Talk:Gainesville, Florida

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History. Boosterism will not stand.[edit]

Whoever is removing sentences on Koran burning and Rosewood, your redneck boosterism will not stand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.66.26.113 (talk) 15:13, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Your edits have been reverted again. Rosewood is not Gainesville; it's two counties away and has nothing to do with the city in any fashion. As for the scumbag you are trying to tie to the city, he has been denounced by almost every politician who represents the city—Republican, Democrat, or otherwise—and has no support outside of his little circle of fanatics in his church. Your fantastic POV-pushing is nothing more than vandalism, and I am going to request that the article be fully protected. I am an admin, but it would be inappropriate of me to protect the article because of my editorial history on it. Horologium (talk) 15:42, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

If am the one engaged in vandalism, why am I the one willing to identify myself. All I want is for the POV warning to remain on the page. Do you deny it has been questioned? Lawrence P. Rockwood, PhD


P.S. I refer you to the work of Dr. David R. Colburn who served as Provost of the University of Florida. There was direct rail between Rosewood and Gainesville at the time and Gainesville residents were involved. I don't think I am having this discussion with an historian.

For the record: I am not a present or past member of the Chamber of Commerce, I own no property in the Gainesville area or own stocks in companies in the Gainesville area, and I have not been involved in Gainesville area politics or supported any Gainesville area politician for over thirteen years. I feel anyone who posts to or edits a municipal wiki should make a similar declaration. Will you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cptrockwood (talkcontribs) 16:14, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I have no financial connection to the city of Gainesville in any way. I rent a house which is outside of the city limits, I have never supported any candidate for public office in the state of Florida (not even a bumper sticker), I don't own any stock in a company (unless my Thrift Savings Plan portfolio includes something; I don't know), and I am not a member (past, present, or future) of the Chamber of Commerce. In fact, I will be leaving Gainesville at the end of the year to move back to the Puget Sound region.
As to your PhD, how nice that you have one. Credentials don't impress me much, and Wikipedia does not give special weight to contributions from people with academic degrees, especially when they are adding in unsupported assertions which synthesize a link between an event which took place 88 years ago and the actions of a single deranged individual to create a blanket assertion of the city being a hotbed of intolerance. Gainesville may not be the extreme left-wing utopia which your congressional campaign espoused, but it is not a breeding ground for racism and xenophobia either.
I am not an historian (yet), but it doesn't take an historian to spot inappropriate synthesis. Wikipedia is not the university, where one is encouraged to create novel syntheses of data culled from other sources; Wikipedia requires an explicit connection made in a reliable source, such as a peer-reviewed scholarly article, or even a newspaper or magazine article from a source which is generally recognized as a high-end source. You provided nothing at all, and since you didn't, I suspect that Dr. Colburn has not actually written anything connecting Rosewood and Terry Jones. (He has written the definitive text on the Rosewood massacre, which is extensively cited in that article, but not so much on Terry Jones and his little clutch of malcontents. Horologium (talk) 23:57, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for engaging in a dialogue. Lets narrow the focus. I think any reasonable person would conclude the POV of this page has been questioned a number of times, not only in the case of Rosewood or Koran burning, but the Gainesville murders. I do not know how much discussion from this discussion page was removed before mine or how many POV warnings have been removed before mine. I am not a perfect Wiki citizen and hope to be a better one as I learn more. I am putting up another POV warning and hope if you take it down will explain how you acts conform to Wiki policy, which is basically leave POV warnings alone and to let viewers refer to the discussion page. I am not going to argue details with you any more. You are right, Wiki should not defer to PhDs, nor should they defer to those who cry wolf first. However, they have limited resources. You can block me and probably get away with it, just don’t kid yourself about what you are doing. I would love Dr. Colburn's opinion as th whether there should be a POV warning on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cptrockwood (talkcontribs) 16:48, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know, your tagging of the article as POV is only one ever added to the page; certainly in the four years I have had this page watchlisted, it has never been tagged as POV. (It's had other tags, primarily dealing with lack of references or the like.) And there is no way I could get away with blocking you; my extensive editing history on this article makes me a clearly involved editor, and I'd likely lose my admin privileges if I were to block you, regardless of whether the block was otherwise supported by policy. I would, however, go to the appropriate noticeboard and ask for the intervention of an uninvolved administrator; that was why you were blocked last time, because I reported you (and your IP address) for edit-warring at Wikipedia's Sockpuppet Investigations page.
You are trying to tie together several totally unrelated incidents, spanning almost 80 years, in an attempt to portray the city as racist and dangerous. That is synthesis, which is not permitted on Wikipedia. There is no place for original research on Wikipedia, only a dispassionate retelling of what other reliable sources have already stated. No source exists which will advance your narrative, which is constructed from a series of unrelated anecdotes. What happened in 1923 in Rosewood is only tangentially related to Gainesville; the sheriff in Levy County called for assistance from the sheriff in Alachua County. The KKK riots in Saint Augustine in 1963 don't have anything to do with Gainesville. Danny Rolling's murder spree in 1990 wasn't racist; it could be mentioned in a new "Crime" section along with the rape statistics (which are quite high, but university towns generally have higher rape rates than cities without large college populations). And as mentioned earlier, Terry Jones and his 30 followers don't represent the city of Gainesville at all, any more than Fred Phelps represents Topeka or Matt Hale represents Peoria. Gainesville has the most extensive civil-rights protection laws in the state of Florida, including protection of transgendered people, and the city commission is fully integrated, with an openly gay mayor. More importantly, your edit was not written in an appropriate tone for an encyclopedia (use of the second-person voice), and lacked cohesiveness with the chronological progression of the rest of the history section. Finally, your edits didn't contain any real citations; a link to the FBI crime statistics without any page references doesn't make it a reference, and the stuff about Rosewood, St. Augustine, Rolling, and Jones didn't have any citations at all. Note that even if you cite each of the above incidents, they still don't support your central thesis that Gainesville is a nest of violent racist yahoos. You need to find a source which says that, and I suspect that it is unlikely that such a source exists.
I will leave up the POV tag for a few days. You might want to consider a discussion on the Wikipedia Neutral Point of View Noticeboard if you feel that this article lacks balance, or you can seek a Third Opinion from an uninvolved editor. Either option is fine with me, since I think we have both staked out our positions on the issue.
One last thing—please sign your edits to talk pages by adding four tildes to the end of your posts.(~~~~) Sinebot will sometimes add a signature link if you fail to do so, but it doesn't always catch edits or patrol all pages, and unsigned posts on discussion pages are distracting and confusing. Horologium (talk) 18:38, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

The topics you remove from this page are more relevant to this city than the invention of Gatorade and the history of the Gainesville Health and Fitness Center. That is obvious to anyone but the most extreme booster. Your denial of violence in the history of what Ted Bundy called his favorite city is a slap in the face of every women that has been raped or attacked in this rape capital of the world, including my wife. If you really feel rape and violence against women has not been a important issue for every family who ever sent a child to study in this town or decided against it than the history of gatoraid, provide a counter source to my source that you removed. I grew up in Gainesville since my father retired from the military in 1968 and have attended Littlewood Elementary, JJ Finely Elementary, Martha Manson, Westwood, St. Paticks, and Gainesville High School. My sister was severely beat up in the race riots in the latter in the early 1970s after the Confederate Flag was repeated allowed to be raised at that school. I attended Sante Fe Community College and the University of Florida and received a PhD in American history from the latter. Your denial of racial strife in this city leads subsequently to the denial of entire communities. Gainesville had a very unique segregated African American community that even has a current historical society. This community was created by the very history you deny. I am not a African American, but a proud son of parents who refused to stand for Dixie at Gator football games. My mother took a number of her children out of Gainesville schools because of the rampant racism of in Gainesville’s public schools. I challenge you to refer this dispute to anyone at the Department of History of the University of Florida before again removing the POV warning. I am no longer willing to waste my time arguing facts that you just take down. This page is not balanced and that is obvious. I admit, I have fought Gainesville boosterism my entire life and this page is the prime example of it. You may get away with blocking me again, but the shame is on you. \ One last thing: I have never been afraid to identify myself, I am Lawrence P. Rockwood, PhD. Who are you? History, no matter how problematic, is more interesting than Gatoraid. (Cptrockwood (talk) 20:11, 22 April 2011 (UTC)).

