Talk:Gun show loophole

EXPERT from POLITIFACT deleted: Wikipedia Bias Caught Red-Handed Once Again

If the purpose of Wikipedia were actually to be informative -- rather than to be a dishonest, biased tool of left-wing activism -- an informative quote published by POLITIFACT would be a jewel of an addition to an article on public discussion about the "Gun Show Loophole"

But the biased activist censoring Wikipedia removed the expert opinion provided:

"There is a huge loophole in federal law, but it isn't for gun shows," UCLA law professor Adam Winkler said. "What is called the gun-show loophole is misnamed. It should be the ‘private sale loophole’ or the ‘background check loophole.’ ... The reason people talk about gun shows is that they are easily accessible marketplaces for people who don't want to be subject to a background check to find non-licensed gun sellers."

When people hear about the gun show loophole they want to look it up and find out more.

It should not matter what your position is on the topic.

Wikipedia should leave the reader more informed -- not radicalized -- about the topic of the gun show loophole.

References

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.74.179 (talk) 01:54, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

bipartisan safer communities act updates

Some recent citations that may be DUE...I'm still not clear on what specific changes are made under this new law, if anyone is interested in helping to clarify that.

WaPo April 2024 " the Justice Department has finalized rules to close a loophole that allowed people to sell firearms online, at gun shows and at other informal venues without conducting background checks on those who purchase them." "The rules clarify who is required to conduct background checks and aims to close what is known as the “gun show loophole” — which refers to the reality that gun-show sellers and online vendors are subject to much looser federal regulations than vendors who sell at bricks-and-mortar stores."

ABC News April 2024 " It requires that anyone who sells guns for profit to have a license and that buyers be subject to a background check, including at firearms shows and flea markets. The administration had been working on the rule since last spring. Once publicized, it will take effect in 30 days

I've only gleaned a few notable bits here, but if anyone has sources with more detailed info as to how this relates to GSL, this would be a good place to discuss them.

Cheers. DN (talk) 16:02, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@DN: Hello! As you know, and as discussed in the article, under federal law, gun dealers are required to have a Federal Firearms License (FFL). When an FFL holder sells a firearm, they're required to do a background check of the buyer, using the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). By contrast, private sales, i.e. sales between individuals, do not require a background check under federal law (though some states do require it). This is the so-called "gun show loophole".

Under the new rule, more people than before will be required to have an FFL if they want to sell any guns. Therefore the effect will be that there will be fewer gun sales conducted without background checks, thus significantly reducing -- some would say closing -- the "gun show loophole". As the New York Times explained, "Dealers have previously been required to join the federal system only if they derived their chief livelihood from selling weapons. The bar is much lower now — the government has to prove only that they sold guns to "predominantly derive a profit" from their actions." And as The Guardian noted, "Intra-family transfers of firearms, or occasional sales to enhance a collection, will not be presumed business transactions, a White House spokesperson said."

This is a very significant development and it definitely should be added to the article. If you look at the "Legislation" section you'll see that there's a paragraph about this from last year, when it was still in the planning stages, but now it's been implemented, and will take effect in less that 30 more days, apparently. So that section could be updated, but, that's a subsection of the "Government studies and positions" section. This has now moved well beyond studies and positions, so it should have a more prominent place in the article, in my view -- maybe in the "Provenance" section, maybe somewhere else. I would also think it should be mentioned in the lead section.

References

— Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

How should this term be labeled?

There appears to have been a bit of back and forth on how this term is described. While it has been labeled as "non-neutral", if there is a point to be made there please provide your sources for or against here. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:45, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Calling it "controversial" does nothing but lead the reader to take a biased position, and leaves out the political context. The ONUS is on you to seek consensus to change from the STATUSQUO, so I am reverting until a new consensus is reached, since this was already discussed at the article's inception. Cheers. DN (talk) 23:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you link to where this was already discussed in depth specifically referring to that term? If not, you risk an edit war and we can involve ANI sanction. Iljhgtn (talk) 00:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Check the archive, and I'm well aware of 3RR, so please keep things civil and don't threaten me. Cheers. DN (talk) 00:13, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

BTW I also suggest avoiding WP:CANVAS, if you are unfamiliar with it. Cheers. DN (talk) 00:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I just noticed your second revert, so I have added an NPOV tag.

What was that you said about about edit warring?... DN (talk) 00:33, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I think that tag is needed for now while we discuss. I appreciate your doing that. Iljhgtn (talk) 00:45, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Iljhgtn This article was able to achieve GA status because we avoided loaded language like what you keep attempting to insert into the LEAD.

You should at least explain how this is an improvement to the LEAD and provide Neutral reliable sources that show term is "controversial" as opposed to political.

Otherwise it shall be reverted back to STATUS QUO, but leaving the tag.

You need a better reason besides "other editors did it too". DN (talk) 01:57, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Iljhgtn, Which sources do you see in the article that justify putting MOS:CONTROVERSIAL in WP:VOICE in the LEAD SENTENCE without thorough discussion and consensus? At this point it just looks like sloppy ORIGINAL RESEARCH put there by a vandal. DN (talk) 12:35, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

There are many such articles, but first I am doing a deep dive on the archive per your suggestion and seeing what, if any, relevant discussions may have previously occurred related to this point. Meanwhile, in response to your comment on my talk page, I would urge you to keep in mind that there is no rush as we work on Wikipedia. We are in the process of building consensus around this term which I believe is demonstrably disputed and therefore some form of new language is necessary in the lead. This isn't going to happen overnight. Thank you for your patience. Iljhgtn (talk) 18:36, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

You are referring to WP:TIND, which is an essay, not a POLICY.

So, in order for us to receive GA status the article had to be stable, which meant all active editors had to agree on the lead. There were many discussion on using the term "controversy". As I recall at one point I was fine with naming the article "Gun Show Loophole controversy". This was untenable however as it was non-neutral and went against MOS:CONTROVERSIAL.

I noticed in your edit summaries you keep referring to the "consensus of the other editors". This seems odd to me. We are not supposed to "represent" other editors without their explicit permission, especially if they are not actively participating. This is akin to WP:SOCK.

Aside from that, no amount of consensus can justify UNDUE and UNSOURCED material. DN (talk) 21:47, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Upon reading the comments above I think there is a case to be made for the term being "controversial".  The phrase "political term" or just "term" based on my research does not entirely capture the loaded nature of the term. (Pun unintended).

Some sources like Politico, and The Hill, refer to the term as "so-called" indirectly calling into question the existence of a "loophole".

Other sources such as CBS News refer to the term as something that "gun control advocates" most often use.

Whereas a Washington Post article features an instance where the take is that there is no "loophole" at all.

I think it is essential to introduce a clarifier in the lead to emphasise that "Gun show loophole" is not SOLELY a "political term".

I'm open to including "controversial" in the introduction, but there are other options to consider as well.

" ... is a political term predominantly used by gun control advocates"

"...is a polemical political term..."

Fenharrow (talk) 09:49, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

@Fenharrow Maybe 10 years ago an argument could be made that it was considered polemic, but in 2024 public surveys have found that it has mostly become a bipartisan issue. I will also reiterate, we were only able to achieve Good Article Status by abiding by guidelines like MOS:CONTROVERSIAL. The majority of quality neutral sources do not use the term controversy to describe GSL these days. I suggest we ask NPOVN and see if it's even feasible. DN (talk) 16:04, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

@Fenharrow Wikipedia uses news reports, but it is not a newspaper. DN (talk) 16:14, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

It might be a good idea, but I have to disagree with you on the statement that it is a bipartisan issue now (please provide sources). One of my sources points out that the term "gun show loophole" is often used by "gun control advocates," and others cast doubt on that term by using prefixes such as "so-called." Just calling it a "political term" or a "term" suggests that it is neutral when it is not, and is simply misleading. Fenharrow (talk) 17:33, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

One must also consider that calling it "controversial" or "so-called" may be considered a form of POV terminology largely preferred by pro-gun advocates such as the NRA.

The question over the existence of a "loophole" is covered in the body, but that doesn't encompass the entirety of it's definition. However, to reduce it down to a strictly "questionable or controversial existence" in the lead sentence requires one to innately presume as much from the very start.

Let's also clarify that "so-called", "controversial" and "polemic" have specific meanings and the question of their interchangeability deserves more scrutiny.

As far as I can tell, these terms still fall into the category of uninformative and unnecessary PUFFERY, which reads...

• "Words such as these are often used without attribution to promote the subject of an article, while neither imparting nor plainly summarizing verifiable information. They are known as "peacock terms" by Wikipedia contributors. Instead of making subjective proclamations about a subject's importance, use facts and attribution to demonstrate it."

To clarify, of course the topic of gun control may still be considered divisive, but here are some sources that state background checks for private sales have become an increasingly bipartisan issue. Also see the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act.

• "Public opinion strongly favors background checks, with overwhelming support from both gun owners and non-gun owners alike. National polls consistently reflect widespread endorsement for measures aimed at closing loopholes in firearm sales regulations. Moreover, numerous states have taken proactive steps to address the private sale loophole, either by implementing universal background check laws or enacting legislation to tighten regulations on firearm transactions. The Center’s 2023 national survey found that 85% of Americans support universal background checks." Johns Hopkins University 2024
• "90% of Americans, regardless of political party, want universal background checks" - Mostly True. Politifact 2022
• "Eighty-three percent of respondents said background checks should be required if someone wants to buy a gun at a gun show or through a private sale." PBS 2019
• "Two measures, specifically, remain overwhelmingly popular: Eighty-nine percent in a new ABC News/Washington Post poll support background checks for all gun purchases, including private and gun show sales; and 86 percent back “red flag” laws allowing the police to take guns from individuals found by a judge to be a danger." ABC 2019
• "Currently, 85% of Americans – including large majorities of Democrats (88%) and Republicans (79%) – favor expanded background checks, little changed from May 2013 (81%). Pew Research 2015

There is only 1 RS I have found from NBC, out of the majority (including much higher quality sources already in the article) that do not use that term.

