Talk:Canadian soccer league system

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Classification[edit]

I'm not sure with your pyramid. The Montreal Impact club will open a farm team in the Canadian Soccer League for the 2007 season, in Trois-Rivières. Sould the CSL be considerated as a 3 division league, like the USL-D3?. You also forgot to a level for the provincials competitions. Fralambert 01:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree and think the CSL should be dropped down to Div. III as well, seeing as Montreal's reserve side is in it. steventity 14:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I've dropped the CSL to div 3, as it seems like everyone is of one mind on the issue, and I don't think the CSL carries very much national notability anyways. Additionally, I've added descriptions of how many Canadian clubs are in each division, and I've removed USL-2, as they have never had a Canadian team in their history. (Whether or not Toronto Croatia and the Serbian White Eagles count as Canadian despite not having any Canadian players, though, is up for debate.) DamionOWA 19:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Should the PCSL be lumped with USL-PDL at Level 4? Since all the PCSL teams are from British Columbia, and the name itself (Pacific Coast) suggests that it is a regional league, should that not be put aside with other provincial leagues (e.g. Ontario's).Avman89 (talk) 05:06, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree, the CSL, PCSL and USL-PDL should probably be at the same level, level 3. I would make the change but I feel that I would mess up the Pyramid. sorry! --Ceezmad (talk) 02:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Was this fair and accurate?[edit]

Greetings,

I recently made a rather length post about Canadian soccer at Talk:American_Soccer_Pyramid#Globalise_Tag. If someone more knowledgable in the subject could critique whether or not my post was a fair and accurate assesment, I would very much appreciate it. Mahalo. Gecko G (talk) 12:04, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

PCSL = PDL?[edit]

Aren't both the Pacific Coast Soccer League and the USL's Premier Development League considered to be on about the same level? Other articles seem to suggest this. AND... the Vancouver Whitecaps residency team moved to the PDL from the PCSL, and this after they were dominating the PCSL. The weren't taking a demotion. Greg Salter (talk) 17:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree. The PCSL and PDL should be on the same level. An argument could, in fact, be made to have the CSL, PCSL, and PDL all lumped together as level three. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.54.164 (talk) 16:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Use of the term "pyramid"[edit]

I've started a discussion at Talk:American soccer pyramid#The term "pyramid" regarding the use of this term. Please add any comments there. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:16, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

5th Level[edit]

Should a 5th level be added to note the leagues that lead to the Challenge Cup? --Coppercanuck (talk) 17:13, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

women soccer[edit]

How about a pyramid for women soccer?

I know that there a no Canadian teams in the WSP or the W-League but there may be some in the future. How about having those two as levels 1-2 and then any regional Canadian league as level 3? --Ceezmad (talk) 02:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I started one, I do not know what to do regarding the WPSL, in the USA we have it as the same level as the W-League (I think that the difference is College players). Feel free to edit the pyramid, there are many Canadian teams in the WPSL. --Ceezmad (talk) 02:49, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
ok the WPSL does not have any Canadian teams, so we should be ok. --Ceezmad (talk) 16:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

How should we account for the Women's Division of L1O? As a semi-professional league, my gut's telling me it either shares D2 with the W-League, or would be a D2.5 between W-League and PCSL (which is amateur). Gopherbashi (talk) 13:34, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I think we should use the second option, and slip L1O Women in between W-League and PCSL as a Div 3 League (pushing PCSL down to 4th tier, and Jubilee Trophy down to 5th). I figure this is the best option in the absence of any CSA-published pyramid, as this will keep the alignment the same between the men's and women's leagues. Another option would be to remove the tiers for the women's side entirely, and simply have three rows indicating professional, semi-pro, and amateur leagues. I'll hold off until early next week before making any changes to let people comment if they wish. Gopherbashi (talk) 13:43, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
I've always been confused about the PCSL. On the men's side they do play in the provincial cup leading to the Challenge Trophy. Is the women's side the same? I'd vote for the push as you describe. --Coppercanuck (talk) 20:37, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, it appears the decision has been simplified somewhat - there's no PCSL women's division running this year. [1] At least that explains why it was so tough to find standings or a schedule for that. I guess we can simply remove PCSL entirely and put L1O in its place as Div 3? --Gopherbashi (talk) 13:31, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Two pieces of news so far in the off-season: 1. the W-League is shutting down and 2. the PCSL is restarting its Women's Division. My suggestion would be to erase W-League from D2, keep L1O at D3, add PCSL as D4, and move the Jubilee/amateurs down to D5. In the absence of a formal women's pyramid from the CSA, I think this would make the most sense and would simplify things by bringing it into line with the men's pyramid. -Gopherbashi (talk) 03:00, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Adding this change as there was no further discussion. -Gopherbashi (talk) 02:39, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