Please stop attacking other editors of this article. We have a strong policy against personal attacks. The material you repeatedly added to the article expressed a strong personal point of view, in violation of our policy of neutrality. Credentials and status outside of Wikipedia don't impress most editors. What matters to us is the on-line contributions and behavior of editors. However, for the record, I lived in Gainesville through most of the 60s and part of the 70s, the period when integration finally came to Gainesville and to the University, and I am personally aware of the struggle involved. Gainesville was no worse, and probably better, than most places in the country during that time. My user name is my real name (that's a personal choice, but I understand very well why many editors choose to remain anonymous), and I also have a Ph.D., but that is irrelevant to my participation on Wikipedia. As I said before, what counts on Wikipedia is your on-line reputation. -- Donald Albury 22:31, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Please stop changing the subject, this is about the POV warning remaining on the page. I have authored a page has been upheld by wikipedia over and over again. It still has a POV warning because one person disagrees with it without either sources or facts. Even a link about the Gainesville murders by another poster that was previously on the page has now been taken down. There are people who do not agree with you. What is the basis of of the above editor, unlike me, not having to face those who do not agree with you.

I am insisting on no change to the page but that the POV warning should remain on the page. If the POV warning remains on the page, I will gladly replace this entire section with a short concise non-personal explanation on why the POV warning is on the page. This discussion has been aggravated by biases of more than one person. I will do my part.

Lawrence Rockwood >Cptrockwood (talk) 01:24, 23 April 2011 (UTC)<

Note: If the POV warning remains on the page and the following remains on the discussion page, I have no objection to the above section being entirely removed.

Point of View Warning.[edit]

Many municipal focused pages can exhibit a tone of boosterism regardless of the intention of any single page editor or administrator. Many edits to this page have been reverted dealing with such topics as the recent Koran burning controversy, the Rosewood massacre, the Gainesville murders and the rates of predation against women in the city’s history. While many had yet to be referenced, there definitely was tone set that any unflattering item from the city’s history was going to be reverted. If there are no unflattering edits reverted or there is no agreement with this opinion over the next twelve months, I will remove this POV warning.. The placement of a POV warning does not represent the opinion of the administrators and always favors the concerns of those who place it, even when they are in the minority. >Cptrockwood (talk) 02:26, 23 April 2011 (UTC)<

The Rosewood massacre is NOT a part of Gainesville's history, other than that the city was a place of refuge for many who escaped. (A mythic version of the story was known to many residents of Gainesville - I first heard about it in the mid 60s - but that does not make it a part of Gainesville's history.) Please present reliable sources for the other events that you think should be included in the history of Gainesville, and please stop trying to add your own interpretation and opinions about those events. As for the NPOV notice, it appears to me that you are the one who is trying to insert your personal point of view into the article. Wikipedia policy (which I admit is often breached, but that doesn't invalidate the policy) is that only material that is supported by reliable published secondary sources can be used in articles. Wikipedia is also a collaborative effort, based on editors reaching a (often rough) consensus on what an article should say. If you want to include certain historical events to the article, please suggest them here, citing reliable sources. Please remember, also, that the policy at Wikipedia:No original research prohibits "any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not advanced by the sources." Please present your suggestions here on the talk page, and I (and I hope, others) will discuss them with you. -- Donald Albury 10:56, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Again, we have the subject changed from the incredible claim that this page, as it has been maintained, is non-biased. There have been inclusions of clear citations from the Justice Department of the extremely high rates of violent predation against women in he history of this city and they were removed. The citations on Gatoraid and the history of the Gainesville Health and Fitness Center were not. There is no reason to believe that similar research will not be removed in the future. Certain content is clearly more welcome than others. I have posted material to demonstrate that this page is being maintained in a biased manner and I have succeeded. While there is no claim of perfect objectivity being made on one side of this debate, the other side makes the incredible claim that this page is unbiased and this can be proven by merely by questioning the other side’s objectivity. There is a problem of logic here and it is the likely reason why the debate always moves off the subject at hand, the appropriateness of there being a POV warning on the page. I have done my part to take the personalism out of this debate. I see it was decided to restore the above section. I agree, transparency is more important than a false appearance of objectivity. Let reader decide. That is the purpose of a POV warning.Cptrockwood (talk) 18:56, 23 April 2011 (UTC))

No, you just don't get it. Nobody is claiming that this page is unbiased. However, you are trying to throw together a bunch of unconnected factoids, unreferenced and probably impossible to reference, intended to paint the city (and by extension, its residents) in an extremely negative fashion; you even recognize that above: "I admit, I have fought Gainesville boosterism my entire life..." Wikipedia is not a venue for raising the visibility of an issue or agenda. Cooperate with other editors to neutrally summarize notable topics using reliable sources without advocating any particular position or giving undue weight to minority views. Coming in here with an obvious agenda, asserting a bunch of statements with no reliable sources to back them up (especially when they are personal recollections and anecdotes), and accusing the other editors of ulterior motives is not a recipe for collaborative success, but rather a quick ticket to a topic ban or indefinite block. Wikipedia articles are not supposed to be puff-pieces, but neither are they supposed to be a laundry list of a particular editor's grievances against the city. The Gainesville of your childhood in the 1960s bears almost no relation to the Gainesville of 40+ years later, and without some type of reliable sources to back up your statements, it's not going to go into the article, and moreover, you don't seem to understand that you cannot create a new thesis on Wikipedia; if you can find a source that states that Gainesville is a racist, misogynistic shithole, bring it up for discussion. Moreover, recognize that the history section should not be dominated by accusations of racism or violence; Wikipedia's policy om Neutral Point of View includes sections on undue weight, balance, and neutral tone; be mindful of them when editing.
There are a number of problems with the history section, which is under-referenced. It could probably use a rewrite. However, what you are proposing is not a dispassionate and encyclopedic record of the city's history, but a hatchet job about a city for which you pretty obviously harbor an intense hatred. I don't hold a brief for the city; I'm not a fan of the city commission's one-dimensional political diversity, for example, and as I have stated, I am moving away at the end of the year. However, from the rather extreme point you occupy, my neutral attitude towards the city is indistinguishable from boosterism and advocacy.
Keep in mind also that at least four editors have engaged with you here (Donald Albury and I have participated in discussions, and two other editors have undone some of your edits to the talk page.) All four of us have been here for quite a while and have demonstrated an understanding of Wikipedia's policies. (Of the four, I have the shortest editing history and lowest edit count, with slightly over 16000 edits over four years of active editing.) Lecturing to us about how Wikipedia's NPOV policies work (inaccurately) is rather arrogant for someone whose editing history consists of 52 edits over a little more than two months. Horologium (talk) 20:34, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

"Nobody is claiming that this page is unbiased." What refreshing honesty. Also your admission that my edits stood out not for lack of citations or sources, but content. It may very well be the case that to expect such a page of this to be anything but a booster ad for a city is foolish. I think Wikipedia should advertise itself as a booster service and not as an objective source of a city's history. If four administrators are fine with Wikipedia serving as a salesman for the Gainesville Health and Fitness Center and Gatoraid, that is a good argument that Wikipedia needs to change it name to Wikibooster and that it should stop misrepresenting itself. I have long given up any intention to edit the page itself. But I understand the administrators would rather keep fighting that battle rather then the issue of the POV warning. You cannot accept the fact you won your battle because in the process of winning that battle you lost the war and proved my first impression of the page was absolutely correct. All I want and all I am arguing for is that people understand that "Nobody is claiming that this page is unbiased." I have no problem if the POV warning is replaced with your wonderfully honest statement. (Cptrockwood (talk) 03:03, 24 April 2011 (UTC))

I saw the POV tag and this discussion. I combed through the article text with cptrockwood's concerns in mind. The only major "booster-y" text I saw was that about the "healthiest city." So I removed that, cleaned up some text here and there, and removed the POV tag.
I do think this article gives a reasonable and well-founded overview of the city, as appropriate for an encyclopedia. Things that I'd like to add if I knew more (or if I do a bit more research:
(1) Rewrite the paragraph about the "Berkeley of the South" and the Gainesville Eight case. I think the main idea of this paragraph is the (notable for a college town) general liberalness of the populace in a sea of southern conservatism. Maybe it needs another sentence about what the Gainesville Eight case was and how that links to the nickname "Berkeley of the South," and it certainly needs some sort of citation to that phrase.
(2) Add in another couple of sentences about gatorade and/or University of Florida football/athletics. So many people outside Gainesville and Florida inexorably link Gainesville with The Swamp on autumn Saturdays. Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 12:52, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
The history section does have some problems. For instance, it ignores everything between 1905 and 1960, and the town vs. gown tensions that resulted in the University prohibiting staff and faculty from being involved in city politics for many years. Calling Gainesville the "Berkeley of the South" was a stretch. While there were some large demonstrations in the early '70s, including one that attracted police from neighboring towns and counties and resulted in close to 350 arrests, no one was shot, no bombs went off, no buildings burned down (a fire set in Peabody Hall fizzled out before it caused any real damage), and William Kuntzler's "David against Goliath" speech on campus was a dud. There was civil rights and anti-war activism in Gainesville and at the University, and integration did not always proceed smoothly, but while these things should be covered in the article, they were not unique to Gainesville, nor particularly notable outside of Gainesville, and so only need minimal coverage. Of course, finding good reliable published sources for all of that may be a problem. I certainly don't want to rely on my memory for details from 35 to 50 years ago. Maybe I can find things in old copies of the Gainesville Sun, but coverage in books is going to be rare. -- Donald Albury 21:58, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
I have identified two articles in The Gainesville Sun which should help on that front: Gainesville in the 1970s and University of Florida: Unrest amid the boom times: 1960-1980, which should help flesh out the history section. This is finals week (and I am taking seven courses this semester), so I really don't have much time to break these down and expand the empty space in the history section, but I will take care of it next week if someone else doesn't handle it first. I *have* been trying to fix this section, despite the bad-faith accusation of some editors here. Horologium (talk) 23:19, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I will not put up the POV warning again myself. I have done all one individual should do and, unfortunately, a little more. If no one else can see what I see, I am a fool. Gatoraid and the Swamp is all Gainesville is about. I could not say anything more insulting about this city if I tried. However, anyone whose edit is removed because it is not flattering to this city or if you believe this page is unbalanced, please place a POV warning and make some remarks here. It is easy. (Cptrockwood (talk) 02:25, 25 April 2011 (UTC))