I'm perfectly willing to take this to WP:NPOVN and see if they think it won't affect our GA status, or if it's worth ignoring Wikipedia guidelines over.

We can use their findings to obtain current consensus on this issue.

Cheers. DN (talk) 02:33, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

The term "gun show loophole" is also used by pro-gun advocates in a pejorative manner, and it's also why we had to decide to just stick to MOS:COMMONNAME. DN (talk) 02:42, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

@Darknipples I have been looking through the archives of this page and I have noticed that some other editors have had similar concerns to mine (Two examples: Talk:Gun show loophole/Archive 2#Got controversy? and Talk:Gun show loophole/Archive 3#Category:Dysphemisms). Some of them did not think that the term was neutral enough, especially considering the significance "loophole" conveys.

I have observed that you have been very active on the article for some time into the past, and valid criticisms have been raised regarding the "loophole" terminology of the article. However, it seems your approach has been one of long-term persistence, but that clear consensus around this term being neutral has long been lacking. The fact that the neutrality of this article has been questioned so many times is evidence that the GA status it achieved may have not ever really been valid, and perhaps needs to be revisited soon.

I think it would be helpful to include other language. Alternatives to "controversial" might include: "disputed", "contested", or "used by proponents of gun control" (as proposed in another comment). Iljhgtn (talk) 22:45, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

You might want to take into account that I'm also the one that put the NPOV tag up to encourage discussion, instead of claiming other editors that tried to change it without consensus now form some sort of "phantom consensus".

Furthermore, you can see how I wasn't the only editor working very hard to bring this article to GA status.

You need reliable sources that use the term "controversial" in the correct context to place it the LEAD sentence, so far I'm the only one that has provided one.

It sounds like you are using this space as a forum for commenting on me, rather than the topic at hand. If you plan to take me to ANI over any of my behavior, it is not helping your case to talk about it here. Just do it or let it go. We have better things to do.

Cheers. DN (talk) 22:53, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

"The fact that the neutrality of this article has been questioned so many times is evidence that the GA status it achieved may have not ever really been valid"

If you want to call into question the integrity of the GA reviewer and the validity of their work, I suggest you do that on their talk page or appropriate noticeboard. DN (talk) 23:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

It has occurred to me these concerns are all already addressed in the last paragraph, which reads...

• Since the mid-1990s, gun control advocates have campaigned for universal background checks and an end to the gun show loophole. Advocates for gun rights have stated that there is no loophole because current laws provide a single, uniform set of rules for commercial gun sellers regardless of the place of sale, and the United States Constitution does not empower the federal government to regulate non-commercial, intrastate transfers of legal firearms between private citizens.

I am less opposed to making changes here to reflect the concerns of "not enough POV by gun-rights advocates", as opposed to inserting MOS:CONTROVERSIAL into the lead sentence. This will still require justification by the body and RS, and my view is still that the article is already BALANCED, as evidenced by it's GA status. However updating to newer sources and context is always a good thing. DN (talk) 00:02, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Let's take a step back and clarify what this discussion is about. I think it's about whether or not the term "gun show loophole" is controversial, and if it is, how that should be explained in the article. I think it's *not* about whether instituting universal background checks is controversial. That would be a separate discussion. Does everyone agree?— Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:16, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I can agree this is article is not about UBC, but it is about background checks for private sales, as evidence by sources. The term "controversial" is subjective. That is according to Wikipedia guidelines.

Would you agree that unless an overwhelming majority of sources use that term, it doesn't belong in the lead sentence, and may be better served in the paragraph I suggested? DN (talk) 00:28, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

The article is about how federal law requires background checks for sales by firearm dealers, but not for private sales (although some states do require background checks for private sales). This is sometimes referred to as the gun show loophole. But I didn't ask what the article is about, I asked what the current discussion is about. I think that it's about whether or not the term "gun show loophole" itself is controversial, and if so, how that should be discussed in the article. If that's right, then the article text that you quoted above -- "Since the mid-1990s, gun control advocates have campaigned for universal background checks," etc. -- does not really address the topic of discussion. My point is not to complain about your post, but rather to clarify what we're currently discussing. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:41, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not it is controversial is subjective. Or do you disagree with that, and by relation, my proposal of putting it into the last paragraph (upon justification by sources)? DN (talk) 00:52, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Imagine if editors argued to make the lead sentence say "The Gun show loophole is an uncontroversial term" or "The Gun show loophole is a logical term"....It's not supposed to work that way for a reason. DN (talk) 01:36, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

The term "gun show loophole" is definitely controversial, and the article should talk about that. But that does not necessarily mean that the word "controversial" should be included in the lead sentence. My current thinking -- subject to change as the discussion progresses -- is that the lead sentence is probably better without describing the term as controversial, and also without describing the term as political. Probably the last paragraph of the lead section should briefly summarize the controversy. And even there, we might or might not want to say that the term is controversial. For example, we might say something like, "Some people object to the use of the term "gun show loophole" because..." Anyway, we should consider this further, and, yes, agree on appropriate references. (My other activities on and off Wikipedia may keep me from spending a lot of time on the current discussion, but I'll see what I can do to contribute further). — Mudwater ^(Talk) 19:43, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Explain why it's controversial using sources. DN (talk) 21:15, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Here are just a few:

1. From Forbes, "The Justice Department announced new rules that would force unlicensed gun sellers who primarily sell firearms at gun shows and online marketplaces to register with the federal government—a significant change that could close the notorious “gun show loophole” [1]https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacharyfolk/2024/04/11/biden-closes-gun-show-loophole-heres-what-to-know-and-when-rule-comes-into-effect/

2. From CNN, "In a preliminary injunction issued Tuesday, US District Judge Matthew Kacsmaryk said the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives cannot enforce the rule intended to close the so-called gun show loophole in Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Utah." [2]https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/12/politics/gun-show-loophole-injunction-texas-kacsmaryk/index.html#:~:text=The%20new%20ATF%20rule,%20which%20took%20effect%20May%2020,%20seeks

3. From NBC, "The Biden administration announced Thursday that it is proposing a rule to eliminate the so-called gun show loophole — one of the biggest attempts to regulate the sale of firearms in years." [3]https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-administration-proposes-eliminating-gun-show-loophole-regulation-rcna102800

4. From National Interest (only potentially non-RS, but I do not see it on the RSP list, so it is not unreliable either), "In reality, there is no “gun show loophole.” If an individual wants to purchase a firearm from a licensed firearms retailer, which typically makes up the majority of vendors at gun shows, the individual must fill out the requisite federal firearms paperwork and undergo a National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) background check."[4]https://nationalinterest.org/feature/10-myths-about-guns-america-14850

If anything, calling the term "controversial" is putting it mildly, and perhaps language such as "so-called" is more in keeping with the direct sources if we were to quote from the most common descriptors directly taking from the reliable sources. Though there is no rule that we need to directly quote from them, in fact that would be plagiarism and there would be no need for editors if we never were to paraphrase. We cannot commit either WP:SYNTH nor WP:OR, but that is not at all what we are doing here. Rather as editors we are supposed to do our best to take the information from reliable sources and put it in commonly used and understood English language per MOS standard guidelines. Iljhgtn (talk) 22:14, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

@Iljhgtn Unless these sources explain why it's controversial I don't see how you can claim it isn't OR and or SYNTH to try and put controversial in wiki voice as you have repeatedly attempted. Maybe adjust your proposal. DN (talk) 01:47, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@Iljhgtn May I now assume you agree that my previous reverts were justified per WP:VOICE and MOS:CONTROVERSIAL? DN (talk) 01:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

You were free to revert per WP:BRD, but I still think that after thinking on the matter for a period of days, it still does not support the actual way this term is disagreed upon by reliable sources, and therefore we need to better describe that disagreement (read "controversy"), in the lead, and even in the opening lines of this article. The mere insertion of the word "controversial" I still believe best summarizes the overall tone of all of the reliable sources that resound together in a cacophony of disputed validity, but I am perfectly open to other wording if someone else has a better proposed descriptor or language to insert. Iljhgtn (talk) 16:46, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

What informative value does calling it "so-called" offer per these sources, that isn't already explained as "this group doesn't believe GSL exists"?

Perhaps there's some relation to other types of denialism, but since I don't have any RS for that I'm just going to let that go for now. DN (talk) 03:36, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

"If anything, calling the term "controversial" is putting it mildly"

How exactly did you glean that?

• Forbes - "notorious". What encyclopedic value does this add? Where does the article go into that? "Gun rights advocates have long opposed the expansion of background checks....The National Rifle Association even claims that “there is no such thing as the gun show loophole.” I think that's basically already in the last paragraph.
• CNN - "so-called" - "what gun control advocates have long called". Do gun rights advocates call it something else? Is there a different name for it that isn't mentioned in the lead?
• NBC - "so-called". Again, is there even an explanation as to why it is "so-called", at least one that's any different from the one that gun rights groups that say ie "it doesn't exist"?
• The National Interest is an "opinion site" that makes strikingly similar arguments to organizations such as the GOA and NRA. The author's name is Chuck Grassley and I'm curious if that is Republican senator Chuck Grassley that received an A+ rating from the NRA.

"My legislation, Senate Amendment 725, was specifically designed to combat the straw purchasing of firearms as well as firearms traffickers who transfer firearms to prohibited individuals and out-of-state residents."

...yup.

I'm willing to take any of these articles to NPOVN, if that's all you believe we need to avoid violating WP:PG. I think they will get a kick out of the National Interest.

