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J. K. Rowling

Featured article candidates/J. K. Rowling

Notified: Serendipodous; WT:WPBIO; Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography/Arts and entertainment; WT:BRISTOL; WT:CHL; Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women writers; WT:WOMEN; WT:NOVELS; WT:FANTASY; WT:WPHP; talk page notification 2021-11-26; additional talk page notification

Review section

I am nominating this featured article for review because... it no longer meets WP:FACR due to instability, length/unnecessary detail, and lack of summary style. ––FormalDude ^talk 10:01, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

FormalDude, please notify appropriate editors/projects and provide diffs per the instructions at WP:FAR. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:44, 17 December 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Notifications still not done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:13, 18 December 2021 (UTC) [reply]

I've taken care of this. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 04:17, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What strikes me most upon skimming this article is the lack of literary analysis. Rowling is primarily known as an author; there's any amount of scholarly literature on the Harry Potter series; I would expect this to be represented. Conversely, at least a little of the blow-by-blow detail of her recent life ought to be pruned. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:57, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I was coming here to write this very comment myself. To Formal's point, however, I'm not sure if there will be enough editor willingness to let such changes through (well the recent life stuff at least). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:37, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Especially knowing from teacher friends of mine and from some light academic reading I've done, there is both wide literary analysis of the HP books and use in some educational settings to great value. I understand most of that text would go in the relevant articles, but seeing how the current HP section reads like an award list more than analysis of the works I feel that is to great detriment to this article regarding its comprehensive description of the influence of Rowling. On a similar note, for such an influential author it seems UNDUE how extensive the sections on philanthropy and views are compared to how bare-bones the sections on her work's impact. There is barely any mention of critical analysis or reviews of her books. Maya_Angelou#Reception_and_legacy and William_Gibson#Influence_and_recognition are both examples of sections in other FA articles that explore the author's influence to great success. Knowing just how ubiquitous it is in popular culture I'd expect more exploration of that in the article about her author aside from financial figures. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 22:56, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have to concur with Vanamonde93 and A. C. Santacruz. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:59, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Likewise. Innisfree987 (talk) 22:53, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I have made a proposal to split off the award list to its own article. I don't see the point in listing all the awards an immensely successfuly writer has received in the BLP and the major ones could be easily summarized (see Laurence_Olivier#Honours for an example, and the relevant discussion in the talk page here). It's just one of the many issues this article has with summary style, as identified in the general case above by FormalDude, in my opinion. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 23:16, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Some stats: there have been 8 reverts out of 34 total edits in December, and last month there were 18 reverts out of 48 total edits (diffs). ––FormalDude ^talk 08:33, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Move to FARC doesn't seem likely that the issues discussed above will be fixed in the course of a FAR (t · c) buidhe 21:05, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support nomination for FAR. The BLP is currently unstable and a battlefield for POV warriors. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:39, 21 December 2021 (UTC).[reply]
Move to FARC per above. – zmbro _(talk) 20:53, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Demote/move to FARC per the reasoning above. When somebody edits a featured article with an edit summary beginning with "Someone will no doubt revert this edit" and when there's a large a controversial RfC due to recent events, it is clear the article does not meet the stability criteria, and when there are indeed other content issues, it is clear it might not meet the rest of the FAC either. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:41, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Move to FARC per Vanamonde's concerns, this really needs literary criticism in here to meet WP:FACR. Hog Farm _Talk 16:29, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Move to FARC. Fixing the concerns I expressed above is not a trivial undertaking, and I see no effort being made to address them either. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:48, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Move to FARC due to concerns about lack of literary criticism of her writing and general bloating, as outlined above. Z1720 (talk) 17:51, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