Please note, this page has been substantially edited to the benefit of the content censors. Not only do we not have objectivity, we do not have transparency. Changes to the page itself, at least, make it look more professional (Cptrockwood (talk) 02:58, 25 April 2011 (UTC))

POV notice[edit]

I have removed the POV notice that was recently re-added to the article page. There has been previous discussion here about whether the notice was necessary, but no discussion since it was removed. If someone wants to add it again, I think they should come here first for a discussion. -- Donald Albury 22:47, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

And the notice has been restored again without even a peep here. Unless there is discussion here of real issues, I do not see any reason for leaving the notice on the page. -- Donald Albury 10:17, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I guess I am not a fool. It did not take long for another person to agree about booster tone of this page. (Cptrockwood (talk) 06:39, 7 May 2011 (UTC))

Gainesville is not a Berkeley. The rape rate for the former is 1.56 times the National Average and the latter is 0.42 times the National Average. Violence against women in this city has been of historical importance. Anyone who sends a daughter to this town to school who is raped or murdered should be able to sue the censors of this page. Data Source: 2003 FBI Report of Offenses Known to Law Enforcement (Cptrockwood (talk) 07:07, 7 May 2011 (UTC))

While I feel that calling Gainesville "the Berkeley of the South" was overblown, the statement is given as a quote from Marshall Jones, cited from a reliable source. I would also note that at the time Jones was referring to, student activism at UF was as prevalent, if not more so, than any other large school in the South. Can you point to a reliable source that says women are at high risk of sexual violence in Gainesville, and that this fact is of historical significance? You can cite published crime statistics, but your own analysis of what those statistics mean is original research, which is not allowed in Wikipedia. -- Donald Albury 03:21, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I guess you don't consider the "FBI Report of Offenses Known to Law Enforcement" a reliable source. I would like you to discuss that. Identical sourced content was removed from page itself. I feel any attempt to edit this page is useless. That is why I want the POV warning. Please go on record and say you feel sexual violence against women in Gainesville is not of historical significance. That is is of less significance to those considering sending a child to study in Gainesville than the booster material on the page. Please go on record that you really believe this. I do not mind if my posting to the page is edited to adjust tone, but the constant removing of a whole category of material from the page is censorship and a POV warning as been earned by this page. (Cptrockwood (talk) 04:02, 9 May 2011 (UTC))

It would help if you provided a link to the FBI report, or enough information to allow a casual reader to find the report in a library. A statistical report does not in and of itself establish historical significance. Moreover, it is not for you or me to say whether or not Gainesville is particularly unsafe for women compared to similar cities. You need to find at least one reliable source that supports that statement. Remember, everything in Wikipedia must be verifiable from reliable sources. No original research is allowed, which means that editors are not allowed to insert their opinions or analysis into articles. Neutral point of view means that verifiable material must be present in a balanced manner. If reliable sources conflict on a subject, we note the differences in the article, without giving undue weight to fringe positions. Now, again, please cite reliable sources for your statements. -- Donald Albury 21:19, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

It is web hosted by DOJ and found all over the web. http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_06.html. It is not the sources that are in question and you know it. You could not do a simple Google before going into lecture mode again. Again in 2009, Gainesville had a rate of 57.5 rapes per 100,000 compared to Berkeley’s 27. Why don’t we defer this argument to subject matter experts? UF/SFCC NOW Rape Action Committee; P.O. Box 2235; Gainesville, FL 32602-2235 You just cannot admit this page has been censored in a biased manner. Put the POV warning back up and give it a rest. (Cptrockwood (talk) 17:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC))

I have no objection to citing the crime statistics in the article (although I cannot speak for others), but any commentary, analysis, discussion of significance, or comparison with other cities will require citations to reliable sources. Neither you nor I, nor any other editor, can provide analysis or commentary on the crime statistics that is not supported by reliable sources. You cannot use Wikipedia to make an argument that has not already been presented in a reliable source. -- Donald Albury 21:16, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

No, you cannot talk for others. But you carry water for those who have removed the same content and sources under discussion by going along with taking down the POV warning. Sources as solid as any other on the page have been taken down because of content they were associated with were unflattering to the city. If you agree that the content is of historical significance, you have to agree with me on the POV warning. You cannot have it both ways.(Cptrockwood (talk) 02:01, 11 May 2011 (UTC))

No, I do not agree that the 2009 crime statistics are of historical significance. And, no, I do not have to agree with you about the POV warning. Current or very recent crime statistics can be found in some articles about cities, particularly where there has been significant coverage in the press about crime in that city. I am not aware of significant coverage of crime in Gainesville that compares it to other cities or that states that any type of crime is more prevalent than elsewhere. If you want to talk about the historical significance of crime in Gainesville, note that I have recently added something about the situation in Gainesville in the later part of the 19th century, when the town seemed to match the common image of a town in the Wild West. Also note that I cited a published history of Gainesville for that material. -- Donald Albury 09:50, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

I re-added the POV notice, because clearly this article biased in favour of those who wish to boost this locale for economic reasons.--Plato 09:20, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

And I will remove it again, as you have failed to provide any specifics of what you think needs to be fixed, and the consensus has been to remove it. -- Donald Albury 09:50, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

You mean if we stick to the 19th century, we can have something approaching objective history on this site? (Cptrockwood (talk) 20:36, 13 May 2011 (UTC))

I'm waiting for another book to come in, hopefully today, before working on the history after 1900. Hildreth and Cox does cover up to 1979, but I would like to have a second comprehensive source to work from (Hicks, Pickard and Rajtar are spotty, useful only for some details). -- Donald Albury 10:20, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Again, this discussion page has been edited to make it appear there has been less support of the POV warning remaining on the page itself than is the historical case. This makes those us demanding its restoration appear more extreme while again proving the correctness of our position. The general public are not seeing the entire discussion to the benefit of those defending taking down the POV warning. In the secret section I agreed to hold off on the issue of the POV warning until the rewriting of the history section is complete. If the completed section includes the historical significance of violence against women in this city, I agreed to accept the POV warning being removed. I am the only one who has proposed any attempt at compromise. The response is that one of the editors admitted that if the history of violence in Gainesville would “attract tourists,” it would then be historically significant. I think the general public as a right to see this discussion. (Cptrockwood (talk) 15:58, 28 May 2011 (UTC))

Unhelpful edits[edit]

I've reverted Plato on the article page. If that user did not agree with Horologium's reversion of Mark Sublette's addition, the proper action was to bring it up here. I also reverted the POV temp, as Plato has yet to discuss here why that template should be on the article page, and the consensus of prior discussion and action was to remove it. -- Donald Albury 15:48, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

I look foward to the completion of the ongoing update of the section. The POV warning issue should pause a reasonable amount of time for the completion of that effort. I think a consensus is not enough when there are numerious dissents in reference to questions of boosterism or "peacocking" cities. If the historical significance of violence against women in Gainesville is to be addressed, I would be willing to defer on other issues. (Cptrockwood (talk) 19:47, 21 May 2011 (UTC))

