Talk:Standing bell

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Pseudo-science[edit]

I was going to delete this:

"Crystal singing bowls Crystal singing bowls are one of the most powerful, beautiful and easy to utilize healing tools available today. These bowls are specially made for it's healing effect. They are made from 99% silica sand (quartz) and are literally spun into being in a centrifugal mould which is heated to 4000 degrees and an electric arc in the centre fuses the individual grains into one whole. This is why the inside of the bowls is smooth and the outside granular and sparkly like tiny quartz grains. When they come out of the mould they are then tuned. This is done through a process similar to sanding down the bowl on the outside or by trimming the bowls height until the required note is found. The outside rim of the bowl is then played by pulling a suede mallet or a beater with a large rubber ball on the end around it which causes a friction and the sound is then produced. Think of how a sound is produced when a wine glass is rimmed with a wet finger. They may also be lightly taped to create a more bell like ‘dong’.

Crystal singing bowls were originally a by product from the computer industry, quartz can be heated to high temperatures so quartz ‘crucibles’ were use to grow computer chips and other components within them. Crystal Singing bowls first came into being as healing tools in 1990. Tibetan ‘7’ metal bowls which work in a similar way have been in use for centuries. More recently the quartz bowls have been infused with other gemstones such as Ruby and Rose Quartz as well as precious metals such as gold and silver. Crystal bowls are so powerful as they combine several healing modalities; sound healing, crystal healing and healing through light and colour. These properties can be further enhanced by the power of focused intention. Sound healing works on the principle that everything in our universe is energy which has a vibration. Everything in existence within the universe is in a vibrational state. The frequency at which we normally vibrate is called resonance. Certain sounds therefore will resonate with different organs and parts of the body. Sound has been scientifically proven to have an effect on our autonomic, immune & endocrine systems as well as the neuropeptide transmitters in our brain. Sound healing practitioners’ look at their clients from this perspective and seek to balance their clients ‘dis-ease’ through correction of vibrational imbalances in their energetic system i.e. their aura or electromagnetic blueprint. When an organ in the body is not functioning at its optimum its sound pattern will be off, yet by re introducing the correct sound pattern this will help it to heal and return to health through the law of resonance. This law states that when one energetic system encounters another, similar system, their vibrations must come into a state of resonance or harmonic vibration. It has also been documented how sound can effect matter. 80% of our bodies are water and the effect that sound has on water has been photographically demonstrated in Dr Masaru Emoto’s book `The Hidden Messages in Water’. Different sounds produced different types of geometric shapes within frozen water. Playing ‘Mozart’ produced beautiful symmetrical snowflake like crystals whilst discordant sound had no clear structure. You can imagine then the power of sound on the Water within our bodies! Dr Hans Jenny demonstrated how matter responds to sound using Cymatics. Cymatics is the use of ‘Pure Tone’ or ‘sine waves’ within the audible spectrum to produce physical patterns on a medium such as liquid or sand. A good example of this is how the ‘Shri Yantra’ pattern is produced by the ‘Aum’ sound. Crystal bowls are unique in sound healing as they produce ‘pure tones’ when played. When we produce a sound with our voices or other instruments the note waivers and varies. With crystal singing bowls the note does not waiver. This produces a wave of energy known as a ‘sine’ wave that spreads out for a kilometre from the bowl in all directions and lasts for several minutes. Sine waves appear in nature in ocean waves and light waves. At higher frequencies sound converts into colour which is within the spectrum of light. Sine waves have the same energetic pattern that occurs in our brain in alpha state. In the alpha brain wave state the brainwaves run at about 8 to 12 cycles per seconds or hertz. This is a calm meditative state where the person is still alert and the is more receptive to learning, focusing and suggestion.

Crystal healing also works with vibration. Scientifically Quartz crystals have been shown to have high piezoelectric & pyroelectric properties. The piezoelectric effect is produced when a quartz crystal is compressed, which causes it to release a voltage of electricity and sometimes light. With Crystal bowls this compression of the crystalline structure occurs when the bowl is played. Pyroelectricy is caused by variation in temperature of the crystal and causes the energy within the crystal to expand when heated and contract upon cooling. This cooling would then store the energy within the crystalline structure. In my experience the crystal bowl ‘warms up’ when played. Even very small changes in temperature have been shown to produce this pyroelectric effect. Quartz crystals have the ability to take in energy, store it, redirect it and amplify it. Quartz absorbs white light and therefore has every colour frequency within it. Our bodies also contain silica and some of our glands are said to oscillate like crystals. Glands like the pineal gland are even crystalline in shape and structure as are cells right down to the molecular level. So quartz crystals will resonate with these structures. The bowls that have other gemstones fused with them will also have the metaphysical properties of that stone. Colour plays a part in this as does the individual mineral content of the stone. For example the gemstone turquoise is good for helping with joint pain and problems such as arthritis. Turquoise is a mineral rich in copper; copper bracelets have been used for centuries to bring sufferers relief from these ailments, so the stone will thus have a similar effect.

Crystal bowls work as a synergy between all of the above mentioned modalities. As quartz has the ability to take in energy and vibration and as our thoughts are waves of energy or vibration the bowls will absorb these ‘thought vibrations’ and amplify them. Carlos Castaneda said there's an immeasurable, indescribable force which shamans called "intent" and absolutely everything that exists in the entire cosmos is connected to it. When we focus our thoughts with laser like clarity and precision we are connecting to the vibration of that which we seek to manifest. Quartz bowls will hone our thoughts and make them clearer. Through the law of attraction these clear thoughts then magnetize those things to us. The film ‘The Secret’ clearly documents how and why positive, clear thought brings those things that we focus on into being. It also demonstrates how we create our reality by our thoughts and the vibration that they and we as individuals hold. Positive thought has been shown to produce positive changes in out physiology. Therefore the more we ‘intend’ and believe the crystal singing bowls will effect those and others the more they will."

