Wikipedia talk:In the news/Recurring items

Removal proposal: Toronto International Film Festival

I can't seem to find any substantive evidence of the consensus by which this was added to ITNR. A quick search shows we posted a story about this in 2012 (the 2012 Toronto International Film Festival article) and in 2010 (similar year award article) but not since (unless we posted some other article). We have eight film related ITNRs, is this one worthy of inclusion alongside Oscars, BAFTAs, Berlin, Venice, Cannes etc? The Rambling Man (talk) 08:29, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

• Keep. Its article states that it is referred to as "second only to Cannes" and "most influential fall film festival". I haven't yet read up on the other festivals, but this one seems important. 331dot (talk) 02:35, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
• Keep. It's an important film festival. I would rather remove the Berlin film festival and the two Indian film awards (and add the Sundance festival instead). 87.154.211.142 (talk) 18:08, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
• Remove, as 331dot said, it is "second to". We don't post awards second only to Nobel prizes, so why should we do it with films? Nergaal (talk) 08:35, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Remove. We don't need four different film festivals, and film is overrepresented anyway. This festival seems to be of interest to those in the industry only - a view that is backed up by the lack of attention & posting in recent years. Modest Genius ^talk 12:19, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Remove I would like the "keepers" to provide evidence that this localised film festival really is second only to the first- or second-most notable European film award festival. Or, per Nergaal, how many of these "second to" film awards do we need at ITNR? We can re-visit this should it be nominated at ITNC in due course. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:56, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment. I won't lose any sleep if this is removed from the list, but the article cites Variety for the "second only to Cannes" claim and cites Time Magazine as claiming it has "grown from its place as the most influential fall film festival to the most influential film festival, period." 331dot (talk) 22:19, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
• Remove The which film festival? Oh... that one. Hmmm. --Dweller (talk) 10:35, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Keep - how one can claim with a straight face that film is overrepresented at ITN/R is beyond me. If anything is overrepresented it is sports. Anyway...this is festival is not really second to Cannes, because the two are very different festival. Cannes = European and international arthouse, Toronto = big quality productions. 93.215.94.140 (talk) 11:57, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

  Not one of the "big three" though, so more suited to ITNC. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:41, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

  The Big Three are very different from TIFF (or Sundance and Tribeca), it's like comparing the Nobel to the Alternative Nobel (Right Livelihood Award). 93.215.95.55 (talk) 00:05, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

  Yes, this can easily stand on its own at ITNC should there be any consensus to post it, given that it's not been up for the last couple of years, it's clear there's no real interest in it at ITN. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:34, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Remove: Not posted since 2012 means it shouldn't be ITN/R. That doesn't preclude nominating notable outcomes at ITN/C. -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:30, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
• Keep - TIFF is the top film festival in North America. It's where many Hollywood films have their premiere, and where numerous distribution and production deals are made for the biggest Hollywood hits. Many "remove" voters seem to be quite uninformed about its importance. -Zanhe (talk) 23:21, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
• Remove - Important or not, "People's Choice Award" does not reach the same level as "Best" awards. Also, as a popularity contest, it is not politics, like elections. Many movies haven't reached ITN standards of significance lately. The fact that the annual ceremonies haven't been posted indicates lack of some interest. Still, no prejudice to individually nominate festivals in ITNC. George Ho (talk) 05:57, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
• Remove Reluctantly agree. It's not on par with Cannes, etc (it's not in the top "league" of festivals per the FIAPF). Obviously if it's a slow news day/week, then (article quality permitting) it can be nominated/posted. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 11:08, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Removal proposal: Badminton entries

BWF World Championships and Thomas & Uber Cups have not been featured in the Main Page. Also, the seasonal articles are written like stubs with statistics. I want to nominate them separately, but all three (or two if you want to count two Cups as one) have never been posted for four or five years. You can vote both, BWF only, or Thomas & Uber. --George Ho (talk) 17:16, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Badminton is a major sport in much of the world; posting it's largest and most prestigious competition should be uncontroversial; so I would not be in favor of removal of the item from ITNR, any year where a quality article was worked up would be reasonable to post. For that reason, I don't think it needs to be removed. The fact that it hasn't been improved is that systematic bias we're always trying to fix; not being a major sport in Anglophone countries, it doesn't get as much attention. But from a worldwide perspective, it's a major event. --Jayron32 17:29, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Almost forgot; the removal shall not prejudice posting one season event in ITNC. --George Ho (talk) 17:36, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

The next question is, does international news talk about it as much other than the Olympics? The last time badminton have been on international news was when four pairs of women players were kicked out of the Olympics for tanking. The only side for support is that they tend to be covered more in Asia but I cannot speak for there ATM. Donnie Park (talk) 21:20, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