The women's pyramid is looking ugly these days - we're left with the NWSL, L1O Women's, and the various competitions that lead to the Jubilee. There's not exactly a formal designation from the CSA on this, so I'm wondering if it's more accurate if we describe the levels of play rather than just a numbering system. If more leagues arise in the future, we can simply add columns rather than trying to arbitrarily compare them to each other. -Gopherbashi (talk) 20:39, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Level Leagues or Divisions
Pro

National Women's Soccer League (NWSL)
- 10 teams, including 0 in Canada -

Semi-pro

League1 Ontario (L1O)
- 9 teams, all in Canada -

Amateur

The Jubilee Trophy

Provincial leagues formally above city leagues???[edit]

Is this just an assumption on people's parts? I mean, are these leagues actually PART of the pyramid or not? I suspect not. And even if they were, I'd want proof that the Nova Scotia provincial league (drawing from a population of less than a million people) is higher than the Vancouver league (drawing from a population of 2.5 million people). Unless anyone can provide a formal independent reference for these leagues being in the pyramid (I googled tonight and can't find anything), I'm going to remove them as potential misinformation. Greg Salter (talk) 08:19, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I've removed both the city and provincial levels, as I have not been able to find anything out there that places them within a recognized hierarchy of soccer leagues in Canada. Please provide solid references if you think this should be reverted. Greg Salter (talk) 21:20, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I believe that the Ontario League is real see [[2]] I do not know about the other levels. --Ceezmad (talk) 22:29, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
The 5th level is valid as the clubs involved play down to a National Championship, Canadian National Challenge Cup. The issue runs deep because each province determines their representative differently. Most are cup competitions after a league play. These are all amateur teams. -- Coppercanuck (talk) 02:15, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Canada football seems to be a colony of the US football.[edit]

Why is the Canada pyramid constructed in the same manner as the US pyramid? That does not make any sense. Canada only has one team in the MLS that cannot qualify through it to the continental competitions nor being considered as the Canadian champion. So how is that the top Canadian league? The champion of Canada currently is being determined by the play-off tournament of all Canadian-based clubs that compete at the US professional leagues, thus making all professional leagues of the United States the top competition for Canada that serve for the Canadian Championship. There also seemed to be establishing the Canadian National League which yet is not popular amongst the Canadian elite clubs. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 13:14, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

If you'll notice, almost all professional sports in Canada involve playing in joint US/Canadian leagues (baseball, hockey, basketball, soccer), with the exception being the Canadian Football League. The simple fact is that Canada has a small population (34 million) spread over the 2nd largest country in the world, and so while national soccer leagues have been attempted (the original CSL being the best example), travel costs inevitably doom them. If soccer was more popular in North America it would obviously help with a national league in Canada, but there is only 3 professional teams in Canada, and you're not going to get a national league out of that. Heck, even the huge United States only has 24 professional soccer teams in the whole country. Soccer's popularity is rising, but hockey, (gridiron) football, and baseball are far more popular spectator sports here. Greg Salter (talk) 14:20, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
That doesn't answer the question. The CSF made no statement about the rebirth of the NASL which was spearheaded by Montreal and Vancouver. It has been silent about Toronto's involvement in the MLS. Does the fact that these teams play in USSF-sanctioned leagues have any relevance on the Canadian soccer pyramid since there is no official involvement or sanctioning by the CSF? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:02, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

FC London in USL Development League[edit]

Forest City London is in the USL Development League, but they are not listed here. They are in the Great Lakes division. Unfortunately I don't know how to add them properly myself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.20.47.158 (talk) 16:53, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

OVERLINK[edit]

This does not need to be linked to Canada because no one is coming to this article and immediately wanting to click through to the article about the country. Why should it be linked? Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:53, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