Because it is not fact and doesn't belong on Wikipedia. I'm only posting it here because I see now that there is some debate about the worthiness of this information. If anyone sees anything in here that belongs in the article, feel free to put it back in. Hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes here, I just don't see anything of value in the above text. Conical Johnson (talk) 02:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Difficulty[edit]

I've removed, "It is reportedly very difficult to master; if done incorrectly the bowl will produce no sound". This gives the impression that producing the sound is a difficult thing. This is not so, or at least, not for all bowls: I lived with a guy who had one last year, and it was very easy for me and other housemates to get it to produce the sound. — Matt Crypto 08:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


If it's a high quality bowl, you're right - they sing very easily.


Vandalism[edit]

I think i was just accused of vandalism on 1 December 2006! This is b9 hummingbird hovering here. I do NOT vandalise. I am not on my pc atm...but my edits are reputable and honourable. Respectfully.

Boris Allen (user): don't undo my edits (eg Singing bowl and Singing bowls without due investigation. If you have a challenge please add it to [[1]] so we may resolve. Respectfully Beauford

Multiphonic trance induction[edit]

I would very much like this paragraph to be investigated, sourced and referenced and included! I do not have my notes currently but I will in the not too distant future. :-D

Neuroanthropology and cognitive neuroscience are conducting research into the trance induction of altered states of consciousness (possibly engendering higher consciousness} resulting from neuron firing entrainment with these polyharmonics and multiphonics. Related research has been conducted into neural entraining with percussive polyrhythms. The timbre of traditional singing bowls and their polyrhythms and multiphonics are considered meditative and calminative and the harmony inducing effects of this potentially consciousness alterning tool are being explored by scientists, medical professionals and therapists.

Cool, please do, but don't forget Wikipedia:Reliable sources and WP:NPOV -- I'm pretty sure that this stuff is not mainstream. — Matt Crypto 14:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

NB: "pretty sure"... ;~P *heheheheheh*

"Understatement is a staple of British humor." — Matt Crypto 15:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

References[edit]

I apologize if this is the wrong way to add something to the discussion. I couldn't figure out how to add a new section. My comment is simply that the image that accompanies this article is perhaps misleading. The gong/bell at Kiyomizu-dera in Kyoto, Japan is not used as a singing bowl but rather as a single-strike gong. I'm not even sure that it CAN function in the typical "singing bowl" fashion by rubbing the mallet around the edge. I think the image should be removed and, if possible, another image of an ACTUAL "singing bowl" should replace it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.198.192 (talk) 01:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Not done All of these appear to be pseudoscience, and not suitable for inclusion in this article. The first doesn't mention standing bells/singing bowls at all. MichaelMaggs (talk) 21:38, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

trance induction, etc.[edit]

Singing bowls are bells and wonderful instruments for personal wellbeing. There is no evidence of any traditional use in trance induction. Today, the vast majority use singing bowls for meditation and the peaceful feeling they help foster. It is a tiny minority that will ever be interested in trance induction, altered states, etc. Drums and eloctronic music are much more suitable for trance than singing bowls. Let's not scare people away from these sublime and gentle instruments by getting into the heavy shamonic stuff here on Wikipedia!

Singing bowl differences of perception and opinion[edit]

Singing bowls come from a shamanic tradition! The Himalayan tradition is fundamentally animistic and shamanic! Give this a read http://www.thameshudson.co.uk/books/Shamanism_and_Tantra_in_the_Himalayas/9780500511084.mxs/34/0/ (accessed: 3 December 2006).

There is a fundamental misunderstanding here...meditative states are a form of trance... sleeping is also a form of trance. Even conscious awareness in Beta is a trance. Trance involves filtering of information and brain functioning. It is a matter of functionality and efficiency. There is published evidence. Have you looked? Do u know of the Oracle in the Himalayan tradition? Are you a Buddhist practitioner? Do you regularly sound a singing bowl? I am a Bonpo Dzogchenpa in a traditional lineage. I employ singing bowls amongst other shamanic technologies. Throat singing induce similar brain states or trance states. In the Japanese tradition the Shakahatchi is used similarly for trance induction and meditation. Your understanding is cursory. I would like this issue to be put forward for a peer review. Why are trances 'scary'? Your ill informed and irrational fear born of ignorance is what is terrifying. I take offence at your misinformed value judgement of me and referring to me as "insane". I am also disappointed that you are Wiki-kin. Inform yourself. Conduct a current literature review of publications and peer review literature before making rash and unfounded determinations. Your understanding of "trance" is limited and your assertions false. Read the literature. I appreciate your views on the trance induction and I will ensure in the future that when i reintroduce the information about trance induction that it is referenced immediately. Your ignorance on traditional fountain bowls shows how cursory your understanding of the subject matter is. B9 hummingbird hovering 06:22, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Singing bowl as vehicle for multiphonic trance induction[edit]

Convergent disciplies of neuroanthropology, ethnomusicology, electroencephalography, neurotheology and cognitive neuroscience are conducting research into the trance induction of altered states of consciousness (possibly engendering higher consciousness} resulting from neuron firing entrainment with these polyharmonics and multiphonics. Related research has been conducted into neural entraining from percussive polyrhythms. The timbre of traditional singing bowls and their polyrhythms and multiphonics are considered meditative and calminative and the harmony inducing effects of this potentially consciousness alterning tool are being explored by scientists, medical professionals and therapists.