FARC section

Issues raised in the review include scope, comprehensiveness, length and stability. DrKay (talk) 17:54, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delist due to the issues raised above. Noah^Talk 03:40, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delist because of instability due to edit warring. Xxanthippe (talk) 04:01, 2 January 2022 (UTC).[reply]
Delist as argued for above. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 11:32, 2 January 2022 (UTC) Let's wait for the improvement effort first. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 12:23, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Just noticed this. Would appreciate a few more days to look at the problems and see how to deal with them. Instability is a result of differing opinions and can be addressed. It is one of the most important woman's biographies. It is highly accessed with almost 60,000 pages views on 1 January. Take it easy!--Ipigott (talk) 19:00, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It just had one of the largest RfC in Wikipedia history with nearly 100 individual !votes.... you're not gonna fix that instability. ––FormalDude ^talk 01:05, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The topic may be unstable but to note, 100 ivotes is not a history-making RFC. Off the top of my head, here’s one with almost 250 ivotes, just for example. Innisfree987 (talk) 04:10, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with User:Ipigott that this an important and prominent BLP. Unfortunately, it has become a battleground for POV wars between feminists and trans-activists. Its FA standing implies that Wikipedia endorses these wars, which I do not believe is the case. The conciliatory approach advocated by Ipigott is worthy in principle, but such editing will be bludgeoned off the page by the zealots. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:43, 4 January 2022 (UTC).[reply]

@Ipigott: thanks for taking a look at this article. I am ammenable to putting this FAR on hold to give time for improvements, but I'm don't want this to be on hold for months, like what happened to British Empire's FAR. I suggest that editors interested in keeping the FA star spend a week making some improvements to the article (like preparing a literary analysis section, as suggested by the first few FAR reviewers) and conduct other fixes outside of the transgendered-comments topic area. After a week, please post here if you think this article could be fixed up in a month or two (in which I will recommend a hold) or if the problems will take many months to fix (in which I would recommend delisting and renominating the article as a WP:FAC when it is ready). Z1720 (talk) 13:47, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720 How does this solve the more pressing concern about criteria 1E? It's clear from the RFC on the article talk page that stability issues are likely to remain a recurring problem. To my mind, we need to delist until the article demonstrates stability. The only way to demonstrate stability is for the article to actually be stable for a sustained period of time (ie 6 months to a year with no edit warring). In other words, while improvements towards FA in other areas could be made I don't think it will ultimately prevent the article from being delisted. Editors are still welcome to work towards content improvements, but with the caveat that it's not likely going to lead towards the successful preservation on an FA listing due to chronic edit warring within the article.4meter4 (talk) 14:59, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

4meter4 I think that through a lengthy and somewhat heavy-handed series of talk page discussions it could attain the necessary stability in the transgender sections. I don't think the other areas are unstable, just missing large amounts of content one would expect from an author's FA-level BLP. I personally am of the view that her political opinions deserve their own article, and a short summary in the main article should be more easily stabilized. Of course, I don't really want to spend much time in the Rowling page so if no one else really wants to conduct the series of RfCs then I don't expect that to happen. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 15:04, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@A._C._Santacruz I agree that the current edit warring issues could be solved through a series of RFCs, but I am not confident that even that process will lead to longterm stability. Rowling tends to enjoy weighing in with controversial opinions on her Twitter account; which inevitably will lead to more media attention and subsequent edit warring on wikipedia. Rinse, Recycle, Repeat. Further, the timeline for solving these issues is unclear. That process could take months or even a year to work through. For FA purposes, it's best to delist now and let editors work towards solving instability issues outside of FA review. Once the article has become stable for a period of 6 months, then the article could be nominated for FA once again. Otherwise we have an FA review with an unreasonable open ended timeline.4meter4 (talk) 15:22, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@4meter4: I cannot see the future, so I do not know if the edit warring will continue in a month or two. It is easier for an article to be fixed up at FAR than it is to go through an FAC, which is why I prefer the former. I also do not want the precedence that an editor who wants to delist a FA can start an edit war and get the article delisted per 1E. When someone states that they are willing to fix up the article, I want to give them the benefit of making these improvements. There's no rush to delist now, and this discussion will probably not be closed until ~~Dec. 14~~ (EDIT: Jan. 14) at the earliest, as most FARCs last two weeks. If editors cannot make sufficient improvements in the next two weeks, I will propose that the article be delisted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Z1720 (talk • contribs)

@@Z1720:The fear that somehow this is an isolated instability issue resulting from one editor trying to attack the FA status is not grounded in the facts. In this case we have over a year of edit warring in the article's history with many editors involved, and a contentious RFC with roughly 100 active community editors involved. This is a prolonged instability problem, and all indications from wide community input indicate that it going to remain so. At some point, we actually need to enforce criteria 1E as written. We are at that point. Further, in order to demonstrate stability we need time that extends beyond what is reasonable for an open FAR.4meter4 (talk) 15:22, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I share Z1720's concerns about how application of 1e has been (mis)used in this FAR, and point out that a well-attended RFC is quite the opposite of an indication of instability. Enforcement of 1e as written is not what is happening in this FAR, and the issues raised about literary analysis are what should be examined here. (PS, I believe Z1720 meant Jan 14 in the post above.)