Please cite the sources you feel support the statement that violence against women is of historical significance in Gainesville. Bare crime statistics do not establish historical significance. Neither do isolated news reports of violence again women. Even a notorious crime spree such as that of Danny Rolling does not in and of itself establish a pattern of violence against women in Gainesville. Commentary on the subject in published reliable sources such as newspapers, magazines and/or books would help. Some Web sites may also be useful, but Web sites, as well as print publications, have to meet the Wikipedia standards for reliability. We also have to be cautious about using material from advocacy groups. Even using reliable sources, we have to watch for and try to balance biases in sources. I have had to rely in large part on Hildreth and Cox's History of Gainesville, Florida, while remaining aware of its shortcomings. I hope to research back issues of the Gainesville Sun, which may help document specific events, but newspaper articles usually don't provide much historical perspective. There may be some useful items in the journals of historical societies, but I don't have easy access to them. There are some theses and dissertations at the University of Florida on the history of Gainesville, but until they are published, I can't use them (and in any case, I don't have access to most of them).
Gainesville was a frontier town until the 20th century, with the attendant violence, but that was true for Florida in general. Today the city has the problems of a fairly small urban area. The history of violence in Gainesville is often glossed over, but that is true of most places, unless they have embraced their violent history to attract tourists. I find it interesting that the most commonly cited activity of the Klan in Gainesville in the 1920s and 1930s was burning down whorehouses. I find it hard to believe that the Klan did not take action against blacks in Gainesville (I don't count parades, the Klan was always parading), but I have have found nothing saying so. I can't put something in the article for which I cannot cite a reliable published source. -- Donald Albury 12:18, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, case proven. If the history of violence in Gainesville would “attract tourists,” yu are arguing it would be historically significant. Put the POV warning back up. (Cptrockwood (talk) 15:52, 28 May 2011 (UTC))

Improving the Article[edit]

  • More details are needed about the University of Florida and its effect on the Gainesville economy. Historical details about how the university has shaped the city might also be good as well. Jccort (talk) 21:36, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
If you have information from reliable sources, add it. My understanding is that the University played only a small role in the growth and economy of Gainesville until after WWII. I do intend to add more about the role of the university community in Gainesville politics (which only became significant from the 1960s on). However, the Hildreth and Cox history only goes up to the 1970s, and I haven't found much on the history and economy of Gainesville since then. -- Donald Albury 01:25, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Government and Politics[edit]

Right now, the page deals very little with the government and politics of the city and what few edits are made (such as one I just reverted) are one-sided. I feel as though the page should have a "Government and politics" section with a greater exploration of the format of city government, elected officials and the "issues of the day" in Gainesville. Thoughts? --Absenteeist 06:50, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Right now, the page deals very little with the government and politics of the city and what few edits are made (such as one I just reverted) are one-sided. I feel as though the page should have a "Government and politics" section with a greater exploration of the format of city government, elected officials and the "issues of the day" in Gainesville. Thoughts? --Absenteeist Ⓣ Ⓒ 2:50 am, Today (UTC−4)

True, the page deals little with city government and politics. However, the sentence deleted follows these two sentences in the same paragraph: "The Gainesville MSA was ranked as the #1 place ..." "Gainesville was also ranked as one of the ..." Therefore "Additionally, Gainesville has been cited as the 5th ..." Strikes me as analogous to the two previous, retained sentences; perhaps commence the sentence with "Gainesville was ranked, additionally, ..." would be better stylistically since it is parallel to the two above lines. So, unless you reply with a good reason to not so do, later today I'll add the line back, using better phrasing.
As for POV, the preceding 2 lines are also biased, albeit in a positive way; if they were balanced with negatives, then my added sentence should likewise be balanced with something positive, but the former are not, so the latter is strictly parallel.
The article thus far has a very positive POV and largely reads as a promotion for the city; adding a negative aspect actually helps neutralize a POV.
Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 12:11, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


Fine, if reliable sources support the material. I think we should avoid ephemeral issues, however. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, and I think we should avoid "issues of the day" that no one will care about in ten years. What is "encyclopedic" is, of course, open to discussion. -- Donald Albury 11:23, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
The added and removed sentence is no more (or less) ephemeral than the preceding two sentences and, actually, is more recent (2009) than the preceding sentences (both 2007). As noted in my above comment (inserted there subsequent to an edit conflict) I intend tonight, unless it's argued persuasively why I shouldn't, to revert the deletion, albeit editing it to make its style more parallel the preceding sentences.
Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 12:11, 9 July 2011 (UTC) (in flight on an airplane and a bit typing challenged)
Then all three should be deleted. They are ephemeral awards and condemnations that won't be relevant in a decade, as Mr. Albury said. Wikipedia is not a news source, and I doubt this meal limit issue will be relevant even next month, considering it's coming before the commission soon. Unless you'd object, Mr. Lipsio, I'll go ahead and replace the year-specific awards with more general information about the city's demographics and facts? ----Absenteeist 16:04, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
Deleting all three sentences is reasonable, IMHO, as they all are ephemeral awards and may make some sense in the context of the city's history, but not where they are in the introductory paragraphs.
As to whether the meal limit issue will be relevant next month, I rather doubt that much will change, as the City Commission has been dragging its feet on the matter and postponing dealing with the latest proposal, but time will tell whether or not my doubts are well founded and, at any rate, the city will always have historically held these distinctions as it has many others, both good and bad, over its history.
Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 18:10, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Gainesville, FL: EPA Koppers/Beazer East Gainesville Superfund[edit]

[ http://www.alachuacounty.us/depts/epd/pollution/pages/soildata.aspx. Missing or empty |title= (help)] Gainesville, FL is home to a large EPA Superfund site - Koppers/Beazer East Gainesville Superfund Gainesville, Florida. The University of Florida sits within a 1-2 mile radius of this EPA Superfund site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.178.49.209 (talk) 00:43, 26 May 2014 (UTC) Vickie in Florida (talk) 00:54, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

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Timeline[edit]

What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content! Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 14:23, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

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History of Gainesville, Florida[edit]

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List of mayors[edit]

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History section[edit]

Could someone please add at least five lines to the "history" section? It's great to have a separate article about it, but this main article should have a little bit, too. Please ping me when you have done it. Thank you!Zigzig20s (talk) 17:09, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

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Railroad remnants in Gainesville[edit]

In the last day there was dispute over edits, with the contention being whether trackage remains and freight trains operate in the city. It is apparent from current aerial photographs and from maps that the CSX tracks only extend from north of the city and stop right north of NW 23rd Avenue.Dogru144 (talk) 23:16, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

I removed the statement that the last trackage was removed from the city in 1984 because the cited source did not support that statement, and, in fact, a line still extends into the city. I am well aware of how much trackage has disappeared from Gainesville, having been around the city since 1961, but there is still a bit of track leading onto the city. - Donald Albury 00:41, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

February Climate Data Modification[edit]

The record high temperature observed for the entire month of February is now 89 degrees F, which was set on February 18, 2019. The old record was 88 degrees F.

Generally one needs to provide proof with a citation of some sort. When this was changed a few days ago, I could not find proof. NOAA had a high of 88 for their historical data that included February 2019. I don't know if it took some time to update NOAA files but I did find it at https://w2.weather.gov/climate/getclimate.php?date=&wfo=jax&sid=GNV&pil=RER&recent=yes&specdate=2019-02-18+22%3A04%3A53. Will update page.

UPDATED February 23, 2019: New record is 91 degrees F. Ref: https://twitter.com/NWSJacksonville/status/1099393386212151298

Twitter is not a source even if by NOAA. Nonetheless, maybe we should wait until the end of the month before updating the high for the month. The area may break the record again. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 21:43, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Gainesville is a College Town[edit]

Santa Fe College is most certainly in Gaiesville. Debating that makes no sense. Just search up Santa Fe and it says "a college in Gainesville Florida." It has over 20,000 students, and UF has over 56,000. UF also has over 26,000 faculty, as stated and cited later in the article. That is why Gainesville is most certainly a college town. I edited the last sentence and made it "Gainesville is a college town, being home to the University of Florida and Santa Fe College." That is completely factually accurate. PopularOutcast and Meters can disagree and revert my edits, but I am correct. BobRoberts14 (talk) 03:20, 11 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