Cheers. DN (talk) 06:56, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

The "encyclopedic value" that is added by any language is that we are adequately and to the best of our ability summarizing (in an encyclopedic manner) the various reliable sources in such a manner as to not insert our own voices or bias, but to adequately capture the bias and language used by said RS. Human beings are biased, we all are, and Wikipedia is not free from bias, but it is not the job of us editors to fix all of that, but merely to represent it with NPOV and reliability in mind. Again, I feel you make a fair point to say that calling this in the lead "notorious" would perhaps express WP:UNDUE weight in the direction of a single source or viewpoint. "Controversial" on the other hand does not overly portray any one side (gun rights or gun control or however we want to frame the related gun violence or gun politics meta-sphere), but rather just accurately reflects that there is an open dispute about the use of the term. It is by nature a charged political term, yes, but it is also controversial in its application depending on the varying bodies using it and under what context. As cited, the reliable sources reflect this each in their own ways. The majority appear to use "so called" language, but there are others still that use language like "notorious" as you have rightfully highlighted. Do you have a proposed alternative descriptor for the "Gun show loophole" term that adequately summarizes these reliable sources reporting of and use of the term? Iljhgtn (talk) 16:53, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

"Controversial" on the other hand does not overly portray any one side (gun rights or gun control or however we want to frame the related gun violence or gun politics meta-sphere), but rather just accurately reflects that there is an open dispute about the use of the term."

Using Loaded language & MOS:LABEL are a way to give unconfirmable assertions the appearance of fact. This isn't personal, I just don't get the sense you are acknowledging these issues. DN (talk) 05:01, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that this isn't personal, but not using the language that is repeatedly employed by reliable sources is itself an editorializing omission that itself constitutes an insertion of opinion into the way the term would be read about and understood. I think if I were to offer an opinion, and I do not mean to cast aspersions or anything of that kind, but I think since you created this article and did a LOT of good work on it over many years, you are understandably a bit defensive of any impactful changes that might be made to it. However, we still need to follow the sources and write about the subject matter as accurately as possible just as those same sources describe any notable encyclopedic entry. Iljhgtn (talk) 17:30, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Review at NPOVN

Are there any objections to sending this RS (NBC) to NPOVN as the case for inserting the term "controversial" into the lead, or do we have any better suggestions? This discussion has been going for about a week now and it needs to move forward if there is still no consensus. Cheers. DN (talk) 20:18, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Iljhgtn Your previous suggestions of "contested", "disputed" etc... should all go to NPOVN for review, but you need to find citations for them, otherwise it's just original research. Cheers. DN (talk) 23:36, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Let's not submit this to the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard. Not now, anyway. Let's continue the discussion here. That might take a while, but that's okay. I feel like we are making some progress. And also, we might get more editors joining the discussion here. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 19:31, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

@Mudwater Before we discuss it further we need sources, otherwise this is just OR. As it stands, it is POV to try and put it in VOICE and OR because the one source I found doesn't explain why it uses that term. The idea that it doesn't exist may be why, but thats only a guess that comes specifically from gun rights organizations, and groups. DN (talk) 20:46, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

At this point, since we still don't have any RS explaining why GSL requires a "label" or qualifier, the question to NPOVN looks almost exactly like it did last time. Calling a CTOP article controversial looks utterly redundant. DN (talk) 03:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

As far as use of the term "SO-CALLED". See MOS:DOUBT (Words to watch: supposed, apparent, purported, alleged, accused, so-called) ... So-called can mean commonly named, falsely named, or contentiously named, and it can be difficult to tell these apart. Simply called is preferable for the first meaning; detailed and attributed explanations are preferable for the others." The title of Gun show loophole was disputed years ago in different RfCs and we have stuck with the WP:COMMONNAME since. DN (talk) 22:25, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@Darknipples In one instance you said we need sources calling it "controversial", in other instances you say what the sources call the term is no good. You cannot have it both ways. Iljhgtn (talk) 16:20, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Mudwater, Fenharrow, Iljhgtn, I've made an attempt to resolve this dispute here. Is there any consensus for it? DN (talk) 22:35, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

That paragraph is mixing together two related but different topics. One is the idea of requiring, at a federal level, background checks for private sales. The other is the term "gun show loophole" itself. Both should be dealt with in the article, but separately. Indeed, a person could be in favor of universal background checks while still objecting to the term "gun show loophole". — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Is there a citation for that? DN (talk) 00:33, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Is it possible you may be misinterpreting this as a Black or White fallacy? The article isn't saying people can't hold both those opinions, we just don't have any citations to make that kind of clarification. It will go more smoothly if we tackle one thing at a time. So may we focus on whether or not this edit helps resolve the dispute at hand without tacking on a new somewhat unrelated issue? DN (talk) 00:47, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

This edit does not help resolve the dispute at hand, because that paragraph -- before and after the edit -- mixes together two things: (1) the phrase "gun show loophole", and whether or not it is controversial, which is the dispute at hand, and (2) the idea, and opposition to the idea, of universal background checks. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:08, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

In that case, since you prefer your WP:STICK to actually working towards consensus, this is going to NPOVN today. BTW, your use of the word "Some" here looks like it ignores MOS guidelines...again. DN (talk) 01:16, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@Darknipples So it is ok to cite essays in support of our arguments now? When I earlier cited WP:NORUSH (which you seem to be very interested in ignoring) you said, "You are referring to WP:TIND, which is an essay, not a POLICY." @Mudwater you raise a perfectly valid and fair point. I believe we are not discussing much other than if the term is properly called controversial, disputed, contested or some preferred variant based on the fact that all reliable sources speak of the term in "so called" or other charged language. I have cited numerous of those sources above. Iljhgtn (talk) 16:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

This is all old ground that has already been covered. I won't ignore that. DN (talk) 22:40, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

At this dramatic juncture, I would like to suggest the following: (1) In the lead sentence, we do not say that the term "gun show loophole" is controversial, or political, or any other adjective. (2) We add this paragraph, or something along these lines, to the end of the lead section:

Some people, especially gun rights advocates, object to the term "gun show loophole", and say that it is misleading or confusing. These people point out that the lack of a federal requirement for background checks for private sales of firearms is not specific to gun shows. They say that most sellers at gun shows are licensed dealers who are required to run background checks. They also say that there is not a loophole, in the sense of an exploitable ambiguity or exception in a law, as the federal rule was intended to regulate sales by licensed gun dealers and not by private individuals.

References

— Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:30, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Do these sources seem neutral to you? DN (talk) 01:32, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@Mudwater I support wording of this nature being added in the lead, but in addition to, not instead of, describing the term as the many reliable sources do. The many sources do not use clear definitional and uncontested language, but rather write and speak of "gun show loophope" (especially the "loophole" part) in the language of a term which has many differing interpretations as to its very validity. (Cited above just some). Iljhgtn (talk) 16:32, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Do you believe these are NEUTRAL sources on the topic of GSL? DN (talk) 00:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

"To some, “gun show” is a controversial word." To some, this kind of source is just as credible as an academic source.

References

DN (talk) 04:24, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I do not see anyone here claiming the NRA, especially an NRAblog no less, is credible as a source in any way for the purposes of this discussion or on Wikipedia more generally. And in fact, I would heavily side with you DN if we were discussing whether or not just the term "gun show" was or was not controversial, it most certainly is not. However, "Gun show loophole" on the other hand most certainly is a controversial term. Iljhgtn (talk) 17:34, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:PROVEIT DN (talk) 19:01, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Already have. I am aware of where the "burden of proof" lies, but multiple sources have already been provided. I am curious if there is any subject matter at all that you believe could be called "controversial" on Wikipedia? Or are you simply saying it never is appropriate in your view? Iljhgtn (talk) 19:06, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

We don't use WP:SYNTH DN (talk) 22:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes it is, when sources are very clear, or it's attributable as it is in this case. I believe Wikipedia is held to higher standards and is WP:NOT a newspaper. DN (talk) 23:19, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Mudwater, Fenharrow, Iljhgtn - See link to NPOVN Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Gun show loophole endless discussion over_NPOV DN (talk) 04:44, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I added an fv tag (didn't know which to use) for fn #1. It has the policy should not be limited to transfers at gun shows (an approach known as closing the “gun show loophole”) which would imply the term does not apply to private sales other than at gun shows. But while writing this i recalled {{better source needed}} so will replace with that. fiveby(zero) 18:18, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the specific issue is, but would any of these better clarify that in your opinion? There are two links to the Law journal, one includes a PDF style editorial that is more detailed than the splash page.

Feel free to bring it up at NPOVN (link above) where discussion is underway.

References

Cheers. DN (talk) 18:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Your first: "Closing the “Gun Show Loophole”" is from an advocacy org with no author. If you were to cite the journal article, there would be the same problem, the text of the source would conflict with the article content. ...,including those done at gun shows. would need to change to ...at gun shows. It's not a NPOV problem, i just added the comment here instead of starting a new section. The problem is the citation given conflicts with the article text. fiveby(zero) 19:09, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we are "quoting" the source verbatim here, nor are we required to, AFAIK. It is written in the typical lead summary style. That particular source might only refer to gun shows, but the body and other sources make clear that the private sale exemption ie GSL is not limited to gun shows. AFAIK, sources aren't even required to be in the lead, but we can provide more sources if that would help you.

• Forty percent of all firearms purchased in the United States are sold without background checks because the guns aren’t purchased from a federally licensed firearms dealer, Nichols said. Rather, those weapons are bought at gun shows, on street corners, over the Internet or from friends or neighbors, Nichols said. These are the so-called loopholes in the current federal background check system. The NRA disputes that characterization about the “gun show loophole” because federally licensed firearms dealers participate at gatherings and, of course, conduct background checks.

