Talk:Filipino people of Spanish ancestry

Andrés Bonifacio's and José Rizal's grandfathers were Spaniards

Both Andrés Bonifacio's and José Rizal's grandfather were Spaniards. Those are historical facts whether we like them or not. Please stop being so blatantly racist, I don't see anyone having a problem with Rizal having Chinese ancestry, so what's wrong exposing their Spanish ancestry? We are talking about their own close relatives, for Christ's sake. How you dare denying and twisting something like that? FilHispano (talk) 09:45, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

It says that they are half-caste Spanish. What does it mean by 'half-caste'? Bleubeatle (talk) 22:22, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

It does not matter what their racial background were, what matters is that they were Spaniards.

Spanish people (in very much the same way that Filipino people) are all mixed-race. Apart from the original Iberian tribes (whose equivalent would be the Negritos), and the Tartessians, Phoenicians, Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans, Vandals, Celts, Jews, Arabs, Berbers, Romani people, there are many Spaniard citizens who are descendents of people from Spain's former colonies, mostly from Equatorial Guinea, Argentina, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Peru, Colombia, Morocco and the Philippines. There is also a sizeable number of Spaniards of Middle Eastern, Eastern European, African and Chinese origins.

Exactly the same as those Filipinos whose ancestry are Chinese, Malay, Japanese, Spanish, etc.

FilHispano (talk) 07:45, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

But they're not really "Spaniards". They were born in the Philippines. Their parents were not Spaniards either but of Spanish descent. I don't really that that we should deny that they do have Spanish in their ethnic background but they aren't a great example of descendants of Spaniards...but that's just my opinion. I reckon that they should still be mentioned in this article though. Since they played an important role in Philippine history..Bleubeatle (talk) 09:37, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Both Andrés Bonifacio's and José Rizal's grandfather were Spaniards. Born in Spain.

Rizal's grandfather was a mixed-race Spaniard engineer named Lorenzo Alberto Alonzo. Born and raised in Spain.

Bonifacio's grandfather was also a Spaniard. We don't have many details about him apart from his nationality, because he never married Bonifacio's grandmother, but as far as ethnic background he could have been of African ancestry for all it matters, just the same as a sizable proportion of Spain's population. Still a Spaniard.

FilHispano (talk) 21:05, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok thanks for clarifying it for me Bleubeatle (talk) 06:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I know one year has passed but I still have my doubts. If you don't mind, could we please discuss it here? I still think that there is a borderline between Spanish-Filipino and mestizo. Looking forward to hear more from you in the future. Thanks.Bleubeatle (talk) 22:50, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Corazón Aquino and Noynoy Aquino

Jose Cojuangco, whose mother was Antera Estrella of Gapan, a daughter of Spaniard Felipe Estrella, was the father of former Philippines President Corazon Aquino and the grandfather of current Philippines President Noynoy Aquino.

Ok you can put him there but as for Corazon Aquino and Noynoy Aquino, we may need to either remove them or place them in a sentence with his name. Don't worry because people will understand that Corazon and Noynoy are also of Spanish ancestry when they click on Jose Cojuangco's name because their names are mentioned in his article. So listing his grandchildren in this list is not necessary. We just want to avoid a huge clutter of names on that section. Blueknightex (talk) 09:45, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi, just wondering who wrote this? Is this RafaelMinuesa? I just want to ask about the two other Filipinos that you added like Epifanio de los Santos and Claro M. Recto. I don't think that they are of Spanish descent. However, they did play an important role in Spanish scholary especially Epifanio. I was reading through their articles and I found no evidence that they are of Spanish ancestry. The article didn't mention anything about any of their family members having Spanish lineage. Unless I missed out something in that article. Would you care to point them out for me? Oh and also Gloria Macapagal Arroyo as well. Thanks Blueknightex (talk) 10:30, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi Blueknightex, yes it was me, sorry I forgot to sign. I remember adding them some time ago and checking on their pages in order to do so. All references seem to be gone now, as well as those that were on Rizal and Quezon pages that I have already restored, and probably many more. It seems that there are some people trying to erase all references to the Spanish ancestry of these people, I wonder why. Surely Rizal and the rest wouldn't like to have anybody trying to hide the origins of their own ancestors.

