considering Russian is an official language in the entire Russian Federation, we need not list every single federal subject here (although for completeness' sake we might do so anyway). I'm also not sure if Russian was officially used in some historic states such as Ukrainian People's Republic; the infobox suggests this was not the case, despite "widespread" unofficial use.
Note that this category is about law, the legal status of the Russian language per jurisdiction. It is not about where the Russian language is spoken (or written) by anyone (geography) or by how many people (demographics). The Category:Geographical distribution of the Russian language and its main article Geographical distribution of Russian speakers already serve that purpose / those purposes. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:36, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Danish-speaking countries and territories

Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:29, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Chinese-speaking countries and territories

Nominator's rationale: WP:C2D List of countries and territories where Chinese is an official language. WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, and recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:29, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Cherokee-speaking countries and territories

Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, and recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:27, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Bulgarian-speaking countries and territories

Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, and recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:26, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Bengali-speaking countries and territories

Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, and recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:25, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Balochi-speaking countries and territories

Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, and recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:24, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Avar-speaking countries and territories

Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, and recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:23, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Arabic-speaking countries and territories

Nominator's rationale: WP:C2D List of countries and territories where Arabic is an official language. WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:21, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Broadcasters from from Cork (city)

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: procedural close: category has already been speedily deleted (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 17:31, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Only one preposition needed Certes (talk) 14:02, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, as it's empty. Oculi (talk) 14:08, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy delete per WP:C1 and WP:G7. I created this, and it's an obvious typo. No need for a discussion it could have been a speedy merge per WP:C2A/C2B.
    @Certes, please withdraw the CFD nom so that I can tag it for a G7 speedy. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:12, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Withdrawn. (If there's any information on how to withdraw a nomination properly or some sort of C2A tag to add, please point me at it. Twinkle only offers me C1, and it's not been empty seven days.) Certes (talk) 14:19, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, @Certes. For future ref, see what {{db-empty}} says. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:22, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:13th-century rulers of Monaco

Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT 2 P 0 C. WP:OR/WP:ARBITRARYCAT: François Grimaldi and Rainier I of Monaco, Lord of Cagnes both briefly held Monaco in practice, but had no de jure title with "of Monaco" in it. Rainier is identified as the progenitor of the Grimaldi dynasty, but his son Charles I, Lord of Monaco is the first to be identified as a "Lord of Monaco", both on the official Monegasque govt website and in literature such as page 83 of Françoise de Bernardy, Princes of Monaco: the remarkable history of the Grimaldi family, ed. Barker, 1961 (the main source cited in all three bios). If you search for "first Lord of Monaco", you'll also find "Charles Grimaldi" more often (example). His bio also says he had no predecessor as "Lord of Monaco": None (Rainier I, controlled the lordship of Cagnes). The claim in Rainier's own bio that Rainier I of Monaco (1267–1314) was the first sovereign Grimaldi ruler of the area now known as Monaco. is full of original research, and so is calling him I of Monaco in the article title. I think it should just be Rainier, Lord of Cagnes, Rainier I, Lord of Cagnes, Rainier I Grimaldi, Lord of Cagnes or something, just like the govt website and RS do. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
PS: The consequence of deletion will likely be that Category:14th-century rulers of Monaco should be upmerged. I'm not sure if I should nominate that category for Upmerging as part of this CfD, or just await the outcome of this CfD first? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:24, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The category reflects their control of the area, and not their official title. Dimadick (talk) 13:21, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    If that is the case, shouldn't we just consider them as warlords who controlled a certain area by force of arms, but without any political legitimacy (as evidenced by a title like Foo of Monaco)? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:27, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • "Warlord" does not really apply here. They were Genoese leaders trying to establish their own regime, in the context of internal conflicts in the Republic of Genoa. Monaco was a Genoese colony since 1215, but Genoa was in a state of civil war by the 1270s and the House of Grimaldi was facing the threat of exile. Dimadick (talk) 15:22, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        Thanks a lot for providing that historical context! Well, doesn't that neatly fit the definition given in warlord?
        • warlord: A warlord is a person who exercises military, economic, and political control
          • Dimadick: They were Genoese leaders trying to establish their own regime
        • warlord: control over a region
          • Dimadick: The category reflects their control of the area
        • warlord: a region in a country without a strong national government
          • Dimadick: Monaco was a Genoese colony since 1215, but Genoa was in a state of civil war by the 1270s
        • warlord: largely because of coercive control over the armed forces.
          • Dimadick: They were Genoese leaders trying to establish their own regime, and The category reflects their control of the area.
        To me this confirms François and Rainier Grimaldi were warlords. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:16, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, we categorize rulers by country, duchy, county or lordship, but not by occupied area. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:27, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Agreed. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:33, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Monarchs of the Hebrew Bible

