Talk:George Floyd protests in Minneapolis–Saint Paul

BLP Crime issues

Per BLPCRIME, we do not put content in articles that suggest a specific person has committed a crime. Even if we have sources that make that claim. In order to say someone commit a crime a conviction must be secured. Since there has been no conviction for anyone being "Umbrella Man", we cannot say that any particular person did these things. --Kyohyi (talk) 15:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Cup Foods

George Floyd was killed outside the Cup Foods store at the intersection of East 38th Street and Chicago Avenue. It is an independent store that should not be confused with the grocery chain Cub Foods. The secondary sources cited correctly reference Cup Foods. Minnemeeples (talk) 19:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Number of deaths

The Star Tribune concluded on July 21, 2020, that there were "at least two deaths", in reference to Calvin Horton Jr. and Oscar Lee Stewart Jr., during the initial period of unrest. Both deaths occurred at places of heavy rioting and looting. No secondary sources have confirmed the total number of deaths to be three that I can find.

I think the confusion about the number of deaths may stem from a few primary sources:

WCCO reported on May 29, 2020, during the initial period of unrest, that Minneapolis police recovered of a woman's body at 17th And Bryant avenues. According to the source, "This overnight incident may be the second death connected with the nights of unrest following the death of George Floyd on Memorial Day" (emphasis added). No reputable secondary sources since May 29 have said this particular death was connected to the unrest, nor have they counted it in a total. Furthermore, this source should be treated as a primary source as it occurred too close to the event, and it was speculative in its reporting even on May 29.

Some confusion over the number of deaths may be due to a 61-page report released by the Minnesota State Senate Republicans in October 2020. The report, which is a primary source, said on Page 2 that the "riots caused the deaths of at least three Minnesotans". The sources within the report cited for this argument are MPR, which only discusses Horton Jr.'s death, and Time, which only discusses an unnamed person's death due to fire (later revealed to be Stewart Jr.). On Page 6, the report notes a third death, that of the women's found in a car at 17th and Bryant Avenues, and cites "Commander Gerlicher’s Written Testimony" for the death, another primary source. Gerlicher includes the woman's death as part of a timeline of events, but doesn't say it is related, and he doesn't add up a total number of deaths.

It takes some pretty shaky original research to conclude there were three deaths. I think it is best to stick with at least two, Horton and Stewart, and leave it at that. Minnemeeples (talk) 21:27, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

I think three is proper considering the facts of the reports. You cannot dispute something if you have no basis, and it has been reported by media outlets and cited as well FactsNotNarratives (talk) 16:17, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I think I laid out exactly why three deaths is not supported by reputable sources. Media outlets are not reporting three total deaths. The Star Tribune, as recently as July 21, 2021, said, "Stewart's death is one [of] two confirmed as connected to the riots in the wake of Floyd's murder by Derek Chauvin...." (emphasis added) The burden is on the editor above to identify multiple, reputable sources that are more recent that report three total deaths. A strictly partisan report isn't sufficient when media continues to report two total deaths. Minnemeeples (talk) 18:44, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Boogaloo boys phrasing and section

Why are we trying so hard to make it seem like the riots were done by the Boogaloo boys and that they were responsible for the unrest. https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/12/10/twin-cities-man-first-to-be-sentenced-for-arson-from-may-unrest - from the source for the first sentence in the section dedicated to Boogaloo boys.

"A third alleged Boogaloo member, Ivan Harrison Hunter of Boerne, Texas, is facing a federal riot charge after investigators say he fired a rifle at the 3rd Precinct police station as the building burned."

So a guy sees a police station burned by Antifa and BLM protesters, he shoots at it and we conclude he started the riot? Please explain. Pformenti (talk) 05:47, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

The article is pretty clear about who has been charged with, or pled guilty to, acts of property destruction. The purpose of Wikipedia is to provide neutral, encyclopedic coverage of a topic based on reputable secondary sources. Several sources discussed the organized effort of several self-described Boogaloo Movement members to incite violence in Minneapolis who then bragged about their role in the destruction afterward, and then some of which pled guilty to federal charges. The case against Hunter is outstanding and his name is not mentioned in the article. Cited sources (e.g., Star Tribune Dec. 20, 2020) don't support your personal views that Antifa was responsible. Minnemeeples (talk) 16:03, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Minnemeeples Is somebody who keeps vandalizing the page and not being neutral FactsNotNarratives (talk) 02:40, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Also if he keeps doing it I will just create a new page ! FactsNotNarratives (talk) 10:04, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