We are not saying it is not there. We're saying that your claims about it are not sourced and that most of the info should be in the education section.
The biggest problem is the unsourced WP:OR you are attempting to add. First you made added an unsourced claim that the majority of the town either works or attends U of F to the lead. It was undone by more than one editor as being unsourced and not belonging in the lead..On your talk page you suggested changing that to "the vast minority" whatever that is supposed to mean. You then moved on to attempting to call this a college town which is highly dependent on teh u and the college. Wikipedia cannot be used as a source for how many students there are. Any reliable sources in the other wikipedia article may be copied here (I have not checked but the U of F sources in the education section may already contain the numbers) but we have nothing for the college. The claim about this being a college town need to sourced. The fact that U of F is important to the town's economy is already mentioned and sourced in the education section. Any similar claims about the college need to be sourced. Any claims about how many of the workers and students are form the town need to be sourced. And since editors have stated that you r material does not belong in the lead that needs to be discussed too. I tend to agree with that. A simple statement in the lead that the town has a major U and college is sufficient. Details belong in the education section. If there are sources supporting the importance of the schools to the local economy then a case could b made for including some of that info in the lead. Find your sources and make your case. Meters (talk) 03:47, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Look at any source on UF or Santa Fe and it will state the number of students. 56,000+ and 22,000+ respectively. Just check their own websites, https://www.sfcollege.edu/ and http://www.ufl.edu/ Both immediately state that they are in Gainesville. It's not something that needs to be sourced. And a city with over 78,000 students at two colleges is most certainly a college town. It makes no sense to debate that. The fact that Gainesville is a college town is important information about the city. Many of its residents teach or are students at the school. I agree that the majority aren't, but tens of thousands are. My previous edits about the majority working or being students at the school were false. My new edit stating that Santa Fe is a college in Gainesville and that the city is a college town were correct, and definitely don't need citations. It's just completely obvious. "Gainesville is home to the University of Florida" is not cited, so saying that Santa Fe is in Gainesville doesnt need to be. BobRoberts14 (talk) 03:56, 11 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

I don't think that you understand the concept of reliable sourcing and verifiability. Read the links on this page and on your talk page.,a nd read WP:RS and WP:V. I have already added a source for the college town claim so that's done. You are mistaken, this article does already' contain a source placing the U of F in the town. Meters (talk) 04:03, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that, and sorry about arguing. I'm new to Wikipedia and therefore don't know about these things. I appreciate you finding a source and teaching me about what to do properly. I'll make sure to source that kind of information in the future. BobRoberts14 (talk) 04:10, 11 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

It's possible that there are sources that detail the importance of the schools to the local economy. The one currently in the article is actually about the importance of U of F to the state's economy. Perhaps the town itself has published something? Meters (talk) 04:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
We do have a city source in the Economy section showing that the U is the top employer in the city, but it does not mention the college in the top 10. Meters (talk) 04:28, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
I looked at the source for the college town phrasing and think it's an opinion piece. There is no definition as to what constitutes a college town. Santa Fe is tiny compared to the size of Gainesville and is not mentioned in that article. There are other colleges in Gainesville and some are mentioned in the wiki article but like Santa Fe, they don't belong in the lead. I think I would prefer that the lead talk about the economic impact of UF rather than just say it's a college town because that can mean anything. Even our Wikipedia article on college towns is vague. Our Cambridge MA article does not call it a college town yet both MIT and Harvard are there and stats are similar to Gainesville. Sorry for errors and no linking, editing on mobile. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 05:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
You are saying Santa Fe is tiny compared to Gainesville? Santa Fe has 22,000+ students and Gainesville has a population of 130+ thousand, and alachua county has a population of 270+ thousand. Either way it does have a large impact. And UF has an even larger impact. It doesn't matter what the exact definition of college town is, Gainesville most certainly is one either way. If just Santa Fe and UF's students total to more than half Gainesville's population and more than 1/4 of alachua county, and that's not even including the 27,000 faculty at UF, which if added would make it over 1/3 of alachua county's population, then I would say it is a college town. That belongs in the lead because the colleges have a major impact on the city. That is not debatable. Why are you trying to pretend as if you know about a city that you obviously don't live in? BobRoberts14 (talk) 10:05, 11 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
I changed the wording from "Gainesville is a college town, being home to the University of Florida and Santa Fe College," to "Gainesville is home to the University of Florida and Santa Fe College, with much of the city's population and economy revolving around the colleges," because that is an obvious fact. The source stating it is a "college town" also proves that, since college town generally means a city that is affected mostly by its colleges. Gainesville is a college town, end of story. I do not understand why you are so keen on debating that it isn't a college town. BobRoberts14 (talk) 10:14, 11 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
I changed it again, so now it just says that "Gainesville is home to the University of Florida and Santa Fe College, with around one third of the city working at the University of Florida or UF Health." instead of mentioning the economic impact or stating that it is a "college town". I also cited a source that backs up the number of people who work for UF and UF Health. Does that make it less controversial? BobRoberts14 (talk) 10:39, 11 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
Please indent your replies so that is easy to follow. Also, I understand that you are new to editing Wikipedia, but you need to take a step back and stop being combative. Take my edits as good faith. And also, please read about sourcing material that Meters directed you to previously. It doesn't matter that you think it is an "obvious fact" that Gainesville is a college town. A reliable source needs to be provided. Now on to your most recent edits. That source that you provided is already in the article so it's bad form to duplicate it (again, read the instructions on how to source material). The source also states the amount of jobs available in Gainesville but does not give any indication as to where the people who have those jobs live. You seem to be conflating the jobs available with a portion of Gainesville's population. This is just not accurate. Also, this source has no data regarding Santa Fe college. That could possible be because the main campus of Santa Fe college is not within the city limits of Gainesville (see http://www.cityofgainesville.org/Portals/0/plan/Maps/OfficialStreetMap.pdf). They do have extensions that are within the city limits but they are small. When I have time later on, I will update the lead again. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 14:58, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Your edits aren't in good faith. They are foolish and show that you know nothing about Gainesville. Santa Fe is within the city limits, end of story. It is not a small campus, since it has 22,000 students. I've been to Gainesville, and to Santa Fe. Stop trying to "fix" things when you are not even knowledgeable about the city. When the source mentions jobs, it is talking about their locations in Gainesville, and people who live in Gainesville. UF Health has offices outsside of Gainesville, but the source isn't talking about that. The only one who is combative and that needs to step back is you. If you don't know about a location, don't go trying to edit everything on their page. If you think Santa Fe isn't in Gainesville, you shouldn't be editing this article.BobRoberts14 (talk) 16:36, 11 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
BobRoberts14, You are being disruptive. You have no idea where I live or what I know but really it doesn't matter because what matters is what I can document. The main campus of Santa Fe College is not within the city limits of Gainesville. I have provided a map. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 20:31, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
PopularOutcast I couldn't care less. You do not live in Gainesville. Santa Fe is within the city limits, anyone with a real map can easily discover that. https://www.sfcollege.edu/ their official website literally says "located in Gainesville, Florida," and if you just check google maps, https://www.google.com/maps/place/Santa+Fe+College/@29.6922492,-82.4651963,13.96z/data=!4m8!1m2!2m1!1ssanta+fe+college!3m4!1s0x88e8a38ab879b9bb:0x5207fba83d1cc61a!8m2!3d29.681372!4d-82.433295 it says 3000 NW 83 St, Gainesville, FL 32606, because it is located in Gainesville. Stop being disruptive and trying to edit a page about a city that you know nothing about.BobRoberts14 (talk) 20:35, 11 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
BobRoberts14, the mailing address of a place says nothing about the actual city locality. For instance most addresses in unincorporated Miami-Dade county are listed with a Miami address yet they are not within the city limits of Miami. That occurs all over the United States. You are welcome to compare the map you linked to the the official map of Gainesville which I linked. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 20:41, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
PopularOutcast You can try to say that "technically" Santa Fe isn't within Gainesville city limits, but if the college itself, and every article I have ever seen that mentions the college, states that it is in Gainesville, then I believe it is in Gainesville. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gainesville,+FL/@29.6990368,-82.3438247,13z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88e6202169bf2c2b:0x80e7795d28108d96!8m2!3d29.6516344!4d-82.3248262 shows that it is about three blocks outside of the city limits. Who cares? Anyone who knows about it would still consider it in Gainesville, since it is less than a mile outside the boundaries and is affected by the city. So my point is, everyone says that it is in Gainesville because it is extremely close to the city, and therefore it can be said that Santa Fe is in Gainesville. BobRoberts14 (talk) 20:46, 11 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

Consider the University of California, Davis which literally has "Davis" in its official name and yet is located in unincorporated parts of Yolo County and Solano County the outside of Davis city limits. See how that article accurately and encyclopedically deals with that apparent contradiction. See also Davis, California which makes two things clear: Davis is a college town, and the university itself is located outside the city limits. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:32, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

As he said, just because a college isn't exactly within the city limits, doesn't mean it can't be considered part of that city. Santa Fe is literally a few blocks, less than a mile, outside the city limits. Its campus stretches into the city as well, but not all of it is within the boundaries. It has 22,000+ students, and many of them live in Gainesville. Also, it is indisputable, based on evidence provided later in the article, that UF has over 56,000 students, over 27,000 faculty, and that UF health has over 12,000 employees. This totals to around 100,000 with UF alone, and over 123,000 with UF and Santa Fe's students, plus its approximate 1000 faculty (as stated in :https://www.sfcollege.edu/staff/index). That is why I consider it to be a college town. But, I will make sure to find sources to back up my claims when I add them to the article. BobRoberts14 (talk) 07:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

