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Requested move 22 December 2020

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved to the original title, reversing an undiscussed move in December. (non-admin closure) Xyl 54 (talk) 03:25, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Éliane Tillieux → Eliane Tillieux – I started creating this page at "Éliane Tillieux", since that is the most common spelling of the name "Eliane" in French, but realised in the process of creation that not a single reliable source uses a spelling with an accent on the E (all give "Eliane Tillieux" – even sources that have no problem putting an accent on other capital E's, such as "Égalité"; the subject's own website alsoconsistently uses "Eliane"). I therefore turned "Éliane Tillieux" into a redirect to "Eliane Tillieux", explaining why, and put the article there at "Eliane". Since then, somebody has moved the article over the redirect, despite there still being no reliable sources that give the name with an accent on the E. Andreas Philopater (talk) 22:37, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, per new source found by In ictu oculi. —Brigade Piron (talk) 14:27, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nomination and Brigade Piron. Eliane Tillieux is not French, but a French-speaking Belgian. In Wallonia, name accents are not always placed in the same manner as in France. The majority of Wikipedia entries for those named "Eliane" do not use an accent over the uppercase "E". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:01, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the vast majority of entries for people from French-speaking countries are spelled with an "É".--Extended Cut (talk) 19:51, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I may obviously be wrong, but I have worked on Belgian articles for many years now and have yet to come across any such Walloon convention that Roman Spinner mentions. There are some names which are more flexible, obviously. "Emile" vs "Émile" being one. —Brigade Piron (talk) 14:27, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Roman Spinner: Roman, given that (1) WP:FRMOS clearly says that É must be retained, look at what it says under the table, (2) all en.wp articles retain the accent, (3) all full-sources provided by nom contrdadict the RM proposal, and (4) there is no such Walloon convention, why are you supporting putting this article at odds with all other French bios and geos? There's no point having MOS if we are going to disregard it and scrabble around following html settings that vary from the top of a web page to the middle. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:41, 31 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@In ictu oculi:, this request for a restoration of the article's original main title header is not a challenge to WP:FRMOS, but a confirmation of an exception in this specific case. English Wikipedia contains numerous such exceptions — the Polish surname Brzeziński uses a diacritic, such as that in the name of Polish diplomat Tadeusz Brzeziński. However, his son, Zbigniew Brzezinski, who was born and raised in Poland, subsequently dropped the diacritic from his own surname and Zbigniew's children and grandchildren have continued the use of the surname without the diacritic. Initial letters in English Wikipedia given names and surnames are uppercase, but an exception is made in the case of bell hooks.
Ultimately, standard guidelines do indeed make exceptions where such exceptions are supported by key sources and, since Eliane Tillieux clearly does not use an accent atop the uppercase "E" in her own name, English Wikipedia should not force an accent onto her name simply because other French speakers use accents within their names. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:03, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, time to call Wikipedia:No climbing the Reichstag dressed as Spider-Man
(1) you have zero evidence that this French-speaking Éliane wants to be treated uniquely either in the Belgian press (which she isn't) or here.
(2) even if she did (which is just some Wikipedia editors unable to discern font-crush on html), we still wouldn't listen because Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/France_and_French-related_articles#Accents_and_ligatures
(3) No Admin is going to close this RM as "moved" contrary to WP:FRMOS when the WP:RS Belgian press spells her the same as any other Francophone politician with an É.
Assez In ictu oculi (talk) 14:34, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That is good advice, more applicable to this discussion than Wikipedia:Don't stuff beans up your nose.
1) I base my support for Éliane Tillieux → Eliane Tillieux on evidence of her own website in which she consistently uses "Eliane", rather than "Éliane", whether at the start or in the middle of a sentence, while she also uses uppercase accented "É" in "Élue...". She likewise does not accent the "E" on her Twitter account, on her Facebook page or her Instagram page. For those who require additional evidence, here is the official website from her native Namur, here is Radio-télévision belge de la Communauté française (RTBF), here is her LinkedIn page and here is her Dun & Bradstreet page. There is certainly much more than zero evidence.