I will look for those missing sources for Epifanio de los Santos, Claro M. Recto and Gloria Macapagal Arroyo as soon as I have some spare time.--RafaelMinuesa (talk) 12:01, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

José Rizal's Spanish ancestry

José Rizal also had Spanish ancestors. His grandfather and father of his mother Teodora was a half-caste Spaniard engineer named Lorenzo Alberto Alonzo.

Hi, thanks for posting this up. Could you please place this information on Jose Rizal's article first along with the source that you've obtained? Because we can't just place 'any' names in that section. People will also click on those names to see if there is reliable proof on their articles that they shows why should be in this section. Blueknightex (talk) 09:50, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

There are many references. Here's one "José Rizal: life, works, and writings" | publisher=Villanueva | author=F. Zaide, Gregorio | year=1957 | pages=5

It was on Rizal's page as well, but apparently someone is doing the rounds deleting all references to Spanish ancestry of notable Filipinos, So far I have restored Rizal and Quezon. --RafaelMinuesa (talk) 11:44, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi! Ok. I'm gonna watch that page as well and see who's removing them. Thanks for replying! Blueknightex (talk) 06:51, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

By the way, Rizal has a very complicated family tree. He may have Spanish ancestry but he also has Chinese. It gets very complicated as we go deep into our own family trees as well. Remember Filipino people's early ancestors were Malay-Indo people. These examples should only be limited to parents. As such I have decided to remove him here. Please do note that you are allowed to put Rizal under Category: Filipino people of Spanish descent provided that you have sources. For more information please visit the discussion here.Bleubeatle (talk) 22:45, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Suggestions about adding people to the "Notable Filipinos of Spanish ancestry" list

Before you add anymore names please make sure that you have the following as clear proof that they are of Spanish ancestry:

1. If the person listed has their own article then that article must mention that they do have someone in their family with Spanish and Filipino ancestry and a reliable source to prove it. If this person listed does not have an article of their own then you must provide a reliable source next to their name.

2. They should be Filipinos who are either born, have lived or is currently living in the Philippines. Otherwise please do not include them since this is an article talking about Filipino people who have Spanish ancestry in them.

If any of the names listed do not follow these points then people have the right to remove them. If you have any questions then feel free to discuss them. We are doing this to keep the article as accurate as possible. Thank you! =) Blueknightex (talk) 10:10, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I might cut that section down to half now. According to Wikipedia standards, articles are not archives of people's names and its not an advert or official list of who in the Philippine business, music or media industry is half-Spanish. The purpose of that section is provide examples. So please refrain from adding anymore on that list. Bleubeatle (talk) 04:09, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Filipino Citizens not Spanish citizens Needs lots of clarification

This article needs lots of clarification. It shouldn't be "Spanish citizens" in the Philippines, because that doesn't make sense, they're of Spanish descent but their citizenship is the Philippines, so they're not Spanish citizens, they're Filipino citizens. My goodness. But I admire the idea of this article as important to the assessment of the entire population of the Philippines.

Erasing this sentence: "the Spaniards have since integrated and became part of the Philippine society" because they have always been a part of Philippine society, it implies that they were never Filipinos, which is of course false, because they are as Filipino as any brown-skinned person —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.70.59 (talk) 02:59, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry, I've fixed this problem. I categorised them as "Notable Spaniards of Filipino Ancestry" alright? Blueknightex (talk) 10:35, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Blueknightex (talk) 06:39, 12 March 2009 (UTC)By the way I was wondering..I've done a lot of research with Jose Rizal and Isable Preylser and it turns out that their not EVEN Half Spanish or Mestizo!!. I;m sorry but I must remove them from the list. If you have any problems with that please discuss it with me!

I am removing Charlene Gonzales on the list. Who added her here? Next time, please provide references that she has Spanish ancestry. Having a Spanish-sounding last name does not count. Blueknightex (talk) 09:00, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Added her back. My bad.Blueknightex (talk) 09:24, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Gonzales ending with an S is not even spanish put Portuguese!--76.213.237.154 (talk) 21:05, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Re "they're of Spanish descent but their citizenship is the Philippines, so they're not Spanish citizens, they're Filipino citizens" above, the article says, these people are mostly descendants of the migrants to the Philippines during the colonial period. One wonders where in the line of descent from the migrating ancestor(s) Spanish citizenship was lost, or whether it was lost at all or lost in all cases. As I understand it from Spanish nationality law#Loss and recovery of Spanish nationality Spaniards by origin who acquire Philippines nationality don't (under current Spanish law) loose their Spanish citizenship (I don't know how long this has been the case). Also, my understanding is that both Spain and the Philippines generally follow Jus sanguinis, and that a child born with at least one Spanish national and at least one Philippine national parent would be national of both countries. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:27, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Article Name

