Talk:Banker horse

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"Feral" vs. "wild"[edit]

There seems to be some confusion about the use of the terms "wild" and "feral" in the context of Banker horses.

To the best of my knowledge, a feral animal is one that was born to domesticated stock, but lives in the wild. If an animal is born to feral stock, it is a wild animal. Apparently, this is supported by the authors of The Encyclopedia of Mammals, as referred to in the WP article "feral": Feral#cite_note-2 Therefore, Banker horses are wild horses believed to be descended from feral horses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Allolex (talkcontribs) 20:07, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi Allolex. The article feral is, in a word, horrible. Poorly sourced, badly explained, etc. As far as I know referring to all animals, but definitely horses, a type is described as feral if it is a domesticated animal living in a state of non-domestication or if it is descended from such animals. This is described much more clearly in the Horse article, in the section on feral populations, and in the Feral horse article. It is also touched upon in the Mustang article. Hope this helps. Dana boomer (talk) 01:31, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Absolutely no question that these are feral animals. In the horse world, there is an extremely clear distinction between animals descended from domesticated stock and those that are not. In addition to the articles Dana mentioned, see also wild horse. There is only one extant true "wild" horse in the world, and that is the Przewalski's horse. Everything else is feral, even if they have had untamed ancestors for 400 years. We have some pretty good sourcing on this. Montanabw(talk) 23:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Update??[edit]

Some stuff going on in Congress relatd to management of these herds. Yohmom or someone may want to add a short update. Montanabw(talk) 22:58, 23 September 2010 (UTC) see: http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=16979

The current legislation perhaps worked into the Corolla Population[edit]

An attempt at addressing the current legislation on the Corolla population. I've added the links to the sources in the text. A very intriguing debate over land use and the application of the word feral. These sources (scroll through the massive text) captures the position of the FWS while Corolla Wild Horseare the opposition. The passage below requires a lot of work. I struggled with phrasing real-time events. I also see a potential for my bias (although I truly see both sides). No effort at citations - although I did provide the links to my sources and paraphrased adequately! I shutter to think what a copy/edit would do to my comma use! But maybe there is enough here to inspire someone to work it in the article; it is very relevant and most interesting! Also, this is one of my favorites - although I have some personal bias.... come on Yohmom --- make me proud!?--JimmyButler (talk) 00:25, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

  • The Currituck National Wildlife, located in the northern most region of North Carolina’s Outer Banks provides sanctuary for the Corolla Herd; which as of September 2010, consisted of 115 horses http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=16979 The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, a division of the Department of the Interior manages the herd with the assistance of The Corolla Wild Horse Fund, a nonprofit organization, created in 1989 to protect the horses from human interference. The need for protective intervention was sparked by the death of eleven Bankers, killed by cars on the newly constructed Highway 12. That same year, a herd of 60 horses was moved to a more remote part of the island, where they were fenced into 1,800 (7.28 km2; 2.81 sq mi) of combined federal and privately donated land. Corolla commissioners declared the site a feral horse sanctuary. In 1997, a Fish and Wildlife Service management plan was developed to reduce the number of horses to sixty by adopting out yearlings, both fillies and gelded colts and by implementing a contraceptive program. The target number of 60 was a compromise, designed to appease both horse advocates and those concerned with the negative impact grazing would have on the natural flora and fauna of the island, with little or no scientific bases http://www.corollawildhorses.com/Images/News/genetic-update-nov21.pdf The bill HR 5482 -- the Corolla Wild Horses Protection Act, http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-5482 or http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c111:./temp/~c111lBjqCZ was introduced June 8, 2010, in an effort to increase the herd size to 120 – 130 horse with a minimum population of 110. In addition, the bill authorized the introduction of mares from the Shackleford herd, located further south. The increase in number was prompted by the research of equine geneticist Dr Gus Cothran that showed a significant loss of genetic diversity within the herd. http://www.corollawildhorses.com/Images/News/genetic-diversity-analysis.pdf A larger herd could also reduce the risk that a single catastrophic event, such as a storm or disease, could wipe out the herd completely. The US Fish and Wildlife Service opposed HR 5482, holding the view that the Currituck National Wildlife Refuge was established to manage waterfowl, migratory birds, and endangered species; while wild horses, are defined as feral domestic animals. http://www.fws.gov/habitatconservation/Testimony_HR5331.pdf
Hmmm. Interesting parallels to some of the stunts the BLM is trying in the west with Mustangs, notably the Pryor Wild Horse refuge in Mt-Wyo. Drop the population below a level of sustainable genetic diversity, then claim it is of no historic value Definitely seems that there is a war against our wild/feral horses all over the place. Yohmom! Where are ya!! Montanabw(talk) 22:48, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
From what I can gather. The FWS in conjunction with NC State want to conduct an impact study. Ironically, they wish to see the effects of 60 horse population on the island to determine if it is sustainable. To do the study - they need to wipe out approximately 50 horses!!! The logic of seeing the effects of the 115 that are currently present seems lost on them. The Pro-horse group are adamant that the impact on the environment by the current population is negligible. There is also some very valuable property in play and as always $$$$. However, surely the tourism these horses generate must more than pay for their keep? I wonder if tourism (economic)impact has every been studied? I'll e-mail the kid, see if she has the time. My passionate sale of Wikipedia to the class is that it will always be more current than traditional encyclopedias - I think your suggestion to work in this info is a requirement for an article of FA status. I should have the students sign a contract for a life-time commitment to maintain their work to get the A! Is that legal? Also - this article seems so worthy of Article of the Day. I remember in one review it was described as a "pleasure to read". Our project's article Phagocytes made that honor - it was so over my head that it was painful to read! No bias here.--JimmyButler (talk) 23:44, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Ah! Real Estate! Yes, when the inexplicable occurs, follow the money. Sigh. The world of getting stuff on the main page is a little game of sitting around a particular page and waiting for a chance to pop in a nomination. Ask Dana boomer or Ealdgyth for help, both know how it works (and both have had a couple articles on the main page) And yes, I think a lifetime maintenance contract, preferably signed in blood, is a TERRIFIC idea. Maybe not legal, but who cares? LOL! Montanabw(talk) 02:21, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