• In a move that officials touted as the most significant increase in American gun regulation in decades, the Justice Department has finalized rules to close a loophole that allowed people to sell firearms online, at gun shows and at other informal venues without conducting background checks on those who purchase them....The rules clarify who is required to conduct background checks and aims to close what is known as the “gun show loophole” — which refers to the reality that gun-show sellers and online vendors are subject to much looser federal regulations than vendors who sell at bricks-and-mortar stores.

• But federal gun laws contain a major loophole: Transactions between private sellers and buyers do not require a background check. That used to typically just mean sales at gun shows, or through listings found in classified ads. But that was before the internet made it as easy as a few mouse clicks to find a gun for sale from a private seller on an online marketplace or through social media...The loophole has remained in place despite polls showing high levels of public support for making all firearms sales subject to background checks. Gun-control activists see closing the loophole as the foundation for a comprehensive gun violence reduction plan, while the gun lobby, and many Republicans, have been vehemently opposed.

• Private firearm transfers that do not require background checks are colloquially called private sale exemptions or gun show loophole transfers.

References

Cheers. DN (talk) 21:09, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, i'll try and explain

1. "Gun show loophole" applies only to gun shows
2. "Gun show loophole" applies primarily to gun shows, but also such as mail-order and internet sales

These are two incompatible statements. The current article content takes position #2, but the citation provided takes position #1. In fact a major part of the source is complaining that it only applies to gun shows:

As discussed in the section on criminal acquisition of firearms at gun shows, the fundamental flaw in gun show loophole proposal is its failure to address the great majority of private-party transfers, which occur at flea markets and swap meets, through classified ads in newspapers and publications for firearm enthusiasts, in homes, on the street, and increasingly over the Internet

Now i don't care which position the article takes, just that the citation provides supports the article content (since i changed the text i had to look at the references for the sentence.) Probably best just to remove the citation as you say they aren't even required to be in the lead and probably best not to have them. I left the source in place because it might be valuable for the article, and don't know which of #1 or #2 should be stated in the article. fiveby(zero) 22:03, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Done, thank you. See [5]. Cheers. DN (talk) 03:48, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I didn't read the whole thread but but do have an interest in terminology issues like this. IMO "gun show loophole" is just a vague epitaph (used to refer to many different things) rather than a distinct topic and so would be best covered as a termwith suitable skepticism. A good example of this and doing so is Homosexual agenda . Also often used in a misleading way or even being designed to mislead, because it is almost always referring to (and an attempt to rename) the general ability to do private transfers, the vast majority of which are unrelated to gun show. Which is another reason to cover it skeptically as a term, with Homosexual agenda being a good example on how to do that. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 03:26, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

We try to use as many neutral higher quality academic sources as we can to avoid WP:NEWSSTYLE and MOS:LABEL. If you have any suggestions or find any that aren't included, we would certainly appreciate them. DN (talk) 04:02, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

The Homosexual agenda article seems to be mentioned in the WP:WORDISSUBJECT category of WP:DICT which explains that as an encyclopedia our primary focus is to explain the subject as opposed to simply defining terms. The sources for the LEAD sentence are a state agency and private membership organization called the Wisconsin Historical Society, and a textbook on the linguistic analysis of hate speech. The lead focus is on defining terms as opposed to summarizing the explanation, which the article does in the body instead of the lead. DN (talk) 20:31, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

As documented there, Wikipedia has many articles on terms. And terms are often used to distort or cast a negative light on things which have more neutrally worded terms and which are more distinct topics. In these cases, it's really more neutral and better to cover it as a term rather than being the place to cover the topic(s) which the term is seeking to vilify. For example, Homosexual agenda is not the place that Wikipedia covers the LBGT initiatives which are the target of the term. And in this case, there are the extra layers that it does not refer to a distinct topic, having wide ranging and varying usages, many unrelated to gun shows. North8000 (talk) 00:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with @North8000. Furthermore, I think it is time we initiate the page move and then can continue work on this page from there. Who wants to initiate that, or should I? Iljhgtn (talk) 02:28, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

@Iljhgtn A page move was contingent on there being evidence that PSE was a better fit. Have you done any work or found any evidence to make that determination? Google books Ngram suggests there is more literature on GSL. The article has also been stable since the change by uninvolved editors at NPOVN, and it now includes "controversial" in the last paragraph of the lead, although RSN hasn't weighed in on that. We will likely need an RfC if you want to move forward with a move since it is a possible POVFORK, and a majority of the uninvolved editors at NPOVN agreed that your sources were not clear if your sources were referencing the term or the subject. Cheers. DN (talk) 03:22, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

North8000, if you feel the Homosexual agenda article sets an example for GSL, when do you plan to nominate it for a GA review?

For that matter, once this dispute is resolved, I think a GA review for GSL is also prudent, to make sure it stays in good standing.

Cheers. DN (talk) 05:37, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

IMO there are two viable possibilities:

1. Cover it as a term as Homosexual agenda does....a term designed to to vilify something.
2. Cover the "target" of the term with a different neutrally worded topic.

Since the term has so many variable uses (including most commonly those which conflict with it's wording) IMO #2 is a less viable option because there is no distinct topic. But it might be more do-able in the current situation. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:04, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

That is fair and makes a lot of sense. Wise words as far as a path to proceed from here. Iljhgtn (talk) 22:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Let's use the FAQ as an example. In the context of the current dipute/proposal, the use of descriptors such as "so-called" and "controversial" are presumed necessary by it's proponents to maintain NPOV. Guidelines such as MOS:DOUBT, MOS:CONTROVERSIAL, MOS:OPEN aside, considering the lack of clarity by the sources defining the "term" as opposed to the "subject", this should probably go to RSN to be sure it's not WP:OR or WP:SYN as opposed to NPOVN.

I am of the opinion that framing terms is more of a NEWS-STYLE approach rather than an encyclopedic one, though I see your reasoning. Nothing against your preferred approach, my concerns are mainly avoiding WP:POVFORK and ensuring focus on facts before attributed opinions in the lead.

Cheers. DN (talk) 22:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

The guidelines you mention by the way are absolutely being weighed and considered, after all, the wording such as "so-called" might generally be avoided, "...unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject..." which in this case that exact wording is very commonly used. Thus, the "so-called Gun show loophole" would indeed be wording sanctioned by MOS:CONTROVERSIAL, in addition to the other guidelines you continue to cite as if they were somehow in disagreement with this. Iljhgtn (talk) 22:35, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I am under the impression that since you agree with NORTH8000, we should essentially ignore WP:REFERS and revert DeCausa's change [6], in order to "define the term" in the lead sentence. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you here.

Cheers. DN (talk) 23:00, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

We have one neutral source calling it controversial by NBC. Did you find others? The use of "so-called" is much more prevalent from what I see, so it might pass the smell test for MOS:DOUBT strictly depending on how and where it is used. Then there is still the question of why is it DUE? What purpose does that serve in explaining the subject? DN (talk) 23:39, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

re POVFORK, Gun Control Act of 1968, Firearm Owners Protection Act, Brady Bill, Gun law in the United States, Gun politics in the United States and a quick look shows little or no "gun show" content in any. FOPA the best merge target if you are thinking merge? Would have thought all of those would have some "gun show" content. fiveby(zero) 22:42, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

See the FAQ. When this article was moved from Gun shows in the United States to a stand-alone, there was much discussion over the neutrality of the title. WP:COMMONNAME made sense, and the topic has continued to remain notable in academic studies, legislation and news reports. I checked Google books Ngram which shows GSL is more common in literature than Private sale exemption AFAICT. I no longer think a title change or redirect to solve this dispute is without risk of violating WP policy. DN (talk) 23:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

BTW Fiveby and @North8000 are welcome to join this discussion over at NPOVN...Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Gun show loophole endless discussion over NPOV... Cheers. DN (talk) 00:25, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

DUE Weight see NPOVN

Iljhgtn Let's discuss this additional issue with your claim here. GSL has many aliases other than PSE and there are articles about this topic going back about thirty years. To say the number of neutral sources that use the terms you are trying to include into the lead sentence are in the majority, and are therefore DUE (in the lead sentence as opposed to in the last paragraph of the lead), requires at least some evidence. How do you intend to prove this? DN (talk) 22:26, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Review at RSN

Please list sources for "so-called" and for "controversial" to be used during the discussion at RSN. Cheers. DN (talk) 22:48, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 24 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus at the discussion has shown that the current title is the WP:COMMONNAME based on usage in reliable sources, citing both Scholar (gun show loophole 692, private sale of firearms 30, private gun sales 309), as well as ngrams. Supporters of the move discussed the neutrality of the title as the primary motivation for the move, but opposers have shown with data that the current title is still the common name and in line with policies as referenced by WP:NPOVNAME. The close of this RM does not preclude any new separate RMs for a new title in line with our policies on article titles in the future if consensus changes as there is no WP:DEADLINE. (closed by non-admin page mover) Raladic (talk) 02:47, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

---

Gun show loophole → Private sale of firearms in the United States – I have been reading the comments between a number of editors over the past few weeks and I have been engaged in the discussion around what to do with this GSL article name. At this point, the discussion clearly looks like a new title is needed and that the best neutral title is "Private sale of firearms in the United States" according to common usage and the aggregate of best reliable sources. Any other changes to the article can be dealt with separately, this discussion should just be over whether or not to re-title the article to "Private sale of firearms in the United States" instead of "Gun show loophole". Iljhgtn (talk) 15:39, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Surely the article should be titled "Private sale of firearms in the United States"? This article entirely focuses on the US, and I'm pretty sure the US is not the only country which allows the private sale of firearms.

Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:56, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting this. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:59, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support Here from the NPOVN discussion. I think the name change makes sense as it allows the article to focus on the topic rather than the rhetoric. Note that I might make the title "Private Firearms Sales (United States)" only to try to reduce the length of the name with a preference for the US in parenthesis.