2) We would indeed listen, because Wikipedia provides for subject's own wishes regarding his or her own name, as amply demonstrated above, per the wishes of, for example, bell hooks, and not attempt to shoehorn all names under one-size-fits-all guidelines.
3) As for "No Admin is going to close this RM as "moved" contrary to WP:FRMOS...", according to longtime admin Andrewa, "The article was created at the unaccented name and moved without discussion, and that alone provides grounds for moving it back." (05:50, 30 December 2020). If there really is consensus for moving the main title header from the unaccented "Eliane" to the accented "Éliane", then a restarted Eliane Tillieux → Éliane Tillieux RM would confirm it.
Assez, indeed. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:53, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per careful reading look down the page.. "Militante au sein du PS, Éliane Tillieux répond à l’appel lancé aux femmes". The font has been squeezed at the top, something that frequently happens with É. She's francophone not Flemish-speaking, and therefore WP:FRMOS applies. Will adjust view if nom can produce a single reliable source where other French É are É but she's been given the Flemish treatment. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:55, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In ictu oculi, this has nothing to do with "Flemish" or with the percentage of French-speakers who have an accent on their name: it's simply about what reliable sources in French do with this individual's name. I see you're right that one source does use an accent after the heading (where it is absent), but both newspaper stories cited in the article have no accent, even though one of them (La Dernière Heure) does use an accent on capital-E "Égalité". Her own website and the parliament's website have "Eliane", not "Éliane", at every instance I've looked at (e.g. [1]), so the weight of RS is still very much in that direction. As I've already stated, I started creating the article at "Éliane" but changed my mind given the lack of an accent in the French-language sources (fr.wiki aside). --Andreas Philopater (talk) 23:13, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You've just posted a pdf (not a newspaper a pdf) half in Flemish and with squeezed French cap fonts. The font needs to be at 1.2 in order to show accents on caps. Instead check a newspaper website with properly heighted fonts https://www.lavenir.net/cnt/dmf20201125_01532172/le-dossier-ivg-de-retour-tensions-en-vue you can see here that there's no compression on font caps : Le dossier IVG de retour, tensions en vue ... Özlem Özen, porte désormais la proposition de loi défendue les derniers mois par Éliane Tillieux, devenue présidente de la Chambre.
See? In a font with 1.2 vertical spacing and full fonts the font accents show, same as here on en.wp. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:55, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, a pdf of an official speech in the Belgian parliament, from the Belgian parliament's website. As you can see, it provides accents on some capital letters (claims of compression notwithstanding), but not on the E of Eliane. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 14:04, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
For the purpose of deciding whether or not to use the accent, that would appear to be a reliable secondary source. But it's not in English so for that reason is irrelevant. Andrewa (talk) 05:55, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's a view I have some sympathy for, Andrewa, espcially when applied to places rather than people, but we're a little hampered by a lack of English coverage, but there is this (Belgian national broadcaster writing in English) and this and this (Brussels-based English-language media), none putting an accent on "Eliane". But to be fair there's also this from Rwanda which does use an accent. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 20:35, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And if an English speaker is called "Elenor" you don't get to tell her that statistically she should call herself "Eleanor". --Andreas Philopater (talk) 23:13, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What? Andreas, her name isn't English, it's French - and is Knack.be not a reliable source?, note that even Flemish sources with 1.2 line height spacing display the full font: https://www.knack.be/nieuws/belgie/applaudisseren-na-seksisme-argument-tegen-francken-ging-de-kamervoorzitter-te-ver/article-news-1678263.html N-VA-Kamerlid Theo Francken vraagt dat Kamervoorzitter Éliane Tillieux (PS) haar excuses aanbiedt. Aanleiding is het applaus van de voorzitter voor een parlementslid dat insinueerde dat Francken handelde uit seksistische motieven. In ictu oculi (talk)
Again, let's stick to French sources for the spelling of the French name, shall we? --Andreas Philopater (talk) 14:04, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, we stick to English sources for the spelling of all names, including Belgian ones. Andrewa (talk) 05:57, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Roman, this is just standard house keeping, Andreas Philopater made the article with a mistake, he didn't follow the French source in the French speaking politicians page. And then an editor doing house keeping on 13:45, 15 December 2020‎ @Extended Cut: correctly edited it according to source and WP:FRMOS. This happens every day cleaning up stubs. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:46, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In ictu oculi, I appreciate your point of view on this matter since I am equally insistent on the use of Polish diacritics where such diacritics are appropriate. However, one size does not fit all and, in this instance, the circumstances cannot be described as "standard house keeping", but rather fall under WP:Requested moves/Controversial. The creator of the article, Andreas Philopater, a member of WikiProject Belgium, is obviously insistent that he did not make a mistake and, since a key source supports him, the initial move would appear to have been better suited for WP:RM.