Not done All of these appear to be pseudoscience, and not suitable for inclusion in this article. Most of these have already been listed above. MichaelMaggs (talk) 21:38, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Information for later inclusion in singing bowl trance induction section[edit]

<removed -- sorry, we can't duplicate copyright material without permission, even on talk pages. — Matt Crypto 21:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)> Source: http://www.soul-guidance.com/sbbook/sb06.htm (accessed: 3 December 2006) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by B9 hummingbird hovering (talkcontribs) 07:47, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Structure of article[edit]

It is important to have separate sections for new singing bowls and traditional ones. Their fabrication is different which also results in significant resonance differences. Fountain bowls as a subset of traditional bowls are a documented fact. This is not conjecture and is documented in the literature I have cited. Whomever keeps on reverting the changes I have implemented I invite discussion and dialogue on differences to mutually resolve issues. I have not as yet reinstated a section about trance induction but I will gather further information. I have seen it in the past in one of the Journal of Consciousness(?) articles in the The University of Melbourne Baillieu Library and comparable information in The State Library of Victoria. I appreciate that the Brain Wave and Singing Bowl article that I pasted above is not well referenced nor well written but that does not negate that there is a body of reputable research published in peer review literature. Please make edits to this new structure of the article but do not merge traditional bowls with new bowls nor delete the sentences on fountain bowls (this should be a subsection of traditional bowls in the future), nor the references. What is the justification for deleting references? B9 hummingbird hovering 00:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


B9 Hummingbird - stop the nonsense![edit]

Hey B9Hummingbird - please stop posting all of this weird esoteric information. Most people don't think of singing bowls in those terms and you are forcing your fringe, esoteric, conjectural and, in my opinion, misguided beliefs on this encyclopedia project. Most people think of singing bowls as nice sounding bells - humble instruments for meditation - not shamanic tools for trance induction. By the way - there is absolutely no real evidence that singing bowls were historically used for such purposes. There is a fringe community that uses them in the way you describe. Most people don't think of them like that at all. If you want to voice your esoteric and highly theoretical ideas, start your own website! This page is to explain simply what a singing bowl is - it's a place to introduce novices to the reality that they exist and to tell them simply what they are. Your ramblings will scare most people away, so please stop! This is not the place for you to mouth off about trance states. Give us all a break!

innappropriate content[edit]

Hummingbird - your content is innapropriate for this entry. If you wish to pass on your esoteric ideas, you should start your own website.

This post is for a simple definition of a singing bowl - it is the place to introduce people who want to learn the basic facts. This is an encyclopedia entry - not your personal soapbox.

You write paragraph after paragraph of highly dubious "facts." The books you site are conjectural and your ideas do not represent any reasonable consensus. If you want to spread these ideas, find a more appropriate forum or create a separate entry for "singing bowl trance" or whatever.

Retort to innappropriate content[edit]

Hummingbird - have you been to Nepal? Have you been to Tibet? All of your statements are regurgitated nonsense. I found no less than 15 completely false statements in your post. In case you don't know, the books about singing bowls are full of holes and very innacurate information. These are not reputable sources. Your "knowledge" is a collection of pseudo-mystical ideas that have little relation to reality. You have read some books and think you know the cultures. Well, I've been there many times and have spent years learning about the reality. I'm telling you that what you have written is very innacurate, conjectural, biased and has a distinctly western new-age bent. You are buying into western ideas about Asian culture. It's not factual - just a lot of theoretical mumbo jumbo. Until you write something factual, I will continue to replace your content.

Protection[edit]

I have temporarily protected this page to stop the edit war which has been going on for the last, um, month or so. Please discuss the issues here. Please respect the civility and no personal attacks policies; focus on arguments, not attacking the other person. Further, I would ask that people sign their comments on this page using four tildes: <tt>~~~~</tt>. — Matt Crypto 21:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

thank you for protecting 'singing bowl'[edit]

Thank you for protecting this post. The version that you chose to protect is the long standing text that was composed by leading experts on the subject and revised for several months before B9 Hummingbird began his assault on rationality. This individual has chosen to replace a straightforward and factual description about the object with his own highly subjective and conjectural theoretical ideas about the use of the object. I maintain that the usefullness of this post is to introduce people to the object with simple and factual statements, ie "a singing bowl is a type of bell" rather than B9's more controvertial approach of making claims like "a singing bowl is a tool for trance induction." Well, I've been working with singing bowls for years and I don't see them as a tool for trance or any other mystical mumbo jumbo. Let's keep it clear and simple. Let's inform people without scaring them away with high-brow new-age theory. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.2.161.89 (talk) 23:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

Singing bowl protection[edit]

