Jump to content

Talk:Étienne Perier (governor)

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Good articleÉtienne Perier (governor) has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 10, 2021Guild of Copy EditorsCopyedited
October 10, 2021Good article nomineeListed
Current status: Good article


Use of surnames "de Perier" and "Perier de Salvert"

[edit]

Governor Perier was born as "Etienne Perier" son of Étienne Perier and Marie de Launay. The family surname was "Perier" but around the time of its ennoblement in 1726 and after, sometime Etienne Perier was called "de Perier" (by courtesy?) and his brother took the surname "Perier de Salverte", but there were no letters patent to legally authorize them to change their surname (legally required under the Ancien Régime in France to change a surname).

The source Grand Armorial de France volume 7, 1952 page 318 [1] :
"Cette famille était représentée au XVIIe siècle par Etienne Perier, né en 1644. anobli en 1726, marié à Delle de Launay qui lui donna entre autres : - 1° Etienne, Lt-Général des Armées Navales, Gouverneur de la Louisiane, G. Croix de St-L., allié à Dlle Le Chibelier, père de 2 fils morts s. a. ; - 2° Antoine-Alexis Perier de Salvert, Chef d'Escadre, Comm. de St-L., mort en 1757, qui laissa 2 fils : -a) Léonor-Jacques, Capitaine de Vaisseaux, Chr de St-L., s. p. ; - b) Louis-Alexis, Comm. de St-L., marié à Catherine de Gervais, d'où postérité éteinte au début du XXe siècle."
does not provide any information concerning the evolution of their name.

However this source Grand Armorial de France is not a reliable source on the Perier family, because the authors wrote that the extant "de Perier" family (not noble) came from a nephew of governor Perier, while it is proven that this is false, and we don't even know if this second family Perier (also from Le Havre) is really related to the first one as its claims without any proof.

See: the French article Famille de Perier and the end of Discussion Famille de Perier where this was already discuted, Regards, --Belyny (talk) 19:36, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Belyny, I think you're missing the point here. There are multiple reliable sources that use "de Perier," "Périer," "Perier," and "Perrier" for Étienne Perier. The Tome 5 shows multiple spellings of the surname; Tome 7 focuses on the "de Perier" spelling. The sole point of this footnote is to demonstrate and confirm from a single source that the man's name is rendered differently across sources. This aids readers in understanding that three hundred years after his relevance he isn't name consistently in scholarly work. Nothing here is stating definitively his descendants or anything else. If you have a better source for explaining why some contemporary scholarship renders his name as "de Perier," "Périer," "Perier," or "Perrier" please add it. Otherwise, the changes you're making here are not helpful to the reader. —Carter (talk) 21:40, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Carter,
  • I am not "missing the point" as you wrote : You can't use the Grand Armorial de France to write: "The family surname prior to enoblement in 1726 was Perier; however, at some point the particle de began to be used by the family" (it is not written in the source). You imply a personnal conclusion not stated by the source.
  • However, You can write that according to different sources Etienne Perier is called "Perier", "Périer" "de Perier" "Perrier" (with reliable sources to support each name).
  • I removed your modification not only because it is a wrong personnal analysis of the content of the sources, but also because we are in a discussion to find consensus on the content of this article. So, please do not make modifications without prior discussion and consensus in Talk page as I do.
When we have a consensus on all the content of the article, I propose a discussion and find a consensus about the title of this article which was Etienne Perier (Governor) before its modification without valid reason by a sockpuppet. Regards, --Belyny (talk) 18:20, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Belyny, Again, this isn't WP:OR. Tome 5 clearly links the variations of the name to this family. Tome 7 documents in the "de Perier" entry that the father's surname was simply "Perier". I'm okay dropping the "however at some point ..." part of the sentence. Citing instances of each spelling of the name seems overkill to me when Tome 5 clearly shows the names are linked. I'll also note you're moving the goalposts here. You originally expanded the footnote to drag in "de Salvert" and a discussion of the legality of use of "de". That was what I reverted because it's not germane to this article. —Carter (talk) 11:32, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Article title

[edit]