Also, since I raised the issue of how to correctly position a FAR nomination back in November, I don't consider that this FAR has actually looked at the question of whether this article meets WP:WIAFA at all, and is in fact a nomination that pointedly ignores the issues I raised in November, becoming an inappropriate attempt to make FAR part of dispute resolution or to extend a battleground. For that reason, I believe the FAR should remain open until someone actually lists the deficiencies by supplying reliable sources to, for example, missing literary analysis, and then explains why that literary analysis belongs in the author's bio rather than in the sub-articles about the works. FAR should not be allowed to become part of dispute resolution, as is happening here, and this FAR should refocus on application of the criteria before it is closed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@SandyGeorgia I disagree and find your comment overly cynical. I'll point out that I have not participated in any other discussions surrounding the Rowling article and am basing my opinion entirely on article history and talk page history. If an FA rated article has had chronic edit warring for over a year and a well attended RFC was unable to find a resolution, how can you possibly argue that criteria 1E isn't relevant or hint that editors indicating that it is are somehow misusing FAR process? To my mind, this is an argument with a clear attempt to ignore and subvert FA policy.4meter4 (talk) 16:04, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to respond to your insinuations.

If there are deficiencies with the article, start listing them please so that other reviewers (like Z1720) can discuss whether they actually are deficiencies and whether they can be resolved in the course of a FAR. The purpose of FAR is to identify deficiencies so they can (hopefully) be addressed, and this has not been done here. The purpose of FAR is not to enable editors who engage in editwarring to get an article delisted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:13, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@ SandyGeorgia Instability is a deficiency per criteria 1E. There are certainly other issues such as length and lack of literary analysis section as mentioned by others. However, I don't see that working towards those at this time will be useful at this FAR as the longterm instability problems (see article history) and failed attempts at dispute resolution (see RFC) indicate the need to delist immediately. I understand that you will disagree with this, and lets agree to just stop our back and forth for civility sake and our own well being. Have a good day.4meter4 (talk) 16:34, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am still inclined to delist now, but I think Z1720's reply above is probably the best thing to be done. Outside of stability issues the article can certainly be fixed and while I don't necessarily think it would be easy to get it back to FA level in a month, it certainly can get to GA. The main reason why I don't think it meets even GA criteria is the lack of analysis of her as an author as described in my previous comment above in the FAR section. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 15:00, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Typically "fixing" (as you say) an article (via focusing on sourcing) resolves the rest of the issues; that has not been done here, as no one yet has actually talked about sourcing and other matters of WP:WIAFA. One way to "fix" this FA might be to refocus the discussion where it might have been all along-- on WP:SS and what content belongs in sub-articles versus the main article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:17, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delist as argued above. I think it unlikely that instability issues will be be resolved through dialogue, or that temporary abatements through talk page resolutions will result in long term stability. Rowling has chosen to engage in controversy repeatedly, and is likely to continue to do so. As such, similar issues are likely to recur and instability is likely to be an ongoing and constantly evolving longterm problem.4meter4 (talk) 00:15, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delist for instability and length. ––FormalDude ^talk 01:06, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hold in FARC until someone lays out some reasoning to delist that relates to actionable problems with WP:WIAFA, per my statement above at 16:02. (The idea that a well-attended RFC is an indication of instability is not a notion that should be allowed to go on record at FAR, nor should FAR be allowed to become part of a battleground or evasion of dispute resolution.) Neither were those reasons laid out on article talk via an actual notification of deficiencies, as I requested back in November, nor has that been done here on this FAR. Many have said it can be done, but no one yet has done it, and this FAR should remain open until someone complies with the FAR instructions to notice actionable deficiencies and provide concrete examples and reasoning. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:07, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@SandyGeorgia I think you are overstating your case. FA status has no impact on dispute resolution, nor is FAR intended to involve itself in influencing or evading a dispute resolution process. On the contrary, delisting the article and allowing dispute resolution to continue through the normal channels is the best path forward in my opinion and the most congruent with FA and wikipedia wide policy. Our FA articles must be stable (ie free of edit warring). When they aren't, they get delisted until such time as they show evidence of stability and can re-apply for an FA rating.4meter4 (talk) 16:18, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have heard your case, which I find unconvincing, and I have no problem letting the FAR Coords decide whether I am "overstating my case", along with Ipigott and Z1720. (Since I am following this FAR, you may feel free to stop pinging me.