I thank you for locking 'singing bowl' and acknowledge the page locked is not an endorsement of the version therein. Something needed to happen to progress this stonewall. What does this undisclosed editor think the feeling of wellbeing they experience when resonating the singing bowl is? What is the mechanism that initiates this state? Answers to these questions do have a place within this article. It is a form of meditative trance. Regardless, I have cited references and requested dialogue with this editor. The other editor has not endeavoured to enter into dialogue and has provided no references to support their assertions and consistency refuses to create a login for probity. The other editor also resorts to offensive assertions and mud-slinging in an effort to slander me and the content which is disrespectful and inappropriate. They are railroading and I assert that they are endeavouring to commercially profit from perpetuating ignorance. I would assert that a regular user of singing bowls would be more harmonious and inclusive in their relationships and would appreciate the value of difference and the importance of different voices in scholarship. At minimum, I would like a clear distinction between 'new singing bowls' and 'traditional' ones and the inclusion of the sentence on fountain bowls. The references cited should be included as they are reputable and no others have as yet been entered. Let the other editor provide additional references that support their claims or counter what has been stated. This difference adds to the interest of the article and is demonstrably inclusive of different perspectives which is true to the voice of neutrality that is of the guiding ethos of Wikipedia. The editor should be encouraged to create an account so true dialogue can be entertained. I have clearly stated that I am willing to work together to find a mutually agreeable resolution. May I ask how this situation is now to be progressed? B9 hummingbird hovering 02:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

what do you think about this powerb?[edit]

en-esed phonetics and word by word translation:

"dzban woden nosiw pooki uho penkwo" 
"vessel water cary until ear brake-down"

its usualy used in pl old tales. it mean "the pitcher hold up waters until the handle (ear shaped) was 'out of order'" ~ "until the time things was ok and afer not" is there any simmilar poverb or words usage ? Nasz 00:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC) the word dzban is simmilar to dzvon and the b<>v, o<>a are wel known sound change. Do the Singing bowl have any sense with connection with water eg to calibrate sound ?

Der Krug geht so lange zum Wasser, bis er bricht - German proverb, literal meaning is essentially the same. Metaphorical meaning: people tend to do what's in their habit, until one day they go too far and suffer some mishap. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 13:07, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Sharp division between old and new bowls[edit]

I'm reading this article for the first time, and learning about singing bowls for the first time, but my impression is that the article distinguishes perhaps a little too sharply between new and antique bowls, as if it were only antique bowls which produced warm harmonic overtones, and that new bowls were devoid of this quality. I want to say, "surely there is a difference between higher and lower quality new bowls" in which case, I would hope to hear more about what goes into a higher quality new bowl and how I might distinguish between the two. Antireconciler talk 17:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

So would I, but u think a reputable source is available?
B9 hummingbird hovering (talkcontribs) 15:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit]

This article currently sounds like an advertisement for antique bowls. There's no reason high-quality modern bowls would be musically inferior.

the fabrication method and usage of a suite of metals in alloy result in a sound quality that modern singing bowls do not have. It isn't just the antique factor it is their fabrication.

B9 hummingbird hovering (talkcontribs) 15:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Overtones only produceed by antique instruments??[edit]

It is my understanding that any bell with sufficient elasticity will produce a number of modes of standing vibration, all of which may occur simultaneously in varying amplitudes. I would like to see a definitive citation that refutes the claim that modern cast bowl are incapable of thus vibrating in multiple modes simultaneously. Certainly suspended bells that have been cast are capable of this multi-modal vibration (cf. http://www.ausbell.com/Polytone/polytone.html ). While I do not dispute that careful craftsmanship in the hammering process can have a profound effect on the vibrational modes that will occur, I am just not convinced that it was lost to the ancients. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.123.47.32 (talk) 19:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Antiques Overtones, and References[edit]

The Feinstein article cited in the references is clearly the work of a vendor who has no grasp of the physics of bells. While it is conceivable that a bell may have damping features applied to it's design that will allow only one mode of vibration, normally this is not the case as it requires highly specialized construction. Thus, assuming that the metal out of which the bell is made is sufficiently elastic, it will vibrate in several modes. The alloy components may shape the elasticity properties of a given bell, but they are not in and of themselves responsible for specific overtones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.123.47.32 (talk) 20:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Antiques Overtones, and References[edit]

The Feinstein article cited in the references is clearly the work of a vendor who has no grasp of the physics of bells. While it is conceivable that a bell may have damping features applied to it's design that will allow only one mode of vibration, normally this is not the case as it requires highly specialized construction. Thus, assuming that the metal out of which the bell is made is sufficiently elastic, it will vibrate in several modes. The alloy components may shape the elasticity properties of a given bell, but they are not in and of themselves responsible for specific overtones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.123.47.32 (talk) 20:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not speaking english properly and will not edit the article therefore, but want to add two points refering to the section "Origins, history and usage":

  • If some metals form an alloy this alloy has specifics of its own, not a combination of the different metals it is made up of. I'm pretty sure the following declaration is nonsense from a sientific point of view (emphasis mine): The overtones are a result of using an alloy consisting of multiple metals, each producing its own overtone. New bowls can also produce multiple harmonic overtones if they are high quality bronze, but many are made from a simpler alloy and produce only a principal tone and one harmonic overtone. I have heard a cast iron bowl with a very impressive rich tone - and that is a very simple alloy...
  • Additionally the term "aging process" in the following paragraph and the last sentence of the section "Antique singing bowls" needs a sientific explanation: The aging process greatly improves the tone and centuries old antiques produce an incredibly rich and beautiful sound. I'm pretty sure the beautifully sounding antique singing bowls were sounding equally rich at their producing time. You don't find lousy antique bowls today because as soon as their metal worth exceeded their beauty or practical worth as a container at any time in the past they were molten down.