The article name should be spanish Filipino..which is not missleading...to anyone.....there are all the other articles of the filipino sub groups like filipino mestzo ....etc...in the english language it is known as: Spanish=Ancestry, filipino=Nationality.. All the other articles of other ancestry ahave their descent named before thier nationality.. ohh and we need to find only people with Spanish ancestry..not using Mestizo people..that are partly of another race....thats not of European ancestry....there is another article for that one.. August 2007 (UTC)

The title is as straightforward as you can get. I undid your vandalism on the Canadians of Spanish descent page as well. You can NOT just impose ethnic names on people.

The article name must be changed

Why it is "Filipinos of Spanish descent"? Why not "Spaniards of Filipino descent"? It's neither of the two things! It's a mix. Thus, it should be just "Spanish-Filipinos". With the actual name, you are supposing that all the mixed Spanish-Filipino people are from the Philippines, when it is not truth. Look at Isabel Preysler or Enrique Iglesias: they are not "Filipinos of Spanish descent"; they are "Spanish-Filipinos". Onofre Bouvila 18:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

---Well, Isabel Preysler is a Filipino of Spanish descent because she was born in the Philippines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.25.1.78 (talk) 13:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Your right, here is no such evidence that some of these "people" could either have had a direct spanish ancestry or a mestizo. I'm sure about the 1st president of Philippines and especially Isabel Preysler (who married a Spaniard but not a Spanish herself) but I've re-categorised her sons on Notable Spaniards with Filipino ancestry alright? Blueknightex (talk) 10:39, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Re above saying "Well, Isabel Preysler is a Filipino of Spanish descent because she was born in the Philippines", where is the logic in that? Both Spanish nationality law and Philippine nationality law are based on Jus sanguinis. Except in rare special cases, the birth location is of no significance at all. What matters is that at least one parent is a citizen of Spain and/or a citizen of the Philippines. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 04:46, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Verificability

Please cite sources, references and when, eg. 9,000 in 2004?--Jondel 09:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC) lot Filipino of crap, Hispanics only slightly less than 3% they claim the majority of Flipino is a mixture of Europeans ( bored to read all them comments ) . I think in Indonesia only a few" Little little little" ( 0,5% ) people who have a mixture of white, I ever met with " kaum Indos" they have the physical appearance of a very cute( handsome/beautiful) . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.213.212.233 (talk) 14:40, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Standard Spanish

Most Spaniards are forced to speak the standard, eg. Catalunyans,Basques are forced to speak Castillian in the Philippines.--Jondel 09:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I don’t know for sure if that’s accurate, but that is interesting, because I myself have never heard Catalan or Basque spoken or even mentioned by any Pinoy, including Catalans and Basques themselves.

My grandmother used to speak Valenciano as a child and was forced to speak in standard Philippine castellano.--Jondel 00:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC) I came to know only recently, about five years ago, that Castellano was not the only language spoken in Spain. One cannot know everything about anything and I always thought that one of the many reasons the Basque people have always wanted their independence is because they were not like the rest of the Spaniards whose native language is Castellano. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PangkaraniwanLang (talk • contribs) 04:28, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Mexicans

There were actually many Mexicans in the Philippines during the colonial period. I don't know if they should be mentioned.--Jondel 01:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

question

why aren't there a great amount of Spanish Mestizos and/or full blooded Spaniards in the Phlipines as there is in Latin America. People have said it was because there wasn't any work in the Phlipines as there was in Latin America. What about the silk? Could it not be a great place to trade silk with the Chinese in there Spanish colony the Philipines. Well they say it was hard to get there. How? they did get there obviously. So how hard is it to get there again? Again why so many Spanish Mestizos and full blooded Spaniards in Latin America and not so many in the Phlipines. There is a fair amount of Filipinos who look or even are mistaken for Latinos. Even though Filipinos who have Spanish surnames does not always nessiarly mean they are of Spanish orgin. But surnames that were not given to familes by the Spanish and surnames not taken by the Family means they have Spanish orgin.

There was a mass exodus of ethnic Spaniards during World War II, that’s why very few are now left.