(copied from above) When we have a consensus on all the content of the article, I propose a discussion and find a consensus about the title of this article which was Etienne Perier (Governor) before its modification without valid reason by a sockpuppet. Regards, --Belyny (talk) 18:20, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really sure what the best article title is, both "de Perier" and "Perier" (often as "Périer") are used by reliable sources. That "Étienne Perier"/"Étienne Périer" is also the name of an actor and Pascal's nephew makes it hard to determine which spelling best fits WP:CRITERIA. That said, if you end up moving the article, please do the work of making sure redirects are minimized and that appropriate disambiguation pages are in place. In your edit warring on Wikidata around this you ended up with duplicated terms in both the primary and the alias fields. (Apologies, it looks like it was one of Mixamaxi's edits that created the duplication.) Also, the prior version was "Étienne Périer (governor)"; should we be using Périer throughout this article instead of Perier? —Carter (talk) 11:55, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Carter,

  • This article was created on January 29 2006 by Landrjm with the title "Etienne Perier (governor)" and the beginning of the article was : "Etienne Perier was the fifth governor of the Louisiana colony" [2]
Etienne Perier burial record décember 2 1726 Le Havre
Antoine Alexis Perier de Salvert burial record April 8 1757 Versailles
Etienne Perier signature

So unless your are opposed to this, I cancel the modifications of the sockpuppet Caux9/Savary34 and I restore the original title "Étienne Perier (Governor)" and in the text I restaure the text in "Étienne Perier (1687 – 1766), also known as Perier the Elder (French: Perier l'Aîné)".

Nota : I agree with you last version of the note "In sources, Perier's surname is variously rendered as Perier, Périer, or Perrier, both with and without the particle de". Regards, --Belyny (talk) 15:20, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Belyny, per WP:QUALIFIER The page should be "Étienne Perier (governor)" lowercase on governor. I'll leave it to you to fix that. You're also going to need to make sure the appropriate redirects are in place and that we aren't having existing links in other articles passing through a series of redirects to reach the article. —Carter (talk) 15:32, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also, both the sources you quote above say Périer, not Perier. The original title was "Étienne Périer (governor)" Please make sure we have this correct. —Carter (talk) 15:34, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Carter,
  • I’ll make the change for "governor" in lowercase.
  • I think "Perier" is more accurate than Périer (even if Haudrère and Vergé-Franceschi write "Périer") because in all original legal acts of the time it is written "Perier" and governor Perier himself signed "Perier". Regards, --Belyny (talk) 22:39, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, I suggest to modify the introduction as follows: Étienne Perier, (1687 - 1766), or Étienne de Perier, also known as Perier the Elder (French: Perier l'Aîné). Dozens of serious sources call him "de Perier" and not "Perier". Loris565 (talk) 13:05, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Birthplace

[edit]

In looking for sources on the family surname, I ran across this: Vergé-Franceschi, Michel (1991). "Les Normands officiers généraux de la Marine Royale aux XVIIe et XVIIIe siècles" [The Norman General Officers of the Royal Navy in the 17th and 18th Centuries]. Études Normandes (in French). 40 (3): 8. Retrieved July 19, 2021. Belyny, I believe you've stated that Vergé-Franceschi is a high quality, reliable source. He states:

Les nécessités du service de mer déplacent les officiers de la marine du Roi et leurs familles. Etienne Périer (1644–1726) est havrais. Corsaire en Levant, croissant en Méditerranée, il demeure havrais. Sa femme vit au Havre. Son fils aîné, Etienne II Périer (Le Havre 1687 – Morlaix 1766), chef d’escadre (1751), lieutenant général (1757) naît toujours en ce port dont la première pierre fut posée en 1517 par le vice-amiral Du Chillou, bisaïeul de Richelieu. Mais devenu officier des vaisseaux du Roi et capitaine du port à Dunkerque, Etienne I est amené à déménager. Son second fils, Antoine-Alexis Périer, dit Périer de Salvert (Dunkerque 1691 – Versailles 1757), chef d’escadre (1752) naît en la patrie de Jean Bart.

If this is accurate and unless there are other sources stating otherwise, we should amend Perier's birthplace and add a mention, sourced to this article, in the Early life section that the family moved from Le Havre to Dunkirk by 1691. —Carter (talk) 13:15, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. --Belyny (talk) 15:21, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I found his birth certificate (page 11): https://archives.mairie-brest.fr/4DCGI/Web_RegistreArtGG305/ILUMP30831. Etienne de Perier (born "Perier", he became "de Perier" when he was ennobled in 1726) was born in Brest on February 27, 1686. Loris565 (talk) 12:59, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 April 2022