88.130.211.201 (talk) 21:11, 19 July 2009 (UTC)ulan

Use in the Himalayas[edit]

I have always doubted whether there ever were singing bowls in the Himalayan regions. I think the excuse that the texts have yet to be discovered by Westerners is a bit of an exaggeration, seeing as we have so many "secret" texts out in the open, having been translated and published that if there were to be any such text on singing bowls, it would have been wide spread by now. I have never seen the use of a singing bowl in any Tibetan Buddhist center, rather, what I have seen is the reverse, that these instruments are used because they are provided, simply to mark the begining and ending of meditation sessions. It is quite clear to me that claims of these bowls in images are rather a reference to the begging bowls which are part of a monk's possesions. Jmlee369 (talk) 08:50, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Crystal singing bowls chapter[edit]

There are many interesting ideas in this one but no references cited! There are also many parts written in first person form. I might not disagree with things said in this chapter but this is no way of writing an encyclopedia. Ahabvihrea (talk) 21:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Harmonics and partials[edit]

The term "harmonic" is used rather loosely in the article. For example "High quality singing bowls produce a complex chord of harmonic overtones." From a musical acoustics point of view, this is incorrect, as the term "harmonic" refers to an overtone whose frequency is a simple integer multiple of a fundamental frequency. A series of harmonics is produced by resonators such as plucked strings and blown pipes, that make the customary sounds of melodic and harmonic music.

The sound of a singing bowl is interesting partly because its overtones (commonly called partials) are distinctly inharmonic. That is, their frequencies do not fall on exact integer ratios, but "produce a complex chord." The sounds of church bells tuned in the western style also have inharmonic partials, the most prominent of which is usually tuned to make a minor third interval with respect to the perceived fundamental pitch. This minor third sounds harmonious, if somewhat mournful, when a single bell is sounded, but rather clashing when a peal of bells is sounded, whose pitches are drawn from a major scale. It should also be noted that modern bell founding technology [[2]] has given rise to bells that can sound more than one distinct pitch at the same time. (Later note. www.ausbell.com.au was cited in a previous comment. Well worth a visit.)

I have to say here that one of my reasons for interest in singing bowls is that they may be almost unique amongst physical instruments in their capability of producing sustained inharmonic partials, when suitably "bowed" by stroking with a moistened leather-wrapped mallet. Perhaps the term "multiphonic" in the article is referring to this property. Having listened to the two sound clips (bowed and struck sounds), the inharmonic partials are clearly heard in the struck tone, but the bowed sound is more harmonic in nature, and the singing quality appears to arise from undulations in the strength of basically harmonic partials. Oh well.

Boynstye (talk) 00:27, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Western recording[edit]

The Low Anthem's album Oh My God, Charlie Darwin has been noted on US public radio as including a "Tibetan singing bowl" selected among its store-mates for having its fundamental on C. May deserve at least "and rarely in Western popular music".
--Jerzyt 22:31, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

function of differently shaped bottom[edit]

The bottom of my singing bowl is concave, the one of a friend is convex. Thus, the contact with the surface it is standing on is different for each type. Does anyone know more about this? Hpvpp (talk) 00:54, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

oncologists use singing bowls?[edit]

I removed oncologists from the list of medical professionals using singing bowls. It seems unlikely to me that singing bowls can be used to cure cancer, and there is no inline citation used to support this implication. I suppose singing bowls could be used to aid the psychological well being of cancer patients, but then the it probably wouldn't be oncologists using the bowls, and in any case, oncological uses are not mentioned anywhere in the body of the article to clarify what is meant.Wikimedes (talk) 19:31, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

It still says something similar in the lead... They are used to help treat cancer patients... But maybe treating is not necessarily oncology. Andrewa (talk) 14:45, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Hornbostel–Sachs[edit]

As the lead indicates, these are closer to a bell than a gong; The Hornbostel–Sachs classification of a singing bowl (aka bowl gong) seems to me to be 111.242 Bells – The vibration is weakest near the vertex, unlike suspended gongs which are generally 111.241 Gongs – The vibration is strongest near the vertex. Andrewa (talk) 14:45, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Native Names[edit]

This article does not contain the original names in the original languages. I can not find how "Rin Gong" is written in japanese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.185.168.119 (talk) 15:54, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Physics of the bowl?[edit]

Could someone add a picture demonstrating how the sound is forming within the bowl? It'd be cool, not to mention tell something what the bowl actually is, not just its useage and new-age babbling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.134.159.198 (talk) 19:23, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Possible hoax (November 2015)[edit]

Hello there,

This link claims that "singing bowls" are a Western invention (scroll down until "as it turns out..."). According to it, "academic consensus" (WP:WEASEL...) is that upside-down bells have been used for religious purposes but those are not bowls; bowls are a mere tourist trap.

That is a personal website from an anthropology PhD student in a relevant field so I would say it is quite plausible but not decent enough for a reliable source. I asked for the serious source it invokes.

If that info is confirmed then the article needs a major change since as it stands out it is a hoax. Even if such bowls were in fact used in (say) Japan but not in Tibet, "Tibetan singing bowls" needs an explanation.

Problem is that internet searches are clogged with pseudoscientific "natural healing" and such nonsense so I could not find a reliable source online. Anyone has some? I am not particularly impressed with the current references...