Springee (talk) 16:19, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Springee, wouldn't this be changing the topic also? It would have to describe private sales of which the "loophole" talk is only a part. If it were moved the content would not be NPOV would it? fiveby(zero) 00:17, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Gun stores, pawn shops, outdoors stores, etc., are privately owned, and their sales to other private parties are private sales, but that doesn't seem to be what the article is about. This seems confusing. A clearer title might be something like Private sale exemption for gun sales in the United States, to make it clear this is about some kind of exemption. Although Gun show loophole is arguably non-neutral, it may also arguably be the WP:COMMONNAME and a somewhat accurate description of the phenomenon of gun sales occurring in substantial quantities by unlicensed people, as gun shows seem to be a forum that facilitates these sales. Habitual sellers at gun shows may be improperly claiming they are not really engaged in a commercial business enterprise when they really are, to an extent they would not be able to operate at such volumes if they were selling them out of their own home. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:52, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support: I'm here from the NPOVN discussion as well and in favour of renaming the page "Private sale of firearms in the United States" as this title is in alignment with numerous independent reliable sources and US go00vt. sources such as the ATF, DOJ etc. GSL is too narrow and not to mention a disputed term (when neutral supported alternatives are present) to cover ALL private sales/transactions. Responding to⁠ BarrelProof (talk) regarding the WP:COMMONNAME: There is no doubt that the term "Gun show loophole" is all over the place and it refers to private sales of SOME type or the other, but this term in every instance of its usage does not unanimously convey any ONE definition, some sources use only within the purview of a gun show, some others use it to mention private sales within gun shows AND online gun sales, this is just two of the wide array of definitions present for GSL. The article's lead attributes this term to ALL private sales, without much support from Rs-es. Fenharrow (talk) 19:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

A "private sale" of a firearm in the United States always refers to guns sold outside of gun stores (which are federally licensed with a FFL, Federal Firearm License). This might include guns sold at a gun show, but might also just be at a parking lot, in someone's home, or in any other "private" manner. There exists federal law presently that requires a background check any time that a gun is sold at a store (FFL), and therefore that sale is not "private" or a "private sale." State law differs on which states require background checks or other information to be provided to the state for purposes of public or law enforcement verification, but regardless, a "private sale" only ever refers to guns sold outside of gun stores, pawn shops, outdoors stores, or any FFL licensed gun seller in the business of selling firearms. This is a large part of why the article title change is so badly needed, so that all of that can be addressed, and not focus exclusively on gun shows and this "so-called" "loophole" other than in a sub-section of the article. Iljhgtn (talk) 19:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. This started as an NPOV dispute over the lead sentence. We discussed doing an RM if there was a suitable replacement since there are MANY names for the this subject, but Google books Ngram seemed to show literature on GSL is still the most prominent, AFAICT. There were no other options given, evidence presented, nor a consensus at NPOVN on this, and only certain editors were pinged to participate. Cheers. DN (talk) 21:51, 24 October 2024 (UTC) I would also add that I have serious concerns that this will cause a WP:POVFORK. DN (talk) 21:52, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  Why would this really in a POV fork? Springee (talk) 22:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

"A point of view (POV) fork is a content fork deliberately created to avoid a neutral point of view (including undue weight), often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. All POV forks are undesirable on Wikipedia, as they avoid consensus building, which violates one of our most important policies."...The reason for the NPOVN dispute and the suggestion of a redirect came from a desire to insert "controversial" and or "so-called" in the lead sentence, despite WP:LABEL and MOS:DOUBT which are NPOV related guidelines. I have since tried to WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV using requested terms in the lead using the last paragraph, but even that appears insufficient and the focus remains on the lead sentence and title. I assume good faith, but I am also concerned with this continued endeavor to change the title and or lead sentence despite the lack of WP:WEIGHT or explicit sources. I feel it is simply a well intentioned mistake that does not improve the article according to MOS. Cheers. DN (talk) 23:39, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I know what a POV fork is. What I don't understand is how changing the name to something that isn't "so-called" or at best an inaccurate political term makes for a better name vs something that I think we all agree is more neutral. If we want to put "political term" back in the lead then I think the current name would be OK. I would note that when looking back at say this 2017 version of the lead [7] (501 edits ago) the article called these political terms. It seems to have settled on "political term" around 2015. I see from the edit history you were well involved with the article back then. Perhaps you can explain why it has been fine, for such a long time, to call this a political term? Personally, I would be happy to keep it described as a political term that refers to. However, if the choice it treating it as a clear and accurate term vs describing what is actually in question, let's use the more accurate term and just have GSL redirect to this article. Springee (talk) 23:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose I oppose the proposed change. The term "loophole" refers to an exception to a rule or law which can be exploited by those who wish to evade the consequences of said rule or law.  The word "sale," on the other hand, refers to a transaction involving an exchange of goods for money.  These two concepts are not interchangeable. I do not think the name should be changed, as "gun show loophole" is the commonly accepted term to refer to the concept of this exception. If the title must be changed, it would make more sense to change it to include a phrase like "private sale exemption" or "private sale exception" or "private sale loophole". Also, this article has been designated as a "good article" with its current title, which is another reason not to change it. T g7 (talk) 23:32, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The term 'loophole' refers to an intended exception? loophole. fiveby(zero) 23:44, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I think loopholes can be intentionally created but it is not germane here so I will delete that part.T g7 (talk) 00:41, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe NRA spokespeople have taken the position that it was intended, and therefore is not a "loophole" or that it therefore does not exist. The GSL article cites a BATFE submitted report to the USDOJ regarding Firearm Owners Protection Act, that states:

• "In 1986, Congress loosened several controls it had established in the GCA. The stated purpose of the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986 (FOPA) was to ensure that the GCA did not "place any undue or unnecessary Federal restrictions or burdens on law abiding citizens,"(5)but it opened many loopholes through which illegal gun traffickers can slip." [8]

The GSL article also cites another report from the ATF to the DOJ on the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, and in the conclusion it says:

• The proposals also ensure that gun show promoters run their shows responsibly, that all firearms purchases at gun shows are subject to NICS checks, and that all firearms sold at the shows can be traced if they are used in crime. Further, these recommendations will guarantee that everyone selling at gun shows understands the legal obligations and the risks of disposing of firearms irresponsibly and that law enforcement has the resources necessary to investigate and prosecute those who violate the law. In short, as requested by President Clinton, the proposals will close the gun show loophole.

Here is the excerpt from the memo by former president Clinton:

• "This loophole makes gun shows prime targets for criminals and gun traffickers, and we have good reason to believe that firearms sold in this way have been used in serious crimes. In addition, the failure to maintain records at gun shows often thwarts needed law enforcement efforts to trace firearms."[9]

There is more from other administrations, academics, etc... but perhaps this answers your question.

Cheers. DN (talk) 00:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, i knew people referred to the situation as a 'loophole'. Was just surprised at "intended" loophole, and was just wondering if any sources had really argued that it met the legal definition. Pretty sure most or all definitions would say unintended. fiveby(zero) 01:42, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The COMMONNAME example is Boston Massacre. Politicians don't give things accurate names all the time. It's a "non-neutral" title and doesn't need to start "The term 'Boston Massacre..." What it does do is clarify things for the reader in the first two sentences: "shot several" and "heavily publicized as a 'massacre'" with the scare quotes. So why not do something like that here? Why can't you just say it's not a legal loophole, there's no ambiguity, no one is getting around any existing laws because of a technicality. There are sources which say that, but are there any which say it is really a legal loophole? fiveby(zero) 02:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Obviously this discussion is supposed to be about the title, but I'll indulge briefly.

Does prominence in sources seem to discriminate much between politicians and patriots such as Paul Revere and Samuel Adams? Adams arguably possesses both titles. The perception of a "Massacre" is attributed mainly to them according to sources.

GSL attributes perceptions much in the same way, but as you might agree, our subject is more complex. Laws are a bit less static and perhaps more prone to political scrutiny.

"Why can't you just say it's not a legal loophole, there's no ambiguity, no one is getting around any existing laws because of a technicality. There are sources which say that

We do explain that in a limited sense. In the second sentence, "Under U.S. federal gun law, any person may sell a firearm to...".

The assertion that there is "no ambiguity" has been explicitly disputed by multiple sources including this one [10] (page 97). Did you forget the link I cited for you in my previous reply, in regard to FOPA [11]?

The same for "no one is getting around any existing laws". See USDOJ 2024 report in the lead. "This report makes clear that black-market guns sold by unlicensed dealers without a background check are increasingly being found at crime scenes,”...

I'm paraphrasing Wintemute, but the fundamental flaw (besides the name) is not precisely that the loophole doesn't exist, it's that the original legislation "closing the gun show loophole" didn't regulate private sales everywhere [12] (page 104). Gun shows were certainly more prominent 30 years ago than they are now, but the name has stuck, and annoyingly so.

The NR article below also describes the ambiguity in how the law defines "engaged in a business" in the context of the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act which is touted specifically to help address that as a means to help "close the gun show loophole". At the end it refers to "a matter of opinion" which is consistent with how we have tried to address and attribute views by gun rights and gun control advocates on the subject in the last paragraph of the lead.