The key source, appended under her article's "External links", is subject's own official web site in which she uses her own name numerous times, both on the front page and in her tweets as well as under autobiographical section "Qui suis-je?" where she never accents her own name, even though she does accent uppercase "É" at the start of paragraph "Élue Conseillère provinciale de Namur..."
Furthermore, it cannot be said that the article was "correctly edited it according to source and WP:FRMOS. This happens every day cleaning up stubs." The key source provided in the article (subject's official website) did not support the use of the accent and the article, while sufficiently brief to qualify as a stub, was not listed among stubs.
I appreciate the fact that another member of WikiProject Belgium, Brigade Piron, changed his vote from "support" of no-accent to "oppose" because of the sources that you provided, but other media sources, such as the one also used in the article, indicate the name without an accent, starting with its use in the middle of the opening sentence.
Finally, while it is apparent that some media outlets originating in both Wallonia and Flanders assume that, because subject is a French speaker, she accents the initial "E" in her name, those outlets may depend on local style guides that do not take into account subject's own official form of her name which is unaccented. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:34, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Summary: so far we have four reliable sources (the subject's own website, the parliament's website, and two national newspapers) not providing an accent on "Eliane", even though they do provide accents on other capital letters (including "Élue" and "Égalité" – which suggests that omitting an accent on Eliane is a deliberate choice); two reliable sources (a regional newspaper and a regional government website) do provide an accented "Éliane". I would suggest that at this stage the weight of the sources is still towards not using an accent, even though there is greater indication of the use of Eliane with an accent than I had first found. In the absence of a conclusive statement from a reliable source directly addressing the spelling of her name, this is enough to maintain a clear preference for the original article title ("Eliane"). I am happy to change my view should the balance of sources shift in favour of the use of an accent, but so far nothing has been produced that does this. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 14:21, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Summary we have not found one reliable print source which contradicts WP:FRMOS.
As for html, it may be a display issue on your PC, but can you please demonstrate where exactly you think that the website goes "Eliane... Élue ... Égalité" because on the website above the font html height was a 1.0 on the first section compressing font height, and 1.2 on the smaller font section allowing full capital accents. On my PC I cannot see one example in what you have shown of selective de-accenting of her name contrary to French orthography In ictu oculi (talk) 22:21, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In ictu oculi, you've been pointed to both already, but here again: The subject's own website uses "Eliane" and "Élue"; a report in a national newspaper uses "Eliane" and "Égalité". You said here "Will adjust view if nom can produce a single reliable source where other French É are É but she's been given the Flemish treatment." By "Flemish treatment" I assume you mean "spells her name without an accent". So for the past fortnight not one but two reliable sources have been available to you. You should probably redact that comment. Or adjust your view, of course, but I somehow don't see that happening. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 20:23, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I had a look at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/France and French-related articles and found it no help whatsoever... it is not even consistent and looking at that and its history and talk the case that it represents even a rough consensus is weak. The article was created at the unaccented name and moved without discussion, and that alone provides grounds for moving it back. Many of the sources quoted are either in French (or other languages other than English) or primary or both, and in either case irrelevant. Best to move it back unless reliable, secondary English sources mostly use the accent. And that seems most unlikely. Andrewa (talk) 05:50, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's here Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/France_and_French-related_articles#Accents_and_ligatures which specifically states that the accent on a capital E for WP:FRENCHNAMES must be retained. see list of Éliane, see multiple third-party French and English media sources confirming "Éliane Tillieux". This name does not exist as unaccented E in French. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:21, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Any and all sources that depict the name "Eliane Tillieux" in its incorrect accented form, "Éliane Tillieux", do so with that same assumption — if other French-speakers bearing this given name use the accented form, "Éliane", then this specific French speaker must also use the accented form. If we accept such a one-size-fits-all approach, then even if Eliane Tillieux herself contacted Wikipedia and confirmed that she does not use an accent, we would have to inform her that WP:FRENCHNAMES takes precedence over the form she uses for her own name and takes precedence over the form used by government websites. Various reliable sources depict the American writer's name as "Bell Hooks" and yet Wikipedia's main title header is "bell hooks" despite obviously nonconforming orthography. Subject's own stylization of her own name should be accepted. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:55, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's a reasonable suggestion. Strike your incorrect comment about Belgian French. Stop adding comment and let a passing admin close this off-to-a-bad-start RM as "not moved, no consensus". Then contact the politician to find out if she wants to be treated differently from all other French names beginning with É on fr. nl. it. en Wikipedias. And also that she should inform the Belgian Francophone, English and Flemish press and fr. and nl wikipedias. Then open a RfC to overturn Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/France_and_French-related_articles#Accents_and_ligatures so that we can follow personal stylisms rather than WP:FRMOS. Then everyone would be happy. She would have a claim to fame as the first Francophone É to de-accent herself, there would be an article in the Belgian press about it, and we could add that as a sourced WP:RS fact to the BLP. 10:06, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
Or, you know, we could follow what the bulk of the reliable sources say, rather than what we think they ought to say. I'm pretty sure there's an essay or a guideline somewhere about that. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 18:47, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What I wrote at 23:55, 5 January was not structured as a suggestion nor was it intended as such. The key words in my supposedly "incorrect comment" [16:01, 23 December 2020] are "not always", thus allowing for exceptions — as in the case of Eliane Tillieux. Since this is an ongoing discussion, I cannot "Stop adding comment and let a passing admin close this off-to-a-bad-start RM as "not moved, no consensus" since the lack of consensus confirms that it should not have been unilaterally moved in the first place and thus should be restored to its original unaccented form. It should then be submitted for RM as Eliane Tillieux → Éliane Tillieux and, if there is consensus for a move to the accented form, it would be moved.
No need to contact Eliane Tillieux or start an MOS overturn discussion since her wishes are already evident at her own entries in her political, personal and governmental websites as well as her Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn and Dun & Bradstreet pages, all of which, without exception, depict "Eliane", not "Éliane". There are also press entries for her as "Eliane", thus everything is already well sourced. As for "fr. nl. it. en Wikipedias", Zbigniew Brzezinski, who was born and raised in Poland, is listed as Zbigniew Brzeziński in Polish Wikipedia, but English Wikipedia respects the choice made by him and his children (but not by his father) to drop the diacritic. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:21, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Accents and ligatures
Shortcut
French proper names and expressions should respect the use of accents and ligatures in French. These are:
Accent a e i o u y
grave à è ù
acute é
circonflexe â ê î ô û
tréma ë ï ü ÿ
Others ç œ æ
Common French usage is to omit accents in capitals, however this is not the proper usage and accents should be included in capitals (as required by the Imprimerie nationale and usual in Canada). When used in article names, all common non-accented/non-ligatured forms should redirect to the article. There will often be many redirects, but this is intentional and does not represent a problem: Saint-Étienne, Édouard Manet, Édith Piaf, Émile Zola. — Preceding unsigned comment added by In ictu oculi (talk • contribs) 08:42, 31 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've closed this: If the initial editor put this at 'Eliane Tilleux', and it was peremptorily moved on 15 December, then it should have been reverted as an undiscussed move; If those in favour of a title using a diacritic wish it moved, they should open a request move to that effect; the burden of proof is theirs, not the other way round. Xyl 54 (talk) 03:22, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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