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the requested title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 15:41, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Étienne Perier (governor) → Étienne de Perier – According to the most recent and complete dictionary of Louisiana governors, his name is Étienne de Perier, not Étienne Perier. See: Louisiana Governors : Rulers, Rascals, and Reformers (2010, page 25). "de Perier" is also used in The Louisiana Governors: From Iberville to Edwards. BBC440 (talk) 12:07, 15 April 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 04:40, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support per nomination, thus also obviating the need for the two-man Étienne Périer disambiguation page. Étienne Périer (director) can be moved to Étienne Périer, with a hatnote pointing to Étienne de Perier. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:25, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The article has been relatively stable at Étienne Perier (governor). Scholarly articles both in French and English are inconsistent in the styling of his name, spelling it as both Perier and Perrier, often with an acute accent on the first e, and both with and without the particle de. Searching The Historic New Orleans Collection's website, of the few mentions of the governor, only "Étienne Périer" appears. Looking at Google Books:
The Perrier spellings are less common, but Perier/Périer and de Perier/de Périer look pretty even.
Google Scholar finds nearly a third more citations as Périer/Perier than as de Périer/de Perier. There's nothing about Louisiana Governors: Rulers, Rascals, and Reformers that makes it definitive. The variations in his name are noted in the lede (originally as a footnote, but with a recent edit in the main text too) and a redirect exists to get people to the article. In the interest of preserving stability and recognizing that there is apparently not a definitive consensus among historians about how best to refer to him, the article should stay at the current location. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 19:15, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
One additional data point, in his Mémoires historiques sur la Louisiane, Perier's contemporary Dumont de Montigny refers to the governor only as Perier, not de Perier. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 18:23, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I looked at the sources on Google Books: indeed a larger number give "Perier" and not "de Perier". However, in such a situation, can the number of sources decide the question? I don't think so. What you have to look at is the quality of the sources. In this case, the vast majority of sources that give "Perier" only mention him, sometimes several times, but these sources only mention his name quickly.On the contrary, the two sources I give: Louisiana Governors Rulers Rascals and Reformers and Louisiana Governors from d'Iberville to Edwards (this book is not online but it constitutes with the first book one of the best references on the governors of Louisiana) clearly call him "de Perier" and not Perier.An additional element: the local press (https://64parishes.org/entry/etienne-de-perier) calls him "de Perier" and not Perier. See also https://www.lahistory.org/resources/dictionary-louisiana-biography/dictionary-louisiana-biography-p/ Regards BBC440 (talk) 12:07, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The use of each form appears in a variety of sources, both passing references and more detailed ones. Looking at the two books you point to, "de Perier" is used on the first reference with his prénom, but subsequent references in the article use only "Perier" (Cowan & McGuire, Dawson). 64 Parishes is drawing its text from the Dictionary of Louisiana Biography, which has "Perier, Etienne de" as the primary entry for him, but uses "Etienne Perier" in other entries. The gold standard would a VIAF or similar authority file entry for him; I'm not finding anything at La BnF, Library of Congress, DNB, or others. There is, however, a French National Archives prosopographic index of personal names in correspondence of French consuls that names him as "Périer (Étienne)", page 493. It's clear that his birthname was simply Perier/Périer; when and how "de" was used is much less clear with contemporary, scholarly, and other sources in both French and English showing both forms. Given that there's nothing definitive out there, in the interest of stability, keeping the current article name as it is (with the lede making clear the ambiguity about the use of "de") seems the proper solution. If Dawson and Cowan & McGuire are considered definitive, then the practice should be using "de" only when his full name is given. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 15:28, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As you say, let's put the particle only when we give his full name, i.e. in the title (Étienne de Perier) and in the introduction (Étienne de Perier, or Étienne Perier [with the lede about the ambiguity]). Given the lack of consensus among researchers, let's put "Étienne Perier" in the rest of the article. Do you agree ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by BBC440 (talk • contribs) 12:12, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, because the preponderance of sources lean towards Perier/Périer and the article has been stable at the current name. If the requested move goes forward (which I don't think should happen), then what you're suggested should be implemented. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 16:21, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Is it primary sources you want? Here is one in which he calls himself de Perier and not Perier: https://nouvelle-france.org/eng/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=40649 BBC440 (talk) 12:18, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The move on fr-wiki was made recently with very limited discussion. One of the few comments in the discussion questioned whether or not the article title should use Périer, based on the French National Archives index of personal names mentioned above. The earlier discussion about Perier v. Périer is further up the talk page. It isn't clear if he used Périer or Perier, but, for what it's worth, the accented form is more common in modern scholarship. All that said, it may well be that WP:ONEOTHER would lean towards a hatnote over a disambiguation page (at least until someone creates an article for Blaise Pascal's nephew ...). —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 15:28, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Full signature

[edit]
Signature of Étienne de Perier

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB05:8915:D300:C07D:1416:154E:6727 (talk) 15:49, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

I found the complete signature of the subject in which he gives the name "Estienne de Perier". Estienne is the old form of Etienne, but here he calleS himself "de Perier" with a particle and not simply "Perier". This supports the renaming of the article to "Etienne de Perier".