• "The Brady bill did not draw a very clear line between the professional firearms seller and the hobbyist. For example, if a professional firearms seller lost his license and wanted to unload his inventory all at once, he could say he was an amateur and, abracadabra, conduct his everything-must-go sale with no background checks. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or ATF, issued the loophole-closing rule claiming authorization under the 2022 Bipartisan Safer Communities Act sponsored by Senator Marco Rubio, Republican of Florida. It’s a matter of opinion whether this law directed the ATF to close the gun-show loophole" New Republic 2024

Cheers. DN (talk) 10:02, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

No need to indulge if you do not wish to. What Wintemute describes as ambiguity is not how the article define the loophole. And TNR's article and President Joe Biden just closed it. Or did he? points to more ambiguity in the phrase, along with the WH fact sheet which says there are 'loopholes' needing closed and not done until there are Universal background checks. fiveby(zero) 11:18, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

To be clear I am fine with the version of the lead when the article got GA status. I didn't agree with removing "political term" from the opening sentence. Put that long standing part back in and I'm fine with things as is. Springee (talk) 00:46, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Is there any source that actually says it is a legal loophole (don't take too seriously, it's 1910) beyond just using the phrase? fiveby(zero) 00:06, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose WP:NPOVNAME states that we should still use the common name of a topic even if it is controversial or includes non-neutral words that Wikipedia normally avoids because the prevalence of the name, or the fact that a given description has effectively become a proper name (and that proper name has become the common name), generally overrides concern that Wikipedia might appear as endorsing one side of an issue. "Gun show loophole" (GSL) is the common name in the majority of reliable sources (including sources that question the validity of the term). For example, GSL had 692 Google Scholar results while the proposed title had zero. Additionally, the sources cited by @DN in the NPOVN discussion show that GSL is still in common usage. Media outlets refer to the so-called GSL or put GSL in quotations to denote that that is its common, but non-neutral, name. The neutrality of the term GSL should be discussed in the article text with due weight. (Responding to WP:LAW notification.) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:49, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

COMMONNAME/NPOVNAME is a powerful argument, but i'm struggling to figure out how to quickly fix the neutrality issues in the lead without resorting to something like "GSL is a political term with various meanings..." fiveby(zero) 11:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

This is exactly what the article did for almost 10 years. I'm not sure why it was recently changed to treat the term like a factual statement vs a term of art which refers to a range of perceived gaps in the background check system. Springee (talk) 11:42, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The TNR article oversimplifies (IMO) to:

• "The gun-show loophole is called a loophole because when Congress passed the Brady bill it neglected to require background checks for sales by people who aren’t professional firearms sellers."

It leaves out FOPA's changes to the Gun Control Act of 1968 that sort of made gun shows possible, but it's not "incorrect" as it were. Cheers. DN (talk) 23:57, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what this is in response to. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:02, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per DN, T g7, and voorts. Additionally, the topic of this article is the gun show loophole, defined as the absence of mandatory background checks in the United States for private sales of firearms by parties without a federal firearms license (FFL), including those done at gun shows. The article goes on to cover usage and controversies surrounding the term itself, the phenomenon of private sale of firearms in the United States in generally, and the legal status of such sales. The content is all unified under the current article title. Neutral sources using scare quotes, so-called, notorious, and the like only prove that this name everybody knows it by, even if it is loaded.--MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 07:07, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  See: WP:WORDISSUBJECT --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 08:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  I'm fine with the term being the subject. However, in that case we should state that this is either a "term of art" as the article used to say or "a political term" as the article said for nearly a decade. It should be clear this is a term, not a literal thing. Springee (talk) 10:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  I’m torn. I don’t love labeling the term in the opening sentence but I could live with it. If one is warranted, political is a far better label than the others that have been proposed. I’m coming around to the idea that the article might be improved by mentioning the issues with the term earlier in the article. I would hate for the opening few sentences to get bogged down with a laundry list of labels and caveats. Was there ever an explanation provided for why political was removed? I was following the prior discussion at first but it has since exploded. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 17:01, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  Clarifying: I could live with “political term” but would oppose other labels that have been suggested. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 17:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  I'm OK with any descriptor that is neutral in terms of if the term describes a good or bad thing. "term of art" was used in the past. I think it's more neutral but also more esoteric. I think political term is accurate as it's a term used in context of taking actions to effect policy changes. Searching Wikipedia for "political term" does turn up a lot of hits (not sure how to get my search result link to work nicely). Springee (talk) 18:12, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  “Political term” is better. “Term of art” suggests something more specialized or jargony. This is the opposite. “Gun show usageloophole” is in widespread common usage. Some critics highlight its lack of precision or accuracy and appeal to technicalities and bland official or academic sources to contest its usage. (See: endless questions about what constitutes a “loophole” and whether or not “gun shows” are a defining feature of legal private sales.) --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 18:41, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment "Gun show loophole" may be a common term that ANYBODY in the States may know. But Wikipedia is a global project. The current lead of the article reads

  "Gun show loophole, also called the private sale exemption is..."

  As indicated by numerous sources, "Gun show loophole" is a colloquialism that some sources describe as the sale of firearms amongst individuals SPECIFICALLY in a gun show and others say "...has allowed individuals to bypass background checks when purchasing firearms from private sellers they meet at gun shows or through online marketplaces." These words do not mean "comprehensive exemptions for private sales of firearms" AKA "private sale exemption". Not to mention that agencies such as the DOJ and ATF in their guides pertaining to private sales, refer to the notion as "private sales".

As a non-American who formerly had no knowledge of a notion called "gun show loophole" and how politically divisive this term is, the current lead is akin to saying to those unaware of any partisan context,

"Mangoes, also called as Oranges is..."

as though they are one and the same when they are not.

Wikipedia:Article titles says that precision and unambiguity are important ingredients for an article title. "Gun Show Loophole" is neither precise nor unambiguous, whereas "private sale of firearms in the US" or some variation thereof can be. The term "Gun Show Loophole" obviously would warrant a substantial part of the article. But it is a travesty to just let the status quo title continue. Fenharrow (talk) 12:46, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

"Gun show loophole" may be a common term that ANYBODY in the States may know. COMMONNAME prefers we evaluate how topics are discussed in RSes precisely so that we can avoid arguments from experience. It also states that the title should be recognizable to a reader that is familiar to the topic, not readers who know nothing about it. If you can present evidence of a more global common name that is also recognizable, I'm open to changing my !vote. The current suggested title, however, appears to be invented by the editor who opened this RM.

WP:PRECISE is about making ATs too specific vs. not specific enough. This article is about the GSL, so its title is precise. An impresice title would be "gun loophole" while a too precise title would be "GSL in the United States" since no other country has a GAL. Similarly, WP:TITLEDAB talks about how to disambiguate terms within titles. GSL is not an ambiguous term that could be confused with anything else.

Finally, as noted above, what is said in the lead is a separate issue from the AT. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:44, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Thank you very much for being so open minded @Voorts. WP:COMMONNAME here is in fact "private firearms sales", I later added "in the United States" on the suggestion of @Hemiauchenia since the scope of this specific content is in fact limited to the United States. From WP:COMMONNAME, "When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others."

Alternatively, we could go with "Private firearms sales (United States)" or even "Private gun sales (United States)", or even "Private gun sales in the United States". Any of those meet the common name requirement as well as are the most neutral term, and then the GSL title could be a subsection within the overall body of this content as well as a redirect of course so that any reader who happens to type that would still get the "Private firearms sales" article. See this New York Times source referring to, "A federal gun law passed last year gave the Biden administration a powerful new tool to increase background checks on “private” firearms sales." [13]https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/01/us/gun-laws-private-sales-background-checks-armslist.html Iljhgtn (talk) 18:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

"Private firearms sales" has not been demonstrated to be the common name for the topic of this article. I get different results depending on what I search for. Private gun sales leads on Google trends. The top hits are descriptions of the laws in my state, gun enthusiast forums on Reddit and Quora and advice on buying and selling guns, sites like the NRA and the US Concealed Carry Association (USCCA), and some sites on federal laws lower down the page. Private firearms sales returns nearly identical search results. Gun show loophole returns mostly discussions of federal law and discussions of the term as used in this article. It has far more hits than private firearms sales. The third hit is to USCCA, so it's not as though pro-gun sources are suppressed. The current article title reflects its content consistent with widespread usage. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 19:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that COMMONNAME states that if there are "multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common", then we should choose one without problems. "Private gun sales" is the only proposed title you provided that is fairly common, with 308 results on Scholar (compared to the 692 for GSL that I noted in my !vote above). However, "private gun sales" and the "gun show loophole" are different things. This article is about the legal/sociocultural concept of a "gun show loophole", not about the sales of guns in the United States in general. The more appropriate article to discuss "private gun sales" in the United States writ large seems to be Gun politics in the United States. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:40, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. The article right after introducing the term, which I find to be misleading,  primarily addresses "firearms sales between private individuals." Aside from the section on "provenance", I believe that much of the content may not align with the central theme of "gun show loophole" for the reasons mentioned above and in the NPOVN discussion. Fenharrow (talk) 07:06, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Several of the sources in the History section refer to the “gun show loophole” or just “loopholes” and the term is used repeatedly in the article sections Government studies and positions and Contributing events. A text search for “loophole” shows it is used 90 times on the page (including many references). “Loophole” appears in every section of the article except State requirements, which is the shortest section of the article. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 17:37, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@Fiveby raises an excellent point somewhere above, I don't believe there are many sources, if not any sources that refer to ALL private sales taking place THROUGH the gun show "loophole". The article having the word "loophole" however many times is irrelevant. GSL is not PSE. Nobody calls into question the private sales of firearms, the existence of a "loophole" per se is disputed. "GSL" may appear in search results and sources, but it is important to understand its specific usage. For example "Violence Policy Center" says the following "Legislation meeting the above criteria will once and for all close the gun show loophole and help prevent future tragedies resulting from felons, minors, and other prohibited individuals having unfettered access to firearms at gun shows."[14]https://vpc.org/publications/closing-the-gun-show-loophole/ This manner of using the term is not unique to this one source. In what authority are we calling in this article "the absence of mandatory background checks in the United States for private sales of firearms" a "Gun show loophole" when the term "GSL" is clearly not a catch- all umbrella term for private sales? Fenharrow (talk) 08:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

GSL is a catch-all term for the private sale exemption, which is what this article is about. This article is not about the culture or politics of gun ownership in the U.S., but rather about the legal concept of an exemption/loophole. You might personally disagree that sources are using the term GSL correctly, but for purposes of an article title, our role is to determine how the term is commonly used. As I've noted above, GSL is commonly used by a wide range of sources, including sources on both sides of the political/cultural divide over gun ownership in the United States. The issues of incorrect use of the term or whether it's even a thing that actually exists can and should be discussed in the article, but nobody has presented any evidence that GSL isn't the common, catch-all name for the state of the law surrounding the sale of guns by private individuals at gun shows or in other circumstances.