You mean, a mass exodus right after WW2. Not many civilians could travel during the war. --Jondel 21:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

about Mestizo category

Why is the Mestizo category, removed all the time?? when in fact most of the SpanisH-fILIPINOS listed here are 100% Mestizos! Why don't you removed the Mestizo category in the Tornatras category, since most of those people listed are not even European looking. Mestizos are supposed to be European looking. User:Gonzalo...1960

Gonzalo, most does not equal all or by necessity. Please do not try to exclude Philippine citizens those who indeed are of unmixed Spanish ancestry—people like yourself. Moreover, Spanish mestizos are mentioned in the article as a subgroup. Should you wish to expand that section, no one is stopping you; in fact, it would be very much appreciated.

As for the Tornatrás, it does not matter whether or not they look Spanish, as technically they still are mestizo, defined, according to the Mestizo article, as “people of mixed European and indigenous non-European ancestry (emphasis added).” Genotype does not completely determine phenotype.

Correction: They still had been mestizos. I just realized—and even the Tornatrás article states—that the term ‘tornatrás’ has long fallen into disuse, much like ‘Negro’ has in the Americas. Unlike ‘Negro’, however, almost no present-day Filipinos are even aware of the existence of the word ‘tornatrás’.

Need Clarifications!

This article is confusesing and it needs 100% clarifications. It should provide accurate details on who is actually is a true Spanish-European Filipino in terms of genetic blood; and who is Spanish-Indigenous Filipino in terms of language and culture. The Spanish Filipino article is focusing on just unmixed Spanish Indigenous Filipinos who are hispanized. -- User:Gonzalo...1960

The initial paragraph states that Spanish-Filipinos are “Philippine citizens of Spanish descent, regardless of ethnolinguistic affiliation, and including, but not limited to, mestizos.” How could it possibly get any clearer than that? And no, just because someone chooses freely whether to adopt Spanish, Japanese, German, Italian, or American customs does not by necessity turn him or her into a Spaniard, Japanese, German, Italian, or American.

The number of Philippine citizens of Spanish ancestry

I derived the figure of less than 1.5 million or less than 1.8% of the population from the Filipino mestizo page. Since we do not have the exact figures, I believe the infobox should retain the previous stated figure.

I derived the current figure—3.5 million, or 4.1% of the total Philippine population (85 236 913)—from the infobox in the Spanish people article. Changes are welcome should more reliable sources be available.

Hey, I think 4.5 million is pretty high for a 'seemingly invisible minority, any sources?—23prootie 15:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that proportion (4.1% of the total Philippine population) is fair. I study in La Salle-Taft and almost half of the entire campus is made up of Spanish Mestizo looking people. Not only that, La Salle-College of Saint Benilde as well as Ateneo de Manila are also full of Spanish Mestizos. So I think it's really closer to what is really seen. —Matthewprc 12:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

i would agree, that there is probably around 2.5 to 3 million Mestizos of Spanish descent out of 84 million population of The Phillipines. even if there was only 1 million, they are definately not invisible. They own the media and rule politics. Thats why people are mistaken for assuming all Filipinos are mestizos, because the only Filipinos shown on TV are of mixed blood.--Jandela 09:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:V, people. "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.." Also, other Wikipedia articles are not suitable supporting sources. -- Boracay Bill 23:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

lot Filipino of crap, Hispanics only slightly less than 3% they claim the majority of Flipino is a mixture of Europeans ( bored to read all them comments ) . I think in Indonesia only a few" Little little little" ( 0,5% ) people who have a mixture of white, I ever met with " kaum Indos" they have the physical appearance of a very cute( handsome/beautiful) . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.213.212.233 (talk) 14:46, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Students from La Salle and Ateneo are mostly from families of good means. For a long time it was easier for mestizos (because of their ancestry) to economically get ahead of the natives and these mestizos'05:46, 28 September 2014 (UTC)PangkaraniwanLang (talk) families have not lost their money. I do not know if La Salle was founded by Spanish friars but one thing I do know If La Salle was already in existence during the colonizing era it would have been filled with mestizos and peninzulares. I am not denying that there were some natives who were smiled down with pity by the friars then got enrolled in these prestigious colleges.

Language

In which contexts do Spanish-Filipinos of this day and age speak Spanish, English, and Filipino?