• Has all mention of the Boogaloo boys been removed from this page? There was a conviction yesterday [[1]]. What's up? Kire1975 (talk) 20:47, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
  • Kire1975, see Aftermath of the George Floyd protests in Minneapolis–Saint Paul. It is discussed extensively there. Minnemeeples (talk) 00:34, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

RfC: Shortening the lede for this article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should the lede for this article be shortened to a more streamlined, easy-to-follow length? Love of Corey (talk) 01:42, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - I personally believe a lede should be a maximum of four paragraphs if it has to be in-depth. Love of Corey (talk) 01:42, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment After reading the article top to bottom, I made some bold edits to address it. Some content had only been discussed in the lede and other content repeated some sentences below, almost verbatim. I moved down stuff from the lede to the appropriate section of the article and streamlined it a bit. Minnemeeples (talk) 00:38, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move-locking the article

I think the article should be locked in terms of moving until a consensus can be reached on what exactly the title should look like. I think I've seen the title being moved around a few times by this point. Love of Corey (talk) 23:22, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand. The title to this article appears to be pretty stable. Are you referring to another article? Minnemeeples (talk) 00:31, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh, wow. I don't know how I missed that. I meant 2020–2021 Minneapolis–Saint Paul racial justice protests. Love of Corey (talk) 05:23, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Split proposed

It is proposed that the sections "Investigations and legal proceedings" and "Short-term effects" move to a new article, Aftermath of the George Floyd riots in Minneapolis–Saint Paul. The article currently has 94,906 characters and 215,056 bytes. As written, aftermath has more weight in the article than the actual events. A split will keep the article content manageable for a reader and put more focus on the protest events and immediate result, and a separate article can address the aftermath of the riots that were largely May 27-30, 2020. Minnemeeples (talk) 20:26, 13 May 2021 (UTC). Minnemeeples (talk) 20:40, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Split complete. See Aftermath of the George Floyd protests in Minneapolis–Saint Paul. Minnemeeples (talk) 02:17, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

RfC at George Floyd protests

I have started a discussion at Talk:George Floyd protests/Archive 2#RfC on Status of George Floyd protests regarding the current status of the George Floyd protests. Your comments are appreciated. Thanks, Anon0098 (talk) 02:16, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Propose changes to include Riots where they are deserved

Instead of claiming the protestors were mostly peaceful and that little violence happened during a protest, I propose a neutral change to include both verbiage of peaceful protestors and Riots. This will make it to where the page is a more accurate reflection of the events that occurred. Some people rioted and Most were peaceful. This will add more validity to the claims of the page FactsNotNarratives (talk) 16:21, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Reliable sources, and Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The beliefs and experiences of editors do not matter." Numerous reliable sources cited in the article describe peaceful protests that emerged after Floyd's death, the situation becoming more tense as protesters and police clashed, rioting in the Minneapolis and Saint Paul area largely over a three-night period from May 27 to 29, and calmer protests continuing after May 30 as the National Guard reached full deployment levels. The article provides plenty of weight to violence, property destruction, and riots (and uses the word "riot" in a header) with many pictures of stuff on fire. There is an aftermath article, Aftermath of the George Floyd protests in Minneapolis–Saint Paul, with even more details about the violence. There are also entire articles dedicated solely to violence during George Floyd protests, such as Violence and controversies during the George Floyd protests. The cited sources as the ones that reported that most individual protest events were peaceful with the rioting mostly happening over a few nights by people with conflicting motives. Minnemeeples (talk) 16:59, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

@Minneemeeples: :If you would please allow me to cite my sources one last time now that I have more information on how this works. I would propose you allow me to make a few changes and if they are not agreed upon after I will leave the page alone, but citing these sources and adding this information will give more validity to the claims on both sides , allowing for neutral ground FactsNotNarratives (talk) 14:02, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

• FactsNotNarratives, you can make your case here on the talk page, not in article space. But I have to tell you, you're skating on thin ice here: your name is suggestive of POV editing, and this strange insistence on inserting "riots" isn't helping much. Drmies (talk) 00:24, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@Drmies: I understand the riots point and I thank you. Please also realize , my username name speaks for facts, not narratives, so calling it suggestive my username of POV editing is actually the opposite. That seems to be your POV FactsNotNarratives (talk) 21:11, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