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:24, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I have been pinged in a couple of different places, with the possible implication that I have granted extra time to this FAR. (here and here by Ipigott). To avoid confusion, @WP:FAR coordinators: can one of you clarify possible timelines for this article, and specify if time has been granted? This looks like it might be a complicated FAR, so this might also need a dedicated FAR coord to be the only point-person for decision making, similar to how Cas Liber stepped up in British Empire and laid out timelines for closing that FARC. Z1720 (talk) 17:13, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry Z1720 if I misunderstood you but on the basis of your previous comments I was fully prepared to see what I could do to sort things out in connection with the missing section on literary analysis. If this is no longer possible, please let me know as I have other important matters to attend to.--Ipigott (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ipigott: I am not an FAR co-ordinator, so I cannot grant extra time and don't want there to be the impression that I can. Hopefully the FAR co-ords can describe a possible timeline for this FAR. Z1720 (talk) 19:12, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's been mentioned that there is drafting underway to address the concern raised wrt literary criticism; certainly we can give some time to see how that proceeds. I also want to be clear that the simple existence of an RfC, even a contentious one, will not result in delisting on its own, and that FAR is not intended to be a dispute resolution venue. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:52, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The claim that nobody has raised actionable concerns grounded in the featured article criteria is nonsensical. The points raised by myself, Barkeep49, and A. C. Santacruz, which several other editors (including Buidhe and Hog Farm) have agreed with, have nothing to do with instability, and everything to do with comprehensiveness and representation of sources (criteria 1b and 1c). There is no independent literary analysis of Rowling's writing in this article. There are hundreds of sources available; their existence is not in dispute; neither is the fact that they are not covered in this article. If Ipigott wants time to work on these sources, that's fine with me, but the claim that there's no actionable feedback is meaningless, and if we were going to hold this up over procedural reasons of notification, we should have done it a long while ago. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:18, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If I had more time I'd have been doing the work to add the literary analysis as I have access to the sources and subject expertise to do that work and agree that this is a highly visible page so having it be of the highest quality is a benefit to the encyclopedia. However, I don't have the time. If someone else does I would love for them to do it. But in absence of that content I agree with Vanamonde that it cannot be said to meet the standards expected of an FA. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:21, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) My concern here is primarily that the article lacks any sort of literary criticism, which is problematic given the extremely influential nature of Rowling as a writer. I do disagree with the idea that this fails the stability criteria; a single content dispute that is being worked out doesn't warrant delisting. Hog Farm _Talk 17:22, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To all three; yes, there appears on the surface to be an absence of literary criticism, but a) we have no examination of what exists in sub-articles; b) we have no indication if high-quality reliable sources are excluded, and what those are; and c) we have had no discussion about how much of what would be included where in a properly summarized main bio, as for example at the literary great James Joyce, which was repaired in the course of a FAR. A roadmap for repairing this FA via summary style would advance either this FAR, or post-FAR efforts, but !votes to delist per 1e are ill-informed. I have little doubt that, if experienced FA writers were to engage here and employ summary style, the problems in this article could be resolved. Regardless of whether that happens, at minimum this FAR should document where the issues are and what actionable measures can be used to resolve them. Simply stating that literary criticism is absent is insufficient; note at the literary great James Joyce one could make the same claim because much of the literary critique is in subarticles and is summarized back to the main article. The same can be done with the rest of the controversial content here, but we shouldn't be making decisions based on ill-formed RFCs (I've launched a few of those myself). If the article is to be delisted, let's at least do it for the right reason, after we have assured that the problems can't be fixed by moving some content to here and some content out of here from the various sub-articles. Even if we fail, we at least leave a roadmap for future repair. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:53, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"we have no examination of what exists in sub-articles" That is asking the reviewers here to prove a negative. Has anyone examined more specific articles and determined that there is enough material to cover all her themes? I have examined a few, and what's there isn't encouraging. It's heavily based on interviews with Rowling (which have their place, but aren't a substitute for independent analysis); and on media sources. Scholarly sources are few and far between. "we have no indication if high-quality reliable sources are excluded" yes we do; there's no substantive use of any high-quality literary criticism. I could easily provide a couple dozen sources; I'm not doing so because I'm not concerned about the exclusion of specific sources, but the exclusion of the entire body of literary/scholarly source material. "we have had no discussion about how much of what would be included where in a properly summarized main bio"; because, at the moment, we have no substance to discuss at all. We aren't at the stage where such a discussion is meaningful. Very few of us are giving any weight to any RfCs; I haven't bothered to read the one referred to above, as it has no bearing on my argument. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:07, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Examples might better illustrate my concern-- if not for the immediate outcome, but in terms of leaving a direction for future work at least, so that FAR is doing what it's supposed to do, and we're not leaving a precedent of a delisting based on faulty reasoning.
We have seen examples at FAR of a google scholar search being provided to justify "not comprehensive", but when examining each source returned by google, it was found that nothing was actually left out.
We have seen examples of "X is not included", but if there are no sources covering X, that cannot be a WIAFA 1b issue.
We have had FAs "saved" even after multiple "delists" were entered, when someone steps in to actually do the work--but it's unlikely that work that hasn't been identified will be undertaken.
My concern is whether a stricter application of WP:SS might address a lot of what ails this article. Even if the star is lost, it's nice to see an article leave FAR in better shape than when it appeared, or at least with editors having some knowledge of what needs fixing.
Barack Obama (which was suffering from the same unproductive POV-back-and-forth rants on talk, but little focus on sources) offers an example. It is insufficient to make the general statement that "X point of view is not included" in the absence of specifics and sample sources. At that FAR, I pointed out a recent and specific scholarly source from Princeton historian Julian E. Zelizer that included critical analysis of Obama's presidency but was scarcely represented in the article, along with Leadership and Legacy: The Presidency of Barack Obama, Lansford, 2021, that was not used at all. More than a month later, with not a single edit towards addressing those actionable issues, the article was defeatured. At least editors coming along in the future can read a FAR to see what they can do to restore the article.
FAR is failing to do its job if this article is delisted on 1e absent an actual analysis of deficiencies with specific examples. Providing those might also encourage someone to start addressing the real issues, and focusing on sources almost always ends the battleground. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:14, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, I don't think you're hearing me. Examples are helpful when there is a dispute over whether sources are fairly represented. With this article, there is no dispute; literary criticism is absent, period. Even those who wish to preserve FA status, whose efforts I will do my best to support, recognize the obvious deficiency, and are working to amend it. If the people doing this work are able to see the validity and usefulness of my concerns above, I don't see why you are critiquing the reviewers here. If I have any more time for this article, I would rather spend it on the userspace draft that is being developed, and so I'm going to step away from this argument. Vanamonde (Talk) 20:27, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a large section on her literary output per the comments above and Special:PermaLink/1063766433#J._K._Rowling_delisting_as_FA. Hopefully this goes some way towards addressing Vanamonde93's, and others', concerns regarding the lack of such a section in this review. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 02:47, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
AleatoryPonderings I think that's a good start, but I'd expect a bit more on the legacy of her works (e.g. Due to its commercial success, fantasy became a dominant genre in the children's market, a sea change from its declining status in the 1980s. seems like a promising start for a really interesting paragraph). I think another interesting source of academic analysis on her legacy is on The Death of the Author and how fans are starting to disassociate the Harry Potter IP with the author. I don't have any sources on hand atm, but thought it would be of help to mention this here. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 12:29, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This link had a really interesting quote that doesn't merit being included but goes along the lines of what I was suggesting above: In becoming so, it seems to me, her intentions and responsibilities as author diminish and fade into irrelevance. She ceases to be the author of the phenomenon and simply becomes part of the phenomenon as author. Note this phenomenon of separating Rowling from HP is not necessarily based only on the trans controversy, but also on the merits of her being able to tweet that Dumbledore is gay and how that affects the canon, see this journal article. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 12:37, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