PopularOutcast I added a source that states "Gainesville [is] one of the best college cities...", and it has links to research done by WalletHub. And because Cullen agreed that Santa Fe College can be considered a part of Gainesville, I included that as well. Also, you said earlier that Cambridge is not considered a college town, but it most certainly is, with even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_college_towns listing it and citing a source http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/10/20/collegetown I also found a source stating that Gainesville is home to Santa Fe, and the source also says that Gainesville is a college town http://www.collegeranker.com/features/best-college-towns/ BobRoberts14 (talk) 07:16, 12 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

Very impressive statistics, but none of them have to do with the issue being discussed, which would be identical if the schools were twice the size or half the size. The issue here is accuracy in presenting the location of the main Santa Fe university campus. There is nothing scandalous or negative in reporting that the main campus is not within the city limits. Are you resisting accuracy?
I really object to you mischaracterizing my comments, BobRoberts14. I pointed to two articles about UC Davis, both of which make it clear that the campus is outside the city limits, and you are trying to call me your ally in saying that Santa Fe is within Gainesville city limits? That is pretty bizarre. Yes, the main UC Davis campus is within a few blocks of the Davis city limits and has some minor facilities within the city limits. But the main campus is outside the city limits and our relevant articles make that clear. So should this one. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:28, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Once again, those statistics were to show that Gainesville is a college town, as were the sources. I was talking to PopularOutcast, who said that Gainesville is not a college town. Also, those sources also say that Santa Fe College is located within Gainesville, as does their own website https://www.sfcollege.edu/ You would know this if you actually checked the sources. They show that Gainesville is a college town, and that Santa Fe is located in Gainesville. I wasn't mischaracterizing your statements, I was stating that your example shows a college doesn't have to be completely within city limits to be "located" in that city. Santa Fe has a large portion of its campus within city limits, so even though some of it is outside, it is within blocks of the city, so it is still considered located in Gainesville. BobRoberts14 (talk) 07:39, 12 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
Those statistics have completely to do with the issue discussed, since they show that Gainesville is a college town with a massive population of college workers and students. Did you read the title of this section Cullen328? It isn't just about Santa Fe, it is mainly about Gainesville being a college town. BobRoberts14 (talk) 07:41, 12 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
You began this thread by stating "Santa Fe College is most certainly in Gainesville", an assertion which is factually inaccurate. Every intelligent person knows that mailing addresses do not correlate with city limits. All I am asking for is scrupulous accuracy in article content. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 08:18, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Cullen328 No, that assertion is factually correct. Not the entirety, but a large portion of the campus is located within city limits. All you need to do is check a map with the city limits and look at Santa Fe's location to know that. So because much of the campus is located within the city limits, and the parts that aren't are located within less than a mile, I can say that Santa Fe is located in Gainesville. Again, have you read a single one of the sources I cited? Every single one states that Santa Fe is located in Gainesville. The mailing address is irrelevant if you are an "intelligent person" (to quote you) and know how to check a map and read any article on the college. BobRoberts14 (talk) 08:27, 12 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
Actually, if you check a map, you'll see that NONE of the campus is located within the Gainesville city limits. This map comes from the City of Gainesville's own website. The blue line is the city border. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 15:34, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
BobRoberts14, I've seen your recent edits and I question that validity of some of the sources. You can't just find stuff on the web and say it's a source. Sources need to be researched. But my problem right now is that you seem to keep shifting what the argument is. It seems that now you are arguing that Gainesville is a college town because both UF and Santa Fe are in it. Just no. Read the article on the history of Santa Fe College and you will see that it came into existence way after Gainesville was a "college town" and was created because people in the area needed a college (you know, those people that have nothing to do with the university).
I don't have a problem with calling Gainesville a college town. My edit here [1] was because the source that you added (incorrectly) did not include any employment information about Santa Fe which I posited was likely because Santa Fe's main campus is not within the city limits.
You commented on my page and then edited the Gainesville page but did not include the actually good references that Meters provided. You can use either one for the college town of the lead but Santa Fe college should not be in the lead for a multitude of reasons. It *should* be in the article because there are campuses in Gainesville but it is not important enough for the lead. The reference that you provided about the college town is not a good reference for a "college town". The reference summarizes a ranking by another source and those rankings aren't about college towns they are about how nice it is to live in the cities that have the colleges. Other towns that were listed at wallet hub included places that are not dominated by a college.
As I stated on my talk page, this is just a colossal waste of time. Please help instead of hinder. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 15:06, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
I mean, even though I was wrong initially and didn't know about how to properly source and get consensus, I was right when I stated that Gainesville is a college town. You were the one who then said that "Even our Wikipedia article on college towns is vague. Our Cambridge MA article does not call it a college town," even though Cambridge is obviously a college town, and so is Gainesville. I'm sorry for not knowing what I was doing and arguing, but as to Gainesville being a college town, I am correct. You are partially right in saying that Santa Fe isn't in Gainesville, since its entire campus isn't, but a large portion of Santa Fe is in Gainesville, and the parts that aren't are all within a mile of the city limits. But if you are really going to argue with me putting it in the lede, I will not as of now. BobRoberts14 (talk) 00:46, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
BobRoberts14, you might want to take a look at WP:REDACT. Generally it's not good form to change your comments on talk pages, especially when you substantially change them after a good amount of time has passed. I am not upset about it, and, of course, nothing is ever really gone, but for future reference you might want to take a look at the article that I linked. The article shows you how to deal with previous comments that you want deleted or changed. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 00:56, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
PopularOutcast Yeah I will check it out. I didn't think it mattered, since you had already read it and anyone can just check the history, but I wanted to change what I said because my initial comment was rude and uncalled for. BobRoberts14 (talk) 01:06, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14

Yikes, I question BobRoberts14's edits even without trying to be bitey but saying but as to Gainesville being a college town, I am correct screams WP:IMRIGHT. We are not discussing intelligence, we are discussing reliable sources for statements on here and applying the guidelines for Wikipedia. I would say including "college town" is a poor lede as the lede is to summarize the information present. Gainesville is certainly more than UF as presented in this article, regardless of the city containing a great extent of UF. I think any city article probably has a better lede that does not focus on the colleges it serves. I do warn competence is required and you need to understand the policies and why this discussion is taking place. Again, it's not a battle of wits. We're all here to contribute. – The Grid (talk) 20:28, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Almost everyone here agreed that Gainesville is a College Town, it was just the sources and whether Santa Fe is in Gainesville that was contentious. Gainesville mostly revolves around UF, with the school creating "more than 100,000 jobs"[1] and having more than 50,000 students. BobRoberts14 (talk) 20:32, 13 June 2019 (UTC)BobRoberts14
That source you cited for 100,000 jobs created explicitly says those jobs are throughout the state. And while most UF employees are based at the main campus, not all are. - Donald Albury 01:58, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Yeah I saw that, thanks for correcting my edit. I changed it to the number of UF employees, since they work in Gainesville at the campus. Bob Roberts 02:00, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
BobRoberts14, I already mentioned that you can't cite the same thing twice in a page using a full citation. It messes with the bibliography/references section. You need to use a named reference to point to the other citation.
In addition, the lead is now worse - it makes it seem like Gainesville is just the University of Florida and the grammar is not great. I feel like we are on the same roller coaster again. You can't do original research and synthesize information. It is incorrect to state that the university has a major impact on the city because of the number of students and the employment. The university impacts the surrounding community in a myriad of ways, from skewing the county's politics to the left to raising crime rates to attracting homeless people to the city. Why aren't those other things included in the lead? Why are these specific numbers so important to you to tell a story of the city? The story they tell is not an accurate portrayal of the city of Gainesville and is myopic. Note that the two numbers you state are accurate but would overlap as many of the students are also employees of the university. Last, making Gainesville seem like it is only about the university disenfranchises a large portion of the population. This article is about the city, not the university.
Please look around Wikipedia at how other "college towns" handle their lead, e.g. Rome, Georgia, Bozeman, Montana, Cambridge, Massachusetts.
I am going to change the lead back to what it was before this all started since your edits keep getting questioned. Let's all work on getting it in better shape here on the talk page in a separate section. It definitely needs expanding.
P.S. Just want to give you an example of another thing that could be in the lead but some may argue should not be in the lead - Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. Petty is probably more well known than UF. He's known all around the world. If all that was in the lead was info about the city's population and that Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers were from the city, what impression would a reader be left with? PopularOutcasttalk2me! 04:41, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Florida, University of. "03 » Study finds UF has $8.76 billion economic impact on Florida » University of Florida". Archived from the original on July 1, 2014. Retrieved 20 June 2016. Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (help)
You don't make sense whatsoever trying to say that Tom Petty has more of an effect on Gainesville than UF. Bob Roberts 04:44, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
BobRoberts14, again, I am going to undo your edits. When all the editors disagree with you, you are the problem. Your talk page is littered with editors having issues with you and your edits. I have gone out of my way to assist you. If you revert me, I will report you again. I have created a section to discuss the lead. You are welcome to contribute there and until we come to a consensus, please stop editing the lead.
Other editors, I need help here. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 04:56, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Again, you somehow know nothing about Gainesville, but want to edit the page over and over again. That information was not something that "all the editors disagreed with", I literally just added it to the article. Stop acting like you know everything about the city. You don't. What I added was true, you're just removing it because it isn't something you like. That doesn't mean it is bad for the article. Bob Roberts 05:01, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Other editors should just find sources to prove your claims wrong. "Santa Fe is not that large of a college", "Gainesville is not a college town", etc., are all incorrect opinions that you hold. I won't revert this current edit, but I don't appreciate you reverting my edits repeatedly. Bob Roberts 05:04, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
I have edit warnings because I have been editing for about three days and am brand new, so I have made multiple mistakes. Bob Roberts 05:06, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Every one of them concerns a single sentence, just like this one does. In the Supreme Court one, I have resolved it and my edit stands. In the other article there is still a debate, but five people are on my side and about three on the other. How is that relevant to this page? Bob Roberts 05:42, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
@BobRoberts14: You were advised to read WP:REDACT two days ago, and yet yesterday you changed your edit from the day befopre without leaving any indication that you had done so, and then got mad at User:Meters when he reverted that edit today. Please abide by our talk page guidelines. You also have accused other editors of not knowing about Gainesville. Please be advised that personal knowledge about a subject is not required for editing an article about that subject. Everything in a Wikipedia article must be verifiable from reliable sources, so having personal knowledge about a subject does not give anyone a privileged position in editing, except insofar as it helps them locate reliable sources. That said, I have lived in Gainesville a total of 23 years now, and have three degrees from the University of Florida, but I oppose your attempts to overemphasize the role of the university in Gainesville. - Donald Albury 22:52, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
It's not that I was mad Donald Albury, it's just that I edited my original comment for a good reason. Part of it was unnecessarily rude. But Meters reverted my edit for no good reason. Also, I am not saying that they all know nothing about the city, I was saying that it is a college town, which almost anyone who has lived here would agree on. I'm sorry if I was trying to say that they didn't know what they were talking about, what I meant is that people in the city would agree that UF has a major impact. Some of my original edits to the page were definitely incorrect though. Bob Roberts 23:11, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
You were indeed reverted for a good reason. Again, see WP:REDACT. This smacks of WP:IDHT We're not pointing you to all of these links for fun. We expect you to read them and learn to edit properly by following the instructions on those pages. Tolerance for a new editor will only go so far. If you continue to ignore all of the advice editors are trying to give you this will become a WP:CIR issue for which you may end up blocked. Meters (talk) 00:41, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