The history of the events in Minneapolis and elsewhere are still being written. We have to follow reliable sources and be cautious about major changes. Keep in mind that changing the title to include the word "riots" would break a long-standing title for the article, and it would make the article no longer align with the article series (George Floyd protests). I would say that is a major change, which should requires a greater level of consensus than content edits to the body of the article. Also, retrospectives tend to refer to the series of events as protests, rather than riots. E.g., see the New York Times article, "George Floyd Protests: A Timeline". And riots are typically used in reference to a few days of events in Minneapolis, rather than characterizing everything that has happened as part of the George Floyd protest movement locally. Minnemeeples (talk) 21:57, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@Minneemeeples: due to the fact that there has been a consensus not to make a change, and also the points you make, I recant this proposal FactsNotNarratives (talk) 09:43, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Propose Article Header change to Include “Riots”

Due to having a Lede that includes the word riots , I propose a change to the Name header to include the word “Riot” . Including the word “Riots”in the header will allow readers to be informed that this article does include information about the riots that occurred. Many verifiable sources have been cited on this page that Include the word riots. Therefore a a change to the header would be more appropriate. It would also show the views of the minority and majority making it a Neutral change. Without this, the title is only sharing a majority view. Thank you In advance FactsNotNarratives (talk) 14:18, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

The article series is "George Floyd protests". There are several sub articles and lists named "George Floyd protests in _____ "(location). This discussion is better suited George Floyd protests. A subheader in the Minneapolis-Saint Paul article already says, "Protests and riots", for the period that covers May 26 to June 7. One of your edits was to capitalize the words riots, but it is lower case per the Wikipedia:Manual of Style. Riots is already appropriately used here. Minnemeeples (talk) 14:53, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@Minneemeeples: :: I still support and propose this change, a capitalization error still does not negate the rest of of my proposal FactsNotNarratives (talk) 22:09, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@Minneemeeples: please make sure you are using the “reply to” that way the person who your responding to will receive a notification FactsNotNarratives (talk) 23:23, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Proposal to add Ledes

Adding ledes for daytime and nighttime during the time of May 26-30th.

Allowing this change will allow people to make the distinct difference between when protests were peaceful and when protests turned violent. By doing this with cited sources we can confirm daytime protests were peaceful. We can also conclude most nighttime protests were peaceful as well, but that violence mostly occurred during the evening hours My proposal for daytime hours would be during the time of sunrise to sunset, My proposal for Nighttime would sunset until sunrise Thank you in advance for your consideration FactsNotNarratives (talk) 14:35, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

In case I made an error in my proposal title, I will also call them the article Nodes FactsNotNarratives (talk) 14:37, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 22 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: withdrawn by nominator per below original (misplaced) closing statement (closed by non-admin page mover) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 17:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - We have officially agreed to keep this page the way it is. There is enough information talked about in this article that there is no need to change it. SpringField23402 (talk) 16:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

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George Floyd protests in Minneapolis–Saint Paul → 2020 Minneapolis–Saint Paul riots – The reason why I want to move this page to this title is because there's already a page called George Floyd protests, and George Floyd protests in Minnesota. Plus, some of the information on this page is linked to the three day period of rioting that took place between May 27–30 of 2020. This article also talks about arson damage which wasn't caused by the peaceful demonstrations, as well as photos showing scenes of destruction. The title saying "protests" is the part I disagree with, because in my view, a riot is not a protest. So that is why I am requesting this page to be moved. SpringField23402 (talk) 23:45, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - The series of articles is the George Floyd protests. This is been debated several times before and the consensus to is keep it as is. Rioting emanates from civil disorder and may be a form of protest. The article is about events from May 26, 2020, to June 7, 2020. Even the events from just May 27-30 included a mix of peaceful mass demonstrations, riots, and other acts. Minnemeeples (talk) 13:43, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, anyone else? Before we close this case? SpringField23402 (talk) 14:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Please don't just delete this discussion like you did your last move proposal. Follow the Closing instructions. TheSavageNorwegian 15:16, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - I don't think any article should be renamed 2020 Minneapolis-Saint Paul riots. That's not what this article is primarily about. As I said in your last request, if you want this hypothetical page that's limited in scope to only unambiguous rioting to exist, write the Draft yourself and submit it for review. Don't commandeer this article. TheSavageNorwegian 15:16, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I think we have enough evidence that there is no need for this page to be changed. Minnemeeples has a point, this article does talk about not only the protests, but also the three day period of rioting. At first I thought there wasn't enough information, but the more I read the page, there were more sources of the incidents. And TheSavageNorwegian, this page does talk about the violence that occured. If you scroll all the way to the botton, you'll find the information about it. I deeply apologize for not realizing all of this, and creating more troubles than fixing it. I officially declare this page to stay as it is. Case is closed. SpringField23402 (talk) 16:27, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.