Tigraan (talk) 13:44, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Question is: do we need a reliable source to prove that something is a hoax? Isn't it the other way round? The people who claim that there is an old tradition of Tibetan singing bowls need to come up with at least some source proving that the bowls have a long tradition. A pointer to at least one old museum exhibit would be enough, I think, but I cannot even find that. Mlewan (talk) 14:35, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
@Mlewan: That is certainly true in principle (WP:BURDEN, etc.) but the problem is that whatever the status is, Tibetan singing bowls are a a notable subject - either as a notable antique tradition turned into "mystical healing" stuff or as a notable swindle to part gullible tourists from their money. Neither position has, in my view, enough support from adequate sources either way, and it is not reasonable to have a "maybe, maybe not" article. Maybe the alternative is outright deletion but that does not look satisfactory, either.
I had no answer at the resource exchange project for now. Tigraan (talk) 12:39, 19 November 2015 (UTC)


Are there anY Rs sating this is a hoax? without RS saying it is a hoax it would be undue to give it any prominence..Slatersteven (talk) 16:47, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

  • Maybe. The non-RS cited above cites back to Dreamworld Tibet: Western Illusions which is almost certainly a RS but I could not access it. On the other hand, there are no sources to say e.g. singing bowls are thought to go back in the Himalayas to the 10th-12th century AD (currently in the article) either. TigraanClick here to contact me 17:10, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Any unsourced claims should be removed.Slatersteven (talk) 17:38, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I would like to tackle this[edit]

On the basis of this article potentially being deleted, I would like to re-write it. But I want to finish the other two I am working on first. It is a notable subject, but I also agree that without reliable sources supporting claims to an ancient tradition, it is simply colluding with hearsay. I have placed a reconstruction tag at the head to buy me some time. Prolumbo (talk) 19:49, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

@Prolumbo: I fear that a rewrite, no matter how well-done, cannot hide the elephant in the room, namely that we are not sure whether this is or not an ancient tradition. I think it is not (see above) and I could rewrite it as an article about a hoax turned into alt-med, but that would not be honest without adequate sources (and it would potentially bring an edit war). Tigraan (talk) 13:01, 28 November 2015 (UTC)


@Tigraan:

Hello Tigraan. I don't see it so pessimistically. My view is that the historic origins of Singing Bowls, Chinese, Himalayan generally, and Tibetan specifically, is only one aspect of the subject. There is also the specific acoustics of the bowls, for which there is considerable scientific work, and their use in traditional music, as well as how they are made, all of which should be part of an article on singing bowls. The first extant reference to them in traditional texts, and a query regarding their original use, if that is not ascertainable, should suffice. There are lots of noteworthy subjects, the precise origin of which remain unknown. And 'hoax' is a rather pejorative term to use, because it implies deliberate foul play by one or more people, for which there is as little evidence as there is for the 'hoax' itself.

I am working on the article, and separating out the Origins issue as a separate section, because it has no bearing on the other aspects of the subject.

I don't see any danger at all of an edit war. It's just a case of making sure the origins section is an accurate reflection of the known facts. Enough 'wars' in the world right now, don't you agree? Let's not find reason for any more :)

For a possible rewrite, have a look at the article in other languages. My gut feeling is that the Japanese one is the most reliable one. It does not even mention Tibet, but it has a real photo of a real bowl in a real Japanese temple. The Dutch Wikipedia gives a few sources that may be of use as well. I guess one of the first actions would be to change the title of the article and remove "Tibetan". The title of the Japanese article is 鈴 (仏具) (Bell (Buddhist)). It does not even mention Tibet. The Chinese article is extremely, short, which leads me to believe that this kind of bell is not common in Mainland Chinese, Taiwanese or other Chinese Buddhism variants. That is to be verified, of course. Mlewan (talk) 20:17, 28 November 2015 (UTC)


Full Moon Healing Bowls?[edit]

I randomly bumped into this article from looking at bronze-related stuff, and while all the preceding sections looked objective and professional, this section read like a commercial to me, not to mention the pseudoscience its entirely composed of. --85.167.166.82 (talk) 12:36, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

@85.167.166.82: You are totally right. Someone edited it about a week ago to add that drivel, which probably survived due to the poor general state of the article. I just reverted it.
I would encourage you to act on the article yourself next time. Deleting the whole thing would not have been much harder than posting on the talk page (no criticism intended), and it is Wikipedia policy to make "bold" edits (even if later on they are reverted, i.e. cancelled). Tigraan (talk) 15:59, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

It's Hard to get to the Facts through all the Psycho-Babble[edit]

Nearly every book written about 'Tibetan Singing Bowls' is nonsense. At least Frank Perry admits that his findings come from direct personal experience, which is the motive from his recent book on the subject. Many of the early western vendors created 'magical' stories about them, which have been carried now for decades by people who fail to do the research. My research began in the early 1970's, in Nepal, before any of the shops there began selling them. A few years after my first field studies, the first shop opened on a corner near Durbar Square. Now there are about 1000 shops in Kathmandu Valley alone selling them. Technically, they are a bell, even though in some Asian cultures they are called 'resting gongs.' So what we call a Tibetan Singing Bowl, by technical definition, is a 'standing bell.' They did not originate in Tibet, more likely, and supported by the Tibetan academic Samten Karmay, around Assam India, within the 'blacksmith caste.' My research suggests, that the bronze bowl itself, originated in the Zagros Mountains, and not Persia as Feinstein alludes to. The antique bowls were made and sourced differently than new bowls. There’s no doubt that you can manufacture a high quality singing bowl today, but how are they different than some of the antiques? Some, not all, antique bowls were made from a different quality of raw material. Today, industrial copper and tin is used. In the past, it was dug from the ground and had up to 14 trace elements to it. But the one thing that is overlooked by everyone, is the content of the bowl itself. Different types of Copper were used, and the Himalayas have many types of Copper. You can’t make ‘bell metal’ without Copper. Some of the rarest types of Copper, are found throughout the entire Himalayan traverse. The old antique Himalayan bowls, which are known as ‘1%’ bowls in Nepal, were made from a very rare type of Copper, and when mixed with Tin, became one of the most resonant forms of bronze. This is the missing ‘link’ that all the so called experts have missed. When you take that alloy, and handcraft it with great quality and knowledge. You will have a singing bowl that is amazing, and you won’t find a new bowl today that can match it. The main reason, is that the rare type of Copper I mentioned has been mined out, for the most part. I wrote a short piece about the bowls at this link, if you care to read it. https://soundhealingforum.discussion.community/post/singing-bowls-separating-truth-from-myth-7858953 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 9waysacademia (talkcontribs) 17:59, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Some sources, maybe[edit]