To discuss changes to lead[edit]

First, let's talk about things that you think should be in the lead. I'll start. Add more. Comment below each one on what specifics of the topic should be in there or if you think it shouldn't be the lead. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 04:47, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

  • County seat information
  • Population
  • University of Florida
  • Some history
I believe the sentence "The University has a large effect on the city's economy, with over 27,000 employees and 56,000 students," belongs in the lead, since it shows just how many students and faculty there are at the University. Again, I can't access certain websites at the moment, so I need someone else to source the claim that it has a large effect on the economy, and the number of employees and students. It is undeniable that UF has a major economic impact on the city. Bob Roberts 04:50, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Nice, you edit war to include this sentence, and you want us to source it for you? Making statements such as "is is undeniable that..." do not help your case. You started off by attempting to claim that the majority of the city's population either worked at or was a student at the university. I believe you have already been pointed to such links as WP:RS WP:V WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. If you still don't understand what's wrong with unsubstantiated claims such as that, or why your opinion that it is an unenviable fact and that it must be mentioned in the lead are not good enough, this is not going to end well.
We already mention in the lead that the university is very large and is in Gainesville. In my opinion anything beyond that belongs in the education and economy sections rather than the lead. and you'll notice that we already cover much of this in the Education and Economy sections. In fact, the claims about the university contributions to the city's economy are not sourced there either. We have a source for it being the top employer ion the area, and a source to show much it contributes to Florida's economy, but not the city's. That's not the same thing. A properly sourced mention of how many students it has at the Gainesville campus would be fine in the educations section (we already have a sourced mention of the local staffing levels) but it isn't needed in the lead.. Meters (talk) 09:17, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
I also think that Santa Fe should be in the lead, since the school has over 22,000 students and 1,000 faculty. Bob Roberts 04:52, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
That belongs in the education section, not the lead. It's not one of the top 10 employers in the area per the source we already cite, so it certainly does not need to be in the lead. And any mention and claims would need to be properly sourced. For example, you seem to be claiming that all of these students and staff are in Gainesville, but Santa Fe College states that there are four college centers which are not in Gainesville. So, how many of these students and staff are in Gainesville? Meters (talk) 08:51, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
It still has 22,000 students. Although the entirety of Santa Fe College is not contained within the city limits, some of it is, and the parts that aren't are still within less than a few miles of the city. It's faculty isn't what is important, what matters is its students. Even though all of them do no live in the city, many still do, and a large number also work there. It's a major college that is almost always considered a part of the city, whether or not it is actually within the city limits. Check any article about it, and they say "Santa Fe is a college in Gainesville, Florida" Bob Roberts 07:10, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Please read what I wrote. It does not belong in the lead. If anywhere, put it in the education section,with sources, and don't make any claims about how many of the students live in Gainesville or how important it is to the city unless you have reliable sources saying that. How many times do we have to tell you this?
And if the faculty is not important and you don't want to include that why did you mention it? You still have not answered my question about how many of the college's students are actually in Gainesville or the area. You cannot simply claim all of the college's students are at the Gainesville campus. Meters (talk) 20:17, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
You keep saying "you claim this without sourcing it" even though I never claimed such a thing. Obviously all the students don't live in Gainesville, and I never said they do. Bob Roberts 20:39, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
You need to learn how direct quotations work. You claim I made that direct quote, but I don't see it anywhere. Where exactly did I say "you claim this without sourcing it"?
Anyone with a brain knows how quotations work. Read two three lines above this message, and in numerous other places. I was not quoting you directly, that was a generalization of dozens of your messages, such as "If you still don't understand what's wrong with unsubstantiated claims such as that," "you seem to be claiming that all of these students and staff are in Gainesville," etc. Why do you enjoy arguing over something so stupid? Bob Roberts 05:03, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Apparently, you do not understand how quotes work. You falsely claimed that that was direst quotation of my post. Since you admit that it is not a direct quote it should not be in quotations Meters (talk) 05:16, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Apparently, you do not understand how quotation marks word. Not everything is a direct quote. I used quotes because I included dialogue, which needed quotation marks. In case you didn't realize, whenever something is in " ", it does not have to be a direct quote. Maybe you should look up the uses of quotation marks. Tell me which is correct: You basically said "johnny is my friend", or you basically said johnny is my friend? Bob Roberts 05:19, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

What do you think about a lead like this?
Gainesville is the county seat and largest city in Alachua County, Florida, in the southeastern United States. The US Census Bureau estimated Gainesville’s population at 133,857 in 2018, a 7.4% increase from 2010. it is the principal municipality of the Gainesville metropolitan statistical area, a region with 288,212 residents in 2018, and the largest city in the North Central Florida region. Gainesville is the home to the University of Florida, the nation’s fifth-largest university campus by enrollment.
I took a look at a number of other city articles and the best of them seem to follow a similar pattern for their lead sections. I'm not married to this by any means; it's merely an idea. Comments and suggestions welcome. CThomas3 (talk) 18:17, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