  • Re-parent ? (let's discuss this in the comments)
Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C grandchild Category:Pharaohs in the Bible (and its main article Pharaohs in the Bible), item Cyrus the Great in the Bible, siblings Category:Women in the Hebrew Bible and Category:Giants in the Hebrew Bible. In the recent CfM "Biblical rulers by century", some people already suggested "in" was better than "of". Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:26, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Possible re-parenting Category:Monarchs of the Hebrew Bible currently has the following parents: Category:Hebrew Bible people (seems perfectly fine), Category:Monarchs in Africa (questionable, will probably only apply to grandchild Category:Pharaohs in the Bible, and even then it is questionable); Category:Middle Eastern monarchs (questionable and potentially anachronistic), and Category:Jewish monarchs (does not apply to non-Israelite monarchs). Some monarchs mentioned in the Hebrew Bible definitely existed as historical people, but other monarchs have been found by scholars to be literary characters: probably fictional, serving a narrative function in a moralistic story, but not based on historical people. Therefore, I hesitate to apply "in Africa" and "[in the] Middle East" as parents, because some of these monarchs seem to only exist in the pages of the Hebrew Bible, but not in history, nor in geography. Category:Hebrew Bible people is a great-grandchild of Category:People by religious text, alongside Category:Book of Mormon people, Category:People of the Quran, Category:Characters in the Mahabharata, Category:Characters in the Ramayana etc. The existence of a lot of, say, Book of Mormon rulers such as Laman and Lemuel, is also disputed, and we should not put them in categories/trees such as Category:Monarchs in North America. But they and monarchs in the Hebrew Bible could theoretically be put in a child category of Category:People by religious text named Category:Monarchs by religious text. Would that be a good idea? Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:21, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Gun politics by country

Nominator's rationale: "Gun politics" is a US-centric term, and does not describe any actual political movement or ideology in most other countries. Almost all of these categories were set up as parents of mass-shooting categories, which is inappropriate as mass shootings are not regarded as a political issue over gun ownership outside of the United States, as far as I'm aware. These subcats should all be purged. Other than that, Group B contain only a handful of categories that are about gun laws (not politics), and should be merged to the respective Law of Foo categories. Group C contain some articles that aren't specifically about gun laws. They should be pruned and the remaining articles recategorised under Firearms in Foo or something similar. Note that I have not touched the Australia category, in addition to (obviously) the United States. --Paul_012 (talk) 09:48, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please allow some time while I build the CfD nom and tag the subcats. Done. --Paul_012 (talk) 10:06, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per well-researched rationale of nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:28, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    PS: as mass shootings are not regarded as a political issue over gun ownership outside of the United States, as far as I'm aware. This may not be entirely true; it definitely was the reason for tight gun control in Australia after the 1996 Port Arthur massacre (Australia). It may also apply to Gun control in Brazil, though that article needs to be updated as noted already. For other countries you are probably right, e.g. in Switzerland, gun ownership has a strong correlation with suicide, though not with homicide, let alone mass shootings. People advocating for less gun ownership usually do so to reduce suicide rates, not because they are particularly concerned over mass shootings (although I can vividly remember the 2001 Zug massacre causing a lot of political debate over gun ownership). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:45, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, the articles are about law, not about politics. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:42, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:20th century in philosophy

Nominator's rationale: Duplicate category, no other centuries in philosophy exist in this format. (t · c) buidhe 04:04, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, sounds grammatically erroneous as well. Okiyo9228 (talk) 05:57, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is the other century categories that should be renamed, consistent with other topics by century trees. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:17, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Support Alt renaming per Marcocapelle, "18/19/20th century philosophy" doesn't have any special meaning in the field, we should follow the convention of the other trees. - car chasm (talk) 03:43, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians who feel disappointed with WMF

Nominator's rationale: WMF is short for "Wikimedia Foundation", "with Wikimedia Foundation" is ungrammatical. I considered listing this for C2A, but I doubted if this consituted an obvious error. CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 03:08, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
True. Added as an alternative. CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 15:56, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_June_13&oldid=1160211109"