We tried this a couple of years ago, there was reasonable support to keep it included. I said at the time it wouldn't be a major issue to drop them since they've barely appeared, and I'll stand by that, but I'm also reluctant to see such systemic bias destroy ITNR until we have a few soccer stories, and mainly American sports and Nobel winners.... The Rambling Man (talk) 23:17, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I should note that it's existence on ITNR only means that the presumption is that article quality is the only thing up for debate. I don't know that I'd ever oppose it on significance any time we did have a quality article. That's what we really should be looking at here: would that we DID have a quality article every year, would anyone reasonably oppose this on significance grounds? If that hypothetical question is answered "no, if we always had a good article, we'd always post this" then keeping it on ITNR is appropriate. If that hypothetical question is answered "No, even if the article was awesome every year, I'd think this would usually be opposed on significance grounds" then it should be removed. Issue of quality aren't really an ITNR issue. It's only meant to deal with articles whose subjects are significant enough that no one would oppose them if quality wasn't itself an issue. --Jayron32 03:41, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose just to be clear. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:18, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose removal for the reasons stated above. 331dot (talk) 23:31, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
• Remove the whole idea of ITNR is to list events that are so popular they gain widespread support without discussion. The point of ITNR is not to balance anything, or to promote unpopular subjects like this one. μηδείς (talk) 01:39, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

What is popular is subject to our systemic bias and that should be taken into account. 331dot (talk) 19:50, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

• Remove 2 of the 3. Nergaal (talk) 06:06, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Can you specify, Nergaal? George Ho (talk) 06:50, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Any 2 of the 3. Nergaal (talk) 18:58, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

We should not just remove two at random. Do you have a suggestion as to which two should be removed? 331dot (talk) 19:50, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

I think it's kind of you to try discussing these things 331dot, but Nergaal is clearly not here to improve Wikipedia, just make a point or make others do the work for him. Best off ignoring this kind of trolling. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:54, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Stop rambling. Badminton is overrepresented. 1 item instead of 3 would be an appropriate reporesentation. Nergaal (talk) 20:21, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Stop being so unhelpful and making useless and pointed nominations and comments. Do something helpful, that is if you really care? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:26, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose removal per Jayron32. Neljack (talk) 01:59, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - it's an internationally popular sport, especially in Asia, and not as overrepresented as the umpteen varieties of football. -Zanhe (talk) 04:35, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Removal proposal: Laurence Olivier Award

Never been posted this decade. However, it's still listed in ITNR list. Also, efforts to improve seasonal articles haven't been done. Even when notable, the awards may not have enough merits to meet today's ITNR standards anymore. --George Ho (talk) 01:15, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

• Remove the ITNR list itself is a joke, since it was simply spun out of whole cloth by admins, with no individual RfC's for the listings. This is not just a good subject for removal, it shows why the entire ITNR concept is fatally flawed. μηδείς (talk) 01:42, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

You are free to propose ending the ITNR list at any time, or even just propose the removal of items you find inappropriate(as has been done at a good clip recently by others). People have had years to challenge the list or its content on any grounds they wish(including when it was created). Do you have any comment about the merits of this item? 331dot (talk) 09:30, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Medeis, I think the efforts on this page to find consensus for the challenging issues in ITN/R are very positive, whatever results from each one, and show an appetite for its existence, and a well-understood approach to why it's useful, even if we may differ on the application to individual entries. --Dweller (talk) 09:52, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I am glad you think that, but how many items on ITNR were placed there due to their own individual nomination? You will see if anyone wants to list the diffs. But at best almost all of the items were added by admins in huge chunks according to what they thought should be listed, not after actual RFC's were held for the individual items. There's no justification for saying that whatever an admin does by pure prerogative needs to be shown as unsupported by consensus by a formal campaign. Every item on ITNR needs to be linked to the diff that shows how it got on that list, just like every editor who has been blocked has a block log. Otherwise we are simply being ruled by a self-appointed bureaucratic 'nobility' of privilege. μηδείς (talk) 01:20, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

But that's what these discussions are providing, either a justification to keep, where a diff is then added to reference the inclusion, or a reason to remove. Feel free to nominate as many of the other items you dislike as you wish, that way we'll eventually have a ref for each and every ITNR item so this kind of complaint becomes moot. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:09, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

• Question. The page on the award states that it is the British equivalent of the Tony Awards; to me the question then becomes does this get the same level of attention as the Tonys? 331dot (talk) 09:30, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
• Keep. The Tonys and Oliviers are the two top awards in the fields of stage musicals and plays. They're essentially equivalents, just on opposite sides of the Atlantic. It would be very strange to include one and not the other. I'm surprised it hasn't been posted recently - I'm sure I remember a more recent nomination, but perhaps it was one of the specific plays/musicals rather than the article on that year's awards. Modest Genius ^talk 15:42, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
• Remove: Never posted this decade is enough said. Regardless of the merits, its inclusion on the ITN/R list is meaningless. There is clearly no interest in posting this item on a regular basis. -Kudzu1 (talk) 07:27, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
• Keep per Modest Genius. Neljack (talk) 01:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