Frankly, this RM discussion should not have been opened. It's fine that some editors have taken issues with the neutrality of this article. Those issues should continue to be discussed and resolved on talk here and/or at NPOVN. An RM discussion should not be used as a proxy to discuss article neutrality. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:54, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. GSL is the central organizing principle and primary topic of this article. The title is appropriate. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 15:41, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. Many good points are raised here and in the lengthy NPOV discussion above. Editors should focus on the content of the entire article and of the lead section as a whole. Arguments about the article title and wording of the opening sentence are too narrow. As I've said elsewhere, I oppose the move and support the current title. I also support reworking the first few paragraphs to better reflect the scope of the topic, including mentioning but not belaboring disputes about the term itself. Probably best to work collaboratively on proposed changes to the lead in Talk space and perhaps work backwards to the opening sentence. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 19:59, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Myceteae: This is a requested move discussion, not a discussion about cleaning up article content. There's a discussion above this one about how "gun show loophole" should be framed in the article. These discussions can run at the same time, but the discussions should be kept separate. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:42, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  I appreciate the gentle admonition. I have registered my opposition to the proposed move. My intent was to suggest an alternative to what is under consideration here and in the NPOV discussion, to be discussed separately. I can see now where this is unclear and risks exploding the move discussion beyond its scope. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 21:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support. The proposed title is a much better description of an encyclopedic topic. Srnec (talk) 20:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per voorts. I think some thinking about scope and discussion about lead wording is appropriate. Title and lead both contribute to defining the scope. Here tho i think the consensus is trending towards or already at do not change the title. Any change to that would probably come from outside input and continuing discuss about the lead likely makes that more difficult. fiveby(zero) 16:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support - Per WP:NPOV. While the strongest argument in favor of the status quo would be that it's the common name by which this subject is typically referred to, it must be said that such usage is nearly always polemical in nature. A more neutral name, such as has been proposed, with a redirect is the best solution. Garnet Moss (talk) 18:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Have you read WP:NPOVNAME? It provides an important exception to NPOV. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:54, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, I’m familiar, but I don’t think it applies. I confess it's an awkward middle case between examples provided. The proposed name may be far more encyclopedic but it’s not the unambiguously obvious encyclopedic choice; but nor is it similar to most unambiguous uses for NPOVNAME, as it retains its polemical character despite its commonality. In other words, the frequency of this term does not outweigh its unencyclopedic character. Garnet Moss (talk) 19:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Actually, I think it does apply, but it strongly favors the arguments in favor or supporting the title being changed if we read WP:NPOVNAME closely and even use the example cited. I just ran a Google NGRAM of Nadya Suleman and Octomom for example (the example mentioned in NPOVNAME "Article titles and redirects should anticipate what readers will type as a first guess and balance that with what readers expect to be taken to. Thus, typing "Octomom" properly redirects to Nadya Suleman...", and it demonstrates that Octomom receives more hits than Nadya Suleman, but that Nadya Suleman is the title in keeping balance with NPOV and encyclopedic concerns, while Octomom is the redirect. Thus, in our current example and proposed article name change, 'Private gun sales in the United States' (the number one or two hit depending on the data) should be the title, while 'Gun show loophole' should be the redirect.

  [15]https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Nadya+Suleman&year_start=2002&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=false

  [16]https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Octomom&year_start=2002&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=false Iljhgtn (talk) 19:24, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  There's a huge distinction between a living person and our naming conventions for when we use pseudonyms as opposed to a politico-cultural concept with legal aspects. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:45, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  The rule applies in this case as well, and the example given there from WP:NPOVNAME is, "Typing "Antennagate" redirects the reader to a particular section of iPhone 4". Similar NGRAM data also applies there and here. Iljhgtn (talk) 20:27, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Nobody has shared any Ngram results regarding the current and proposed title. There's also a distinction between the colloquial name of a fleeting cultural event (Antennagate) and a longstanding political and legal dispute that has had a stable common name (GSL) for decades. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Just a quick note, I mentioned the GSL results from Ngram in my initial objection to the RM, but I wasn't sure if I was reading it correctly. [17] [18]

  Cheers. DN (talk) 23:55, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Google search results, Trends, and NGrams have all been raised and confirm GSL is common. Another issue is that GSL and private gun sales are not entirely interchangeable. This article describes and is organized around the longstanding political and legal dispute that has had a stable common name. NGram alone won’t resolve this; it requires an assessment of the article content, which is GSL. As I discussed here[19] search results are different depending on which term is used. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 00:06, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  Private gun sales is THE WP:COMMONNAME that refers to ALL gun sales in the United States which are not subject generally to background checks.

  The GSL PRIMARILY refers to those at a gun shows, which are therefore not being conducted for business by an FFL and therefore are federally exempted from a background check, or at the very MOST to also include some online sales of guns (See NY Times and other WP:BESTSOURCES which all substantiate this as already shared). This is probably why GSL has been declining in general use according to all the public data (with "Private gun sales" getting around 400% the number of hits), and as we are advised by policy to follow, but not lead with the usage of such terms, the time has come to update the title of this article accordingly to some variant of "Private sale of firearms in the United States" if not that verbatim. Just "Private gun sales (United States)" may be the most accurate and best alternative if it comes to it, but the status quo is encyclopedically intolerable.

  [20]https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=private+gun+sales&year_start=2002&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3

  [21]https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Gun+show+loophole&year_start=2002&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3 Iljhgtn (talk) 03:12, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. GSL started as a redirect to Gun shows in the United States in 2006 and remained in place for over 8+ years as only a redirect. The current article was born as a WP:POVFORK of a page away from Gun shows in the United States in the latter half of 2014 created by an editor named Lightbreather, with its GA status only earned in 2015 and not reviewed since. The article is supposed to encyclopedically cover the private sale of guns in the United States, which are exempted from background checks; therefore, the best, neutral, encyclopedic COMMONNAME term for such activity is something along the lines of what was proposed, though "Private gun sales in the United States" might actually be the best COMMONNAME that is also the most NPOV. "Gun show loophole" is an incorrect title if the aim is to describe the phenomenon (private gun sales in the United States, exempted from background checks) and then subsequently writing about "GSL" with the WP:FALSEBALANCE of something along the lines of "gun rights advocates" or "the NRA" don't think GSL is a real term, and everyone else just uses the term, is simply not true and isn't supported by the WP:BESTSOURCES.Iljhgtn (talk) 18:42, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  What evidence is there that Private gun sales in the United States and GSL refer to the same thing? DN (talk) 22:35, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  See the lead...

  • Twenty-two U.S. states and the District of Columbia have laws that require background checks for some or all private sales, including sales at gun shows. In some of these states, such non-commercial sales also must be facilitated through a federally licensed dealer, who performs the background check and records the sale. In other states, gun buyers must first obtain a license or permit from the state, which performs a background check before issuing the license (thus typically not requiring a duplicative background check from a gun dealer)

  Private gun sales in the US are also only exempt from background checks according to additional state laws. DN (talk) 22:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Which is exactly why we need to change the title of the article but can make "Gun show loophole" a section within the article which covers just the gun show related exemption. Iljhgtn (talk) 16:29, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  It's the other way around. Private gun sales were never subject to federal laws. If a state law didn't govern private sales then they are by default legal. States don't have to actively exempt private sales, rather states have to actively prohibit private sales (ie a "private sale" must be conducted via an FFL). Springee (talk) 22:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  As Fenharrow pointed out at NPOVN (to which I reacted poorly and have since apologized)...GSL typically refers to federal laws, Brady and FOPA in particular. Some sources may refer GSL in regard to state laws that exempt private firearm sales, but there seems to be a clear distinction between simple commerce versus laws that affect said commerce.

  • "In fact, there is no gun-show loophole as such. Federal law is silent on the issue of gun shows and permits private-party gun sales to occur anywhere. As a result, such a limited measure might well have no detectable effect on the rates of firearm-related violent crime. Gun shows account for a small percentage of all gun sales in the United States — between 4 and 9%, according to the best estimates available. Similarly, they account for just 3 to 8% of all private-party gun sales" NEJM... "GSL" is distinct from private sales of firearms.