New article[edit]

the lead editors on this article may want to add the update discussed here, or perhaps they can wait to see if the bill actually passes: http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=18080 Montanabw(talk) 19:02, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Another source : http://books.google.com/books?id=myQBSVVEhagC&lpg=PA38 Thanks --Tsaag Valren (talk) 14:07, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

In the wild[edit]

In some areas particularly in Europe people are unfamiliar with the mosquito plague and so there often the idea of troops spraying deet is a really shocking idea. Besides hunting for info about the island and scouts is bringing back amounts of confusing analogies in the way of "foam and spray" or "the most extreme salt spray", that are refering other matters. Could someone please fix the related sentences ? Thanks ia; --Askedonty (talk) 10:13, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Question of breed[edit]

Taking to talk now rather than later. Please do not make significant changes to this article without discussion. A "breed" of animal does not have to necessarily be selectively bred by humans. The landrace versus breed versus type question can be debated elsewhere rather than across multiple individual articles. Montanabw(talk) 02:26, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

@Montanabw: But that is what "breed" means in a context (like Wikipedia) where the distinction is recognized. No one paying attention to these debates doesn't understand by now that we've already demonstrated that "breed" and "landrace" as technical terms have had distinct meanings (since 1909 in academic discourse and 1935 at the latest in more general usage), regardless of the fact that some less reliable sources can be found that conflate everything they can think of into the word "breed" and use it as a vague catch-all to mean "everything below the subspecies level". We have at this point piles of reliable sources that such a usage is ambiguous and confusing. By way of analogy, Automobile has an operational definition in it, and that's how we use that word on Wikipedia. The fact that some sources can be found (as the lead there even says clearly) that use the term much more vaguely, e.g. to mean "any land vehicle with an engine", including dumptrucks and farm tractors, is not sufficient rationale for making the articles on those machines call them automobiles.

But. fair enough on the method-of-resolution issue. This will need to be settled eventually, but since the articles in question need way better sourcing, I don't have any objection to deferring what to do with this article and various others that are clearly landraces not breeds in any meaningful sense. As a technicality, I do have to note that FA status does not make an article uneditable, and certainly isn't reason to avoid fixing terminological errors, original research, or even ambiguous wording in it. In this case I don't have an objection to deferring that for a while, but it needs to be resolved soon, because the current text is unacceptably misleading.

Suggestion of the most likely solution: (Not calling it a proposal, because this isn't the place to resolve it, I'm just tossing the idea out for consideration in the interim.) The simplest way out of and forever away from this sort of dispute is the one already used at Long-haired domestic cat and various other articles on what are provable landraces not systematic breeds, but which some sources (e.g. show/competition organizations, or conservation groups, or just "X Breeds of the World" books) treat as if it were a breed or even stick a "breed" label on it for their own internal purposes. The general formula is something like this: The Cthulhonian foobeast is a landrace of foobeast found around the Arkham, Massachusetts area. ... While not a formal breed, the North American Foo Conservancy and the World Foobeast Association both include it in their lists of foobeast breeds (defined more broadly), and capitalize it as Cthulhonian Foobeast.