See WP:OVERLINK Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:53, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I know WP:OVERLINK quite well, thank you. I follow it all the time. But I've also been against applying OVERLINK unthinkingly for years. I became keenly aware of it when an editor tried to remove the link to New York City from the article on the New York City Subway, a poor decision that strips all context from an article because an editor assumes that every reader already has pre-existing knowledge. This is the same thing. To not include a link to the country being discussed is silly. Not everyone who comes to this article knows anything about Canada. It's pure systemic bias to assume otherwise. A reader can easily use that, single, definitional, one word link to get relevant information on country population or area, both of which are key to the hows and whys of Canada's soccer league system (especially why it's top two leagues are shared with the US). For those who don't need to get that info, they can just not click the link. No one is forcing them to. But to force readers to have to use the search box makes the encyclopedia less useful for our readers. That I oppose. oknazevad (talk) 05:20, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

New CSL status?[edit]

So the CSL isn't sanctioned anymore, but not only it still exists, it has high hopes for the future. They have a new website, the new season starts this weekend, and they have a collaboration agreement in place with a new American league (American Soccer League) who initially will be sanctioned as Level 4 in the USA. What is the best way to deal with this situation in this article? Should we add the CSL in the list of leagues, even if a level lower than before (level 4), given that's going to be the level of its partner league in the States? Or should we leave this pyramid as if the CSL doesn't exist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.112.24.100 (talk) 21:50, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

With reliable sources that indicate that neither league is recognized by FIFA or the nationally recognized sanctioning bodies. Do not use made-up terms such as "private league" and don't try to make it seem that the league is anything it's not. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:54, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Div 3 Cup[edit]

Added a link for the L1O-PLSQ div 3 cup. As those leagues are the only div 3 leagues entirely in Canada, it seemed appropriate to put here.
Gopherbashi (talk) 16:24, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Pyramid Consolidation[edit]

The current pyramid is getting messy with all the teams being listed, and with L1O growing to 16 teams, I feel that it's only going to get worse. I'd like to mimic the English article where only the number of teams is listed, rather than listing each team individually - at least for the lower divisions. Since we've only got five teams in the professional leagues, I'd be fine with leaving them.

Tier

Leagues/divisions

1

Major League Soccer (MLS)
- 20 teams, including 3 in Canada -

2

North American Soccer League (NASL)
- 13 teams, including 2 in Canada -

3

United Soccer League (USL)
- 28 clubs, including 3 in Canada -

League1 Ontario (L1O)
- 16 clubs, all in Canada -

Première Ligue de soccer du Québec (PLSQ)
- 7 clubs, all in Canada -

4

Premier Development League (PDL)
- 62 clubs, including 5 in Canada -

Pacific Coast Soccer League (PCSL)
- 9 clubs, all in Canada -

5

The Challenge Trophy
- 12 Provincial/Territorial associations -

The final result would look like this. -Gopherbashi (talk) 21:35, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I love it. Most of the teams are not notable so there's little reason to list them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:05, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Added as described, except changed clubs to teams where applicable. Also cleaned up the women's pyramid accordingly. -Gopherbashi (talk) 14:07, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Division 4[edit]

What is our criteria for Div 4 leagues these days? I'm not aware of any formal Div 4 designations from the CSA, and I'm not sure what exactly separates PCSL from other top provincial leagues such as LSEQ or the Ontario Soccer League. -Gopherbashi (talk) 17:30, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

United Women's Soccer[edit]

I've removed United Women's Soccer from this page due to the refusal of the Canadian Soccer Association to sanction the Laval Cometes and the Quebec Dynamo for play in that league for the upcoming season. [3] [4] UWS will therefore have zero Canadian teams and has no place in the Canadian pyramid. -Gopherbashi (talk) 14:39, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

PCSL[edit]

I was wondering what you thought about removing the PCSL as a 4th-division soccer league in Canada. They're a BC-only six-team league this year, aren't part of the BC provincial cup, and since the CSA doesn't formally recognise anything below third division, I don't know what makes them superior to other top provincial leagues anymore (or even other BC leagues for that matter).

I feel like it got added back in the day when it was a cross-border league and has just stuck around there since as there was never a formal 4th division designation to revoke. I'd like to remove it to more accurate reflect reality if this is the case, but no one responded on the talk page. -Gopherbashi (talk) 18:11, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

I moved this from my talk page.
The article, Pacific Coast Soccer League, indicates it's third-tier, but this article correctly indicates fourth. I'm in favour of removing the fourth tier as it is amateur, but the problem is it's at the same level as Premier Development League, which is a bit more complicated. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:36, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
I suppose we could separate divs 1-3 from 4th and below, making it more explicit that division 4 and below are informal and not due to any official designation. Though that still wouldn't address how to display PCSL in relation to other provincial leagues. -Gopherbashi (talk) 18:30, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Pyramid Separation[edit]

A bit radical, but I wonder if it would be more useful to separate the American and Canadian pyramids (or lack thereof) in our current setup. The current table is basically just a rehash of the American one, with L1O and PLSQ tacked on, and because of this I'm not sure it does a good job of showing what the Canadian pyramid actually is (or isn't).