Copying these from the deletion page. [3], [4] (meh), [5] [6]. Mostly not "in-universe" anyway. Two more: [7] [8]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:45, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, thanks, those are most useful. I've re-listed them below, ready to be checked. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 09:13, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
MichaelMaggs, thank you for your valiant efforts to find good sources for this article! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:34, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Checking sources[edit]

This section lists sources that I have checked at the British Library and elsewhere. I hope it will save others having to go over the same ground. MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:32, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Checked (useful)[edit]

Sources with useful information have already been added to the article, and aren't repeated here: see the article references. MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:32, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Checked at British Library (not usable in the article)[edit]

The following have been checked, mostly in hard copy, but don't contain anything suitable for inclusion in this article:

  • Reading Buddhist Art: An Illustrated Guide to Buddhist Signs and Symbols (2002), Meher McArthur
    • Brief mention of gongs and bells on p58, but nothing useful for this article. MichaelMaggs (talk) 12:37, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
  • The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism, Buswell & Lopez (eds), Princeton UP (2014).
    • So far as I can tell, this has nothing at all on standing bells, prayer bowls or singing bowls. Possibly standing bells are not of sufficient conceptual importance within Buddhism, even though their use seems ubiquitous. MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:48, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Encyclopedia of Buddhism, Keown & Prebish (eds), Routledge (2010).
    • Again, so far as I can tell, this has nothing at all either on standing bells, prayer bowls or singing bowls. MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:48, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oxford English Dictionary (online, 22 November 2017).
    • Neither 'standing bell' nor 'singing bowl' are listed in the dictionary. MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:28, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
  • The Singing Bowl, Malcolm Guite. London : Canterbury Press Norwich, 2013.
  • The traditional music of Japan, Kishibe Shigeo. Tokyo, Japan Foundation, 1982, 2nd edn.
    • Mentions only Tsuri-gane and Rei, neither of which are standing bells. MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:19, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Aspects of Tibetan Metallurgy, W.A Oddy and W Zwalf, British Museum Occasional Papers 1981, ISBN 0 86159 014 7.
    • Focuses on Tibetan statuary. No reference to bell or bowls. MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:19, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Tibetan singing bowls as useful vibroacoustic instruments in music therapy: a practical approach, Fernández, Elena; Partesotti, Elena. Nordic journal of music therapy. Volume 25 Supplement 1 (10th European Music Therapy Conference), pages 126-127, 2016.
    • Abstract only available at BL. Starts "We pretend to open a dialogue ..." and reaches the rather obvious conclusions that "The sound ... increases the self-perceived well-being of the participants" and that "further research is needed to understand the physical explanations of the vibrational phenomena in our bodies". I'm unsure whether this is intended as a joke. MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:29, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Working with Singing Bowls: a sacred journey, Andrew Lyddon. London, Polair Pub., 2007.
    • A very short book for the popular market. Not a reliable source for this article. MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:32, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
  • The Singing Bowl: Journeys through Inner Asia, Alistair Carr. Cloudburst Media, 2005
    • Recollections of the author's journey through the Mongolia region. The title is poetic: bowls are not actually discussed. MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:35, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Shamanism and Tantra in the Himalayas. Müller-Ebeling, Claudia, Christian Rätsch, Surendra Bahadur Shahi (2002). Trans. by Annabel Lee. Rochester, Vermont: Inner Traditions.
    • The authors state "When one is truly and authentically occupied with the consciousness-technology of shamanism, four basic truths are immediately comprehended: one must believe the unbelievable, imagine the unimaginable, think the unthinkable, and expect the unexpected. Only then can one slowly begin to understand". Examples: Shamans use SBs to contact disturbed spirits; the sound facilitates contact between the heavens and the underworld; the bowl's overtones and a subject's consciousness vibrate together, and so on. Not a reliable source. MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:19, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Gongs, Bells and Cymbals: the Archaeological Record in Maritime Asia from the Ninth to the Seventeenth Centuries. Arsenio Nicholas. Pub International Council for Traditional Music. Yearbook for Traditional Music, Vol 41 (2009), pp62-93.
    • Briefly mentions that prayer bells are found both in temple bas-relief and in excavated sites. Gives no further details but cites Hindu-Javanese Musical Instruments, Kunst, Jaap, second edition, 1968, the Hague, M. Nijhoff. I have checked that book, and it does not in fact make any reference at all to ancient standing bells: the ancient images and artefacts it discusses are "goblet-shaped cymbals". These are always held in the hand, and appear to be small cups which are played in pairs. There is also reference to a kemanak, which is also handheld. More recent standing bells are mentioned (with photographs) and I have added those to the text of the article. MichaelMaggs (talk) 12:13, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
  • An illustrated guide to Buddhism. Edited by Ian Harris, Helen Varley, Peter Connolly, and Stefania Travagnin. Wigston, Leicestershire : Southwater, [2011].
    • Too general. Nothing of interest for this article. MichaelMaggs (talk) 13:38, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
  • The History of Musical Instruments, Sachs, Curt, Norton, NY, 1940. MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:03, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
    • Not used in the article, as the information is very dated. It states that the resting bell or Chinese ch'ing was a "new type of instrument" in the Far East during the mediaeval period. Page 209 may well be the source of Blades' statement, discussed below, about the largest standing bell in the world. MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:23, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Acoustic resonators used in Buddhist Practices, R. Wijesiriwardana, International Buddhist conference Dec 2015 Anuradhapura Sri Lanka.
    • Conference paper headings, but not full text, online. Nothing useful for this article. MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:04, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