[Removed] Removal proposal: BRICS summits

According to the talk pages, we last posted this in 2012, and the quality of the articles since has probably explained why it's not featured since. On the days of the actual summit this year, the article peaked out at 2,839 hits, just about as popular as the average DYK which stays on the mainpage for 12 hours. Do we wish to continue this free pass or should we ask for ITNC next time anyone shows a glimmer of interest in this? The Rambling Man (talk) 08:21, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• I say remove for now; the interest doesn't seem to be there. It can always be added back in the future if interest increases; it should be tested at ITNC before that. 331dot (talk) 19:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
• Remove: Boring summit at which something notable happening would likely be nominated at ITN/C anyway. -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:58, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
• Remove: No real impact unless they sign major deals such as the establishment of the New Development Bank, which can be assessed on a case-by-case basis. -Zanhe (talk) 04:29, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
• Remove: Although BRICS is kinda significant, the summits are just meetings without much impact. Of course, the summits can be individually nominated at ITNC without prejudice. George Ho (talk) 05:50, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
• Removed per consensus. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:23, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

[Kept] Removal proposal: AFL Grand Final

Posted twice in the last five years, it would be good to get a recorded consensus for the retention in ITNR of this Aussie rules climax. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:36, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• Keep Shouldn't all the codes of football have at least one ITNR? The footballs are very basic sports and are the most popular sport in at least one Anglophone country (rugby union might be #1 only in Samoa and Fiji (and possibly smaller ones) but it's clearly big enough). I have no opinion about Gaelic football. It's the most popular sport in Ireland but not cared about by non-Irish (I've never even heard of the US's huge Irish population being fans and I've heard of many of their great traditions). Which wouldn't be a problem except I don't know if a country of 4 million people is enough. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:36, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

  I'm just using this as an opportunity to record a consensus, not to promote a particular position I may hold. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:40, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

  • I knew that. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:47, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• Keep. Hugely popular in Australia and the top level of the sport. Uncontentious. Modest Genius ^talk 13:33, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
• Keep If article quality is sufficient, I could not see any rational reason to prevent this from being on the main page. --Jayron32 13:46, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
• Kept per consensus. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:24, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Change proposal: All changes to the head of government

This is a restart of the Wikipedia talk:In the news/Recurring items/Archive 17#Closed All changes to the head of government discussion that was closed due to being stalled.

Change

Changes to the head of government are discussed on their own merits. If election is held in two rounds, only the second round results (i.e., when the official is actually elected) are usually posted.

to

* The succession of a head of government.

Rationale:

It is not logical that the succession of powerless (and internationally unknown) heads of state like the President of Germany (would you have known his name?) or the the Grand Duke of Luxembourg is listed at ITNR, but the succession of the Prime Minister of Australia or the Chancellor of Germany or the Prime Minister of Luxembourg (who has a lot of veto power in the EU) is not.

Elizabeth II is head of state of more than 8% (!) of all countries in the world without having real power in any of these countries, and in Europe alone I'm counting 8 additional kings/queens/princes who are head of state.

Among the G7 countries, 2 countries have pretty powerless heads of state (Germany, Italy) and 3 countries with a powerless king/queen as head of state. France is the only G7 country not sending the head of government.

When looking at the 28 EU countries, the most powerful position is in 3 countries the head of state, in 24 countries the head of government, and in 1 country a person who is both.

Unless there is a clear victory, immediately after the general election it is often not clear which parties will form a government. A month is pretty normal for smooth negotiations which parties will be part of the new government and for them to agree on the terms of the government, and until that point you might not even know whether there will be a change in the head of government. In Belgium it took in recent years once 196 days and once over 500 days after the general election to form a government.

There can be a different ruling party without general elections. When the biggest party of the new coalition is not the same as the biggest party of the old coalition, the result is a new head of government from a different party. This is how Helmut Kohl became chancellor of Germany, and it is even more common in countries with 6-9 parties in parliament and 3-6 parties in government (yes, six different parties forming a government together is nothing strange in some countries).

Or there can be a new head of government from the same party due to death/illness/scandal/voluntary retirement or a rebellion inside the party (like the one in Australia that was recently posted to ITN).

Note that not every general election results in a change in the head of government, and that a change of the coalition with the same head of government (e.g. Angela Merkel did this after both the 2009 and 2013 elections) would not result in an ITN posting for the head of government by the changed rule (the election is still posted due to the existing rule for general elections).

LoveToLondon (talk) 10:21, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

• I don't think this can of worms needed to be re-opened- but if a change in head of government does not pass ITNC(such as the Georgian PM being discussed), why should it be on ITNR? 331dot (talk) 12:07, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed, no need. Another waste of time. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:22, 28 December 2015 (UTC)