For example, I don't think anyone would claim that L1O or PLSQ is at the same level play-wise as USL. Our current graph may give this false illusion by putting them on the same row - something that only occurs because the three leagues happen to all be designated as division three by two different countries (with two different standards).

Since all of our pro teams currently play in American leagues, I think it makes sense to include them somehow (they're still Canadian soccer, after all) but separated from the rest of the Canadian "pyramid" to show the difference.

It leaves the Canadian side of the pyramid looking quite bare, but that's the harsh reality that should properly be reflected in an article about the Canadian soccer pyramid.

(I also added a designation disclaimer that Walter Görlitz (talk · contribs) and I discussed in the PCSL section above, and replaced the full SA names with their provincial abbreviations to clean this up a bit). Gopherbashi (talk) 18:44, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Sanctioned by the CSA

Tier

Sanctioned by the USSF

(No leagues sanctioned at this level)

1

Major League Soccer (MLS)
- 20 teams, including 3 in Canada -

(No leagues sanctioned at this level)

2

North American Soccer League (NASL)
- 10 teams, including 1 in Canada -

United Soccer League (USL)
- 30 teams, including 3 in Canada -

League1 Ontario (L1O)
- 16 teams, all in Canada -

Première Ligue de soccer du Québec (PLSQ)
- 7 teams, all in Canada -

3

(No leagues sanctioned at this level)

Positions below this point are approximate and are not formally designated by the Canadian Soccer Association

The Challenge Trophy
- 12 provincial/territorial associations -

4

Premier Development League (PDL)
- 66 teams, including 6 in Canada -

Also, should the Canadian Premier League ever get up and running, this format will also make it clearer as to where that league sits relative to everything else. -Gopherbashi (talk) 18:46, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

That makes sense, but you would have to drop the flags. I would list Ottawa, TFC2 and WFC2 in the USL portion (for Ottawa's sake). I can understand Yukon, NWT and PEI not having league articles, but New Brunswick not having one is odd. Do they not have any organized leagues in Newfoundland and Labrador or Nunavut?
Also, I would change the headings to Leagues sanctioned by CSA and Leagues sanctioned by USSF and change the prose from "(No league exists) "No leagues sanctioned at this level".
And it should be "territorial", rather than capitalized. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:17, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Edited as suggested. Do we frown on flags in articles? Makes it clearer in my mind.
Not sure about the New Brunswick situation - the original didn't have a link and I just condensed what we had already. -Gopherbashi (talk) 02:40, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
It looks better, thanks. MOS:FLAG is the section in the manual of style. Prose should be used rather than graphics, but they're not inappropriate. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:53, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
It also occurs to me that the level-four leagues are sanctioned by the individual provincial bodies. Not sure what the case is in the territories. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:57, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

BC Div 3 League[edit]

Nothing to add in here until it happens, but it looks like BC is finally going to start their fabled D3 league in 2018 or 2019:
https://www.bcsoccer.net/news/post/bc-soccer-enhancing-adult-soccer-in-british-columbia?platform=hootsuite
-Gopherbashi (talk) 03:08, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Just penciling in a potential 2018 pyramid so we can adjust ahead of time if needed. -Gopherbashi (talk) 12:03, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Sanctioned by the CSA

Tier

Sanctioned by the USSF

Canadian Premier League (CPL)
- # teams, all in Canada -

  • Team Name
  • Team Name
  • Team Name
  • Team Name
  • Team Name
  • Team Name

1

Major League Soccer (MLS)
- 20 teams, including 3 in Canada -

(No leagues sanctioned at this level)

2

North American Soccer League (NASL)
- 10 teams, including 1 in Canada -

United Soccer League (USL)
- 30 teams, including 3 in Canada -

BC Regional Tier 3 (BCRT3)
- # teams, all in Canada -

League1 Ontario (L1O)
- 16 teams, all in Canada -

Première Ligue de soccer du Québec (PLSQ)
- 7 teams, all in Canada -

3

(No leagues sanctioned at this level)

Positions below this point are approximate and are not formally designated by the Canadian Soccer Association

The Challenge Trophy
- 12 provincial/territorial associations -

4

Premier Development League (PDL)
- 66 teams, including 6 in Canada -

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