To be checked (not yet in article)[edit]

  • Tibetan singing bowls, Denis Terwagne and John W M Bush, Nonlinearity, Volume 24, Number 8, 1 July 2011, IOP Publishing Ltd & London Mathematical Society. This paper was the source for a BBC blog post with video (requires Flash). MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:26, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Not checked (not available at the British Library)[edit]

I don't have access to these. If anybody does, please check them. From their titles, several don't seem promising as reliable sources, though. MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:32, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

  • How to Heal with Singing Bowls: Traditional Tibetan Healing Methods Shrestha, Suren (2009). (Book and Audio CD). Sentient Publications. ISBN 978-1-59181-087-2. May be pseudoscience, but should be checked. MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:20, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
  • The Percussionist's Dictionary: Translations, Descriptions and Photographs of Persussion Instruments from Around the World. Adato, Joseph; Judy, George (1985). Alfred Music Publishing. ISBN 9781457493829. MichaelMaggs (talk) 21:30, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
  • The Mastery Book of Himalayan Singing Bowls, A Musical, Spiritual and Healing Perspective by Emile de Leon, 2012, ISBN 978-0-9882661-0-0, Temple Sounds Publishing. —PaleoNeonate – 01:14, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Bells and their music: with a recording of bell sounds. Wendell Westcott, GP Putnam's Sons, 1970. MichaelMaggs (talk) 23:12, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Personal websites and blogs (not usable in the article)[edit]

The following have very interesting material but as personal websites/blogs they are not considered reliable sources per WP:SELFPUBLISH:

"Claims"[edit]

I think some of the interest in singing bowls comes from that they are claimed to have all sorts of cool effects. Should we have a section for that, say, something similar to Kombucha#Health_claims? If so, can "in-universe" sources be used? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:52, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

It might be possible to include a brief mention of some of the pseudoscientific claims, assuming they are notable enough, but that would need to be done very carefully to comply with WP:FRINGE. I'd prefer to avoid a separate section, if we can, as the very existence of such a 'cool effects' section will be a magnet to some editors who want to pad this article with fringe theories. Let's get the reliably-sourced facts added first, then see where a mention of these theories might fit. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:58, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
Fair enough. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:42, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Page moved from Singing bowl to Standing bell[edit]

I've expanded the scope of this page so that we can talk about all varieties of this type of bell, and not only those that happen to be capable of 'singing' when friction is applied. It makes little sense to restrict an article to a particular type of sound-creation when in many cases a bell/bowl intended for striking is physically identical to one intended for singing. Most Buddhist bells are not and never have been created as friction idiophones, and if we restrict to 'singing' it's impossible to discuss the history. MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:42, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

BOLD and seems like a good idea. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:30, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
No objection. —PaleoNeonate – 09:27, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Source[edit]

Doesn´t seem too terrible: The Encyclopedia of Crystals, Herbs, and New Age Elements. At least not compared to Crystal Bliss: Attract Love. Feed Your Spirit. Manifest Your Dreams.

Short but why not:Taoism For Dummies Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:52, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Both added to list above. MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:10, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Claims of oldest and biggest[edit]

In his book Percussion Instruments and their History James Blades states that "The earliest dated resting bell is preserved in the Mission Inn Museum, Riverside, California. It is dated Japanese year 2, corresponding to the year AD 646". It seems that this claim may have come from an early museum catalogue; it is however doubted by Emily McEwan in her 2014 doctoral dissertation. She notes that "The supposed merits of the Mission Inn’s artifacts seemingly never ended and often veered into the realm of the ridiculous as [the catalogue writers] grasped to aggrandize the hotel’s collections". I have likewise not been able to find a reliable source to back up Blades' statement that "The largest existing [resting bell] is believed to be the instrument in the Chao-Ch'ing monastery at Hangchow". MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:54, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

This is interesting and if including the claim, we should likely also include this criticism... Since it is questionable, I agree with its removal for now. —PaleoNeonate – 11:16, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
Since neither claim seems at all reliable I'm not planning to add either. MichaelMaggs (talk) 13:36, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
Blades probably got his information on the largest bell from The History of Musical Instruments, Sachs, Curt, Norton, NY, 1940, page 209. But it's no longer reliable, if it ever was. MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:27, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

A better article now, I hope[edit]

OK, I've done pretty well as much as I can for now. I've tried to be guided by proper academic and historical sources, and have been able to eliminate website references (which are very often hopelessly unreliable) almost entirely. Sources looked at but not used are listed in the Checking sources section, above. I've been quite careful in attempting to comply with WP:V and WP:NOR and to reference every factual statement that could realistically be challenged. I hope you think it's an improvement. MichaelMaggs (talk) 23:32, 25 January 2018 (UTC)