Talk:Arnulf of Carinthia

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Untitled[edit]

So I get here on random pages, only to find out that there's a really inaccurate, badly titles stub. Also, I'm looking at this, and thinking, somebody who doesn't seem to understand that France and Germany did not exist in the middle ages as we now know them has gone and created pages and stubs for people as Kings of France, when they had cousins who were also kings, not of the West Franks, but of the East Franks. I beg you all -- unless you know what you are talking about (and not copying from a book which may be oversimplifying or telling a story from a particular POV) STOP IT!!! JHK

I think this person has a real problem! ... Susan K.

From what I can make out in trying to sort out the HRE lists Arnulf's rule was over before the end of 896 when Lambert took back the title. What's the accepted view of the situation? Eclecticology 23:50 Dec 15, 2002 (UTC)


Changed Normans -- that is, the particular group od Northmen who settled in Normandy and eventually ruled England and Sicily, to Northmen. There is a difference. JHK

I've changed back later term Carinthians to Karantanians since Carinthia at that time was named so. In fact Arnulf should be properly named Arnulf of Karantania, but I guess he was later named with the name of the province afterwards named Carinthia. Karantania was a state with a much larger territory settled with the ancestors of Slovenes and Carinthia was a province within this state. Jules can you please say what is wrong with abandoned sentences:

After his death his conception of a common Christian Europe remained. This was no more an idiom of a desputy of one mighty emperor as it was in the times of Charlemagne in 8th century, but it was a community of Christian nations.

This in a sense shows how Arnulf was different from other absolute rulers of that time, most probably also because of his Karantanian origins, since this Slovene state had a strong electing system for its dukes. Best regards. --XJamRastafire 09:28 30 May 2003 (UTC)

I'll change it back to Carinthian, because that's what we always say in English, and it's consistent with how every other such article I know of is built. We put the non-ENglish term at the top for searches, but keep the rest in ENglish. As for the rest, it just doesn't fit. There's no mention of his concept of a Christian EUrope earlier in the article. ALso, I think it's misleading in that this was typical of all the Carolingians, although I would put it differently so as not to make it sound like their main goal was conversion. The second sentence I just did not understand the first part (historians don't talk about thinks like idom much, except in the more normal sense) and the latter part isn't exactly true -- there wasn't much community at all, just fragmentation. Maybe parts can be re-written, or added to a more complete article, but it just didn't seem to fit in this brief version. take care, JHK
This is as it seems pretty hard nut. I did not quite catch your recorrections. Are you saying that Karantanian is the non-English term? I am surprised. In this way Karantania should be called simply Carinthia. I can't help if this term is not in English terminology (I think it should be). As I know Carinthia is just a later term probably came to English via the Latin doors. We Slovenes strictly distinguish between the predecessors of Slovenes -- Karantanians (Karantanci) and people from the province of Carinthia -- Carinthians (Korošci). Karantanian dukes were elected also from other provinces (in other words from all the then Slovenes), not just Carinthia although this should be further investigated. The similar ceremony was held for some period, I think, also in Sweden. Karantania most probably comes from a Slovene toponym "Gorostan" and Carinthia wrongly from Carni, Celtic people, who were settled on these territories for a short period and are not connected with Slovenes. So, what will prevail? And BTW, Jules, wellcome back to the front line :-) --XJamRastafire 15:36 30 May 2003 (UTC)
Thanks, XJam. Do you think it would be a problem to leave it till our quarter is over? Then I can do some checking in the library and see what most English-language sources use. I'll also see if I can check some Latin sources. AFAIK, though, we really make no differentiation. Maybe that's something we can make clearer on the general Karantanian/Carinthian pages? JHK

--- New edits -- unlinked Fulda Annals, but think if we do, we should link to Annales Fuldensis, since if people want to search for this source, they will only get the Reuter translation, while if in Latin, the can get multiple versions, perhaps even other translations. Also, is this the Count Ernst of the Eastern March? I will check AF again, but I thought he was a Popponid/RUpertiner, not from Carinthia?? JHK

Sorry Jules. At this time I just know for the name of the Count Ernest or as you've corrected "Ernst". But since source say his daughter was Karantanian he might be of that origin too. But we also have to be very careful here since Karantanians also allowed heirship after mother. Yes, we can leave as it is for now. --XJamRastafire 11:49 31 May 2003 (UTC)

That's neat about matrilineal descent! Do you know if inheritance also passed that way? Also, I'd be really interested in the sources -- are they secondary? primary? WHat language? (this is serious -- it's stuff that I might be able to use in my very delayed research!) Thanks! JHK


My understanding is that Karantania is the precise word (in English) for the ancient Slovenian nation of which you speak about. Carinthia, in English, refers to today's Austrian province of Kärnten. While highly likely (obvious?) that the name Karnten derives from Karantania, the terms are not equivalent. Karantania strictly refers to the ancient Slovenian state.

-- BT (a native English speaker of Slovenian descent and somebody with an immense amount of experience scavenging for documented info in English (and French) on Slovenia and Slovenians)

Karantanian mother ?[edit]

This is pure fantasy! 
Even if it were original research, WP would not be the place for it.

Not one of the various theories concerning Arnulf's mother [1] even remotely ventilates the idea that she might NOT have been of Bavarian descent.
Arnulf's mother had a Teutonic name - Liutswind or Litwinde, her father is said to have been one Bavarian count Ernst, perhaps the burgrave of Passau, as sources say. Where do the Slav Carantanians come in?
It hasn't even been proven that Arnulf's reported birthplace, the Mosaburch, was the one in Carinthia. - And the name Blatnograd for this Austrian Moosburg is a retrospective invention! There were several others Moosburg castles, e.g. one Mosapurc or Mosabyrga in Bavaria and one in today's Hungary ( Mosapurc or Blatnohrad, modern name: Zalavár, see Kocel), which lateron became part of Arnulf's realm. Besides, only a few miles from the Carinthian Moosburg was the Carlovingian Kaiserpfalz, the imperial palace, of Karnburg (Slovene: Krnski grad). Does it really seem likely that father Carloman afforded two expensive-to-keep fortresses so close to each other?

  1. ^ Mediaeval Genealogy: Liutswind: Read the theories (in German )

I have modified the incriminated statements, but I suggest the speculative passages about his mother's origin and about his youth be removed altogether.--Marschner (talk) 16:55, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Introductory Paragraph Incorrect[edit]

The article says, quote: "Arnulf of Carinthia (850 – 8 December 899) was the Carolingian King of East Francia[2] from 887, the disputed King of Italy from 894 and the disputed Holy Roman Emperor from 22 February 896 until his death at Regensburg, Bavaria."

This is literally impossible. Because the Empire wasn't known as 'holy' until Frederick II appended the word 'holy' to the title during his reign (1220-1250, aka almost 400 years after Arnulf). Leecharleswalker (talk) 14:20, 24 July 2013 (UTC)