Most Spanish-Filipinos nowadays don't speak Spanish anymore - except those who are old, who speak it among themselves (I occasionally hear my relatives) - other than that, they usually speak either English or Filipino. My Mestizo classmates in La Salle usually speak English (or to a lesser degree, English infused with Tagalog). I've never met any Mestizo who is under 40 speaking or knowing how to speak Spanish. —Matthewprc 12:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I THINK FILIPINOS OF SPANISH & MEXICAN DESCENT OR AT LEAST MESTIZOS ARE MORE THAN 4% I WOULD SAY AT LEAST 30 TO 40%. ALL OF MY 4 GRANDPARENTS ARE SPANISH MESTIZOS .MY RELATIVES ALONE FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE FAMILY ARE AT LEAST 5OO ALL SPANISH MEZTISOS AND SOME CHINES MESTIZOS. HALF OF MY HIGH SCHOOL AS WELL AS MY COLLEGE CLASSMATES ARE MESTIZOS LOOKING. I SAW MESTIZOS EVERYWHERE IN MY LAST VISIT IN THE PHILIPPINES. I SEE SPANISH LOOKING FILIPINOS IN MAGAZINES, TEXTBOOKS ETC. MAYBE 4% REFERS TO PURE PHILIPPINE BORN SPANIARDS.

sorry your thoughts are incorrect. I am a Filipino and genetic studies don't lie. We as Filipinos know that 90% of Filipinos (young and old) will claim they have Spanish blood because they think that it is good. Unfortunately in this day and age they're worst fears came true and they did genetic studies revealing that an estimated only 3-4% of ALL Filipinos have any EUROPEAN blood (meaning caucasian blood). And of that number only around 2% are of Spanish descent. Oh well, we are just plain old Asians, does that sadden you? Because if it does you need to evaluate your own mental stability and insecuritys with your identity. --Jandela 09:52, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

in my family the physical evidence of our ancestry supports my grandfather's claim. he said that he is of castillan descent(from palencia province) that his father is of pure castillan. for me, logically, from the trajectory on the time he was born(he's around of his late 80's),it is possible. additionally, he is not the eldest, as far as i know, their eldest is about on his late 90's of course already dead. logically, my grandparents' father was born 1880's. we have significant distinction physically. in his side, most of them tall(in males), light brown eyes, fair skin(genetically), cleft chin, and a thing called squarely face(jawline) which actually evident to my mother(however she's short). his ancestors live at batangas. he moved to nueva ecija. his father owns vast land but he did not get any of it. if you don't believe in me, it's up to you. i'm doing this because i want to clarify that not all claiming of things like this are lying. i'm giving details to ensure that you what i am saying. still, i'm a proudly filipino. --Jankunas 1:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned

Roman Catholics

“Overwhelmingly” may have read like an exaggeration or was just a bit too much, so I just put “Predominantly” instead, following the usage on the infobox on German-Brazilians and others.

escalante

is that the name of a Filipino-Spanish family? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.175.83.141 (talk) 00:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

Redundant?

It's quite funny how this article is named Spanish-Filipinos. Isn't it that the term originally referred to the Philippine-born Spaniards? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.9.55.188 (talk) 20:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

The meanings have since changed. Look at Filipino, which once also referred to the same group of people but which has now been extended to include all other people born in the islands (and nowadays, to citizens of the country), whatever the ethnicity.

Filipinos of Mexican descent 'should be' mention

This article only talks about Spanish Filipinos, What about Mexican Filipinos. Why aren't Filipinos of Mexicans descent ever mentioned in this article? It seems abit biased. There are thousands of Mexican descent in the Philippines and Mexicans of Filipino descent in Mexico. Why only Spanish is mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.106.220.144 (talk) 11:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

Reply: Just letting you know. There are 600,000 (0.6%) Mexican peoples who posses Filipino ancestry in Mexico. Check this out. [1]

IMHO, topics concerning these people should be dealt with in an article about Mexican citizens of Filipino descent. Should they be prominent enough in Mexican society, surely they’d deserve their own article on WP. Cheers.

I Was in Acapulco 7 years ago and there was a strong presence of Philippines in their history. There is a replica of of Filipno galleon as in the "Galleon trade" in the park. There was also a race between Acapulco and Manila to commerate the several hundred years of the galleon trade. There are Filipino looking Mexicans. They are not mestizo looking.They look very Malay Filipno. I swear they would talk to me in tagalog.

Amerindian descent

The Stanford study pertains only to European and not Amerindian gene markers.