  Cheers. DN (talk) 23:38, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  "The current article was born as a WP:POVFORK of a page away from Gun shows in the United States"

  Obviously false. DN (talk) 05:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  You have as much history with this article as anyone. Is the article supposed to be about the term or the range of things the term is used to describe or both? I don't think I would consider this topic specifically a POVFORK of the gun show topic. It's a legitimate topic by itself and would also be a legit topic if renamed PSE or similar. Springee (talk) 12:10, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  There are plenty of reliable sources about the subject, but not much in the way of describing the term. As I understand it, there is already a set of guidelines (MOS) in place that explain how we are supposed to describe the subject, as well as guidelines on how not to describe it, in order to create a "good article". Putting emphasis on describing the term versus the subject seems to give undue weight IMO. DN (talk) 20:15, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  That does depend on how we scope the article. The Climate crisis article is specifically about the term, not the state of the environment, etc. It's a perfectly reasonable way to handle this topic so long as the lead makes it clear the scope is the term and points to the location of the laws etc that are normally called GHL. However, I think that isn't really needed. We either should be clear in the opening (as the article did for almost a decade) that this is a political term vs a plain language definition. Alternatively, we give the article the plain language name and then include a section talking about the GSL name/history etc. Both should avoid any POVFORKS. You are certainly right that a POVFORK should be avoided. Springee (talk) 23:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support per NPOV. I understand that many people have a vague notion of a 'gun-show loophole' but imo it's better for that term to redirect to the suggested, and context be properly explained.Riposte97 (talk) 10:13, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Should be renamed As a minimum. There are numerous problems here. Most germane to the question of this RFC is that it is a term designed to vilify and mislead regarding the right to private transfers of firearms (sales, gifts, inheritance etc). As such it is also a misleading term because only a tiny fraction of the exercises of the right targeted by the term are related to gun shows. Which also leads to an additional problem which the current situation presents which is that it mis-informs rather that informs, which is what Wikipedia articles are supposed to do. The deeper problem not addressed here is that it is not really about a distinct topic as the term has widely varying targets. But I think that renaming of the article would solve 95% of those problems. And then the term could be covered as a term. A good example of covering a term as a term is the Gay Agenda article. This is not the place that Wikipedia that Wikipedia covers the LGBT initiatives targeted by the term Gay Agenda.....to do so would be an implicit statement by Wikipedia that all of those initiatives are Gay agenda. Instead it covers the term, the term's meaning, uses, beginnings etc.. I think that 95% of the above noted problems would be to rename this article, with the proposed name being the best I can think of without getting too lengthy to cover the legal status of private transfers in the US, and then within the article there could be a section on the GSL term.

IMO the argument to use wp:commonname to retain the current name (for the included content) is not valid for several reasons and in reality is the reverse. First, is that is misreading of wp:common name it because it flat out says "generally accepted" and that is clearly not the case. It is designed to help provide good names for articles and not intended to override the WP:NPOV policy (which using "Gun show loophole" to cover all private transfer rights certainly violates) nor override the objective of providing informative articles vs. mis-informing via the current misleading title. Next it is not a common name for any distinct topic and folks (doubly so for those outside of the US) are not going to search for the actual content of this article by the term which mis-identifies the content and so it is NOT the common name. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support. According to WP:NPOV. The naming of the article needs to be more neutral, and agreed with the general points from User:North8000 in this case. Doctorstrange617 (talk) 20:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. Some opponents of the move the title "gun show loophole" have made evidence-free assertions that nobody would find this article from a search engine, in support of the claim that the title is improper. Per Wikinav[22], 73% of visitors arrive at this article from a search engine. This article has more than 2x as many daily visitors as universal background check, per Pageviews.[23] The argument is also made that "gun show loophole" would be especially unfamiliar to people outside the US. Per MOS:ENGVAR, especially MOS:TIES, because this article is explicitly and exclusively about US law, culture, and politics, the title (and content) must reflect US usage.--MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 02:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  This article's title and lead is misleading even for an American audience. Fenharrow (talk) 04:03, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  This comment seems confusing. Opponents or proponents? DN (talk) 05:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  That was indeed an error. That's what happens when I rephrase multiple times. Thanks for catching.--MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 05:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 2 November 2024

Gun show loophole → Private gun sales (United States) – The last article move proposal had more "Support" than "Oppose" !votes, and substantial arguments behind them, but the specific title being debated did not seem to have the full weight of WP:COMMONNAME that this alternative title "Private gun sales (Unites States)" has. This title has the best Google NGRAM results out of all possible titles (including "Gun show loophole") as well as clearly delineates that the subject matter is "United States"-specific being covered. Furthermore, the "Private gun sales (United States)" title does not have the NPOV issues that "Gun show loophole" so clearly has, with extensive evidence already presented, and can be presented again, to that end. WP:COMMONNAME does allow discretion, even encourages, for us editors to use a less NPOV problematic title if another exists, and in this case the answer is for "Private gun sales (United States)" to be chosen without any doubt. This is the single best title for the subject matter of this article, even superior over the last one that was proposed that narrowly seemed to have lost out. Iljhgtn (talk) 04:51, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

"This title has the best Google NGRAM results out of all possible titles (including "Gun show loophole") To put this gently, this claim is not accurate. See WP:STICK. Cheers. DN (talk) 04:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

To reply gently, see WP:BLUDGEON and WP:OWN. Iljhgtn (talk) 05:03, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

@Darknipples. @Iljhgtn has provided links regarding the NGRAM results in the prev RM discussion. Please refrain from WP:ACCUSE. Fenharrow (talk) 05:25, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I think it's quite clear who is "accusing" who... DN (talk) 06:44, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I was responding in kind, let us get back to WP POLICY arguments please and all move on from anything even perceived to be personal. Iljhgtn (talk) 14:08, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

One week ago, there was a move request that was virtually identical to this move request, it was discussed at length, and that move request was not accepted. Please see the discussion of that move request. Note "Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page." T g7 (talk) 05:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Not contesting that at present. This is a new page move request with a new title based on that exact discussion. Iljhgtn (talk) 06:14, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

It seems to me that "Private sale of firearms in the United States" is not substantively different from "Private gun sales (United States)". So is it reasonable to consider it to be a new title? Or is it really, in essence, a repeat of the old request with slight rewording that doesn't change the meaning? T g7 (talk) 06:25, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

"Private gun sales (United States)", seem to have just as little/much to do with the federal law on background checks as "Private sale of firearms in the United States" compared to GSL. Cheers. DN (talk) 07:34, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

A new lead worded something along the lines of the following would help us to understand how precisely the term does in fact align and improves the article in nearly every way, from accuracy, to neutrality, to global improvements without regional preferences:

"Private gun sales in the United States, also called the private sale exemption and sometimes referred to as the Gun show loophole, are conducted without federal law mandating background checks in the United States for private sales of firearms by parties without a federal firearms license (FFL), including those done at gun shows. Under U.S. federal gun law, any person may sell a firearm to a federally unlicensed resident of the state where they reside, as long as they do not know or have cause to believe that the person is prohibited from possessing firearms..." Iljhgtn (talk) 14:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• Object to 2nd RM request by Iljhgtn as it seems premature and per lack of WP:CONSENSUS. DN (talk) 07:48, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Object to this move/rename request per WP:GAMENAME. This request is essentially identical to the request made eight days ago, we already had this discussion last week, and nothing has changed since then. It would be a poor use of editors' time to repeat the discussion that we had last week.

T g7 (talk) 12:04, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Support and Approve: I move for this RM to proceed and the proposed title to be subjected to the scruitny of the editors who wish to partake. While "gun show loophole" is a recognised albeit, disputed political term, it is essential that the title accurately reflects the content of the article. Those who support the status quo have not provided evidence that "gun show loophole" is a comprehensive term for the issue at hand. According to WP:DISCUSSED, the title of this article needs to be reassessed.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Fenharrow (talk • contribs) 08:43, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

You all do realise the "some time back" in the essay does not refer to ye olde days of eight hours ago, right? Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:20, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Good titles precisely identify the subject of the article, and it looks like the current one does not, since the very first sentence makes it clear that the article is about private gun sales including those at gun shows, but not limited to them. The article also states that there's disagreement over whether the phenomenon is actually a "loophole". As such, the proposed title seems more accurate and appropriate. ╠╣uw [talk] 10:43, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with you. Furthermore, objections that merely cite the preceding RM as a reason to oppose don't really address the suitability of this title; certainly not on policy. Riposte97 (talk) 11:33, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  Please consider a clear "Support" !vote then instead of just a comment of "I agree with you", last time I think part of the problem was that some comments that were clearly "Support" !votes were not counted as such due to not having the bold Support wording at the outset of the comment and clearly making it known for later tally and evaluation by the prior closer. That said, this new title proposed is far superior even, otherwise I would have challenged that close, but I think this one should see an even wider consensus emerge. Iljhgtn (talk) 14:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support There are numerous problems here. Most germane to the question of this RFC is that it is a term designed to vilify and mislead regarding the right to private transfers of firearms (sales, gifts, inheritance etc). As such it is also a misleading term because only a tiny fraction of the exercises of the right targeted by the term are related to gun shows. Which also leads to an additional problem which the current situation presents which is that it mis-informs rather that informs, which is what Wikipedia articles are supposed to do. The deeper problem not addressed here is that it is not really about a distinct topic as the term has widely varying targets. But I think that renaming of the article would solve 95% of those problems. And then the term could be covered as a term. A good example of covering a term as a term is the Gay Agenda article. This is not the place that Wikipedia that Wikipedia covers the LGBT initiatives targeted by the term Gay Agenda.....to do so would be an implicit statement by Wikipedia that all of those initiatives are Gay agenda. Instead it covers the term, the term's meaning, uses, beginnings etc.. I think that 95% of the above noted problems would be to rename this article, with the proposed name being the best I can think of without getting too lengthy to cover the legal status of private transfers in the US, and then within the article there could be a section on the GSL term.

IMO the argument to use wp:commonname to retain the current name (for the included content) is not valid for several reasons and in reality is the reverse. First, is that is misreading of wp:common name it because it flat out says "generally accepted" and that is clearly not the case. It is designed to help provide good names for articles and not intended to override the WP:NPOV policy (which using "Gun show loophole" to cover all private transfer rights certainly violates) nor override the objective of providing informative articles vs. mis-informing via the current misleading title. Next it is not a common name for any distinct topic and folks (doubly so for those outside of the US) are not going to search for the actual content of this article by the term which mis-identifies the content and so it is NOT the common name. North8000 (talk) 15:19, 2 November 2024 (UTC)