Talk:Altarpiece of Pellegrino II

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Requested move 02 December 2013

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move per request as the apparent common name in English language reliable sources. This discussion is a good poster child for the framed language at WP:RM and WP:AT than when Google results are looked to as an indicator of commonality, Books and News Archive results should be defaulted to before turning to a web search, as they concentrate reliable sources. I note that Google Scholar as well provides a similar disparity (13:1) favoring the target title over the current title (N.B. Google News Archive is broken and will be for a number of months).--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:32, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Altarpiece of Pellegrinus II → Altarpiece of Pellegrino II – The name Pellegrino is more common in English both for the patriarch and his altarpiece. In Google Books, both tour guides and works on Italian art prefer it, sometimes even the Italian Pala di Pellegrino II. It is consistent with Pellegrino II of Aquileia. Relisted. BDD (talk) 19:52, 12 December 2013 (UTC) Srnec (talk) 12:49, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Support. The most common form used by English sources should be used. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:25, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:Commonname. The most common name in English sources is his Latin name Pellegrinus, not his Italian nor his German name Pilgrim. I have therefore proposed to move the newly created article Pellegrino II of Aquileia to Pellegrinus II of Aquileia instead. The reasons are:

WP:Commonname: medieval clerics generally go in the English WP by their Latin name wherever an English name does not exist. For example, the Popes go in those cases by their Latin names even though most Popes were Italian nationals.
Latin, not German or Italian dominates the written record in the Middle Ages, particularly in the case of clerics
Last, but not least his Latin name corresponds best to WP:Neutrality by establishing an equidistance between the German and Italian side of his identity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gun Powder Ma (talk • contribs) 19:19, 2 December 2013

Oppose: per commonname, ghits prefer the -us suffix by a ratio by 10vs1 [[1]][[2]].Alexikoua (talk) 21:05, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Those Google hits contain many Wikipedia mirrors. There is not a single GBook hit for "Altarpiece of Pellegrinus II". Srnec (talk) 22:35, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The Latin form of this name is "Peregrinus". The present form "Pellegrinus" is a variant on the vernacular "Pellegrino". It is used in some contemporary writings, but is not often used by modern English sources. See Talk:Pellegrino II of Aquileia#Requested move. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:35, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Google web search is badly contaminated with Wikipedia mirrors. The results of a Google book search as given at Talk:Pellegrino II of Aquileia#Requested move are relevant. They are:

Search Term	Unique results	English	German	Italian	Latin	Bosnian
"Pellegrino II" Aquileia	93	13	1	79
"Pilgrim II" Aquileia	36	1	35
"Peregrin II" Aquileia	11	1	9			1
"Pellegrinus II" Aquileia	8	3	3	1	1
"Peregrinus II" Aquileia	6	2	2		1	1
"Peregrine II" Aquileia (no results)

A search for the altarpiece on Google books gives:

Search Term	Unique results	English	German	Italian
"Pellegrino II" Altarpiece	32	20	5	7
"Pellegrinus II" Altarpiece	7	1	6
"Altarpiece of Pellegrinus II" (no results)

This patriarch is thus called "Pellegrino II" in most English language sources. The altarpiece is called:

Altarpiece of Pellegrino II (Let's Go: the Budget Guide to Italy)
Altar-piece of the Patriarch Pellegrino II (FMR: The Magazine of Franco Maria Ricci)
Pala di Pellegrino II (One Hundred & One Beautiful Small Towns of Italy; Venice, Venetia and the Dolomites; Northeast Italy)
Pala (altarpiece) named after Pellegrino II (Italy; The Rough Guide to Italy)
Altar piece of the Cathedral of Cividale (Friuli Venezia Giulia)

A case could perhaps be made for "Pala di Pellegrino II" as the article title, but the English form "Altarpiece of Pellegrino II" seems more in line with common usage on Wikipedia. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:19, 7 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.