Misleading opening line changed

The opening line was changed as it was misleading. It was incinuating that on one hand Filipinos are Austronesian and on the other they are of Spanish Descent. Misleads the reader into thinking there is a significant population of Spanish/Filipino mestisos in The Philippines when in fact they only make up around 2% of the population. Please feel free to better word the first line as long as it states the facts without trying to mislead the reader.--Jandela 09:52, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

True this, my thoughts exactly.--76.213.237.154 (talk) 20:57, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

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Notable Filipinos

The Notable Filipinos section inclues all Filipinos who fall into that category. It should be reduced to notable ones instead of listing all. Moretti80 (talk) 02:04, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The Stanford study

The Wikipedia article says this: Although a study provided by Stanford University[1] claimed that around 3.6% of the population have White or Caucasian ancestries from both Spanish and American colonization, it only genotyped 28 individuals from the Philippines, a sample size far too small to draw conclusions on a population of over 90 million people.

This statement is seriously wrong. First, it is not true that 28 individuals is too small a sample to draw conclusions; it just means you have wide error bars. But more importantly, the study is only about paternal ancestry, i.e. the passing of haplogroups from father to son. It does not say that 3.6% of the population have white or caucasian ancestries; it only says that 3.6% of the population are descended in the male line from a man with the European haplogroup. This is a really important distinction. I have 16 great-great grandparents. If my father's father's father's father had the European haplogroup, then I will too. But if he didn't, then I won't, even if all 15 of my other great-great grandparents were native Europeans. Obviously I would be descended from Europeans in that case, but it won't show up on my Y chromosome, which is what this paper was analyzing.

Also, the paper is not specifically about ancestry of Philippinos. It covers all of Oceania, and any statements it makes about the Philippines are purely tangential, not the main point of the study. I really don't think it should be cited at all in this article, but if it is, it should be with many caveats. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.206.194.117 (talk) 17:40, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Fine. I removed it. If anyone disagrees feel free to discuss here. Bleubeatle (talk) 04:10, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I've re-added the stanford study as it contains the only actual number figures that have been verified to any degree by a scientific study as opposed to conjecture as most of the other numbers in this article do. Untill someone can provide better definitive reasearch numbers this study should continue to be referenced.Duhon (talk) 21:48, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Let me also add that when I checked the Stanford study, they have actually got samples from the 36 Filipino individuals in areas in the Philippines that were not heavily colonized by Spain. Particularly in Mindanao and Palawan. This means that if Stanford gathered samples randomly in areas of the Philippines, including the people in Luzon and Visayas where Spanish colonialism was heavily penetrated, they will get higher samples. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.201.174.31 (talk • contribs) 24 Jan 2021 (UTC)

Ethnicity vs Nationality background

I've noticed that some of the people listed as "Notable people" do not really have Spanish ancestry but rather they migrated to Spain and settled there. How would that qualify them as of "Spanish ancestry"? Like Paulino Alcántara for example?Bleubeatle (talk) 04:13, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Content moved here from 'the article 2014-07-31

I have moved the following ciontent recently added to the eend of the Spanish colonization section by [ this edit:

This census data is corroborated by maritime traffic flow via the Manila Galleons. Each Manila Galleon (A Supercraft by historical standards) was able to carry around 1000 people per vessel and each galleon was accompanied by an armada of ships that defended it, which in turn, carried 700 people. A Manila Galleon and her accompanying armada would arrive in the Philippines carrying around 1700 people per year. The Manila Galleon trade lasted for 250 years, from 1565 to 1815, from that time period, a total of 425,000 people from Latin-America had set foot in Philippine soil via the Manila-Galleons at least by the year 1815. At that point, through the nearest population count, the 1799 population estimate by Friar Manuel Buzeta, he postulated that the population of all the Philippine islands to be at 1,502,574. Thus, out of the 1.5 Million total population of the Philippines 425,000 were settlers that came via Latin-America. This composes roughly one-third of the total Philippine population.

The total number of people from the Philippines who's areas of origin are diverse (With people from China, India, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia and etc. asides from the Philippines) who settled into Latin-American soil by 1815 would also correspond to around 425,000 settlers, since the traffic wasn't only going into the Philippines from Latin-America but also into Latin-America from the Philippines. Places such as Cuba, Colombia, Mexico and Peru holds the bulk of those corresponding 425,000 Filipinos who settled into Latin-American soil (And who's modern day descendants would number to around millions) although their total population would be unknown.