Features none of the following:

  • Confusion to the reader (which is the number one concern ever, period).
  • Misleading links to the Breed article from "breed" being used in a much more vague sense (common problem now, no need for it to ever happen again).
  • Falsification or ignoring of what reliable sources say the difference between a breed and landrace is (this is a major verifiability and neutrality problem presently).
  • Original research trying to "prove" a non-breed is a real breed by novel synthesis and reinterpretation of what the loose sources mean by "breed" (a constant problem now, even if not intentional).
  • Tempers flared because of attachment of some kind of value judgement or emotional weight to the word "breed" (the breed label won't be totally missing, just not misused).
  • Others given what they think is incentive to remove that label (it's limited meaning in a specific organizational context will be clear and sourced, with no false or even questionable claim being made).
  • Brain-melt by anyone unfamiliar with the term "landrace" (it'll be used correctly, linked correctly, and followed immediately by a term they may prefer).

This approach has been stable for several years at various cat and dog landrace articles. It can also be applied to the rare case of broad domestic type being, here and there, labeled a "breed" in some imprecise sources (where they are otherwise reliable enough that we don't want to just discard them).

A similar information presentation strategy works well when a single article covers both a landrace and a breed with the same name (the number of such articles is going to increase sharply the better-researched these articles become, because quite a large number of modern breeds are derived from same-named landraces. That they're not identical is obvious, e.g. by looking at a modern Siamese cat and what that breed originally looked like when developed from the landrace 4 or so human generations ago. Anyway, such a case might look something like this: The Cthulhonian Foobeast is a breed of foobeast native to the Arkham, Massachusetts area. ... The formal breed was developed in the 1990s from a local landrace of the same name (usually written Cthulhonian foobeast, without the capitalization), which remains extant with the breed. Miskatonic University maintains a free-breeding herd of landrace Chtulhonian foobeasts, and feral populations still live in nearby woodlands. Easy-peasy.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  06:06, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

  • I've heard all this before, and it's mostly your own OR. That said, if this article does not link to horse breed, it should. I will not speak for other animals, but for horses, it is clear that the definition of a "breed" is not "has an official registry." (Particularly when people can form a "registry" with animals from their own farm, see Moyle horse). You yourself found the Sponenberg work, and it is clear that horse landraces have distinct genetics and as such are "breeds" in the eyes of researchers. You confuse Domestic long-haired cat with a landrace, when it is a mongrel animal, akin to the grade horse. Montanabw(talk) 06:18, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed[edit]

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://web.archive.org/web/20060513021243/http://www.equinekingdom.com/breeds/light_horses/banker.htm. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and according to fair use may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:50, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

TFAR[edit]

Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/Banker horse --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:38, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

IS it really different from the Chincoteague/Assateague pony/horse?[edit]

All are around 13 hands (and near same weight from the article). I've heard the name Chincoteague for years..Never a "Banker". 80.5.219.60 (talk) 05:14, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

<Ooops> Sorry. I guess they are different. One is Virginia other North Carolina - But both are on 'bank islands'of the Atlantic. Gotta be the same range though??? 80.5.219.60 (talk) 05:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC) Different breeds indeed - The Ocracoke and Chincoteague Islands are far apart, roughly 300 miles - Just writing this because presumably there will be a million other fools like myself asking the same question. 80.5.219.60 (talk) 05:29, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Well plot does indeed thicken below from website :: http://www.thecolorfulchincoteague.com/outcrosshistory.html "A study published in 1991 titled Genetic Variation and its Management Applications in Eastern U.S. Feral Horses took samples from 60% of the Virginia herd in April 1987. The study found a close genetic resemblance between the ponies and two breeds primarily, the Paso Fino and the Shetland. A genetic resemblance was also found to the feral island herds of Cumberland Island and Ocracoke Island. The study found a higher level of genetic diversity in the herd compared to the other feral Atlantic herds which was possibly "the result of repeated introductions of horses to the island from a variety of sources."

So both the Banker Horse and Chincoteague/Assateague have Paso Fino - However I can find no mention of a Genetic Marker for the Chincoteague. Alas there is much more prior mismanagement of the Chincoteague/Assateague bloodlines. and from the Equus Survival Trust and Livestock Conservation webpages it reads like the effort is to preserve a quality line of the Banker Horse. 80.5.219.60 (talk) 05:52, 21 January 2016 (UTC)


No, what they all have are Colonial Spanish horse ancestry to some degree, mixed in varying amounts with whatever horses the locals had during the colonial era and ever since. This is also true of the Paso Fino... the horse became extinct in the Americas at the end of the Ice Age and so all horses in the Americas came from Europe -- the Spanish were the first to arrive -- and bring horses with them. There are other island-based horse bands on the east coast besides the Bankers and the Chincoteague horses, see, e.g. Sable Island Pony, Cumberland Island horse, etc. There are also several Spanish-descended horse breeds on the east coast mainland, such as the Marsh Tacky. Montanabw(talk) 18:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

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