AleatoryPonderings Thanks for that; that's a substantive piece of work. I will try to review it in detail in a day or two. Three suggestions at the outset. 1) At the top-level article, we would generally want to treat her writing as a whole, rather than separated by series, because series-specific stuff is what you'd expect to see in articles about them. Obviously, with Rowling, >90% of the criticism is about HP; but I still think we could work on integrating commentary about anything else into the same section. 2) The Characters subsection, at the moment, reads like material about heroism as a theme combined with a throwaway piece about Snape. I'd suggest omitting the latter and reworking the former into the themes. 3) Similarly, ordinary vs extraordinary is also something I'd see as part of themes. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:14, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, thank you, per VM93. It is encouraging that this addition was made so quickly, reinforcing my view that (at least some of) the needed work is doable, and the FAR should remain open for work to progress. It is unconscionable that we have a highly viewed BLP in such embarrassing shape, so that even if we don't end up saving the rusty star, we can at least help restore some balance. It might be worthwhile to begin laying out other work needed, and to determine whether a team of FA-experienced writers would take this on (Johnbod, I saw you somewhere in some discussion of this article, have you any interest?), but it is probably best to first allow some time for Vanamonde93's feedback to be worked on, and to see how that goes. If that piece is successful, and more editors are interested, we might move on to identifying other issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:55, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, no - I've done some little edits on talk and I think the article, but won't be doing major editing. Johnbod (talk) 17:11, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Further comment, based on having read or skimmed a couple dozen sources to this point; the themes commented upon most often are death and heroism; religion is discussed both as a theme and in terms of critical reception; and politics and gender, at least, are also discussed in the latter category. When writing this material I would typically break it into "themes" and "reception" (always), and "style and structure", "influences", and "legacy" (depending on what the source material focuses on). This article does not need to follow my preferences, of course, but a couple of these broad categories feel mixed together at the moment, not to mention the duplicated "influences" section. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:15, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looking quickly through the article now (for the first time) it seems in fair shape to me. I don't personally feel we need an enormous amount of lit crit analysis here. Let me know when it comes to a vote. Johnbod (talk) 17:25, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Johnbod and Vanamonde93, there's a bit that could be done before approaching a !vote, but history shows that when an experienced FA writer takes the lead, a save can happen during a FAR (a WP:MILLION in this case). Without an experienced lit FA writer on board, and taking the lead, not sure ... It seems that Barkeep49 is too busy, and I'm not sure what message VM93 is sending :) VM, would you take a lead role in a rewrite? Wtfiv is still busy at Joan of Arc, and there's Victoriaearle, who I hesitate to ask at this point, as this would be a big undertaking, and she has health issues. Who else is hiding in the woodwork? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 75: / Line 75: @@
 *Further comment, based on having read or skimmed a couple dozen sources to this point; the themes commented upon most often are death and heroism; religion is discussed both as a theme and in terms of critical reception; and politics and gender, at least, are also discussed in the latter category. When writing this material I would typically break it into "themes" and "reception" (always), and "style and structure", "influences", and "legacy" (depending on what the source material focuses on). This article does not need to follow my preferences, of course, but a couple of these broad categories feel mixed together at the moment, not to mention the duplicated "influences" section. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Vanamonde93|Vanamonde]] ([[User Talk:Vanamonde93|Talk]])</span> 17:15, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 *::Looking quickly through the article now (for the first time) it seems in fair shape to me. I don't personally feel we need an enormous amount of lit crit analysis here. Let me know when it comes to a vote. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 17:25, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
+*:::Johnbod and Vanamonde93, there's a bit that could be done before approaching a !vote, but history shows that when an experienced FA writer takes the lead, a [[WP:FASA|save]] can happen during a FAR (a [[WP:MILLION]] in this case).  Without an experienced lit FA writer on board, and taking the lead, not sure ... It seems that Barkeep49 is too busy, and I'm not sure what message VM93 is sending :) VM, would you take a lead role in a rewrite? Wtfiv is still busy at Joan of Arc, and there's Victoriaearle, who I hesitate to ask at this point, as this would be a big undertaking, and she has health issues.  Who else is hiding in the woodwork? [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]])  18:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)