I think it would be better as "Gainesville is the county seat and largest city in Alachua County, Florida. The US Census Bureau estimated Gainesville’s population at 133,857 in 2018, a 7.4% increase from 2010. It is the principal municipality of the Gainesville metropolitan statistical area, and the largest city in the North Central Florida region. The Gainesville Metropolitan Area had 288,212 residents in 2018. The city is also the home to the University of Florida, the nation’s fifth-largest university campus by enrollment. I previously made an edit similar to this but PopularOutcast decided to revert it, because they think they are right and that I am wrong. Donald Arbury also previously reverted my edits. Bill Williams (talk) 18:23, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
I like Cthomas3's suggestion but would not include in the southeastern United States. I would tweak it a bit to say Gainesville is the county seat and the most populous city in Alachua County, Florida and the North Central Florida region. The US Census Bureau estimated Gainesville's population at 133,857 in 2018, a 7.4% increase from 2010. It is the principal municipality of the Gainesville metropolitan statistical area, a region with 288,212 residents in 2018. Gainesville is home to the University of Florida—the nation’s fifth-largest university campus by enrollment. It still needs to be expanded though to include some history and maybe information about the music scene and tree canopy. The article would need some expansion about the trees (it has been designated a tree city but on top of that the city of Gainesville enforces statutes about tree removal and planting). For the last two I might add Gainesville is known for its urban forest, music scene, and Shands hospital (a level one trauma and teaching hospital). Not married to any of this either. ;o) PopularOutcasttalk2me! 19:32, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
The last topics are too minor to be in the lead. It's not known for its music scene, urban forest, or Shands, since the first is debatable, the second is common in many cities, and the third is not unique to Gainesville. I think a better lead would be "Gainesville is the county seat and largest city in Alachua County, Florida. It is also the largest city in the North Central Florida region. The US Census Bureau estimated Gainesville’s population at 133,857 in 2018, a 7.4% increase from 2010. It is the principle city in the Gainesville metropolitan statistical area, a region with 288,212 people in 2018. Gainesville is the home to the University of Florida, the nation’s fifth-largest university campus by enrollment." You don't need the first sentence to be very long. That's not how it is in most Wikipedia articles. Bill Williams (talk) 19:39, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
As for the music scene, I guess you haven't heard Marty Jourard talk.[1] ;) There was also an article in Vice that speaks to the music scene in Gainesville.[2] Gainesville is in the Mid-Florida Hammock Belt, which explains the variety of native trees in the area, although I have really had to dig around to find references to the hammock belt. Our Wikipedia article, UF Health Shands Hospital, states that Shands is "the flagship teaching hospital" of "the most comprehensive academic health center in the Southeast". These probably don't belong in the lead, but the music scene and Shands, at least, have some notability beyond Gainesville. - Donald Albury 20:33, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
@Donald Albury: I know about all of those, I just don't think they are notable enough to belong in the lead. There are many other cities with far more forest, and Shands has locations outside of Gainesville. Also, the music isn't one of the biggest parts of Gainesville, but of course it matters. Bill Williams (talk) 20:38, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Jourard, Marty (2016). "The Rock and Roll Roots of Gainesville, Florida 1964–1976". Retrieved June 18, 2019.
  2. ^ Lima, Dante (February 28, 2013). "Stop Speaking Crap About the Florida Music Scene". Vice. Retrieved June 18, 2019.
The city takes their tree cover seriously.[2] Also there are only 3,400 communities that are designated a tree city. 175 of them are in Florida which is higher than you'd think the average would be for each state. However, seeing what it takes to become a tree city and the other cities that are in the list, I am now convinced it means nothing. Still, I think the article should be expanded to include the urban forest info ... 47% tree cover is fairly significant. Definitely the music scene and Shands should stay. Just the fact that Shands is the only Level I trauma hospital in all the surrounding counties is enough but as a tertiary hospital it also brings in people from the whole area to see specialists. Thanks for the input. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 02:06, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
I included 'in the southeastern United States' because we never actually state where Florida is. True, it's pretty common knowledge, but there are a lot of English speakers in Europe and Asia who might not know. But, if it's truly redundant information, I'm okay with leaving it out. Regarding adding other details, I would have to say I'm more of a minimalist when it comes to lead sections. My general philosophy of sorts is to imagine the following scenario; you are watching the news with a friend, and your topic is mentioned. He knows absolutely nothing about it and he turns to you and asks what the heck it is. He has absolutely no interest in the subject, so he'll get mad if you drone on incessantly about it, so you stick to the absolute essentials: what is it, and what are the most important facts about it. He'll appreciate your brevity, and maybe you'll pique his interest enough for him to check out more details on his own (the rest of the article). :) CThomas3 (talk) 04:45, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Ooh, yes, I get what you are saying about the southeastern United States. So I wanted to see how other Wikipedia pages handled it. I went to random world cities and re-rolled a few time and chose cities that I don't know where they are located within the country. None of the five that I looked at told me where in the country they were and most were B-class articles. Maybe what we can do instead is fiddle with the map in the infobox. In addition to the static picture of Florida and Alachua county, perhaps we can do that thing that allows people to pinpoint the map on the country, continent, world. There's an example at São Paulo and the template for settlement says to look at at Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania. What do you think? If not I think we need to reword it. I took it out not because of redundancy (and I do apologize for not explaining why), but because it sounded weird and it was hard to tell to what that prepositional phrase belonged to. I guess it doesn't matter which since both are in the southeastern US but it made me pause to consider which. I always think that not making a people pause is good. If that map is not a solution y'all like, perhaps the sentence can be reworded to Gainesville is located in the southeastern United States; it is the county seat and the largest city in Alachua County, Florida and the North Central Florida region.
I agree that leads shouldn't be too long. I don't think that adding a couple of sentences to a separate paragraph would be too burdensome. If we do add stuff about the music scene and the hospital, I would move the UF sentence down to a new paragraph and this info after. Looking at the city's history, there isn't much notable to add to the lead but maybe I am missing something. I think the world learned of it because of the serial killings (though that isn't in the history) but that's kind of old news now and Gainesville is known for so much more. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 19:26, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Thank you, PopularOutcast, for looking that up! I like the Sao Paulo map idea. I actually do agree that the "southeastern United States" thing is a little on the awkward side, so by no means do we need to include it, especially if we have an alternate method of helping people put everything into context. LilBillWilliams, what do you think? CThomas3 (talk) 03:44, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Although I think infoboxes are getting a bit unwieldy with all the information being shoehorned into them, a pushpin map showing the location of Florida in the U.S. would be a good way of providng that information without adding to the lead. If we do add a pushpin map, then the Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania article is a good model. - Donald Albury 11:38, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
In a way, being pressed for space in printed publications allowed for a reduction of clutter and words. I love well done infoboxes Donald, but not on mobile or any smallish screen. I will add the push pin map and see if there is comment from those that watch the page but don't read the talk page. Thanks for the input so far. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 11:49, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
I was discussing the music scene in Gainesville with some downtown bartenders. They agree that the Fest is a big thing that brings a lot of people to Gainesville but they are often stumped on what live music venues to recommend for patrons that are from out of town. I then tried to find some information online about the scene and it seems that there was a scene at some point but a lot of the venues that played live music have closed since then. The section in the article about the music scene stops in the 2000ss. It's dated. There isn't much about for the 2010s. So before we add something about the music scene to the lead, we may need to expand that part of the article. I am not really into music so maybe someone more into it could expand. What do y'all think? PopularOutcasttalk2me! 20:25, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
Greetings, PopularOutcast. I completely agree with your thought process. I unfortunately don't have the time at the moment to expand the section myself, but I think that is an excellent idea. CThomas3 (talk) 21:50, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
Cool, thanks. Let's see if anyone volunteers for it. I also know someone who used to do promotion for bands in Gainesville (as recently as last year). If I can get in touch with him, he may be able to give me some leads on where to research. He moved out of the area. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 23:45, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
As long as we are discussing the article, someone changed the picture from the Hipp to the Seagle building a short while ago [3]. The quality of the current image is not great. I don't have an objection to the display of the Seagle building but I'd like a better picture and I can't find one. The Hipp is older than the Seagle building so it can be argued that it is more recognizable and it is also at the heart of downtown. I am not sure that the Seagle building stands out that much anymore. It doesn't look like it was built in 1937 nor is it obvious that it's the tallest building in Gainesville (is that still true?). Should something else be the picture for Gainesville? PopularOutcasttalk2me! 12:28, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Again, I do not think Shands by itself is really that notable to mention. You said Santa Fe isn't really that important because it's just a college that was needed for new students, and same goes with Shands. People needed hospital care, so they built new hostipals. UF is different because many of the students come from outside of the Gainesville metro area, but your reasoning for Santa Fe needs to apply to Shands as well. And again, Gainesville is not known for its music scene. I know there are some musicians who were born in Gainesville, such as Tom Petty, but the city itself is not known for its music. That cannot really be said about almost any city, since having good music normally means you are well known for other, larger things. Neither should be added to the lead. As for the image, the Hippodrome is not that recognizable as something in Gainesville either, but I think Century Tower (the bell tower) at UF, and Ben Hill Griffin Stadium, are both recognizable places that could make for a better image. I'm just giving those as examples because I saw them both later in the article and have seen both in person. Bill Williams (talk) 12:45, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

FYI: LilBillWilliams is now blocked from editing the Gainesville page. The block is not in perpetuity but I am not sure when it lifts. Just wanted to let y'all know in case you are waiting on a reply from this editor. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 19:29, 20 June 2019 (UTC)