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Signature_de_%C3%89tienne_de_Perier_(1686-1766).png

Sincerely — Preceding unsigned comment added by HCC789 (talk • contribs) 15:38, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The source for that image isn't labeled clearly in commons and the link provided seems to be behind a firewall making it hard to assess where and when this image originates. The previous signature had similar issues, but there's not enough evidence either way to show which one is more definitive over the other. The fact remains that sources (modern and contemporary) are inconsistent in the use of "de" with a slight preponderance of sources not using it. The "de" form alternative and the variability in how his name is rendered are in the lede. I'm not seeing a compelling reason to rename the article. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 15:55, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Sir, I have added more information about the origin of this document and a new link so that you will not be bothered by this firewall. It seems to me that the most accurate signature is the one in which he gives his full name and not only his surname as in the previous one. In my opinion, this signature justifies the renaming of the page. Moreover, it is obvious that one must rely on this signature written by the subject himself rather than on sources published centuries later. You should also know that the French custom at that time was to sign with your name without the particle. --HCC789 (talk) 16:40, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Following that rationale, you would be seeking to rename the article "Estienne de Perier", which is a name that doesn't appear in modern scholarship regarding him. The additional sourcing you added shows it's from parish records from Lanriec covering 1666–1747. That doesn't really help understand how/why his signature appears (or whether it is his signature or his father's or someone else with whom he shared the name). —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 17:31, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, because the question of the first name and the patronymic are quite distinct. The first name Estienne must be written Etienne without s since its spelling has changed in the French language since a few hundred years. It is only old French that needs to be updated. On the contrary, the surname de Perier remains fixed in time. I will guide you more precisely to the signature. Step 1 : click on the link https://archives.concarneau.fr/4DCGI/Web_Custompage/index.shtm/ILUMP5061. Step 2 : click on "Registres numérisés" on the top left. Step 3 : click on the cross on the left of "Registres paroissiaux". Step 4 : click on "Lanriec". Step 5 : click on the document above (dimension GG12). Step 6 : go to the view n°748 thanks to the menu at the bottom and click on "see the view". The signature is on the left.

Finally, it is indeed the signature of the subject and not of another person. Why is this so? Because his father died in 1726, but the document dates from 1742, and because there is only one Etienne de Perier at that time (this name has been borne by only 3 people in history, one of whom is still alive). Even if there was another Etienne de Perier who would have left absolutely no trace of his existence, it is obvious that he would not have sponsored a member of a family to which he did not belong... To make it easier for you, I translate the document into English; Baptismal act The year 1742 the 27th day of October I solemnly baptized on the baptismal font of Lanriec Claude Rosalie de Salvert Perier born the same day at the castle of Moros, legitimate daughter of squire Antoine Alexis de Salvert Perier, captain of ships, and of Angelique Aimée Rosalie de Laduz de Vieuxchamps her father and mother, the godfather was squire Etienne de Perier, captain of ships, and miss Jeanne Claude de Laduz de Vieuxchamps who signed. Signed: Jeanne Claude Laduz de Vieuchant, Estienne de Perier, Rome de Pesron, Perier de Salvert, Louis Perier de Kerrichard, J. Menguy priest and rector of Lanriec. The fact that he was a captain and that he was the godfather of the daughter of his brother Antoine Alexis leaves absolutely no room for doubt. Etienne de Perier is the author of this signature which shows his real name. I therefore maintain my request for renaming to Étienne de Perier--HCC789 (talk) 18:03, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The page simply won't load for me. Thank you for providing the additional context that could not be gleaned from the image or the sourcing information provided with the file. Feel free to open another formal move discussion, but I still stand by the position that the article is fine at the current location based on it's long-standing stability at this title, the sourcing, and the satisfactory explanation in the lede for the discrepancies in his name. I'd also note that there's a history of sockpuppetry around this article (including in the most recent formal move request), so I'm not particularly willing to see the change without well-sourced evidence and a convincing argument (a single instance of a signature doesn't suffice in my opinion). —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 18:33, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Étienne_Perier_(governor)&oldid=1208800561"