Nevertheless, the nature of the passengers that were carried to the Philippines determined the demographics of the Philippines unsuitable to pure-Spaniards born in the Peninsula. This is due to the vast majority of the settlers that had come from Latin-America via the Manila Galleons, which were either Mullatos (Half African and European) or Mestizos (Half Amerindian and Half European) with roughly only a minor number of Pure Spaniards. Only when Spain had attained direct administration of the Philippines after the Mexican War of Independence (1821), did pure Spaniards come in large numbers to the archipelago.

The assertions prior to the cite of this source don't seem to be supported by that source, and the rest is unsupporteed. Perhaps this can be reworked and added back in with supporting sources cited. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:23, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

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Colonial Caste System for the Philippines is problematic

I propose that the colonial caste system provided in the current list be removed as I have not found any sufficient data or sources that back this up. I have studied History and the list is extremely inaccurate as the Social "caste" system in Spanish Philippines are not based on race but based on religion and Hispanic cultural integration. Meaning, Indios did not just belong to one social class but in all 3. There are Indios that have the same privileges as a pure Spaniard in the Spanish Philippines. To add, the racial caste system based on social privileges was mobile and racial stigma wasnt strictly practiced in the Philippines, much less in the Spanish culture unlike most colonials (Dutch, British, US Americans)

To put it simply, the estimated major social classes in the Philippines are in this order:

1. Insulares - the most privileged class - Pure Spaniards who was born in Spain and are usually the Spaniards that run the Spanish colonial government and the Church

2. Peninsulares and Principalias.

--. Peninsulares - Pure Spaniards born and grew up in the Philippines or other colonies in South America (Criollos who are either Americanos or Filipinos belong to this social class)

--. Principalias - Pure Indios or natives who were the pre-colonial upper classes before Spain colonized the Philippines. They have the same privileges and tax exemption as the Peninsurales and Insulares.

3. Indios Naturales, Mestizos de Espanol, Tornatras - These are all individuals of EQUAL privileges regardless of races (unless if someone are as wealthy as the Principalias or Peninsulares, in this case the social privileges will follow (not racial). Whereas the pure Spaniards are tax exempt, this class pay the most smallest rate of taxes unlike other persons (example with Chinese ancestry). Indios naturales are the majority of Filipino natives who converted to Christianity and are subjects to the Spanish govt. Indios naturales do not only include native indigenous Filipinos, but also non-mestizo Peruvian and Mexican american indians who served as soldiers. Mestizos de Espanol, contrary to popular belief held the same privileges as the Indios Naturales, unless they pass for Pure Spaniard they can get away with it.

4. Mestizo de Sangley and Sangleyes. They almost have the same social privileges as in number 3 except they are required to pay higher taxes. These are children of Chinese/Indios or pure Chinese who have fully adapted and integrated to the mainstream Filipino culture of the Spanish Philippines. Most of them are merchants and become wealthy so again it isnt based on race, but social class/wealth.

5. Indios salvajes, Indios Chinos, Negritos, etc - These people belong to the lowest class in the society. Indios salvajes are those Filipinos who have not integrated to the Spanish Philippine society with their culture, religion and language. They are usually seen outside of the Spanish sphere of influence. Indios Chinos are the unconverted Chinese or Japanese who have not integrated to the Spanish Philippine society and are seen as foreigners or second-class citizens. The Indios Chinos for example, cannot work or trade outside of Manila unless they have a special pass which is like the modern day equivalent of a working visa. They are also not allowed to be buried in Catholic cemeteries as portrayed by Rizal in Noli Me Tangere. All classes belonging to 1, 2, 3 , 4 are suspicious of them, including Chinese mestizos.

6. Moros - The muslims of Mindanao. Theyy arent really part of the Spanish Philippine society but are seen as external enemies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.201.174.31 (talk • contribs) 24 Jan 2021 (UTC)

No proof that the Chinese are the only ones allowed in Intramuros

Can anyone cite the source of this? Otherwise, this should be removed. It seems like someone intellectual dishonestly posted that information to perpetuate that the Chinese have more privileges in the Philippines than the natives. This is not correct. I remember in my history class that no Europeans were allowed inside the Intramuros but only in the first 50 years (which was basically just a settlement rather than a walled fort yet) except natives who are helping with the chores or babysitting. Also the Chinese masons were only allowed inside the fort because they are the one building the walled fort and have knowledge in bricklaying. As soon as the walled fort was secured, anyone can get in upon checks by the Spanish civil guards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.201.174.31 (talk • contribs) 24 Jan 2021 (UTC)